Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 4:57 PM
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 283

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Window problems (three)
From: "Kevin Creason" <>

2. Re: RE: defroster switch exploded

3. New DMC chronology information uploaded to web site
From: "Grimsrud, Knut S" <>

4. Re: My glorious return
From: Noah <>

5. Re: Ownership map
From: Jonathan Miller <>

6. Re: Silicon Water Hoses
From: "Walter" <>

7. Re: Silicon Water Hoses
From: " " <>

8. Re: Window kaput

9. AOL Chat report...

10. Motor replacement instructions?

11. Rebuilding your defroster switch.
From: "Robert Rooney" <>

12. Taken Offline?

13. Re: Ownership map
From: "Kevin Creason" <>

14. Re: Interior fan
From: "DMC Joe" <>

15. Re: Window kaput (me too)
From: "DMC Joe" <>

16. Re: rough idle
From: " " <>

17. Re: Interior fan
From: " " <>

18. Re: Motor replacement instructions?
From: " " <>

19. Re: Window problems (three)

20. Re: Concours discussion
From: "JDL" <>

21. Concours Thoughts
From: " " <>

22. Re: Window problems (three)
From: "Walter" <>

23. Re: Motor replacement instructions?
From: "Walter" <>

24. Re: My glorious return
From: "DMC Joe" <>

25. Re: Motor replacement instructions?
From: "DMC Joe" <>

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:01:21 GMT
From: "Kevin Creason" <>
Subject: Re: Window problems (three)

My passenger window works fine except after it goes all the way up. If you 
hold the button up too long it pops rather loudly like its popping the 
My driver side almost seems like it goes to low and when it goes up it 
almost gets caught by the sill.

Do I need to adjust the start/stops?
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:19:53 EST
Subject: Re: RE: defroster switch exploded

Thanks Darryl,
  I agree with you.  The car is meant to be driven and driven safely.  There 
is no better promotion of the Marque then getting these cars out there and 
having them seen at shows or just in general.  Creating interest in the car 
by it being seen, creates new enthusiasts who more often than not then become 
the next generation owners.  The more the car is promoted the more it will 
become desired among collectors, and in turn the more it will lead eventually 
to the cars value increasing.  The DeLorean is in actuality a very limited 
production automobile.  Right now there are more for sale then there are 
people looking to buy one however.  I enjoy taking my car out to events as 
much as possible and talking with people about it and hearing people say, "I 
haven't seen one of those in twenty years.  I didn't know any were still 
around."  I have also seen people so interested they start asking where to 
find one and what to look for.  I have seen a couple people become owners 
from becoming interested in the car by seeing myself or other club members at 
shows.  Concours is a nice event.  However personally I prefer to try to have 
the car look concours cosmetically, but mechanically be updated in every area 
possible where a better replacement part is available.  I believe there are 
enough cars sitting in storage already either forgotten about, neglected, or 
those who have had them for a while and are hoping they will rise in value.  
Having them seen and driven and shown helps us all to make the DeLorean worth 
more by knowledgeable owners such as ourselves promoting the marque and 
answering questions and dispelling the myths so many people think are truths 
about the DeLorean.  Everyone has the right to use their cars and treat them 
as they wish.  However if I wanted to treat my car as an artifact I would put 
it in my living room.  I much prefer getting behind the wheel and driving it, 
and knowing it isnt going to break down on me.  Hopefully :)  Just my opinion.

Gary Gore
Activities Director
DeLorean Mid Atlantic
VIN 3360


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:24:43 -0800
From: "Grimsrud, Knut S" <>
Subject: New DMC chronology information uploaded to web site

Based on data from the DOD plus recently discovered DMC records, a new DMC
production chronology has been developed and uploaded to the DMCNews web
site. You can find it at

This latest chronology includes data from some company records, including
information on all the various company cars that were assigned to the
corporate officers. In glancing through the list, I noticed that someone on
the DOD owns one of the company cars assigned to JDZ. In looking at the
updated list, you might learn something new about the history of your car as

Once again I performed some statistical analysis of the sample data
collected thus far which now represents on the order of 1400 vehicles. From
the stats, it still appears that the actual number of cars manufactured was
around 9200 rather than the commonly reported 8583.



Message: 4
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:24:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah <>
Subject: Re: My glorious return

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, DMC Joe wrote:

> To test the idle speed microswitch operation; with the engine turned off,
> have an assistant push and release the accelerator while you listen for a
> "click" back at the engine compartment. If you don't hear a click the switch
> is out of adjustment.

Ok, a click was heard. Grounding didn't affect the idle spped at all. It
was noted that the upper portion of the microswitch could be lifted,
reulting in (obviously) the lower portion dropping out from under the
lever. I assume this is normal?

> If you do hear a "click" start the engine and ground the black/green
> wire connected to the microswitch. If the idle drops to normal the
> microswitch is defective.

Given the above, I assume this means that the problem is in the ECU? Or
could it be something else? 

Thanks for the help, by the way. I do appreciate it. :)


"Where's my fruit cup?" "Behind the bison."
                        -- Kevin & Kell (Sept 22, 1995)


Message: 5
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:36:36 +0000
From: Jonathan Miller <>
Subject: Re: Ownership map

I was just wondering if the owner of the DeLorean parked in the University of Texas Arlington parking lot it on the list. I
had a friend ask me if I was the owner (because went to UTA for a short time). Maybe you could drop me a line.

-- Jonathan


Message: 6
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:38:30 -0500
From: "Walter" <>
Subject: Re: Silicon Water Hoses

I've worked with the green silicone hoses before on cooking equipment.  It's
rather expensive, but lasts practically forever.  The only problem is that I
can only get it in straight pieces.

I'm wondering how practical and reliable it would be to make curved hoses by
using small straight pieces and connecting them together with copper elbows
& such.  I've nearly had to do that before replacing hoses on some of the
modern spaghetti bowl engines.  Some of these hoses are so specialized,
expensive and hard to find that you better hope you don't break one of these
while out of town.  For example, the right angle hose that goes to the
Delorean header bottle could be made from two pieces of green silicone hose
with a copper plumbing elbow in the middle.  That gives the system two more
fittings to leak at, but considering all the others connecting to the
radiator at the front of the car, what's a few more added connections to
convert a system to use standard straight hose pieces that can be bought
almost anywhere?

I remember back in the '70s that it was considered prudent to change the
belts & hoses on any car every 5 years or 30K miles.  I remember even
hearing that advice on Motorweek.  Given that, I'm still running the
original belts & hoses on my Delorean!  I would replace them; I really would
if I only had the time!  I've had a hole new set of hoses and a brass
radiator sitting around for over a month.  But things break on that car
faster than I can fix them.  Just today my automatic transmission decided to
stop shifting out of first gear unless I'm going 40mph.  What next?

Walt    Tampa, FL


Message: 7
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:09:07 -0000
From: " " <>
Subject: Re: Silicon Water Hoses

Another major benefit in the use of silicone hoses is that they will 
not shrink ie: you will not have to retighten the hose clamps to 
prevent them from weeping as they age. A real big plus for the hoses 
behind the water pump as they cannot be reached after you install 
them. Thats why Rob Grady includes them in his master water pump 
replacment kit! Anything that you can do to upgrade the cooling system 
is a good idea, it is one of the weak points on the car besides most 
cars are still running the origional hoses.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 Yes I replaced my water pump and hoses, silicone of course!


Message: 8
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:02:26 EST
Subject: Re: Window kaput

You might also check the track and make sure it has enough grease on it. I 
had the same problem, lubed the track and the window worked perfectly. If you 
are getting a drop in the volt meter when pressing the switch and no movement 
from the window try lubing the track.
Bruce Battles
Vin 06569

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 9
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:06:16 EST
Subject: AOL Chat report...

Well, I didn't get as many people as I would have liked (I believe
there was never more than 5 or 6) but the chat lasted a couple
hours and went ok.  Some (myself, actually) were even able to get
instant online repair advice, and fix the problem while online,
which was kind of cool.  So thank you again Darren!

But I would like to see more AOL members get involved.  We decided
to try it again next Wednesday to see if we can get more to show.
Remember, Wednesday evening, 5 pm pacific, 8 eastern, in the
Special Interests catagory.  Look for "DeLorean Chat."

Hope to see you there,



Message: 10
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 00:20:24 -0000
Subject: Motor replacement instructions?

Two questions:

1) When you buy new window regulators and/or lockzilla, do you get 
concise directions on how to successfully disassemble the door to get 
at these components...and

2) How hard are these procedures? Can a guy with only average or 
minimal mechanical skills accomplish this without screwing up a bunch 
of stuff or breaking anything?

VIN 3092


Message: 11
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:11:07 -0000
From: "Robert Rooney" <>
Subject: Rebuilding your defroster switch.

A while back I found a .pdf file containing instructions on how to 
rebuild the defroster switch. As someone who has done it w/o 
instructions, you'll need a bit of patience. But it's not an 
impossible task. I just finished uploading the file to the vault.

vin 6585


Message: 12
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 13:58:25 -0000
Subject: Taken Offline?

Dear DMLers,
Has anyone else noticed that and 
will not load?  Could this be because they are getting revised or 
revamped, just as had been.  I visited the site last 
night and it loaded, yet today it won't.  Does anyone have any info 
on this site and what's going on.  (psssst: it is owned by "John 
DeLorean from a PO Box in Scottsdale Arizona, while is 
from mesa, arizona...which we all know is owned by James Espey).  So 
any info, questions, or if you are just confused, please respond.
Chris Miller


Message: 13
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:54:12 GMT
From: "Kevin Creason" <>
Subject: Re: Ownership map

I spent the last 25 years in Alaska. I know there are a couple. Don't know 
who, where (Anchorage, probably), or what VIN though....
I saw one painted red, and another at a car lot a few years ago. Anyone know 
what dealer sold to Alaska? Probably Seattle area.

First thing I did when I got to Houston a <two months ago was start looking. 
Paid off, too!!

>From: James Espey <>
>Not quite the same, but similar for DeLoreans exists at:
>Another by-product of the the DeLorean Owners Directory through the
>efforts of Knut Grimsrud!!!
> >There is a REALLY cool map of Bricklin ownership at:


Message: 14
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:35:12 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: Interior fan

Your problem is probably caused by a defective fan speed switch, an open
winding in the motor, or a bad 12v feed to the motor.

"We're here to help you"

DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <>
Web Site: <>

----- Original Message -----
From: Willie Mack <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:09 PM
Subject: [DML] Interior fan

> Hey guys...i have developed another problem.  My interior fan has stopped
> working.  It doesn't work on any of the speeds.  What could be the
> Thanks
>   Willie
>   Vin 5043


Message: 15
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:38:09 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: Window kaput (me too)

If the window was off the track it would still move up and down. Your
problem is most likely due to a detached cable caused by a broken cable
guide. This is the most common cause of window motor failures.

"We're here to help you"

DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <>
Web Site: <>

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:01 PM
Subject: [DML] Window kaput (me too)

> Hey
> Actually, on the driver's side we do hear motor sound, but it doesn't
> We just figured it was off track and that is the next "project" on the
> DeLorean we are going to endeavor. I may be asking about it later...
> John Feldman
> VIN 4275


Message: 16
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:24:36 -0000
From: " " <>
Subject: Re: rough idle

For the idle first check that the idle switch is working when the 
throttle spool hits it (check with a meter). Make sure that the 3 
screws on the intake are lightly screwed all the way in. Next make 
sure there is power to the lambda circuit, the most common failure is 
a bad lambda relay. Check all of the inputs to the lambda computer and 
connections to the frequency valve. Gas mileage for the automatic is 
less than for the 5 speed. On my most recent trip to Rhode Island it 
was mostly highway driving and I got about 20 mpg. City driving is 
probably about 16-17. If the idle is still rough you probably will 
wind up replacing the plugs and ignition wires. You might also have a 
dirty injector, If they are all not putting out a good spray and the 
same amount the engine will not run smooth at idle but will get 
smoother as the rpm's increase.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, "Jeff Angwin" <jeff_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> It runs well except that at idle it's rough. It starts just fine, 
but the idle RPM's fluctuate between 600 and 1000, every second or so. 
> Jeff
> VIN 3034


Message: 17
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:11:10 -0000
From: " " <>
Subject: Re: Interior fan

Things to check in order of likelyhood of failure:
1- circuit breaker, (make sure it has been upgraded to 30 amps)
2- fan motor, check for continuity and ground, also see if there is 
power there when turned on.
3- mode switch
4- fan speed relays (least likely because they wouldn't all be bad).
 1 and 2 are the most likely but don't overlook the obvious like a 
wire that broke or a connecter that fell off. Overheated wires by the 
fuse panel are a sure sign of problems.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

> > Hey guys...i have developed another problem.  My interior fan has 
> > working.  It doesn't work on any of the speeds.  What could be the
> culprit?
> >
> > Thanks
> >   Willie
> >   Vin 5043


Message: 18
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:16:45 -0000
From: " " <>
Subject: Re: Motor replacement instructions?

Installing a Lockzilla is very easy and the directions are excellent.
When you get to the window motors it is a little more complicated, 
mostly in getting access inside. If you are very careful you could do 
it with some coaching. A word of warning, the edges of the metal 
inside the doors are VERY sharp. Covering the edges with masking or 
duct tape will save you alot of band-aids.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


Message: 19
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:15:31 EST
Subject: Re: Window problems (three)

When your window reaches the top or bottom let go of the up-down button. New 
cars have a safety switch to shut off the window motor at the up or down 
stop.  Delorean doe's not, if you continue to hold the button down you will 
break the plastic shaft and gears running the whole works and be out several 
bucks (A LOT) to repair them. Just a helpful hint. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 20
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:58:55 -0500
From: "JDL" <>
Subject: Re: Concours discussion

Kind of curious.  DMC Houston is selling "new" DeLoreans.  How do these
"new" cars rate in a concours competition?

David Levey

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Espey" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:28 PM
Subject: [DML] Concours discussion


Message: 21
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:38:50 -0000
From: " " <>
Subject: Concours Thoughts

Having a concours can only help legitimize the car. All of the major 
clubs and car Marques have them and it can only help to raise the 
values of the cars. Irrespective of the disagrements about the rules 
it will make the cars more appealing to collecters as a standard to 
judge the cars against. As the top cars go up in value so will all 
that are in "good" condition, the trickle down effect. Also some 
people like to participate in that manner just as some like to have 
road rallys. There are many different levels of enjoyment to these 
cars and some people prefer to have a concours. It is no small 
investment in money and time to even be able to compete.In Cleavland 
they were trying for 15 concours cars to judge got 6 and only 4 were 
real contenders. The effort put into judging them was intense not just 
in examining the cars but in tabulating and everything else. Remember 
the judges were all volunteers who spent most of the day doing it with 
no time to enjoy the show for very little thanks. DMC houston also had 
expenses with preparing the judging manual, the time spent helping the 
judges, phone calls, mailings, etc. I think instead of picking the 
concours apart for it's faults more people should get involved to help 
improve it and maybe help judge.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


Message: 22
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:38:54 -0500
From: "Walter" <>
Subject: Re: Window problems (three)

I know exactly what you mean!  How you fix this depends on whether or not
you have the heavy duty motor installed.

I'm assuming that you already have the heavy duty motor installed, because
mine did the same thing.  If I roll the window up all the way, it makes a
jack hammer sound like the clutch on a cordless power drill.  When I roll it
down all the way, the window travels farther than it needs to.

I saw a fix for this on someone's web site.  I don't remember who it was
except for he is a list member and is in Europe somewhere.

Basically, the situation is that at least some of the aftermarket heavy duty
motors have a design flaw.  The tube assemblies on them were made too short
and now they have to reach too far to get to the window glass.  When you
roll the window down all the way, it goes too far down.  And when you roll
it up all the way, the flexible cable is too short and leaves the sprocket
gear that drives it.  The ratcheting sound you hear comes from the sprocket
gear teeth slipping on the end of the drive cable.

To fix this, make an extension piece to fit the end of the cable.  Use a
swatch of sheet metal about an inch square.  Drill two holes in one end
(that match the top of the window motor assembly) and drill two more holes
on the other end to match the studs on the bottom of the window glass.  I
also used two 1/4-20 bolts, nuts & lockwashers to connect the swatch to the
end of the drive cable.  Be careful that the new nuts & bolts are positioned
so that they don't catch on the top of the tube when you lower the window.

This solves both problems: It effectively makes the drive cable longer so
that it doesn't slip past the drive gear, and it also stops the window glass
from lowering too far into the door.

I made this modification to a heavy duty window motor that came with my car.
I didn't know it was the heavy duty model because I assumed that all heavy
duty motors didn't have problems.  Well, think again.  When it completely
quit working, I was ready to replace it with a heavy duty model only to find
out that it already was the heavy duty model.  Enough water got inside of
the new motor that it rusted it up and ruined it.  Fortunately, I was able
to buy a used motor and keep the rest of the heavy duty assembly.

This brings up another very important caveat:  When you install the heavy
duty motor, BE SURE TO REMOVE THE DRAIN PLUG!  That is why my motor went
bad.  These Bosch motors come with little plastic drain plugs.  You are
supposed to remove whichever plug ends up on the bottom of the assembly.
Otherwise, if water gets inside the motor, it won't come out.  Keep the plug
installed on the top to help keep water out of the motor.

I may get a bit wordy at times, but I think my advice is worth following.

Walt    Tampa, FL


Message: 23
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:39:23 -0500
From: "Walter" <>
Subject: Re: Motor replacement instructions?

I bought a window motor from DMC Joe and no directions came with it.  But I
had just got through spending the day with him learning first hand how to
install them, so maybe giving me an instruction sheet would have been

As for the Lockzilla, it comes with very easy to follow instructions.  I
highly recommend using one, but I think the 'hand shaking' between the
Lockzilla and the Lockzilla remote control option could use some refinement.
I would prefer that it unlock just the driver's door with the first press on
the remote and then unlock both doors with the second press.  The system has
a 'flaw' in it where if one of the door locks get out of sync with the other
(i.e. one locked, the other unlocked) then the remote quits working.  The
instructions get real pointed about that it's your fault for having
bad/stiff lock solenoids rather than building the lock module around being
able to give a second jolt to a marginal solenoid to get it to move.

I would prefer the system to work like it does on modern GM cars.  The first
press of the button unlocks the driver's door.  A second press unlocks the
rest of the doors, and (VERY IMPORTANT) subsequent presses gives all the
locks a second chance to move if they didn't the first time around.  Are you
reading this Mr. Zilla engineer? :)

As for replacing the window motor... It's a big job the first time you try
it.  The major caveats I can mention:

1) don't damage the door panel taking it off.  The door panel comes off in
two pieces.  The top half comes off first, and you need a trim removing tool
to do it without damaging it.  Get the right tool before you get into it.

2) The metal edges of the inner door are VERY sharp.  I had cuts all over
the back of my hand before I realized it.  Part of my life blood has become
part of that car in more ways than one.  Before you even stick you hand in
the door, cover the edges with duct tape.  Or better yet (as I did) get a
file and dremmel tool to smooth the sharp edges off.  After all... these
cars (or at least parts of them) should be in use until the end of the
world.  You might as well make it easier on the next generation to work on

3) I absolutely could not get the window motor through that small hole in
one piece.  I ended up taking the motor off of the gear/tube assembly to get
it in the door.  Once in the door, I put it back together with a little red
organic Loc-tite (okay, it was blood. -- watch those sharp edges.)

4) To keep the door in a manageable position while you work inside of it,
use a length of light chain with hooks on the ends.  Hook one end inside the
door and wrap the other end around the rear door post.  If you do it right,
you can easily adjust the position of the door to make it easier to work on.
The door sill makes a good place to sit while you work.

5) This is a repeat of the last paragraph of my previous message, but I
cannot over emphasize the importance:  When you install the heavy duty
motor, BE SURE TO REMOVE THE DRAIN PLUG!  That is why my motor went bad.
These Bosch motors come with little plastic drain plugs.  You are supposed
to remove whichever plug ends up on the bottom of the assembly.  Otherwise,
if water gets inside the motor, it won't come out.  Keep the plug installed
on the top to help keep water out of the motor.

Hope this helps,
Walt    Tampa, FL


Message: 24
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:56:49 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: My glorious return


You said: "the upper portion of the microswitch could be lifted, resulting
in (obviously) the lower portion dropping out from under thelever. I assume
this is normal?"

No; this is not normal. Your idle speed microswitch is defective.

"We're here to help you"

DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <>
Web Site: <>


Message: 25
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:08:53 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: Motor replacement instructions?


Unfortunately the directions you receive with the window motors is vague
with no diagrams. To make matters worse the new units have a different
mounting arrangement than the originals. I would not recommend that this
procedure be attempted by anyone who has not successfully completed the
installation previously.

Any regulators purchased from us include live tech support, never the less,
I still recommend installation only to qualified individuals.

PS: the window regulator installation procedure is among the titles of our
upcoming DSV Video Repair series scheduled to be released early next year.

"We're here to help you"

DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <>
Web Site: <>