From: dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 2:07 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 315

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There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Fuse block (was Fuses)
From: "Ben Maxwell" <ben_at_dml_benmaxwell.com>

2. Re: Re: Fuses
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

3. Re: Fuses
From: "John Hervey" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>

4. Eagle Premier 3 Litre engine
From: Darryl Tinnerstet <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>

5. Re: Stainless Repair
From: "Erik Geerdink" <delorean502_at_dml_excite.com>

6. Re: Stainless Repair
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

7. PALM SPRINGS LIGHT PARADE
From: goin88mph_at_dml_aol.com

8. Re: Stiff brake pedal
From: "jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net " <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

9. Volvo...
From: "Nathan E. Green" <gzen21_at_dml_excite.com>

10. Re: Volvo...
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter_at_dml_jurai.net>

11. Re: Fuses
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

12. Door lock module contributing to battery drain
From: "Grimsrud, Knut S" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>

13. Re: PALM SPRINGS LIGHT PARADE
From: Henry Breer <hbreer_at_dml_ix.netcom.com>

14. Re: Wanted: one or two power window console switches
From: Trevor L Johnson <comet4055_at_dml_juno.com>





Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:20:43 -0000
From: "Ben Maxwell" <ben_at_dml_benmaxwell.com>
Subject: Fuse block (was Fuses)

In mine, the fuse block has melted in two places, where the fuses are 
connected much like the fan fail fix...

I'd love to eventually clean that area up, and get a new block and 
harness, but would hate to have it meltdown again-- is there an 
alternative fuse box out there?

-ben
06976



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> It's not the fuse itself that is the source of the heat so much as 
it is the
> poor connection to the fuse.  If you want to reduce your chances of 
a
> melt-down, use a heavier duty style of fuse & fuse holder with the 
original
> 20 amp rating.
> 
> The Delorean engineers thought they could get away with using a fuse 
&
> holder rated at 20 amps that was meant for a low duty cycle and 
instead they
> used it for a high or even continuous duty cycle situation (as in 
the case
> with the headlight high beams which causes another melted spot on 
the fuse
> block.)  Either you need to take apart and clean the contacts 
periodically
> and hope it doesn't melt down despite your efforts or else replace 
it with a
> reasonable design that does not require this sort of maintenance.
> 
> Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:27:16 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Fuses

Jim,

The No. 7 fuse circuit, which protects several items in both the fuel
delivery and emissions circuits, has a design flaw that causes the fuse and
fuse holder connection to overheat. If not routinely maintained meltdown of
this component is eminent.

I suggest one simple and inexpensive fix; install a heavy duty fuse holder
and fuse to substitute for the factory design. A heavy duty fuse holder and
solid electrical connections are necessary to ensure a reliable and trouble
free circuit.

"We're here to help you"

Seasons Greetings!
DMC Joe
dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net

DMC Help / <dmchelp_at_dml_att.net>
Web Site: <www.deloreanservices.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Reeve <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 11:41 AM
Subject: [DML] Re: Fuses


> This leaves me with a curious question.  I know that fuse #7 (20amp)
> has a tendency to melt in a lot of cars.  I even had the unfortunate
> experience of rideing in a D when it's #7 did the same thing.
> However, the previous owner of my D replaced the 20amp fuse in #7
> with a 10amp.  I have felt this fuse after driving and it was warm,
> but not hot.  So far I have driven the car for 3 months about about
> 4000 miles without a problem.  The car is in storage now, but should
> I replace the #7 with a 20amp or leave it at the 10amp?  I am just
> thinking I could prevent a melt and just let it blow if the power
> flow gets too high.  What do you think?
>
> Jim Reeve
> -6960





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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 05:18:04 -0000
From: "John Hervey" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fuses

David & Group, 
I agree with you in most case of fuses, But remember. The fuse is 
supposed to be the weakest link in the system to stop futher damage 
to circuts, burning up wires or protecting sensitive items. There is 
a reason the fuse may heat up and melt and not blow, but putting in a 
larger fuse, well you might as well just hard wire it and forget the 
fuse. I case of the cooling fans in the De Lorean, I see 20amp fuses 
all the time and thats to much. If the motors are in good running 
order then a 15Amp fuse will work just fine. It will handle the 
inrush current and run normally at room or car temp. If 20 amp fuses 
are used, then you stand a chance of burning up wires in the motor 
and creating more damage due to the overheating wires and  melting 
wires in the motor circut. The larger fuse acts as a heat sink and 
absorbs the heat of the overload instead of reaching the blowing 
state. The damage will also extend to the wires it's laying next to 
if the plastic melts. I have put current meters in each circut and on 
my car at 45,000 miles the fans pull about 14 amps ea. So I fuse with 
15 amp fuses. ATO & ATC fuses the De Lorean car was designed for by 
the current chart at 15 amps will handle 20 amps for 1 sec under 
normal conditions. As temperature in the compartment goes up then 
current goes down. 
Last but not least, I have been asked several times how to judge the 
current size. With out the current meters. Then put in a low current 
and go up till it stops to blow. Then stop there. If ( Big IF ) the 
ambient temperature go up then current goes down, it may need to be 
adjusted in heat. I also leave the cover off the fuses in the De 
Lorean to help get rid of heat. 
John Hervey     





> Having just done some electrical work on several "old" cars I have 
> noticed something worth mentioning. I found that many of the fuses 
> were not in the correct places or were just the wrong size. 
Sometimes 
> all that is required is to just move them into the correct 
positions 
> but I have also seen all replaced without regard to the correct 
> values. In some cases the fuses are too small but in most they were 
> too big. DMC Joe has a fuse layout or you can look in the owner's 
> manual or workshop manual. I think it would be a very cheap form of 
> insurance to make sure that the proper size fuse is in the proper 
> position. It would also be a good idea to keep an assortment so you 
> can always replace a blown fuse with one that is correct. While you 
> are in the fuse area behind the passanger seat make sure that the 
> blower fan and cooling fan circuit breakers have been replaced with 
> the correct bigger ones and that all of the wires do not look 
> overheated. If you still have the jumper wire for the cooling fan 
> relay carefully examine it for signs of overheating. There have 
been 
> cases of electrical fires so it is an area of concern.Many people
> have 
> had their hands in the cars over the years and sometimes they 
didn't 
> always know what they were doing. If you aren't an origional owner 
> (not many of us are) then you don't know who did what.This is an 
> excellent winter project and you don't have to be a mechanic to 
check 
> this area.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757




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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:23:18 -0700
From: Darryl Tinnerstet <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>
Subject: Eagle Premier 3 Litre engine

At the risk of starting a new thread of endless speculation by folks who
really shouldn't, I'd like to report on a sucessful transplant recently done
in Seattle of an Eagle Premier 3 litre engine into a DeLorean.  It was done
by a professional import shop with extensive experience in repairing and
racing the PRV.  The DMC crankcase was used in order to provide the correct
motor mounts, along with the oil pan.  The 5 speed trans bolted right up, as
did the stock exhaust.  There were no modifications to the crankshaft.  The
DMC rocker covers did not fit on the Eagle heads, which necessitated
extensive adaption in order to use the stock A/C, alternator, etc.  The
owner also opted to go with an aftermarket Electromotive ignition and
electronic fuel injection setup, although I understand the Eagle parts could
probably have been made to work.  The undersized Eagle throttle body was
replaced by the larger Volvo B-280 unit.  The car has an estimated 170 HP
and considerably improved performance.  It was an expensive conversion, but
the owner seems quite pleased with the results.  If anyone is interested in
additional information they can contact the person who did the work:

John Lane
Pacific Rim Automotive
PH: 206-632-1175

I have photos in my camera which I will try to post whenever they find their
way out.  Maybe in the meantime someone with a digital camera, or the car
owner, will come forward with some.

-- 
Darryl Tinnerstet
Specialty Automotive
McCleary, WA




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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 05:59:22 -0000
From: "Erik Geerdink" <delorean502_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: Re: Stainless Repair

Dan Pfieffer in Grand Rapids Michigan does an excellent job with 
Stainless Steel repair.  They were a HUGE seller of Delorean back 
when they were still being made.  They have all the right equipment 
and the skills to make your dents disappear.  If you are interested 
in having them do the work on your car and would like someone to go 
with you, or to find information out for you, let me know.  I live 20 
min away.

Erik Geerdink
4512



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, Josh Haldeman <jhaldeman_at_dml_f...> wrote:
> Joe,
>     Any chance you could recommend a good stainless repair 
specialist,
> or at
> least a category of professionals to explore?  Other than a DeLorean
> specific
> specialist, I can't seem to find anyone in my area who will even 
come
> within ten
> yards of the car.
>     Thanks in advance,
>     Josh
>     VIN 5102
>     VIN 15964
> 
> 
> 
> DMC Joe wrote:
> 
> > Matt,
> >
> > You are correct, minor dents are easily repairable by a stainless
> repair
> > specialist.
> >
> > "We're here to help you"
> >
> > DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <dmchelp_at_dml_a...>
> > Web Site: <www.deloreanservices.com>




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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:14:03 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Stainless Repair

Josh,

The most cost effective solution is to first take a couple of photo's of the
damaged area than send them to your favorite DeLorean stainless repair
facility, we routinely use the services if DMC Houston. You will receive a
response concerning reparability and price. All that is left is to remove
the damaged panel and ship it out for repair.

"We're here to help you"
Seasons Greetings!

DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <dmchelp_at_dml_att.net>
Web Site: <www.deloreanservices.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Haldeman <jhaldeman_at_dml_fisherdesign.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:15 PM
Subject: [DML] Stainless Repair


> Joe,
>     Any chance you could recommend a good stainless repair specialist,
> or at
> least a category of professionals to explore?  Other than a DeLorean
> specific
> specialist, I can't seem to find anyone in my area who will even come
> within ten
> yards of the car.
>     Thanks in advance,
>     Josh
>     VIN 5102
>     VIN 15964





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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:46:27 EST
From: goin88mph_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: PALM SPRINGS LIGHT PARADE

what time  will the palm springs light parade start, and i was just checking 
to see if it is still on the DEC 2,  saturday?,    thanx

 jay



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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:00:31 -0000
From: "jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net " <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Stiff brake pedal

The first thing to do is to flush the system with fresh Castrol GTLMA 
dot 4 brake fluid. The symptom is probably caused by contaminated 
brake fluid. After braking the fluid gets hot, boils, and "fights" 
back to cause the pedal to rise. After cooling things get back to 
normal until you use the brakes again and reheat the fluid.If you
have 
a 5 speed also do the clutch system. On your second question I think 
you need to have the fender just so you have the marker light besides 
you would be very dangerous to pedestrians and in the rain you would 
throw up alot of spray making it hard to see.You might also throw 
small rocks.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, Delorean17_at_dml_a... wrote:
> Hello List,
>     When I drive my car the brake pedal does not go down as far as 
it it 
> should after about 5 minutes of driving. (moves only about an inch 
to come to 
> a complete stop.)  Then at the next stop it will be fine again and 
move like 
> it should, then the problem might come back a little bit later on 
the drive.  
> Any ideas on what this could be?  The brake fluid is full and looks 
fairly 
> clean.  Is it safe to drive the car this way?  
>     also, is it legal to drive a car without a front fender?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> David




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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 05:49:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Nathan E. Green" <gzen21_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: Volvo...


On 30 Nov 2000 08:06:25 -0000, dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com wrote:


>  Message: 10
>     Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:02:45 -0500
>     From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
>  Subject: Need water pump info
>  
>  I want to replace the water pump on my D and am curious to know which is
the
>  best way to go.  It seems to be a choice between one that has a
pressed-on
>  pulley similar to the original vs. getting a Volvo pump that uses a
bolt-on
>  pulley.

Walt, 
   THe previous owner put a Volvo water pump on my Delorean. Not sure if it
is the same one you're talking about, but it has a second grove on the out
side(for a second belt to an accesory). I guess in some applications, the
water pump(not the camshaft) drives the A/c or Alternator in a version of
the B28 engine.
   Anyways, if this pulley is the one you are considering, let me caution
you. THe second grove sometimes contacts the A/C belt. Thus, I have a little
groove in the A/C belt. I'm not sure if this will affect the durability,
since it only contacts intermittantly and I'll probably replace the belt
long before it breaks. I just put the belt on this summer and at least
intially, it works fine. Just something to consider, b/c there's not a lot
of room down around the water pump. BTW, the water pump works great. Car
stays cold, even on the hottest days with very little help from the electric
fans.

Nate



Nathan E. Green
gzen21_at_dml_excite.com

"If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88mph you're gonna' see
some serious s--t"
-Doc Brown: "Back to the Future"





_______________________________________________________
Tired of slow Internet? Get _at_dml_Home Broadband Internet
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html




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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:13:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter_at_dml_jurai.net>
Subject: Re: Volvo...

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Nathan E. Green wrote:
> THe previous owner put a Volvo water pump on my Delorean. Not sure if
> it is the same one you're talking about, but it has a second grove on
> the out side(for a second belt to an accesory). I guess in some
> applications, the water pump(not the camshaft) drives the A/c or
> Alternator in a version of the B28 engine.

No, the B28 probably has dual waterpump/alternator belts like its B23
half-cousins.  (Remember, Volvo is a -safe- car; throwing a belt and being
stranded on the side of a road isn't safe.)

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter_at_dml_jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |




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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:56:38 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Fuses

In response to John Hervey's post,

The current feeding the radiator fans in the Delorean are NOT fused through
the fuse block!  Why are you confusing us?

If all the devices feeding through the 20 amp fuses in the Delorean are
running properly, then putting a 15 amp fuse in place of any of these will
cause the fuse block to run ever so slightly hotter.  This is only because
the smaller fuse element will have more restriction to current flow
producing more heat.

This is a difficult concept to get across to people without an electronics
background, but I'll give it a shot:  The reason why there are melt-downs in
the Delorean fuse block is because the connections to the fuses are too
small.  This has nothing to do with the current ratings of the fuses.  A
different style of fuse holder is a good tempory fix and creates job
security for your mechanic, but replacing the fuse holder with one that
takes a heaveir duty style of fuse solves this problem.

Good engineering practices suggest fusing circuits at 75 to 80% of the
normal running load.  For example, if you have a radiator fan that draws the
14 amps that you measured, then 75 to 80% capacity of a 20 amp fuse would be
15 to 16 amps -- a tad much maybe, but still a good choice.  For a 15 amp
fuse, 75 to 80% of that would be 11.25 to 12 amps, which is not enough  You
need to take into consideration that the fans draw a surge when they come
on.

HOWEVER, there are no fuses protecting the radiator fans!  They use an
under-rated 35 amp thermal switch which is routinely replaced with a 40 amp
version recommended by most of the major Delorean suppliers.  If you do
anything to starve the radiator fans for current, then you will cause them
to run hotter.

Walt    Tampa, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: John Hervey <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: [DML] Re: Fuses


>fuse. I case of the cooling fans in the De Lorean, I see 20amp fuses
>all the time and thats to much. If the motors are in good running
>order then a 15Amp fuse will work just fine. It will handle the
>inrush current and run normally at room or car temp. If 20 amp fuses
>are used, then you stand a chance of burning up wires in the motor
>and creating more damage due to the overheating wires and  melting
>wires in the motor circut.





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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:35:19 -0800
From: "Grimsrud, Knut S" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>
Subject: Door lock module contributing to battery drain

Because I have a daily driver DeLorean in addition to my new one that I'm
restoring, my good DMC doesn't get out much during these rainy winter months
(I'm in Oregon, so it gets pretty sloppy around here this time of year).
I've been a little curious about the gradual battery discharge that our cars
seem to be so susceptible to, so I did a little investgating last weekend.

It is well known that the console clock and radio consume a trickle of
current. However, when pulling the radio fuse there is still a slight power
drain (at least on my cars). In fact, after pulling all the fuses my cars
still have a power drain from the batter of around 11mA. This isn't very
much, but is sufficient to slowly degrade a battery over time.

In trying to track down this power trickle, what I found was that the door
lock module on my car draws the additional 11mA of current. I haven't
disassembled or reverse-engineered the module yet to understand why it draws
a trickle current, but it appears to do so. I'm not sure if the LockZilla
similarly draws a trickle current as I only have stock door lock modules in
my cars.

If you suffer from inexplicable battery drain for a car that's stored for
periods, the door lock module appears to be one of the contributors to the
problem. I still need to recheck my measurements this weekend, but it
appears that removing the clock/radio fuse and unplugging the door lock
module may be sufficient to avoid battery drain without the need for
installation of battery cutoff switches, trickle chargers, etc.

		Knut





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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:51:27 -0800
From: Henry Breer <hbreer_at_dml_ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PALM SPRINGS LIGHT PARADE

Jay,

The Parade is still definitely still on.  It is this Saturday, Dec 2,
beginning at 5:45PM.

Nine DeLoreans should be meeting in the parking lot of the Motel 6 at
660 S Palm Canyon Dr 'bout 1:00 PM. (Careful, there are 2 Motel 6's in
PS. The other one is about a mile further south at 595 E Palm Canyon
Dr).  The Parade itself starts at 5:45 (after dark).  Since the staging
area is almost directly in front of the Motel, we have been told that we
probably won't have to move until it starts. The DeLoreans are #92 in
line so we probably won't be on the move until around 6:30.

Dinner reservations are for 8:00 after the Parade and award ceremony at
the Rock Garden Cafe.

Hope to see you (and anyone else who wants to see 9 DeLoreans decorated
with white Christmas lights).

Hank Breer
VIN 1141

goin88mph_at_dml_aol.com wrote:
> 
> what time  will the palm springs light parade start, and i was just checking
> to see if it is still on the DEC 2,  saturday?,    thanx
> 
>  jay



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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:24:50 -0800
From: Trevor L Johnson <comet4055_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted: one or two power window console switches

just buy new ones... The stencil is nice, but... its very difficult to
line them up, and once they're on they're on. Also the original ones are
silkscreen I believe, after doing the switches in one of our cars, and
deciding that they looked pretty bad (the paint in no way matched the
defroster) and the fact that the arrows were just not perfectly straight
made me opt to buy a new set. Its a nice product, just hard, in my
opinion, to make it look like the switches should.
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