From: dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 5:49 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 341

Before posting messages or replies, see the posting policy rules at:
www.dmcnews.com/Admin/rules.html

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Torque settings
From: "gwells" <gwells_at_dml_totalise.co.uk>

2. Holiday Greetings
From: "Stian Birkeland" <dmc_norway_at_dml_hotmail.com>

3. Re: At what point does a DeLorean become salvage.
From: William T Wilson <fluffy_at_dml_snurgle.org>

4. The Fuel Pump Fix
From: "John Hervey" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>

5. Re: At what point does a DeLorean become salvage.
From: "Knut Grimsrud" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>

6. Re: Torque settings
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

7. Re: At what point does a DeLorean become salvage.
From: "Dave Stragand" <dave.stragand_at_dml_ketchum.com>

8. Re: Manual update (was Torque settings)
From: "Dave Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>

9. Courtesy Light Switch Replacement
From: David Sontos <dsontos_at_dml_sybercom.net>

10. Need headlight switch spring
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

11. Who's Delorean Was It?
From: "Scot Stern" <SGSKBM_at_dml_aol.com>

12. fender writing
From: Aaron Posey <cadysrme_at_dml_yahoo.com>

13. Thanks
From: abatt10347_at_dml_aol.com





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:53:23 -0000
From: "gwells" <gwells_at_dml_totalise.co.uk>
Subject: Torque settings

Happy Christmas and a successful New Year to everyone.

I have one little question to which I need an answer as soon as possible
if anyone feels able to help.

I have the engine and gearbox out at the moment and I am about to
reinstall them. However I cannot be sure what the  torque  setting
should be for the 4 bolts that attach the transmission clutch housing to
the engine. My manual gives a setting for the clutch housing to engine
shield of 14lbs/ft Is this the setting (it seems lower than I would have
expected)
There does not seem to be  any other setting that comes near the
description I would give for the bolts.
I am hoping to replace the engine in the car today so any speedy
response would be welcome.

Graham UK

VIN 17152




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:12:43
From: "Stian Birkeland" <dmc_norway_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Holiday Greetings


On behalf of all the DeLorean owners here in Norway, I'd like to take the 
opportunity to wish everyone on this list, owners and enthusiasts, a Merry 
Christmas and a Happy New Year!

As we soon enter 2001 rememember that this year is our beloved car's 20th 
Anniversary!

Sincerely;

Mr. Stian Birkeland
- Proud DeLorean Owner -
Norway

VIN # 06759
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 03:52:32 -0500 (EST)
From: William T Wilson <fluffy_at_dml_snurgle.org>
Subject: Re: At what point does a DeLorean become salvage.

On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 garyg_at_dml_lucent.com wrote:

> price to $5000, but I suspect that I could get him to go lower.
> As for the car, it needs a lot of work.  Currently it isn't running.

I would treat this DeLorean as a "poorly stored" car and do the usual fuel
system overhaul.  After that it would probably run fine.  Cost for this is
a couple hundred dollars, if you do the work yourself, mostly in rubber
nubs and other soft parts.

DeLoreans aren't really prone to transmission problems, other than the
auto trans computer; but that is a problem which will not be caused or
made worse by sitting in a junkyard.  If you believe him about the engine
being in good shape, then things are good.

> He said that the car was running about six months ago, but that the 
> fuel pump has gone out.  Regardless of whether this is true or not, 

Maybe the inertia switch is tripped.  It can fool an inexperienced
user.  But don't try to un-trip it before you buy the car, or the price
will go up :}

> the transmission.  The car's interior is in pretty bad shape.  The 
> driver's side door does not open and close properly.  It looks like 

This is probably the worst part.  Interior parts are expensive, and (to
me, anyway) annoying to work with in general.  If the door is damaged,
repairs are possible but probably would require the attentions of a
specialist, or at least someone familiar with door repairs.  If it is
actually damaged or bent, you will need help; if it's just out of
alignment, you can probably fix that yourself if you are careful.

> someone may have forced it closed at some point.  The passenger side 
> door opens, but does not stay open.  The windshield is cracked and 

Neither of these is a problem.  Windshields are available and the
passenger side door is probably only in need of a new strut.

> dent, but other than that they look pretty good.  So, I guess my
> question is at what point does a DeLorean become a write off or at
> least a seriously bad investment.  I'm looking for a car needing some

Well, there are people here who have repaired cars with frames broken in
half, submerged in lakes for years, and completely disassembled into parts
(not all on the same car, though), so I guess the answer might be, maybe
if it's been in the crusher. :}

My question would probably be how it *got* into the junkyard.  Does it
have a salvage title?




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:50:25 -0000
From: "John Hervey" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: The Fuel Pump Fix

Group, I have segregated the fuel pump to it's own relay so to take 
the load off the RPM Relay and #7 fuse which is a melter. I snaped in 
or mounted another relay socket to the end of the back row and ran 
the wires to the appropriate places,( Looks factory ). First I fused 
it with a 5amp fuse and it blew then a 7.5 amp and it held. 
Walt, how about that for engineering. Didn't want to take the time 
for amp meter. Guess what it will be called,,, The Fuel Pump Fix. I 
can make it plug and play or if your handy with the soldering iron 
and heat shrink, I can do it that way. If your intrested in the kit 
please email me direct, dherv10_at_dml_aol.com and when I get the digital 
camera for Christmas, I will put it on the web site as soon as I get 
time.www.specialTauto.com. I haven't come up with a price yet, but as 
you know it won't be that expensive.
John Hervey
11004,6935,6568
    




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:46:16 -0800
From: "Knut Grimsrud" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>
Subject: Re: At what point does a DeLorean become salvage.

In my view, the DeLorean (or any other car for that matter) becomes salvage
when the cost to fix it up is more than the cost of purchasing an
equivalently fixed up car already. In other words, if you can buy a DMC
carcass for $4000 and it takes you $10K to fix it up and you're left with a
car that could be bought for less than $14K then the car was salvage.

The notion of getting a cheap DMC by purchasing a junker and fixing it up is
ill advised. With the current prices for DeLoreans, I have rarely seen cases
where this pans out (even if one does not include the cost of labor by doing
the work themselves). There are cases, however, where the notion of fixing
up a DMC is appropriate and of great value, but not in terms of monetary
value -- for example, some of us really enjoy working on these great cars
and feel great satisfaction in doing such restorations. Such works of love
have their own rewards that are not monetary and the work is an ends in
itself.

First-time owners that may not be very familiar with the peculiarities of
these wonderful cars are probably also in the worst position to carry out
such projects, and in some cases it is easy to overestimate one's mechanical
capabilities in successfully and effectiively doing major mechanical and
cosmetic restoration projects.

My suggestion is to buy a car that needs work if your objective is to do the
restoration work because you enjoy the work itself. If your objective is to
get a good DeLorean, then I think most people would be much better off
purchasing a good DeLorean.

Merry Christmas!

		Knut




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:05:06 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Torque settings

Graham,

I think the 4 bolts you are referring to are listed in the parts manual on
page 4:1:1 as
Fig. 2, Part Number 101078, Screw M10, Qty 4.

The remarks say it is 'automatic also', but the automatic section was
obviously written by someone else with a different style of writing.  And
apparently it doesn't mention this part anyway.

Premise 1) The parts manual says that this part of the manual transmission
is the same as the automatic.

Premise 2) The automatic section of the parts manual gives no torque
specification equal to the 14 ft-lbs that is 'apparently' listed in the
manual section.

Conclusion 1) Either they disagree or we are looking at the wrong part.

Conclusion 2) Choose a torque setting that is for a similarly described
part.  That could be 18 ft-lbs which still seems bit weak.  I suggest
starting with 18 ft-lbs and re-checking the torque periodically until you
are satisfied that it is tight enough.

When is someone going to write a new service manual that takes all this into
consideration?

Walt    Tampa, FL





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:45:38 -0500
From: "Dave Stragand" <dave.stragand_at_dml_ketchum.com>
Subject: Re: At what point does a DeLorean become salvage.

Hmmm...

As the owner of what might be the world's worst basket case DeLorean...
I have a bit of experience with this question! =)

An important bit of wisdom was imparted to me early on in auto
restoration: "The difference between a $15,000 car and a $20,000 car is
around $10,000."  It's strange but true. You can almost always get a
better deal (when all totaled) by buying a car that is great to begin
with, than by fixing up one that needs work.  I'm at around $17,000 into
my project, and I'm not done yet.  I'm almost positive the "Rule of 20"
is going to apply in my case.  The "Rule of 20", if you are unfamiliar
with it, is Cost of DeLorean + Cost of parts and service = $20,000.
That's about $5,000 more than a D in nice shape to begin with...

Now I, on the other hand, bought -my- car for the express purpose of
fixing it up. The process itself is what I'm interested in, more than
the end result. Will I have a $20,000 car if I spend $20,000 restoring
it? Most likely not. And to make financial matters worse, I will have
invested a couple-thousand- hours of work to boot.

Sometimes though, the journey is better than the destination. My '58
Plymouth has around $27,000 invested in it, but is still only a $17,000
car. Where did the $10k go? It bought one heck of a lot of fun. A LOT of
fun. And it's worth it, IF you can afford it.

I see a lot of posts asking for a cheap D, by someone who will finance.
Originally, that's how I approached the original owner. I did pay him
cash though when the deal was struck - I wanted to start with a clean
slate. I do remember what it was like to be young, and dreaming of that
perfect car. You'll do nearly -anything- to get it. However, trust me on
this one: DO NOT BUY A COLLECTOR CAR UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MONEY TO MAKE
IT RUN AND KEEP IT RUNNING. Now it doesn't have to be perfect at first,
but at least drivable. If you spend every cent buying a car that'll need
tons more money before it's streetable, you will stress yourself to
death. You'll start to see the car as an endless drain on your wallet,
and it may be years before you ever get to drive it. Besides, it's a
race against time. The longer it sits, the more it will need.
Eventually, you end up selling the car for less than you layed out, and
you'll be depressed as well as carless. This is what my friends call the
"Project Car Spiral". Avoid it.

I'm at a point in my life where I have most of the cash and time I need
to responsibly restore a car. If you don't have enough of both to begin
with, then you won't be happy when you get the car. It took me -12
years- to finally get my '58 Plymouth. It took -15 years- to get my D.
If it's worth doing, it's worth waiting, and that advice works on a lot
of levels.

Trust me. I've been there, and done that.  Even have the T-Shirt.  =)

-Dave Stragand
VIN #05927
http://www.ProjectVixen.com/

PS - Happy Holidays to One and All





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:10:29 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>
Subject: Re: Manual update (was Torque settings)

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> When is someone going to write a new service manual that takes all
 > this into consideration?

Time out for an economics lesson. 

Answer - Whenever someone decides that the rewards (i.e. sales of service manuals to owners or servicers of a very limited production  car with even fewer do-it-yourself owners) outweighs the marginal  cost of creating it, + the time and effort of the creator, +the cost of dismantling a car for testing and photographic purposes. If you've ever looked at the efforts involved in a  technical document of this level, you'd see why the Chilton/ Bentley/ Haynes books only cover very popular cars. They have to sell thousands of copies to cover the costs and turn a profit. What is the real market for an updated DMC manual? There are now about 1200 people on this list, maybe half of which own cars, maybe half of those work on their own. 300 books at $75 each does not go very far in terms of publication costs not to mention someone earning a living.

OR - whenever someone decides to do it as a non-profit labor of love. And still take the investment risk.

Would you pay $100/200/500 for an updated manual? And keep in mind that if the manual is expensive, people bootleg-copy it making it even less attractive as a business proposition. 

In the mean time, we have the list's collective wisdom.

Dave Swingle (not an econ professor - really, but I used to be a tech writer)



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:04:21 -0500
From: David Sontos <dsontos_at_dml_sybercom.net>
Subject: Courtesy Light Switch Replacement

Give a man some extra time and experience with automated assembly lines
and watch out. I have come up with a replacement for the bothersome door
switches using solid state capacitive proximity sensors. They replace
the switches perfectly without any modifications to the switch mounting
holes. By using two relays and two sensors, I have replaced the three
Courtesy Light Switches. All existing wiring stays intact when and if
you ever want to return back to stock. Cost is going to be less than
$100 for the kit. There is a continuous small current draw from the
sensors. As a test I let my car sit for two weeks to see if the sensors
would kill the battery and it started right up. I also installed a
cutoff switch for extended storage periods and car shows so I wouldn't
have to pull the fuse anymore.

So if your tired of dead batteries, replacing the rubber tips on the
switches every month, blinking courtesy lights and stuck switches, give
me a email. Depending on the response it will probably take three to
four weeks to order parts, put kits and wiring diagrams and instructions
together. This project would be rated a medium mechanical/electrical
experience.

Dave Sontos
VIN 02573




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:06:09 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Need headlight switch spring

Pin 3 on my headlight switch got pushed far enough into the switch body that
it made electrical contact with the spring.  As a normal part of the
switch's operation, the spring rubs against the edge of the switch contact
surface going to pin 4.  Over a period of time, this heated the spring
taking the tension out of it.  The weld marks on the surfaces tell the
story.  What used to be a 27mm long spring is now a pancake of wire.

Instead of buying another switch (again), does anyone know where I can find
such a spring?  Pep Boys and Discount Auto don't have anything close enough.
Home Depot quit selling springs a few months ago.  Anyone have any leads?

Thanks,
Walt    Tampa, FL





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:32:14 -0000
From: "Scot Stern" <SGSKBM_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Who's Delorean Was It?

I have Delorean Vin 6452. It came with 9,000 miles on it and it came 
from Puma Valley in California.  The car was "donated" to a local 
hospital and then I bought it.  It was basically brand new when I 
bought it.  I inquired at Don's and Delorean One and no one had ever 
seen it before.  Don said that it was in the best shape of any 
Delorean he had ever seen! He was surprised that he had not seen it 
for service before.

Anyway, I removed the Puma Valley Country Club sticker from the 
windshield.  Today, while cleaning under the rear deck carpeting, I 
found a "sticker" from the Puma Valley Country Club that indicated 
that the car belonged to John Delorean's wife.  At least that is what 
the parking permit said, as it had her name on it.  Could this have 
been her car as I know that they had a house there at one time?

Any thoughts on this subject?

SS
6452




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 19:19:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Aaron Posey <cadysrme_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: fender writing

Hey list,


The right front fender was removed from my car last night
and we discovered something interesting.  In red ink it
says, "14 men on a dead mans chest, Perverts!" The fender
is dated 23/8/81.  My car is an Aug 81 build.  A picture
was made and I will post it so all can see this as soon as
the role is developed!  Thought it was pretty interesting.
I have heard of some other interesting writings on some
other peoples body panels.

Hope everyone has a great Holiday!!

Aaron



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:48:40 EST
From: abatt10347_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Thanks

Fellow DMLer's,
First, Happy Holidays to all list members.
Second, a very special thank you for all the hard work to our moderators. 
Without whom we would have a large mess on our hands. Dave, I took the time 
to follow the update link on the main DML page. Do you have any spare time? 
Seems to me this list takes a lot of yours. So an extra thank you to Dave for 
keeping the wheels on the wagon. We all are just along for the ride, your 
guidance makes the trip a lot easier.
Enjoy living the dream and hope all your wishes come 
true.........................
Bruce Battles
Vin# 06569


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________