From: dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 7:52 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 348

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There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. need clarification about lasagna heat shield
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

2. Re: Tax deductbility
From: rbrogren_at_dml_aol.com

3. getting back from improper storage
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

4. Re: Re: Dealer stripe
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomcio_at_dml_jamesik.com>

5. Re:Backissue Archive (was interesting question)
From: "Dave Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>

6. Re: Re: Tire torque settings
From: "B Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

7. NCT's in Concours
From: James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>

8. Re: getting back from improper storage
From: "Steve Rubano" <srubano_at_dml_optonline.com>

9. Re: NCT's in Concours
From: "Knut Grimsrud" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>

10. Re: getting back from improper storage
From: "Dale Schaub" <daleschaub_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>

11. Re: NCT's in Concours
From: delorean31_at_dml_aol.com

12. Re: NCT's in Concours
From: "Steve Rubano" <srubano_at_dml_optonline.com>

13. Good point, Roger, on the D:
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com

14. Re: Re: Possible buy:)
From: Horseman of PA <the_horseman_pa_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:45:05 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: need clarification about lasagna heat shield

Is it possible that the heat shield warped so badly because it got wet?  Are
these things susceptible to water damage?

How much mileage should one expect to get from an OEM heat shield before it
eventually wears out from normal use?

You all have given some great advice so far.  Thanks.  The new ceramic heat
shield sounds like a great product.  I was wondering if a piece of sheet
metal would work as good, but I suppose not.

Walt    Tampa, FL


>What causes a muffler heat shield to wrinkle and warp to the point that it
>gets cut up in the belts and pulleys?





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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:47:07 EST
From: rbrogren_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Tax deductbility

In response to Hank Eskin:
To claim a tax deduction for a car, or any other contrivance, as part of your 
home business is almost a sure ticket for an IRS audit!
Even if it is your full time business I suggest that you check the 
regulations before you stick your neck out.
Roger
  







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:49:44 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: getting back from improper storage

The owner says that the reason why this car was left sitting is because it
was flooding.  A few weeks of sitting then quickly turned into several
months of improper storage and now there may be even more problems to deal
with.

Before the car does go on the road, I want to be sure the angle drive is
lubricated.  I'm also thinking about taking the plugs out and checking to
see if they are fouled.  Does anyone recommend putting a little oil in each
cylinder before we crank it since it has been sitting for so long?

I also think it might be a good idea to look inside the gas tank to see what
is going on.  Would it be a good idea to pump out the old gas and then
circulate some injector cleaner through the fuel system before we try to
start it?  Or am I just making this move involved than it needs to be?
I got the impression that whatever fuel that is still in the tank is over a
year old.

As for running rich, my experience with fuel systems is still quite limited.
I was of the impression that it took a major miss-adjustment or part failure
to dump enough fuel through the engine to damage the muffler and heat
shield.  I'll let you know what 'we' find out.  We also have two or more
other DML contributors who are going to be there to help get this car back
on the road.  I'm looking forward to it.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:41:29 -0500
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomcio_at_dml_jamesik.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Dealer stripe

Well... my fender is destroyed but the stripe is in pretty good shape. The
problem is that I can't take it off without tearing it into pieces. Maybe
someone can tell me how to remove the stripe without destroing it? After
almost 20 years it doesn't want to come off. I'm afraid to even try

Tom Niemczewski
vin 6298
tomcio_at_dml_jamesik.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rooney" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>


> I've been thinking about you fender problem, and had a question for
> you. Is the entire fender destroyed, or could you be able to salvage
> the rear portion of the side stripe w/the DMC logo on it? The reason
> I ask is 3M makes a product very simular to the side stripe, only
> it's an anti-skid strip that you apply in strips to steps in
> stairwells. Colorwise I'm pretty sure it's identical, although the
> texture is more "rubbery". You might wat to look into it.
>
> -Robert
> vin 6585



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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:02:31 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>
Subject: Re:Backissue Archive (was interesting question)

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, abatt10347_at_dml_a... wrote:
> As this list grows we at times repeat the same question, followed 
by the same 
> answers. Please if you are new to the list take the time to go thru 
the old 
> issues and you will find many of your questions already answered.


Speaking of which, after a "marathon of mouse-clicks", the archive at 
http://www.dmcnews.com/backissues.html is now updated thru today. 
This is the complete history of the list back to the start in 1995. 
(The history at the egroups page goes back to early 1999.) 

These are both seachable archives, and on a snowy day it's kind of 
fun just to read thru a month or two of history. 

Dave Swingle




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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:20:35 -0800
From: "B Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Tire torque settings

 An interesting fact regarding the torque sequence involves something called
torque recovery. We use computerized electric 5 spindle wheel nut guns to
attach the Ranger wheels in our plant. All five nuts are run down to 130nm,
then the tool waits momentarily, then re-torques them in the torque recovery
mode.  Obviously all 5 lugs won't reach torque at the same moment during the
initial rundown. The first lugs that reach torque (130nm in our case) will
relax  to considerably less (as much as 20%) as some of the others reach
torque. For that reason we need the recovery mode to assure they are all
properly torqued. When tightening the DeLorean wheel lugs the proper method
would be to work your way across the wheel and tighten opposite lugs and
then return after the initial tightening to re-torque them all. This hold
true with any wheel installation and when I see the tire shops use their
impact guns I feel like throwing up.

Bruce Benson


> One of my father's old SAE mechanic's books tells of a test (probably done
> by a tool manufacturer) where 20 mechanics, each with 10+ years of
> experience, were asked to tighten a nut down to about 50 ft-lbs of torque.
> None of them were able to get within 25% or something like that with any
> regularity.  And these were professional mechanics.  The moral of the
story
> is, don't try to "feel" torque settings.
> --Rob Hook





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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:15:05 -0500
From: James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>
Subject: NCT's in Concours

This brings up an interesting question that I would like to present 
to the past and potential future judges of the Millennium 
Concours...how would you score two DeLoreans in a concours, one with 
worn NCT's, and other with say, new Yokohamas?

James

At 5:57 PM -0600 12/27/00, Kevin Creason wrote:
>I'm getting my tires Friday.
>I rolled 19k today on the way home from the tire shop.
>should I save those NCT's or let them be shredded into pavement? 
>There is some tread left, but I doubt their usefulness as road tires.
>Perhaps someone wants them for Concours car showing?



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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:53:42 -0000
From: "Steve Rubano" <srubano_at_dml_optonline.com>
Subject: Re: getting back from improper storage

Gas will generally not go bad after sitting for several months...if 
it's over a year...than I would be carfull. Inspect the tank for any 
of this sludge. To be safe pump out the tank of the old fuel and put 
in some injector cleaner into the system with fresh gas. Make sure 
you put the right amount of injector cleaner in with the amount of 
gas...if you don't mix it the way the manufacture suggests than you 
can damage some fuel components (anything rubber, etc..) When gas 
goes bad it turns into a substance like shellac, would clog the 
entire fuel system if it is circulated through it. 

As for putting oil into the cylinders....I would do that. Put a few 
squirts of Marvel Mystery oil into each cylinder...let it sit in the 
cylinders for a good day or two (make sure you put the plugs back in 
so no moisture gets into the cylinders while it's sitting)...then 
turn the engine by hand (with plugs out so it's easier. After you've 
turned it buy hand I would suggest doing the following (others may or 
may not agree with it, but it has worked for alot of engines I have 
done, especially ones that were seized from rust):
1. After you put the oil into the cylinders, let it sit and cranked 
it by hand and reinstalled the plugs (very importnat before you crank 
the engine)...remove the main ignition wire (from coil to 
distributor) trip the fuel pump switch (to turn the fuel pump off) 
and crank the engine (using the starter) in spurts, not continuos. 
Iff you don't turn the fuel pump off than what will happen is gas 
will be injected into the cylinders and since there is no spark, 
won't burn it off. This will wash and oil that is on the cylinder 
walls and cause some severe dmamge. This will get the oil pumped 
through the engine and coat the cylinder walls with a protective oil 
film. After cranking it a few times, put the ignition wire back and 
turn the fuel pump inertia switch back on and start the car up.

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> >snip<
I'm also thinking about taking the plugs out and checking to
> see if they are fouled.  Does anyone recommend putting a little oil 
in each
> cylinder before we crank it since it has been sitting for so long?
> 
> I also think it might be a good idea to look inside the gas tank to 
see what
> is going on.  Would it be a good idea to pump out the old gas and 
then
> circulate some injector cleaner through the fuel system before we 
try to
> start it?  Or am I just making this move involved than it needs to 
be?
> I got the impression that whatever fuel that is still in the tank 
is over a
> year old.
> 
> >snip<> 
> Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:03:01 -0800
From: "Knut Grimsrud" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>
Subject: Re: NCT's in Concours

James brings up a good question regarding competition judging standards.
There does not seem to be clear guidelines on this, so it's a bit open to
interpretation. The following are my personal views on this (probably does
not reflect others' views).

There are 4 points for tires in the DMC judging manual. In my view a score
of 4 requires original NCT's in as-new condition (no noticeable wear)
properly cleaned and prepared for show. A score of 0 would be warranted for
non-original tires, with noticeable wear, and not completely cleaned for
show.

The elements for this item consist of
1) Correct tires on car
2) Condition of the tires
3) Preparation of the tires for show

My inclination would be to award the 4 points according to these three
categories as 2 points for correct tires, 1 point for wear, and 1 point for
preparation. My feelings for this weighting is due to the degree of
difficulty involved in getting good condition correct tires versus the
difficulty of preparing them, etc. Thus, assuming the tires were all
prepared properly for show, a worn set of NCT's would rate a score of
approximately 3, while a new set of Yokahamas would rate about 2. Note, that
worn tires are also much more difficult to get to look nice, so would be
more susceptible to deduction for good dressing/preparation. Worn NCT's
might therefore in practice get scores closer to 2.5 even if prepared well
for show.

These are just my own thoughts on this -- as most folks already know, I'm
pretty picky about finding things to deduct for in these competitions
(otherwise all the cars would end up with the same score). James is the
master at this and I trust his judgement and guidelines on judging
standards.

	Knut



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From: James Espey  <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 3:15pm
Subject: NCT's in Concours


This brings up an interesting question that I would like to present
to the past and potential future judges of the Millennium
Concours...how would you score two DeLoreans in a concours, one with
worn NCT's, and other with say, new Yokohamas?

James




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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:44:20 -0700
From: "Dale Schaub" <daleschaub_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: getting back from improper storage

Walter,

My mechanic told me that a red muffer is a starved engine indicating that
the car is not getting enough
gas. Since the car has been setting I would  recommend that you drain the
tank, and replace all the composites in the tank. The rubber gets old and
starts to detorate, getting tiny rubber pieces throughout the system. Check
the fuel filter. I had black rubber pieces in the filter.

The black rubber plugged my injectors. If your injectors are plugged, I
recommend replacing them. We tried to flush the injectors, twice at a cost
of $104.00. The injectors are only $30 to 35 a piece for a total cost of
$180 plus shipping. Mine were $180+$104 :)

I replaced all the composites in my gas tank, the fuel filter, the
accumulator, and the injectors and I haven't had anymore fuel related
problems since.

Check the fuel system and make the repairs necessary before you start
changing the setting on the carborator. I didn't need any other changes
after I flushed the fuel system.

Dale





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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:06:35 EST
From: delorean31_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: NCT's in Concours

I think this is an important area of any concours event.  Tires are one of 
the items that certainly fall into the "safety item" category.  In a lot of 
concours competitions, items that are replaced due to safety concerns are not 
deducted for in judging.  As long as the replacement part meets original 
specifications.  Of course in this case this would mean replacing the tires 
with original sizes and specifications such as no white lettering and so 
forth.  I think the correct Yokohama match is perfect or any other that meets 
the original size front and back.  I don't think any tire manufacturer would 
tell you its safe to drive on twenty year old tires.  No matter what the 
tread life they have left.  Yes, I know some original NCT's still look new 
and the rubber is not cracked or worn.  However tires do break down over 
time.  I think a DeLorean Concours should look at safety items very closely.  
In my case for example I want my car to be as original or concours as 
possible.  However when it comes to safety items I want to upgrade or replace 
where necessary to ensure the car is safe and if I want to drive from NJ to 
Cleveland for example I have no reservations about the car performing well 
without any unforeseen problems.  On my car for example I have upgraded items 
that I believe we have learned over time are prone to problems.  I have added 
a lockzilla, fanzilla, metal coolant bottle, and new Yokos to name a few.  
Also new window regulators and taillight circuit boards.  My car was in like 
new condition when I bought it.  In fact of all the items I mentioned that I 
replaced, I hadn't experienced problems with any of them before replacing 
them.  However after studying the DML and researching the car as we all have, 
I learned the potential problems that might, and in fact, would likely occur. 
 I wanted the car to as reliable as possible mechanically.  However I want it 
to be stock as possible as well.  I wouldn't change anything cosmetically on 
the car but that's my own preference and we each have our own taste.  My 
NCT's had only 7000 miles on them when I took them off.  The tread looked 
like new and they had no signs of dry rot or cracking.  In fact they looked 
new.  I have them stored in my garage.  The ride was slightly harder but that 
is expected with a 20 year old tire as opposed to a new set.  In any event I 
think items replaced for safety mechanically, which do not change the car 
cosmetically, should be allowed.  I like the idea of being able to bring the 
original part to show you only changed the part for safety.  An example would 
be to put on a metal coolant bottle but have the original with you for 
concours competition.  Tires of course are different and should be excluded 
as long as they match original specs.  No one should be expected to haul a 
set of original tired to a show.  I would like to see an addendum to the 
concours handbook listing safety items that most, if not all members of the 
DeLorean community, would agree should be replaced or upgraded due to the 
fact that over time they have proven to be unsafe or unreliable.  Just a few 
items to give an example in my opinion are:  fan relay, lock module, coolant 
bottle.  Also items such as tires that wear or break down over time.  My two 
cents.

Gary Gore
Activities Director 
DeLorean Mid Atlantic
VIN 3360

In a message dated 12/30/00 8:41:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
james_at_dml_usadmc.com writes:

<< This brings up an interesting question that I would like to present 
 to the past and potential future judges of the Millennium 
 Concours...how would you score two DeLoreans in a concours, one with 
 worn NCT's, and other with say, new Yokohamas?
 
 James
  >>




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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 02:45:03 -0000
From: "Steve Rubano" <srubano_at_dml_optonline.com>
Subject: Re: NCT's in Concours

Hold on here,
The original NCT tires are over 20 years old! I don't know when Good 
Year stopped manufacturing the NCT's but come on now....20 years old. 
Tires have a life expectancy...and these are WAY past the expectancy! 
How do other concourse judges judge other cars when it comes to this? 
Especially cars that are more than 20 years old. I know that when it 
comes to tires, judges usually look to see if they are the closeest 
match to originals. One example would be the Whitewall tires...as 
long as the person didn't replace their tires with a modern black 
wall tire and replaced it with a reproduction whitewall that they 
would qualify. I feel that if the person has the SAME tire size as 
the NCT's and not any larger or smaller should be qulified. I agree 
that if you want concourse cars you should have everything original 
as is or if something needs to be replaced/repaired it should be with 
original NOS parts. Shouldn't there be a change in the guidlines as a 
part becomes unavailable such as the NCT tires?

I for one would not own a concourse car...the Delorean I own won't be 
a daily driver or a concourse car...but a car I can take out every 
weekend for a joy ride...something to enjoy and be proud of to show 
off in public....ESPECIALLY since I am restoring this car from the 
chassis on up!

Everyone has their own opinion on this and this does come up from 
time to time but try to explain to someone who is forced to replace 
their NCT whether from a blow out (again they are 20 years old) or 
dry rot or even from side wall damage that can't be repaired and they 
have a concorse car! I can understand taking points off a car if it 
had any of it's original parts replaced with some aftermarket one. 
One example would be the alternator...after all it can be rebuilt to 
keep it original but tires cannot be rebuilt, maybe rethreaded but 
that would not look good at all.

Steve
VIN #3365


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, "Knut Grimsrud" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_i...> 
wrote:
> James brings up a good question regarding competition judging 
standards.
> There does not seem to be clear guidelines on this, so it's a bit 
open to
> interpretation. The following are my personal views on this 
(probably does
> not reflect others' views).
> 
> There are 4 points for tires in the DMC judging manual. In my view 
a score
> of 4 requires original NCT's in as-new condition (no noticeable 
wear)
> properly cleaned and prepared for show. A score of 0 would be 
warranted for
> non-original tires, with noticeable wear, and not completely 
cleaned for
> show.
> 
> The elements for this item consist of
> 1) Correct tires on car
> 2) Condition of the tires
> 3) Preparation of the tires for show
> 
> My inclination would be to award the 4 points according to these 
three
> categories as 2 points for correct tires, 1 point for wear, and 1 
point for
> preparation. My feelings for this weighting is due to the degree of
> difficulty involved in getting good condition correct tires versus 
the
> difficulty of preparing them, etc. Thus, assuming the tires were all
> prepared properly for show, a worn set of NCT's would rate a score 
of
> approximately 3, while a new set of Yokahamas would rate about 2. 
Note, that
> worn tires are also much more difficult to get to look nice, so 
would be
> more susceptible to deduction for good dressing/preparation. Worn 
NCT's
> might therefore in practice get scores closer to 2.5 even if 
prepared well
> for show.
> 
> These are just my own thoughts on this -- as most folks already 
know, I'm
> pretty picky about finding things to deduct for in these 
competitions
> (otherwise all the cars would end up with the same score). James is 
the
> master at this and I trust his judgement and guidelines on judging
> standards.
> 
> 	Knut
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________
> 
> From: James Espey  <james_at_dml_u...>
> Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 3:15pm
> Subject: NCT's in Concours
> 
> 
> This brings up an interesting question that I would like to present
> to the past and potential future judges of the Millennium
> Concours...how would you score two DeLoreans in a concours, one with
> worn NCT's, and other with say, new Yokohamas?
> 
> James




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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:49:07 EST
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com
Subject: Good point, Roger, on the D:


In a message dated 12/30/2000 2:53:29 PM, you wrote:

<<Is it a "super car"? Opinions may differ, but in my opinion it is.
In the January 2001 issue of Sports Car there is an article titled "Saleen 
Supercar Shocker". Yes, it looks snazzier than the DeLorean, but there is a 
resemblance in lines as well as design innovations and yes, it does have a 
550 HP engine, however, it IS advertised as a Daily Driver -- with a price 
tag of $375,000! Will it be more reliable than the DeLorean? Will any number 
of them be around and driven 20 years from now? With spare parts and 
technical support available? Not likely!>>

This is an excellent point, so then one has to ask: Why is the DeLorean
in this position?  I think the clear answer is the BTTF movies, a
connection that many DeLorean owners may try to play down, but
ulimately I don't think you really can.  In the end, DeLorean owners
may owe more thanks to Speilberg and Zemeckis than to John
DeLorean (and I'm sure I'm not the first one to make that point.)

Richard
     




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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:10:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Horseman of PA <the_horseman_pa_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Possible buy:)

Frame straightning is one of the hardest repairs to be
done, in most cases it is impossible to repair
exactly. even if you are using a laser straightning
device as used in professional auto repair shops. If
you have no idea what your looking at or the fram
looks as thought it is visabley (with the naked eye)
to be wraped I would sagest you hold onto your money
and buy something with cosmetic flaws. Anytime your
involved in frame wraping or twisting the damage is
usally 10 fold, what might seem to be okay may be
weakend or cracked and cause serious trouble only
after you've spent far to mutch repairing the frame.
Also doors are affected meaning they don't close
correctly or hang or stick, or whatever you would like
to call it. All I'm saying is "let the buyer beware"
don't get into something believing it's your dream
come true just to find it's your worst nightmare.
cosmetics can be fixed or covered or tweaked actuall
warping or twisting to the fram is NOT reparible
COMPLETELY. ask any auto colission specialist.
suspension is affected as is alinment, poor tire wear,
improper brake adjustment, ratteling, vibration and
boat loads of other problems. 

Don't settle for the first thing you see because the
perfect car might be around the corner. These are just
my thoughts, this in no way says that the car is in
bad condition I've never seen it. but I'd seek
professional consiltaion before putting your hard
earned money down.

Wayne Heath

No VIn as of yet!...

"Drive Stainless"
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, "Lance B. Bowman"
> <spaceace_at_dml_q...> wrote:
> > Owners, list members,
> > 
> >  >SNIP<> 
> >  My girlfriend (bless her soul for finding this
> one!) told me about 
> a
> > DeLorean that has a (possibly) warped frame (?).
> I've seen pictures 
> of a
> > DeLorean frame, and it's not the typical
> automobile frame the rest 
> of
> > the world is used to seeing. It looks to me like
> it would take a 
> pretty
> > serious hit to warp it. We drove by the guy's
> house, and there it 
> was,
> > under a car cover, and she assured me it hadn't
> been moved in quite
> > awhile, and she never sees it on the road.
> <Anyway...>
> > 
> >  I haven't contacted the gentleman about the car
> yet, but I wanted 
> to
> > ask those in-the-know about any experiences they
> might have had with
> > this subject.
> > 
> >  Thanks in advance!
> > 
> > Lance B. Bowman
> 
> 
> 
> Before posting messages or replies, see the posting
> policy rules at:
> www.dmcnews.com/Admin/rules.html
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> .
> ddress comments privately to the moderating team,
> please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> .
> 


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