From: <dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 352
Date: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:34 AM

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To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Hurt D for sale, please save!
From: "Robert Rooney" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

2. Re: Colling system hoses
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

3. Re: New Poll / What number owner are you???
From: Jan van de wouw <Jan_at_dml_vdWouw.Demon.nl>

4. Re: Re: NCT's in Concours
From: Marc A Levy <malevy_at_dml_dnrc.bell-labs.com>

5. Re: Hurt D for sale, please save!
From: "Erik Geerdink" <delorean502_at_dml_excite.com>

6. Re: Harbor Freight
From: Bob Brandys <oehcs_at_dml_flash.net>

7. Lowering the Front Springs
From: wmack <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>

8. Re: DMC, BTTF, and other cars compared to the D.
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com

9. Octagon Auto?
From: "Chris C" <petleech_at_dml_aol.com>

10. Delorean Wide Black Stripe
From: joelpash_at_dml_yahoo.com

11. Re: Re: NCT's in Concours
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

12. Re: Re: NCT's in Concours
From: "Beetle" <beetle2000_at_dml_bright.net>

13. RE: Lowering the Front Springs
From: "Doc" <doctor280_at_dml_email.msn.com>

14. Re: Lowering the Front Springs
From: "William F. Lane" <blane_at_dml_netunlimited.net>

15. Re: Lowering the Front Springs
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

16. Re: Lowering the Front Springs
From: "Kevin Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 05:06:50 -0000
From: "Robert Rooney" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Re: Hurt D for sale, please save!

[ MODERATOR"S NOTE: I'm probably stepping on toes as well but I think the hurt car has received enough attention and the posts are begining to sound repetative so I'm killing the thread.]




I know I'll probably step on few toes here, but give me a chance. The 
purpose of the "At what point does a DeLorean become Salvage" thread 
wasn't just about when is it more profitable to destroy a car by 
parting it out rather then spending time & more money on the car to 
turn a profit by resoring it. This car in particular is another 
example of a car that is a good canidate for a restoration. Although 
I would place this car at the level of MUCH more advanced level of 
repair work. Quick run thru: Anywhere from light to heavy chassis 
repair, moderate to heavy fibreglass repair, and heavy repair to 
complete replacement of the rear quarter panel, plus a replacement of 
the passenger side tail lens to make the car road worthy again. Of 
course on top of this you would need cosmetic items such as a new 
facia, louvers, engine cover, etc... But I'm just pointing out the 
basics to get the car going. This care requires more love then it 
does money to fix. Remember, you can earn and obtain cash, but you 
can't earn or obtain love.
  On a more personal note that may upset some, although I meant no 
offence by it; STOP TRYING TO JUNK EVERY DELOREAN THAT NEEDS MAJOR 
WORK!!!! The whole point was not about money, but which car is right 
for a person, not just their wallet alone. If your opinion is that a 
particular car should be parted out (especially one in this good a 
condition), then more then likely this is not a car for you. The car 
has not sold. This is not because no one wants the car, it's just 
that someone who does hasn't come to take the car home yet. If you 
see a car that you don't want or can't use, why not just pass it 
along to someone who does?

-Robert
vin 6585



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, Dad <dsontos_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> This car was posted here last summer I believe, unless someone 
wants a
> parts car its worthless.
> 
> Dave Sontos
> VIN 02573




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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:10:20 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Colling system hoses

With the exception of the cold start valve and warm up regulator fuel lines
the water pump can be replace without disassembly of the fuel injection
system.

"We're here to help you"

DMC Help / De Lorean Services / <dmchelp_at_dml_att.net>
Web Site: (TEMPORARY)<www.geocities.com/dmcjoe>

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hook <robhook_at_dml_bellatlantic.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Colling system hoses


> James,
>
>
> As for the water pump, the most common failure is that water will start
> leaking out of the weep hole on the front of the pump.  It's not common
for
> the pump to make noise when failing.  If you DID have to replace it,
> however, removing the rear fascia is not required.  You DO have to remove
> the fuel injection system and intake manifold, however.
>
> --Rob Hook





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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:35:22 GMT
From: Jan van de wouw <Jan_at_dml_vdWouw.Demon.nl>
Subject: Re: New Poll / What number owner are you???

> I'm not sure if this Poll has been conducted before but....go to 
> http://www.eGroups.com/surveys/dmcnews?id=479443  to tally up what 
> number owner you are for your car!

I just put in my vote for this poll, but it got me wondering...
I'm the current owner of VIN# 05141, I know I'm the 3rd DUTCH owner,
that the guy I bought my car from (2nd Dutch owner) aquired it 
in 1996 and that it has been in The Netherlands since 09-11-1994 at 
least, brought here from the USA by/for the 1st Dutch owner.

That's as far as I have been able to trace its history.
I've allready had someone try and run the VIN through CarFax,
but the search turned up empty.

What I'm really asking is if anyone on this list happens to be
familiar with this car and/or its history...

If anybody has any tips on tracing this I'd also be glad to know.
When nothing turns up I won't really mind either: to me owning,
driving and working on the car is more important than knowing its
complete story.

To be complete here are the specs of my car:
VIN# SCEDT26T9B005141
Built Oct. 1981
Grooved hood, no flap
Manual Transmission
Grey interior

Most updates have been done and look like they were done while the
car still was in the USA (Judging by some of the parts used). 

Thanks in advance for the effort,

Jan van de Wouw
Thinking Different...   Using a Mac...
Living the Dream...   Driving a DeLorean...

#05141 "Dagger" since Sept. 2000

Check out the DeLorean-Files at:
http://www.deloreanfiles.nl/
--------------------------------




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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:09:45 -0500
From: Marc A Levy <malevy_at_dml_dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Re: Re: NCT's in Concours

The point has been made, and I agree, that even if a good LOOKING set of 20 year
old tires are found, that in no way indicates that they are safe.

Frankly, I dont know why anyone would risk safety (or even reliability) for a
trophy.  Furthermore (as I have said before), I can't understand why any
DeLorean "authority" would encourage such a practice.  Points should be DEDUCTED
for 20 year old tires, along with any other original unsafe items.

Ya, I know the arguments about how other "concourse" events are run, but that
does not make it correct.

Mike Substelny wrote:
<SNIP>
> Based on the experience of judging the truely fine concours cars in Saint Louis
> and Cleveland, I know that there are still some excellent condition NTCs out
> there.  Anyone who is serious about competition will be able to find a set.
> 
<SNIP>



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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:20:58 -0000
From: "Erik Geerdink" <delorean502_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: Re: Hurt D for sale, please save!

If someone does buy this Delorean, I have a rear pontoon that I am 
looking to get rid of.  I also have a used rear passenger panel, used 
rear fascia and a used tail lense that I will sell for a really good 
combined price.  Heck, I will even trailer the parts to you (only if 
you live within the general area of michigan.  
I am moving and need to get rid of some of my bigger parts.  

Thanks!

Erik Geerdink

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com, James Espey <james_at_dml_u...> wrote:
> Let's talk for a minute about what it would take to save this car, 
> and if it's "worth it".
> 
> This assumes that all parts are bought new...
> Right quarter panel 997.49
> rear valance 52.41
> air inlet 14.31
> right quarter glass 87.91
> right tail light 191.26
> side lamp assy  25.60
> impact absorber 468.28
> rear closing panel 323.40
> Rear fascia 642.85
> engine cover 253.25
> engine cover stay assembly 49.41
> engine cover grilles, clips, retaining strips 411.95
> louvre 483.86
> louvre grilles 92.42
> 
> So far we're at a little under $4100 - that's all the big stuff, 
NOT 
> COUNTING fiberglass work - you can probably pick up a used rear 
body 
> half or quarter for the repair for $500-$1000. Louvre latch, engine 
> cover latch, struts, miscellaneous bits and pieces and trim and 
> fasteners might add another $500-$750. And don't forget labor for 
all 
> this - De Lorean Motor Company's labor rate is $62.50 per hour, 100 
> hours labor all totalled, easily. This "off the cuff" estimate 
> assumes no frame damage, no damage to the t-panel, passenger door, 
> rear glass, tire/wheel, engine/exhaust/etc. It would be a miracle 
if 
> there was no damage to the other side, either.
> 
> It appears to be a relatively early car judging from the black door 
> locks (two key system), dark wheels and fender mounted antenna. 
These 
> point to car with a VIN below 1800 or so. Probably a manual 
> transmission, almost assuredly a black interior. Looks like it has 
> the original coolant bottle, so it'll probably need some other 
> upgrades as well.
> 
> So...counting the price of the car, you've got almost $20,000 into 
a 
> car with a salvage title that will never be worth as much as any 
> other $20,000 DeLorean out there with a "good" title.
> 
> There is intrinsic value in bringing a DeLorean back from the dead, 
> particularly if you do it yourself (ask Dave about the Vixen 
> project), and that can only be measured by each individual.
> 
> You can probably part it out in six months or a year, and recoup 
the 
> $7500 fairly easily, but then you've got a partial DeLorean in your 
> garage/backyard for a period of time. Not many homeowner's 
> associations going to go for it sitting in your driveway.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see this car brought back to life, 
> and the right person with the skills, disposable income, time, 
> patience, and love for the DeLorean could do it - but they'd have 
to 
> do it for love because they could probably never sell it and get 
> their money out of it.
> 
> James Espey
> DeLorean Motor Company
> Houston, Texas
> 
> 281/568-9573
> 800/USA-DMC1
> http://www.delorean.com
> 
> PS - If anyone from the DML does buy this car with the intention of 
> rebuilding it - let me know, I'll work you a deal on the parts :-)
> 
> 
> >   Dear List,
> >   Below is a link to pics of a hurt D that needs a new home. 
Please
> >do NOT visit this link if you are easily upset at images of hurt 
D's
> >(I cried when I visited). The car is selling for $7,500. That is 
all
> >the info I have at this time. I would buy this car and save it if I
> >could but sadly do not have the money at this time.
> >  http://www.octagonauto.com/images/delorenrear.jpg
> >    DMC Wannabe




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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:50:16 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <oehcs_at_dml_flash.net>
Subject: Re: Harbor Freight

[ MODERATOR'S NOTE: I did think the post yesterday about Harbor Freight pretty much said it all but it was all CON and I think the company deserves Bob's PRO side to be heard.This is "for sure" the end of the Harbor Freight thread ]




I have purchased many tools from harbor freight over the past 15 years and have generally been pleased with their service.

Most of their stuff is made in china and consequently the cost is very inexpensive.   I have found that if you maintain the tools they last for many years.

I weigth the cost verses the trouble and still find them to be the best deal around.

Another compediter,  Northern, is more expensive.  But appeared to have the same level of service.

Of course, you can now go to Walmart and get the air tools for about the same price. J. C. whitney is similarly priced.

It is possible that in recent years,  Harbor Freight has decreased their staff in response to other compediters. and as a resulted service has suffered.   They were the first ones in the
market with imported tools and early on had tremedous growth.

Sometimes when the pie is sliced too small no one gets a sufficient piece of the business to make a good company. I will still buy from them in the future.


Bob










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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 13:06:46 -0500
From: wmack <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>
Subject: Lowering the Front Springs

I read in Delorean World that you could lower the front end of simply cutting 
a couple of coils off of the original springs, rather than buying the new 
lowered springs.  Has anyone had any success with this? and is it reliable?

Thanks
  Willie
  Vin 5043




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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:23:38 EST
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com
Subject: Re: DMC, BTTF, and other cars compared to the D.

Robert, I only disagree slightly with what you said about BTTF.  I
didn't mean to say that the movies are the SOLE reason for the
car's existence and popularity today; obviously there would be
DeLoreans and DeLorean owners if the movies were never made.
But would the car be as recognizable, would there be as much
support for it and prices be lower if the movies were never around?
I may have to say yes to all that right now.

I'm also not saying that DeLorean owners buy one because "They
want to be like Doc Brown."  (I only became in the D in the late
80s/early 90s when I looked in an old car magazine my friend has
and found out that it was a real and very interesting car that people 
can drive...but I have to say that if the movies would have never been
made, I probably would have just passed it over as a strange concept
car and never would have taken an interest in it!)  All I am saying is
that the movies have helped TREMENDOUSLY in the car's popularity
(we just passed the 15th anniversary of the first movie, didn't we?)
and perhaps more D owners should just recognize that.

Richard

  



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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:22:32 -0000
From: "Chris C" <petleech_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Octagon Auto?

Although this would be a great project car on octagon auto I hope 
sincerely that no one buys the car from Octagon. This would be a 
Great car anywhere else to rescue. Although many have pointed to the 
price as the main problem, I believe it is the dealer. Octagon is a 
complete rip-off. Take for example the 1991 Lotus Elan friends of 
mine had recently purchased from Octagon. The car appeared fine at 
the dealer. The dealer also claimed the car had no frame damage. They 
bought the car only to relize later that the main section of the 
frame had a massive dent in it. After they called the dealer, he 
merely said it was their problem and about a day later they received 
calls asking whether they wanted to sell parts from their car. THese 
people had been referred by Octagon. NEVER BUY ANY CAR FROM OCTAGON. 
No matter how good a cause, the dealer is evil.




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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:24:35 -0000
From: joelpash_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Delorean Wide Black Stripe

Hey All,

I know we were all talking about getting the wide black stripe 
reproduced a while back.  Well, I couldn't get it done, but I have 
the original (still in the box) and I am putting it up for auction on 
ebay.  It will be up later tonight.  Search for it on ebay.  Any 
questions, joelpash_at_dml_yahoo.com.




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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:59:31 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: NCT's in Concours

In a message dated 1/3/01 5:57:00 PM Central Standard Time, 
malevy_at_dml_dnrc.bell-labs.com writes:


> Frankly, I dont know why anyone would risk safety (or even reliability) for a
> trophy.  Furthermore (as I have said before), I can't understand why any
> DeLorean "authority" would encourage such a practice.  Points should be 
> DEDUCTED
> for 20 year old tires, along with any other original unsafe items.
> 
> Ya, I know the arguments about how other "concourse" events are run, but 
> that
> 

well, why don't the entrants just put their NCT's on the day of the show?  
who says they have to actually drive their car with them on when they aren't 
showing it? surely this would be a lot safer, even if more time consuming!  

you are right about safety - but that's not what concourse is about.  it's 
about original cars.

just my 2 cents... (i don't even do the concourse thing!)
andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:37:20 -0500
From: "Beetle" <beetle2000_at_dml_bright.net>
Subject: Re: Re: NCT's in Concours

20 year old tires huh.The tires on a DeLorean being original is good, but I
would rather save my life
than worry about preserving 20 year old tires. Would theyve gone bad back in
'83 would youve changed
them then??????


> The point has been made, and I agree, that even if a good LOOKING set of
20 year
> old tires are found, that in no way indicates that they are safe.
>
> Frankly, I dont know why anyone would risk safety (or even reliability)
for a
> trophy.  Furthermore (as I have said before), I can't understand why any
> DeLorean "authority" would encourage such a practice.  Points should be
DEDUCTED
> for 20 year old tires, along with any other original unsafe items.
>
> Ya, I know the arguments about how other "concourse" events are run, but
that
> does not make it correct.
>
> Mike Substelny wrote:
> <SNIP>
> > Based on the experience of judging the truely fine concours cars in
Saint Louis
> > and Cleveland, I know that there are still some excellent condition NTCs
out
> > there.  Anyone who is serious about competition will be able to find a
set.
> >
> <SNIP>
>
>
> Before posting messages or replies, see the posting policy rules at:
> www.dmcnews.com/Admin/rules.html
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>




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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:02:19 -0500
From: "Doc" <doctor280_at_dml_email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Lowering the Front Springs

Willie ask,
I read in Delorean World that you could lower the front end of simply
cutting
a couple of coils off of the original springs, rather than buying the new
lowered springs.  Has anyone had any success with this? and is it reliable?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The answer to this question is yes springs can be cut to lower the Delorean
and the car can still be reliable. But the cost of having this done right
can exceed the price of the lower springs that can be purchased at the
Delorean suppliers.

To get my car lowered front and rear cost $1500.00. My Delorean has cut
springs and I have yet to have a problem and the handling is great. This is
not something that you do in the driveway, but is best left to the
professionals that have had experience doing this.

Robert Starling
Vin#05252
http://stainlesssteel.freeyellow.com/index.html





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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:07:57 -0500
From: "William F. Lane" <blane_at_dml_netunlimited.net>
Subject: Re: Lowering the Front Springs

Willie,

I had my D lowered in front many years ago by this method.  A torch was used to
cut the coils off then flats were ground with grinder.  The end result was not
only a very rough ride, but also the springs were not exactly the same length
which messed up the front end geometry.  Also when braking, the car would pull to
one side one time and to the other the next.  I feel sure that these springs were
the cause.  Also, the tires rubbed the finish edging around the fender wells and
I drug the spoiler many times because they were too low.

When Rob Grady announced his new springs, I immediately ordered a set before he
even had them in stock.  You would not believe the difference they made.  All my
steering and braking problems and rough ride disappeared!  The spring mods were
done by a De Lorean repair center in Florida that is no longer in business.  I
figured the guy knew what he was doing but in this case, it was a botched job.

Save your money and the agrivation and order a good set of springs from Rob or
from Steve in Houston.  You won't be disappointed!

Bill Lane
vin 3635

wmack wrote:

> I read in Delorean World that you could lower the front end of simply cutting
> a couple of coils off of the original springs, rather than buying the new
> lowered springs.  Has anyone had any success with this? and is it reliable?
>
> Thanks
>   Willie
>   Vin 5043
>
> Before posting messages or replies, see the posting policy rules at:
> www.dmcnews.com/Admin/rules.html
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com




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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:16:28 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Lowering the Front Springs

The article in Delorean World is the 'hack & swap' method.  You take the
springs from the rear, cut some off of one end and put them on the front.
Then you put the front springs on the rear.  I think this is the worst
possible way to lower a Delorean for two reasons:  1) This lowers the rear
an unnecessary 2" when it was only the front that was made too high.  2) The
springs are supposed to be flat on the ends.  Once cut, you loose this flat
surface as the spring now has a 'raw' edge that won't seat as well.  You can
help this a bit by grinding the sharp edges down, but it is still a crude
way to lower your car.

Another problem with this method is getting the springs back on the rear of
the car.  When I replaced my rear shocks, I rented (for free from Pep Boyz)
a spring compressor.  Even though I put the springs right back on the way I
took them off, this was not an easy job.  It would have been MUCH harder to
do if I had to decompress/recompress the spring before I put them back on.

Whatever you do to lower your front, be aware that the front shock absorbers
will be too long when you are done.  Using the car this way will beat them
apart.  There is a Monroe/NAPA cross reference for this part, but it will
require some spacers on the lower bolt to make it fit right.  PJ Grady sells
a new set of shocks specifically made for the car that take all these things
into consideration.  You can't go wrong with them.  Check the DML back
issues for more info.

The right way to lower a Delorean is to install a new set of front springs
that put the car at the height which it was designed to be (which is 1.5"
lower than when shipped.)  I bought a set from PJ Grady long ago for $195.
I still haven't put them on my car because I haven't had the time.  I since
heard a rumor that the supply of lowered front springs was running low and
they were looking at having another batch made.  I just took a peek at DMC
Joe's site.  He sells the complete package of lowered front springs with the
new PJ Grady shocks.  Check the end of one of his e-mails for the latest
link.  It looks like he is in the process of updating his site.

It seems reasonable that if you only wanted the front lowered, then you
could just cut the front springs and leave the rears alone.  But I have
never heard of anyone doing this.  If you want to try this, it would be
interesting to find out how much spring to cut off since the instructions in
Delorean World are for cutting the rear springs and then putting them on the
front.  I suppose you could take an educated guess and do some trial and
error.  But your best bet is to buy the lower spring.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:25:17 -0600
From: "Kevin Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Lowering the Front Springs

Only partially related...
Crest Chevrolet of CA was the original dealer for my car. In talking to
original owner I found out that they lowered all DMC12's that passed through
their dealership. Anyone familiar with their procedure, or heard of a dealer
doing that?

BTW-- I strongly urge all of you to track down your previous owners and have
a conversation with them if they are willing. I've spoken to two of three. I
may have a fourth owner that I was not aware of after talking to the
original owner. Oooh, and there are other exciting details that I will post
if I can get the FULL scoop from the missing owner(s).

----- Original Message -----
From: "wmack" <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: [DML] Lowering the Front Springs


> I read in Delorean World that you could lower the front end of simply
cutting
> a couple of coils off of the original springs, rather than buying the new
> lowered springs.  Has anyone had any success with this? and is it
reliable?
>
> Thanks
>   Willie
>   Vin 5043
>
>
>
> Before posting messages or replies, see the posting policy rules at:
> www.dmcnews.com/Admin/rules.html
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>




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