From: <>
To: <>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 364
Date: Saturday, January 13, 2001 7:37 AM

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There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: torsion bar
From: " " <>

2. Re:An end to the shock and spring debacle? (another volley)
From: "delorean" <>

3. Re: My opinion on how the D handles and East TN meeting

4. Does He Read This?
From: "Scot Stern" <>

5. Re: One More thought on the D's doors
From: "Steve Rubano" <>

6. DeLorean Car Show

7. Errata...
From: Brian Henderlong <>

8. Brake Master Cylinder
From: "W.D.SEARLS, JR." <>

9. Audi TT vs DeLorean DMC-12
From: "Stian Birkeland" <>

10. Re: How is he a failure???
From: "Stian Birkeland" <>

11. Re: DMC-12 in computer mag
From: Henry Breer <>

12. Re: How does a torsionbar work?
From: Jan van de Wouw <>

13. Resposnse to Suspension by James Espey

14. Jim Varney's "D"
From: "Mark Hershey" <>

15. Water in the blower motor. (was "Re: a/c blower performace observations (long))
From: "Robert Rooney" <>

16. Re:An end to the shock and spring debacle? (another volley)
From: "Robert Rooney" <>

17. Re: A comment on Metrics

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:06:58 -0000
From: " " <>
Subject: Re: torsion bar

A quick primer on spings. There are three main types, coil, leaf, and 
torsion. They can be made of any material that has the proper
of elasticity" which is a fancy way of saying that if you bend it a 
certain amount it will return to it's former shape. Exceeding a limit 
permanently deforms it. A coil spring is usually round coils. A leaf 
spring is usually flat bars arranged in a stack of varying lengths
a torsion bar is usually a round bar. In applications using torsion 
bars the bar is a specially prepared bar with one end being anchored  
(kept from rotating) and the other preloaded by previous rotation and 
then supporting the load. In the case of the Delorean doors the rear 
end is anchored in a bracket over the rear window and the other end
in the hinge that rotates with the door. When you close the door you 
are twisting the bar that extends from the front hinge to the rear 
anchor. A torsion bar is among the most highly stressed of springs
contains an ENORMOUS amount of stored energy.(There is no way to know 
if the torsion bar is under load just by looking at it which makes it 
so dangerous.) Also if the surface of the bar was to be scratched 
stress would concentrate on the area and propagate into a stress 
fracture causing failure ie: it will break. Adjusting the doors 
consists of changing the preload of the torsion bar. Even with the 
doors open there is STILL an considerable amount of energy preloaded 
into the torsion bar.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, "Thomas B" <tjb229_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> I am a little embarrassed to ask this:  How does the torsion bar 
> in the door of the Delorean anyway?
> Thanks,
> Tom (tjb229_at_dml_p...)


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:40:15 -0500
From: "delorean" <>
Subject: Re:An end to the shock and spring debacle? (another volley)

Is an Audi TT considered to be in the same class as a DeLorean?

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:54:42 EST


     Wait a second here.  First you say and I quote:

<<"a DeLorean...we contend outhandles any car in it's class, and as well as 
many modern cars, including the Audi TT.">>


Message: 3
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:02:01 EST
Subject: Re: My opinion on how the D handles and East TN meeting

I have had personal experience with Steve Wynne's black test DeLorean which 
has been outfitted with all the modifications that James Espey is speaking 
of. I have also drivin "other cars in its class" and trust me on this, the 
DeLorean holds its own with the upgrades. Taking into consideration that the 
DeLorean is a 3,000 lb stainless steel tank, the handling is quite impressive. my personal opinion....the DeLorean could handle like a 1975 
American Motors Pacer and I would still drive it with passion. Its a 
DeLorean. I know two people with Audi TTs, and not one of them can share 
similiar experiences with me that I have had owning my DeLorean. How many 
times do you see mobs of people gather around a TT at a car show? Or have a 
family run up to you in a parking lot and ask questions for 20 mins. Or drive 
thru Florida or California and see billboards boasting the most intense theme 
park ride featuring an Audi TT as the main attraction?? Im not saying that 
the TT isnt worth praise, it certainly is. But its not a DeLorean. Just as 
the DeLorean is not an Audi TT.

The only mistake that I really see in James' posting is when he compared the 
DeLorean to "other cars in its class." When it comes down to it the DeLorean 
is easily in a class of its own.  :)

Either way, I have seen many improvements being made on the DeLorean sports 
car thru better engineering from many of the DMC vendors, including DMC 
Houston with their new engine and suspension, as well as PJ Grady and their 
impressive line of Zilla components. why are some of us trying to 
discourage them?

Just my two cents

Houston TX


Message: 4
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:07:33 -0000
From: "Scot Stern" <>
Subject: Does He Read This?

Since, as of late, the forum has degraded down to mostly 
philosophical issues, I thought that I might ask one.  Do you think 
that John Delorean reads any of these posts?  It might me heart 
warming for him to see the support that he has for a 20 year old car.



Message: 5
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:42:37 -0000
From: "Steve Rubano" <>
Subject: Re: One More thought on the D's doors

***** Moderator's Note *****
Please note the smiley emoticon after Stian's comment.
The torsion bars are not made of stainless steel.  It is
a cryogenically set steel torsion spring.

Wow...learn something new everyday. I did not know that!


--- In, "Stian Birkeland" <dmc_norway_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> Nah, the torsion bars are also made of stainless steel :-)
> Best wishes
> Stian Birkeland
> Norway
> VIN # 06759
> >From: "Steve Rubano" <srubano_at_dml_o...>
> >Putting a rubber boot over the Torsion bar IMHO is a bad idea. It
> >can/will trap moisture in the boot and possibly rust the torsion 
> >
> >Steve
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at


Message: 6
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:12:11 EST
Subject: DeLorean Car Show

I received quite a few inquiries on T-shirts for the DeLorean Car Show from 
my last post..
One thing came up however that has not been talked about and that is I can 
print the Car Show Pictures on Mousepads.
If you are interested please E-mail me privately.
The came out real nice.

<A HREF="">DeLorean Car Show</A>  


Message: 7
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:10:25 -0500
From: Brian Henderlong <>
Subject: Errata...

If you go to this website:

...and search for the word "DeLorean", you'll find a note from a real
estate developer named Ashley Cooper, dated May 16, 2000, which states that
Ashley is currently developing John Z. DeLorean's former Bedminster property.

The website is a chalkboard for the Oconomowoc Senior High School Class of

- Brian Henderlong / Tampa, FL
- DeLorean:
- Impala SS:


Message: 8
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:46:29 -0500
From: "W.D.SEARLS, JR." <>
Subject: Brake Master Cylinder

Here lately I have noticed a strange smell in my garage after I pull my
Delorean from driving. I then noticed a green fluid on the floor. I though
it was coolant. It was brake fluid! Yes, green brake fluid. I then checked
around the master cylinder to see if it was leaking. The cylinder itself
wasn't, but at the top(the cap to be precise) brake fluid would squirt out
whenever I would depress the brake pedal. It then would travel down the
frame to the ground. My question is how do I fix the cap if possible. Should
I buy new one. Is there a crack in the fluid reserve bottle?



Message: 9
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:33:22
From: "Stian Birkeland" <>
Subject: Audi TT vs DeLorean DMC-12

Just throwing in my two cents in the discussion...

1) Don't quarrel over words - everyone on this list has their own personal 

2) My opinion:

DeLorean "outhandles" Audi when it comes to
* overall design (as well as all the rest of the cars in the world) ;)
* door design ;)
* stainless steel

Audi "outhandles" DeLorean when it comes to
* recall costs for the company
* purchase price
* rust ;)

Now, the above is just my personal opinion...I know there are probably 
somewhere out there who will disagree, well so be it! :) Let's not use the 
list to argue, please.

What I would like to try is to test drive both a modified DeLorean and an 
Audi TT, but then again, it would be my personal opinion of the actual 
experience. My point is, how do you "measure" outhandling? What is 
outhandling? Only speed? Looks? Suspension? Attention? All of the above? :)

I'll tell you what, when I at some time get my DeLorean on new shocks, 
lowered springs and a modified engine, I'll compare it to the Audi.

As for now, I know that my DeLorean is the best car in the world! :)
And outhandles everything! (Its about time someone started to brag about our 
lovely "individual" cars with all its little peculiarities)

Stian Birkeland

VIN # 06759 - The Car of My Dreams!

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at


Message: 10
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:42:30
From: "Stian Birkeland" <>
Subject: Re: How is he a failure???

I agree with you, but I'd rather have someone show how fast he got the 
factory ready and DeLoreans into production!

At that time I think it took other carmakers 5 years or so just to build and 
set up a plant. In 2 years or so, the Dunmurry factory was built and cars 
being made. Its amazing when you think of it. Everything was brand new, 
incl. the workers!

Best wishes
Stian Birkeland

VIN # 6759

>Why don't they show how fast and good he brought Pontiac
>production? How about how he got the Trans Am up and running, or the 
>lines better?

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at


Message: 11
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:03:53 -0800
From: Henry Breer <>
Subject: Re: DMC-12 in computer mag

Guilty as charged. The car, VIN 1141, is mine.

The photo was done in early December and is a composite of four different
shots. There is actually only one model used in the 4 different poses.
Photography was in a small studio in Los Angeles where they had
constructed a small set out of galvanized steel sheets for the backdrop
and floor. It required a production crew of over half a dozen - a
producer, photographer, carpenter, lighting, electrician, wardrobe,
makeup, and a couple of gophers (aka production assistants.)  It took
over half a day and they catered lunch and paid me too!

Actually kudos should go to many: DeLorean One for maintenance and
repair; my wife Mimi who is a fanatic cleaner; and "Endurance" by
Meguire's for the shine on the Yokohamas.  I just drive.

Hank Breer wrote:

> I just received the February 2001 issue of "Ziff Davis Smart
> Business for the New Economy" (an e-business magazine
> ...should be on most newsstands).
> Much to my surprise and delight, there's a beautiful 2-page
> shot of a DeLorean on pages 154 and 155. The article deals
> with high-tech safety and privacy gadgets, and the photo shows
> three James Bond wanna-be's on the passenger side of the car
> with a man in a ski mask peering over the car from the driver's side.
> Just curious if the owner is on the list or not. If so, kudos on a
> sharp ride...those Yokohamas shine up nicely!


Message: 12
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:33:19 +0100
From: Jan van de Wouw <>
Subject: Re: How does a torsionbar work?

"Thomas B" <> wrote:

> I am a little embarrassed to ask this:  How does the torsion bar 
> work in the door of the Delorean anyway?

To put it very, very simple, 
a torsion bar is a spring that winds and unwinds along its' own axis.

You can best compare it with a very tightly wound up rubber band:
take a rubber band and two pencils (or something similar),
now hold both pencils slichtly apart and put the rubber band
over both pencils. Turn the pencils oposite to each other,
along the axis of the rubberband so you het an "H"-shape, 
where the rubberband is the bar.

As you twist along you'll notice the twisting getting more and more 
difficult because of the torsion on the rubberband.
Now lay bot pencils flat and hold one down, the other one wil flip up 
and try to unwind the rubber band.

If you imagine the held pencil being the rear edge of the 
door/roof-opening above the rear window and the one trying to
flip up as the roof-part of your door you'll se how this works.

When the Bar "untwists" the force it delivers gets less graduately,
that's what the strut is for: as the Torsion-force gets less,
the strut gets leverage on the door ands helps the door up the last 
part of its' upward motion. That's also why you get "drooping"
doors when the struts wear out; there's no power in them to help
the doors up to its' full opening.

Another thing that this can explain is why there's so much danger
in adjusting the Torsionbars: if you totally let go of the pencil 
that represents the door it starts flopping around.
You would'nt flop around, but you can probably imagine what could
happen if it were you on a breakerbar on the other end.
Remember that the doors weigh about 85kg (160LBS(?)) if I'm 
correct, imagine the force needed to get that up on such small 
leverage: the torsionbar-force is applied only inches from
the hinge-axis and the doors are allmost 3 feet long measured
from hinge to door-sill/bottom!!!

I've never tried adjusting the T-Bars and I'll never try 
without an experienced person helping me!!!

Quite a long post for something so simple  ;-)

JAN van de Wouw
Thinking Different...   Using a Mac...
Living the Dream...   Driving a DeLorean...

#05141 "Dagger" since Sept. 2000

check out the Delorean-Files at:


Message: 13
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:32:08 -0500
Subject: Resposnse to Suspension by James Espey

This is only my second submission to the list and I do so with some
trepidation. I read the list regularly but time constraints usually
my involvement. I know this response is long but please bare with me.

James, to ignore your statements would imply I agree with all of them,
is not the case.

James, you said:
(SNIP  Digest # 356 Message 9)

"Look at a half-dozen DeLoreans with stock front springs side by side
and if
you have two that are the same height, you'll be doing very well."

First; I don't see this poor quality and sagging spring problem you
with the stock springs. After reading your first post I conducted the
following tests with six DeLorean's.

Measurements were taken from the lower edge of the wheel well molding
past the centerline of the wheel to the floor. I did not
have time
to check
tire pressures, fuel tank levels, quantity of fender shims, etc.
This would ensure less deviation from car to car. Tire brands and
odometer readings,
most of which I believe are accurate, are noted and listed below in
mileage order.

Mileage L/F 	R/F	L/R 	R/R 	Tires
2186 	26" 	25 5/8" 27 " 	27 " 	Goodyear NCT
8451 	26" 	26" 	27 " 	27 " 	Goodyear NCT
19021 	25 " 	26" 	27 " 	27 " 	Goodyear NCT
20250 	25 " 	26" 	27 " 	27 5/8" Goodyear Eagle
30461 	25 5/8" 26" 	27 5/8" 27 5/8" Yokahama AVS
36735 	25 " 	25 3/8" 27 " 	27 1/8" Riken

I see no problem here except; the front height is still excessive, even
after twenty years. A valued customer of ours provided me with his
measurements. We installed DMC Houston springs (he bought them directly
from you James) on his car just two years ago. Here are his specs L/F -
24 ", R/F - 24", L/R - 26 ", R/R - 26". The half-inch deviation from
lrft to right on
these two-year-old springs is is greater than some of the
twenty-year-old originals.
Is this a problem? Absolutely not! That small amount of difference is
normal in the car world. Chevrolet used to tell us this was normal
(we were a GM as well as an original DeLorean Dealer until 1982) if a
Chevy owner complained about small height variations while under the new
car warranty.

Our springs drop the front height an inch and a half. We also offer one
lower springs but sell mostly the one and halves. The springs are high
quality and powder coated. Our shock absorbers are custom made for us
are powder coated, nitrogen charged, pressure adjustable, rebuildable,
are produced by a performance shock manufacturer to our specification.
Incidentally the rears feature an adjustable spring preload collar,
will allow you to lower the rear slightly if you wish.

We don't sell front springs just to be cheaper than Houston or because
people will settle for adequate handling. We cut no corners with our
suspension kit and the only relatively cheap part is the price. However;
at $680.00 for
our complete kit, no one has called our suspension cheap. Perhaps we
arrange a track comparison? I'm confident that both of our suspension
kits improve
handling noticeably compared to a stock DeLorean.

I also don't understand how you could say
(SNIP 2 Digest 357 Message 18)

"I have no idea where PJ Grady gets the products they are selling."

on Monday and suddenly came to a realization two days later that

(SNIP 3 Digest 362 Message 3)
"Rob is one of the best customers that De Lorean Motor Company has, and
believe that he, Debbie and their staff provide an excellent and needed
service in their region of the country."

James, I used to feel like you were an ally and DMC Houston was a
partner. This has all gradually changed since you joined their "team".
Don't get me wrong, I still want to be your best customer, but it's hard
when I can't get parts in a timely fashion. It's one of the reasons we
manufacture many parts in the first place and I have a bad feeling I'll
forced to manufacture many more parts in the near future. I also
that we are a  "regional" DeLorean parts and service provider. We have
shipped parts to all fifty states, England, Germany, Japan, Switzerland,
Netherlands, South Africa, France, Italy etc.. We receive cars for
restoration from all over the USA.

I wish to thank all the list members for their favorable comments over
the years, including you James, and would like to be more involved on
mailing list. Hopefully it's not the last you will hear from me. I love
working on DeLoreans for a living and appreciate the fact that my
patronage allows me to do so. Thanks for hearing me out.

Robert Grady
P.J. Grady Inc.


Message: 14
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:44:51 -0600
From: "Mark Hershey" <>
Subject: Jim Varney's "D"

Jim Varney's car may well have been clocked at 140 if local legend is
true....seems Jim had his Delorean turbocharged with Island Turbo parts at
Mortorvation Racing in Dallas. (now long gone). I bought his (or so I was
told) leftover catalytic converter and crossover pipe for spares. Another
list member (who's D has since been wrecked--waaaaaaa) bought his leftover

When I went to Motorvation for service once, there was a purple (OK, maroon
but a really sick maroon) DeLorean out front of Motorvation that was beaten
to a pulp-- literally hammered. Seems the owner took his girlfriend on a
vacation to Colorado and his wife found out. He came home and found his car
with his belongings inside out front of his house. She didn't miss much--
even the engine and transmission had been sledged!


Message: 15
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:21:55 -0000
From: "Robert Rooney" <>
Subject: Water in the blower motor. (was "Re: a/c blower performace observations (long))

--- In, "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> The reason my original blower went bad is because it filled with 
water.  Why
> did it fill with water?  My condensate drain does not appear to be 
> So what's the deal?  It only had 9000 miles on it when it started 
> problems.  Why do the bearings get wet and rust to pieces?

The drain for the intake chamber is clogged. At the bottom of the 
windshield is the intake for the heater & A/C. On the top passenger 
side is the opening where air enters in. At the bottom is a drain 
that empties out over the gas tank. As water and air enter the 
chamber, water naturally falls to the bottom and drains out. The air 
seperates and is sucked into the ducting at the top and is routed to 
the blower motor. If the drain at the bottom is clogged, water will 
fill the chamber, and will spill down thru the ducting, eventually 
collecting in the motor thus rusting it out.

To test this, pour a small amount of water down the windshield, about 
a glass or two. Then check underneath the the car to see if, and how 
much of the water drained out. You can also lean over to look 
directly down to check for blockage, and to see how fast the water 
drains. Water shouldn't stay for very long, and should immediately 
exit thru the drain. After cleaning mine, I can't flood it with even 
a garden hose.

If it's only dirt and cobwebs causing the blockage, cleaning should 
be fairly simple. Remove the access panel in the trunk for the gas 
tank. From here you'll be able to see the drain above the fuel pump 
boot. Using a coat hanger, pencil, or any other object, you can break 
the dirt apart. It makes it easier if you keep the chamber filled 
about half way with water (turns the hardened dirt back into mud. If 
the blockage is worse (twigs, leaves, excessive dirt, etc...) you'll 
need to remove the grill below the windshield to remove the items. 
But be careful, the grill is fragile. Not much force is needed to 
break it.

After this, the problem should go away. The intake chamber isn't 
something you would be able to find in the parts manual. It's not 
installed, but rather "created" when the front firewall is put into 
place (or in the DeLorean's case, when the 2 fibreglass halves were 
glued together). But it's pretty much that way on every car I've ever 

vin 6585

p.s. If the intake chamber for the blower motor is clogged, chances 
are so is the ram air intake for the engine. It wouldn't hurt to 
it as well.


Message: 16
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:24:16 -0000
From: "Robert Rooney" <>
Subject: Re:An end to the shock and spring debacle? (another volley)

I've been reading this thread now for a while. I've seen plently so 
far about other cars, but not much about the DeLorean. How much 
better would my car handle with the new suspension kit? I'm not 
interested in lowering my car, it looks just fine to me at it's stock 
hight. But if a new suspension kit lowers it a little, I'm fine with 
that. I perfer function to appearance. Will the new suspension aid me 
in braking? If I have to slam the brakes _at_dml_ 35mph+, will my backend 
still have a tendancy to slide around? Will the car be easier to 
control if I make a hard turn and hit water? How much faster will I 
be able to take turns? And how will the overall ride feel? Not just 
for performance, but my daily communte?

I don't care about the Audi TT, the Lotus Espirt, or any other cars. 
I have a DeLorean in my garage, NOT an Audi! If you were to ask 
me, "Does a 20 year old DeLorean fitted with a new PERFORMANCE 
suspension out handle a new Audi TT?" I honestly could not answer. I 
haven't driven an Audi, but I haven't drove a DeLorean with the new 
suspension either. But if you were to ask me, "Could it be possible?" 
The answer would be a strong YES! Could a company such as Audi 
produce an expensive car with poor handling? You bet they could! So 
far from what I've seen, everyone has been putting the Audi ahead 
simply because it's "modern". To put it bluntly: So what? The new 
springs and shocks are modern as well. Just because a company has a 
great deal of money for research, developement, testing, and good 
engineers, that doesn't mean that the final product will always turn 
out great. Even great chefs sometimes burn food.

To quote a previous posting: "As far as I know the Audi TT is a good 
handling car and I don't think any suspension upgrade on a De Lorean 
will make it outhandle any other modern car..." That's the thing, "as 
far as you know", and "I don't think". It seems that the only people 
here that do know Is DMC Houston. I don't think that DMC Houston 
would make that type of a claim with out having the proof to back 
them up. So untill we can see something, there really isn't much to 

I'm not posting this to take sides, to correct anyone, or anything 
else. I'm just saying that this is an empty thread with no real 
substance. With no real facts/data yet, there doesn't appear to be 
that much to compare. It's begining to sound like some sort 
of "techie" debate...


Message: 17
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:41:06 EST
Subject: Re: A comment on Metrics

In a message dated 1/12/01 10:10:43 AM Central Standard Time, writes:

> I have a couple of comments in regards to recent postings, without naming 
> names:
> Referring to a recent posting and since this is tech talk:
>     There is no such thing as a 1/4 Centimeter! It is either 0.25 cm or 2.5 
> mm!
>     (Or somewhere between 3/32nd and 7/64th's. Maybe 5/48th's?) ;-)
>     In this case maybe 2 - 3 mm would do?  
>     Only in the way outdated US/English measurement systems are both        
>     fractions AND decimals used (for reasons of modern necessity). 
> Roger
> 1074  

um, ok.

when i said 1/4 cm i was not referring to any standarized measurement.  i was 
referring to a decal being off-center by about ONE FOURTH of a centimeter.  
it's not like i measured it with a ruler, i just gave an estimate.  i was 
going to say 1/4 inch off, but then i decided that was too much, so i went 
down to 1/4 cm.  fair enough?

i would never go to a hardware store and ask for a 1/4 cm bolt.  i simply 
meant a fraction of a centimeter. 

1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]