From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 621
Date: Sunday, July 08, 2001 4:35 AM

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There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

2. Re: Delorean Vin#000570
From: "evan" <autotec_at_dml_ozemail.com.au>

3. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: "David Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>

4. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com

5. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com

6. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: sand131_at_dml_aol.com

7. Re: Looking for KS/OK owners
From: "dmczr1" <dmczr1_at_dml_qwest.net>

8. Re: Good address for JZD?
From: senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

9. RE: Heat test
From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>

10. Re: Delorean Vin#000570
From: Dmc3360_at_dml_aol.com

11. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com

12. Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a
From: srubano_at_dml_optonline.com

13. Re: Heat test
From: srubano_at_dml_optonline.com

14. Re: Heat test
From: theshovel1224_at_dml_yahoo.com

15. the end of my cooling problems
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>

16. Re: fans run continuously, strange wiring
From: Todd Masinelli <tmasin_at_dml_madisontelco.com>

17. ADMIN - Heat thread(s)
From: "David Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 01:26:33 -0400
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

How sure are you that the 'performance increase' in your system isn't due to
the double core condenser in spite of using R-134a?

I know a guy locally who recently converted his DeLorean from R-12 to
R-134a.  He is unhappy with the results.  With the R-12 it cooled well, now
with the R-134a he says that it barely cools enough in hot weather, but is
okay any time else.  This guy is also a professional mechanic, SAE
certified, etc.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:36:09 +1000
From: "evan" <autotec_at_dml_ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Delorean Vin#000570

Just thought I'd let you know vin number 510 is road registered & living in
Sydney, Australia. It is owned by Tony Atkins, he seems to think it used to
be owned by John Holmes-a-court before he bought it. Thought you might be
interested, Regards, Evan, vin 2672 also from the land of Oz.
----- Original Message -----
From: <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: [DML] Delorean Vin#000570


> As I have been signing off after posting a message on the DML for
> years Now, with Vin # 000570 as my sign off,I recently picked up a
> digital camera,so I took a pic of Vin#000570 door vin plate and
> posted it in the DML files,as this is the lowest "active" vin on the
> DML that I know of,and I just wanted the DML to know that vin#000570
> is for real,and truly exists,and is not a fiction of my imagination.
>



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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 13:23:10 -0000
From: "David Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

Maybe that's why Grady considers upgrading the condenser an integral 
part of the R134 conversion. It's often been stated - "there are no 
drop-in conversions". Everything has issues, whether its the lower cooling capacity or potential maintenance issues. It is well known that R134 does not cool  exactly the same as R12, uprating the condenser at the same time to  overcome this would seem to make perfect sense. I're really glad that  it's even available!

Dave Swingle


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> How sure are you that the 'performance increase' in your system 
isn't due to
> the double core condenser in spite of using R-134a?
> 
> I know a guy locally who recently converted his DeLorean from R-12 
to
> R-134a.  He is unhappy with the results.  With the R-12 it cooled 
well, now
> with the R-134a he says that it barely cools enough in hot weather, 
but is
> okay any time else.  This guy is also a professional mechanic, SAE
> certified, etc.
> 
> Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 14:36:21 -0000
From: noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> How sure are you that the 'performance increase' in your system 
isn't due to
> the double core condenser in spite of using R-134a?
> 
> I know a guy locally who recently converted his DeLorean from R-12 
to
> R-134a.  He is unhappy with the results.  With the R-12 it cooled 
well, now
> with the R-134a he says that it barely cools enough in hot weather, 
but is
> okay any time else.  This guy is also a professional mechanic, SAE
> certified, etc.
> 
> Walt    Tampa, FL

Hello Walt,

To be honest with you I don't know. I'm just letting the list know 
how my conversion turned out. It could be that the new condenser is 
the cause for the great cooling, but what ever the case may be I 
thought I would share what I did to change my D over and how it 
turned out. Perhaps there is an A/C specialist that could shed some 
light on this for us. I would like to know myself. =)

Thanks And God Bless...
noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com
_____________________

  82 DMC
__         __
    \------/
VIN # 10694
Dec-81 build




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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 14:47:06 -0000
From: noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "David Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_e...> wrote:
> Maybe that's why Grady considers upgrading the condenser an 
integral 
> part of the R134 conversion. It's often been stated - "there are no 
> drop-in conversions". Everything has issues, whether its the lower 
cooling capacity or potential maintenance issues. It is well known 
that R134 does not cool  exactly the same as R12, uprating the 
condenser at the same time to  overcome this would seem to make 
perfect sense. I're really glad that  it's even available!
> 
> Dave Swingle
> 

Hello David,

I just wanted to clarify that Grady did not say i had to replace the 
condenser, I did this of my own choice. The reson I elected to do 
this is 2 full.

1. The old DMC condeser has aluminum fittings and are very prone to 
striping, and I felt as though this could be a potential problem.

2. My old condenser was looking very rough.

One more benefit I forgot to mention is that my car is running about 
5 to 10 degrees cooler (in stop and go traffic with the A/C on) I can 
only assume that this is due to the cooling fans pulling cold air off 
the condenser through the radiator ?????? Im not a certified mechanic 
so I'm sorry I don't have better explanations for what I have 
happening with my D, I can only offer what I did and the results.

Thanks And God Bless...
noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com
_____________________

  82 DMC
__         __
    \------/
VIN # 10694
Dec-81 build




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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:03:10 EDT
From: sand131_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

In a message dated 7/7/01 8:21:22 AM Central Daylight Time, Whalt_at_dml_att.net 
writes:


> How sure are you that the 'performance increase' in your system isn't due to
> the double core condenser in spite of using R-134a?
> 

I tend to agree with Walt on this one. But if that is the case then it will 
be the answer for those who want to switch. Just switch to the larger 
condenser. As I recall; The newer 134 factory equipped cars have larger 
condensers for just that reason. I am no expert It just seems to make sense. 
how about more information on this Super Condenser such as part #s Etc.
Ralph VIN 1606 still R12


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:02:10 -0600
From: "dmczr1" <dmczr1_at_dml_qwest.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for KS/OK owners

Matt,
    I live in Colorado.  There are a few that I remember seeing from Colo. &
New Mexico, probably enough to hold a mini-Delorean meet sometime.
I don't know how soon you'll be ready to look for one, but Michael Pike from
Albuquerque has his under 10,000 mile car for sale right now.  I've also
tentatively put mine up.  No complaints about the Delorean I just have an
itch for a new toy.  They are really fun cars and do attract allot of
attention.  Mine gets way more attention at the cruise nights than my
corvette ever did.  It's uncharacteristic of me to go gaga over a car with
130 hp, but there is just something about these cars that make them very
enjoyable to drive.
Good luck in getting your Delorean.  If you ever get to Colorado Springs,
stop by

Jack Janney
Colorado Springs, CO
719-473-4584

----- Original Message -----
From: <argentum_at_dml_hit.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: [DML] Looking for KS/OK owners


> Hello all,
>
> I'm interesting in emailing/phone conversing with any Delorean owners
> located in Kansas or Oklahoma. 



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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:15:38 EDT
From: senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: Good address for JZD?

[Moderator note - they may hate me for this, but see http://www.deloreancadillac.com This is Mark's dealership.


You should contact his nephew Mark in Cleveland. Mark can forward mail to 
John.



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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:00:35 -0500
From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Heat test

John,
Good point about the fans.  How about putting a speed sensor in the circuit.
That way the fans will still be automatic and you will not have to worry
about them not coming on when needed.

Scott Mueller
DMCNEWS 002981
DOA 5031

-----Original Message-----
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com [mailto:dherv10_at_dml_aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:42 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Heat test


Group, We all know what can happen when a car overheats and the De
Lorean is no exception. I have always heard that if you get over
about 35 to 40 MPH the cooling fans are no longer drawing air because
the out side air due to speed is forcing it's self thru the radiator
and cooling the water. 



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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:42:49 EDT
From: Dmc3360_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Delorean Vin#000570

Yes this is a low VIN for sure.  However a gentleman near me here in NJ owns 
and drives VIN 0520.  I believe he is on the DML but monitors it rather than 
posts usually.  I will have to ask him if he still receives the digest form 
of the DML.  In any event that is the lowest VIN number I have seen on a 
DeLorean being used regularly and not just in storage or on display.  I would 
be curious to know if there are any VIN's lower than that whose owners use 
them even if only periodically.

Gary Gore
Activities Director
DeLorean Mid Atlantic
VIN 3360

> As I have been signing off after posting a message on the DML for 
> years Now, with Vin # 000570 as my sign off,I recently picked up a 
> digital camera,so I took a pic of Vin#000570 door vin plate and 



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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 18:12:17 -0000
From: noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., sand131_at_dml_a... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/7/01 8:21:22 AM Central Daylight Time, 
....As I recall; The newer 134 factory equipped cars have 
larger 
> condensers for just that reason. I am no expert It just seems to 
make sense. 
> how about more information on this Super Condenser such as part #s 
Etc.
> Ralph VIN 1606 still R12


Hiya List,

The part # from Grady's is 106327G

Thanks And God Bless...
noflux_at_dml_yahoo.com
_____________________

   82 DMC
__        __
  \------/
VIN # 10694
Dec-81 build




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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:30:05 -0000
From: srubano_at_dml_optonline.com
Subject: Re: R-12 -Vs- 134-a

Hi all,

There was a previous post that posted a few weeks back concerning 
this. A larger condenser along with an "auto-adjusting" orifice tube 
will make the R134a just as cold as R12...there may be a very small 
degree difference between the two. The reason being that people are 
unhappy with the R134a conversion is that it is done improperly. If 
you just "drop" the R134a into the R12 system then you will have 
unsatisfactory results. Unfortunately the manufactures of the R134a 
retro-fit kit do not state this on the kit. They just recommend 
changing the seals, evacuating the A/C of all the R12 and R12 oil and 
charge it up. If you upgrade the condenser to allow the R134a to cool 
faster along with the auto-adjusting orifice tube...you will have a 
kick ass A/C system.

Steve

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., noflux_at_dml_y... wrote:
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., sand131_at_dml_a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 7/7/01 8:21:22 AM Central Daylight Time, 
> ....As I recall; The newer 134 factory equipped cars have 
> larger 
> > condensers for just that reason. I am no expert It just seems to 
> make sense. 
> > how about more information on this Super Condenser such as part 
#s 
> Etc.
> > Ralph VIN 1606 still R12
> 
> 
> Hiya List,
> 
> The part # from Grady's is 106327G
> 
> Thanks And God Bless...
> noflux_at_dml_y...
> _____________________
> 
>    82 DMC
> __        __
>   \------/
> VIN # 10694
> Dec-81 build




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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:57:48 -0000
From: srubano_at_dml_optonline.com
Subject: Re: Heat test

It's great that you are trying to come up with fixes for the Delorean 
in alternative ways but your fixing something that isn't broke and 
probably will cause more problems with it by relying on a driver to 
remember to turn their fans back on when they come into city limits. 
Hell most drivers forget to turn their headlights off or even on! 
There are cars that have an auto electric fan if the temp in the 
radiator itself increases to an unsafe temp. I have both a mechanical 
fan and an electrical fan in my jeep. The electrical one has a Temp 
sensor threaded into the radiator that monitors the temp in it to 
make sure it never goes above a specified value. It also goes on and 
cycles with the A/C compressor automatically. It's the initial 
startup of the fan that draws the most current...not while it's 
running. Run a more precise test, place a meter on the electrical 
system and watch the current when the fans start up initially then 
note where it drops down to after they are spinning. Now with he same 
setup go for a drive at highway speed and watch the meter for current 
draw. While you are at High way speed the air rushing through the 
radiators and past the fans will be turning the fans thus reduce the 
load on the electrical motors therefore there will be very little 
current draw. Same holds true for a mechanical fan...that's why there 
is a clutch mounted between the fan and the belt pulley because the 
air at highway speeds (or faster) will always spin the fan faster 
than the engine. If your saying that you are trying to extend the 
brush life in the fans...won't matter since the fans will still turn 
on or off at highway speeds.

Steve

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., dherv10_at_dml_a... wrote:
> Group, We all know what can happen when a car overheats and the De 
> Lorean is no exception. I have always heard that if you get over 
> about 35 to 40 MPH the cooling fans are no longer drawing air 
because 
> the out side air due to speed is forcing it's self thru the 
radiator 
> and cooling the water. At this point why have we got the fan's on 
and 
> drawing down the electrical system. Several have posted that they 
> don't have a cooling problem while driving on the freeways or going 
> some where if you don't have stop and go traffic. We'll today I 
added 
> a feature to my Fan Fix to turn off the fans while going somewhere 
> that isn't start and stop and no heavy traffic. It's 88-92 degrees 
in 
<SNIP>
The moral is 
> The car will run on your distance trips with out the fans on all 
the 
> time drawing down the electrical system. And those cold climates, 
you 
> may not need them on all the time either. So, This I will call:
> The Fan Saver.
> John Hervey





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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 21:05:18 -0000
From: theshovel1224_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Heat test

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_y...> wrote:

> Now, if you could devise a temp controlled automatic
> "turn-back-on" switch, I'd say you have something.

There is already one of those temperature controlled turn on
switches in the car.  The otterstat.

John Yeoman





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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>
Subject: the end of my cooling problems

Well, it actually turned out to be a pretty easy fix. Just a quick recap:
my car was running hot. I jumpered the otterstat and discovered that the
fans still shut off at will. It turned out to be that the heater wiring
was connected to the cooling breaker (40A) and the cooling wires were
connected to the heater breaker (30A).

It was a quick 15 minute job to get in there, switch the wires around, and
put everything back in place. I reconnected the otterstat and took the car
out in hot stop and go traffic today. The needle didn't dare get near the
220 mark! It FEARED the 220 mark! A MAJOR improvement!

When I first got the car, I couldn't drive in the rain (spark plug boots),
and lately I haven't been able to drive in the sun (too hot). Now my car
is fully rain and sun compatible. Thanks to everyone on the list
(especially Dave Swingle - again) for all the help in solving this. Trust
me, if you're car's running a little hot, check out those breakers! It
only takes a few minutes.

-Christian




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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:11:50 -0500
From: Todd Masinelli <tmasin_at_dml_madisontelco.com>
Subject: Re: fans run continuously, strange wiring

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here with another question about the
cooling system, but as a new owner I'm really interested to learn what's
going on with my car and if it's normal (or at least not that bad).

After a recent overheating situation, my fans have been running
constantly...so, per the list's suggestion, I pulled one of the otterstat
wires and the fans stopped.  Plugged the wire back in and the fans started
back up.  Okay, so now I know my otterstat is bad and I'll be replacing it
soon.

One issue still remains, though.  After my fans were running for a while, I
reached into the relay compartment to feel for heat.  The fan fail jumper
was a little warm, as was the #112 fan relay (which I just replaced).  I
felt the N/O wire leading to the 40 amp breaker and it was cool, as was the
metal holding the breaker in place.  However, the B/O wire (which the wiring
diagram says should be N/S) was blazing hot.  The plastic shroud covering
the spade connection was hot enough to leave a red mark on my thumb.

What's the deal here?  That wire leads from the fan fail jumper to the
cooling fan breaker, right?  So between those two the wire is building up
resistance that somehow isn't being felt by the breaker or the other wire
leading from the breaker?  I don't understand.

Is there even a problem here?  If so, is it something that my eventual
purchase of a Fanzilla will fix?

Trying to learn and grateful for help,

___________________
Todd Masinelli
VIN 6681 (Nov 81)




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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 02:46:40 -0000
From: "David Swingle" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>
Subject: ADMIN - Heat thread(s)

I realize that this it seems like there are a lot of posts on this 
subject, but it's obviously getting truly hot for the first time this 
year in much of the country, and many of the list-members are seeing 
the impacts of this for the first time.

As long as the posts don't get too redundant, it's valid discussion. 

Dave Swingle




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