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Subject: [DML] Digest Number 730
Date: Friday, October 05, 2001 2:41 AM

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There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: DeLorean Tour Oct 27 & 28

2. Re: who was it??
From: "Chris Parnham" <>

3. Performance Airbox site finished, go there
From: "Cameron Putsch" <>

4. Re: no start problem

5. Re: Solenoids vs actuators / Bob Zilla [long]
From: Martin Gutkowski <>

6. Re: no start problem

7. Re: Solenoids vs actuators / Bob Zilla [long]

8. Re: Performance Airbox site finished, go there

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:53:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: DeLorean Tour Oct 27 & 28

In a message dated 10/2/01 6:17:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:

> the event starts at PJ Gradys in West Sayville N.Y. 

How's the traffic situation around there, in light of the WTC aftermath?  Any 

I live in the lower Manhattan area, just less then a mile from "Ground Zero." 
 Traffic conditions as well as all other daily activities are on a day to day 
basis, especially, if there are officials and special people visiting the 
"Ground Zero," which will affect the traffic rules.  Yesterday, October 3, 
President Bush had visit the public school PS 130, which is across the street 
where I live and where I also work at the afternoon program.  President Bush, 
Gov. Pataki and Mayor Guliani went to visit the children, that witness the 
WTC event.  As President Bush past by past in front of my house yesterday in 
his limousine, he gave me the "thumbs up."  I returned the thumbs up and I 
saluted him.  I was the only one there, besides the police officer on 
assigned to oversee my building.  President Bush's visit, had "locked down" 
the whole lower Manhattan from 7 AM to 2 PM.  I couldn't even leave my 
building, until he had left and they mean it!

So far, the only traffic condition that is in effect, is that all vehicles 
traveling INTO Manhattan during the hours of 6 AM to 12 PM noon, from Monday 
to Friday, must have two or more people.  This is in effect for the all 
bridges and tunnels and traveling south bound below 63rd Street.  You will be 
turned away or  possibly be fined if you are alone.  The exceptions are: 
emergency vehicles, livery plates, federal, state or city operated vehicles 
and people who are "special officials."  

Of course, this can change right after I post this.

Since the DeLorean event is held on the 27 and the 28, which is a weekend, it 
shouldn't affect us, unless you are returning via or thru Manhattan early 
Monday morning the day after.

BTW, I do hope to attend the meet, if my schedule permits.  I do need a brake 
from work and all of the activities in this area.  See you, if I can...  

Kayo Ong
Lic 9D NY

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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 23:03:27 +0100
From: "Chris Parnham" <>
Subject: Re: who was it??

Almost certainly Royston or Edward Hammond, DOC UK membership number 186,
who incidentally I supplied a new ( spare)fuel tank to today.

Chris P DOC UK.....why don't you sign up Carl?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl" <>
Subject: [DML] who was it??

> I am gutted!  My son walked to the bus this morning going to school and
saw someone get into a Delorean (stainless) and drive away!  On MY street!
> Carl    Pantymwyn, N.Wales


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:29:33 +0200
From: "Cameron Putsch" <>
Subject: Performance Airbox site finished, go there

I finaly got the site done. It is called Putsch Performance Designs. You'll find my airbox there along with lots of info on it.

Go to:  it is case sensitive

I hope you enjoy, Casey at 

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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 23:03:51 -0000
Subject: Re: no start problem

If your having a problem with the Idle Speed Circuit, there is one 
easy way to find out. Hold the gas pedal about  way down, and start 
the car. The engine should fire up. But when you take your foot off 
the pedal, the RPM's fall at a normal rate. Only now they will drop 
down to 0 and kill the engine.

It sounds to me like you have a bad ground connection. I did have a 
problem with a wire that went bad in the circuit. But I don't think 
you are having the same problem that I did. You said before that you 
grounded the connection, and everything worked ok after that. So this 
sounds like you had the problem already diagnosed/cured. I am curious 
though as to where you grounded the connection at (I'll explaine why).

Now, there is one more thing. The microswith doesn't just turn the 
Idle Speed Circuit on. It also activates a small solenoid on the back 
of the engine. That's why there is an inline diode to prevent 
feedback (section D:05:02). What is tied into this circuit is a 
vaccum solenoid. The EXACT operation of this solenoid and it purpose, 
I'm honestly not 100% sure. I think that it kills that vaccum 
connection between the distributor, and the thermal switch to prevent 
enrichment of the fuel durring idle. In other words it kills the 
vaccum to the Control Pressure Regulator. Although the lines do also 
conect up to the engine. But since it is tied in a way to both your 
problems (vaccum/engine performance & idle speed electrical 
connection), it is something that you will want to investigate. I 
would reccomend that you first call your friendly DeLorean vendor for 
a complete explanation of the circuit, as well as a diagnosis. 
Perhaps the 2-prong connection on the back is dirty, and just needs 
to be cleaned.

I hope this helps you track down your problem by shedding a little 
more light on the subject w/a differant angle on things.

vin 6585


Message: 5
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 00:17:11 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <>
Subject: Re: Solenoids vs actuators / Bob Zilla [long]

Hi Bob

We haven't spoken before, and I should explain that my DeLorean is currently on
the "high seas" on its way to Southampton to meet me... I have not had any first
hand experience with the mechanicals in a DeLorean, but I have a lot of
experience with DC electric motors, actuators, solenoids, and I guess it's fair
to say, cars in general.

I want to take you to task over some of the things you've said - just for the
purpose of healthy debate, I promise!

> Actuators as a rule are not designed to output sufficient torque to open our
> doors which require an uncommon amount to do the job. EVERY actuator we've
> tested contained an EXTREMELY UNDERSIZED motor and had plastic gears.

And later:

> Upon internal inspection you discover, of the 6 very tiny gears, 3 are
> plastic. The motor is 1" long by 3/4" wide. Stop and draw a mental picture of
> this. The gear on the motor shaft is plastic with a 1/4" diameter. Let me
> remind you, you are opening your door with a 1/4" plastic gear.

Oh come on! Any engineer will agree that you can tow a bus with a motor that size
as long as it's geared down enough. Both a solenoid and a motor operate on the
same principle - electromagnet driving rare earth magnet. The difference is the
gearing. The power of a motor is given by its torque x speed. Now with an
actuator obviously it's the torque that matters most, so you gear it down and
reduce the speed. With a solenoid, you have no such gearing, so you have to make
that single acting electromagnet as chunky as possible. Disadvantage of the
actuator: it's slower...

Additionally, the enemy of any motor or coiled device of any sort is HEAT. What
damages a motor (or solenoid) is powering it and not allowing it to move - but if
you could keep it cool while you stop it moving, it'd never blow up. My point: An
actuator will work for a very small duty cycle - perhaps 1 second in half an hour
- and that's at a busy car show. I would be amazed if the motor inside got
anything more than slightly warm to the touch after several consecutive

In fact, seeing as actuators are most often used on locks, I think you'll agree
that they are DESIGNED to be able to handle the torque of not being able to move
at all. Why? Because when popping the lock, the actuator must be supplied with
power for longer than it takes to pop the lock. Unless you employ some control

So the fact that you "don't like the sound of the actuator labouring" is only
arguable from an aesthetic point of view - the device is designed to take being
stalled. It's just usually used in an application where it stalls instantly (as
the lock reaches the end of its travel) and you don't hear anything other than
the little "grunt" as the power is dropped and the gearbox relaxes.

> For those of us old enough to remember Audio Cassettes, I can tell you that
> these small DC motors that pulled the tape around failed with regularity.
> Product failure analysis was once my domain. There have been few ( if any )
> advancements in mini 12V DC brush driven motors in the last 30 years.

I would disagree with you strongly there, but the reason I know is not

> So now, the goal is to generate enough torque with a Walkman size motor to
> open our doors for many many years ?

A walkman motor would be an S1 motor - ie designed to run constantly
(indefinitely) at a given power. For intermittent use, you can get a helluva lot
more torque from the same sized motor, but in S2/S3 configuration simply because
you know it can cool between uses. These have fatter coils and fatter brushes.

> The "Launch" solenoids we are
> using are Custom Made & particularly well suited to the task Insuring
> Longevity and the ability to open the door with Authority.

This I agree with - having a quality "thunk" rather than a whining gear driven
mechanism IS more pleasing :-)

> New or old technology ?
> There's nothing new about actuators. The concept dates back to the invention
> of the motor itself. Should someone ever create an actuator with all metal
> gears and a motor of reasonable size, then you've got something to get
> excited about. I'm not holding my breath till then as there doesn't seem to
> be a real market to sell it to.

Have a look at - in "my other life" I build robots and
although I have not used these guys I have seen a gorgeous 500g screw actuator
capable of outputting over 2000N. Basically whatever application, large or small,
these guys will have an actuator for it. BTW these are linear actuators and not
the type we're discussing here.

> Actuators are filled with highly torqued plastic moving parts. A solenoid has
> exactly 1 hefty moving metal part and unlike actuators, it's action is
> instantaneous.
> Thoughts on Longevity anyone ?

All five actuators in my 12-year-old Citroen BX's central locking system are
still working after 180,000 miles. And they're REALLY cheap nasty plastic things.
And yes, all five stall for about half a second at every operation.

> No Modifications.
> As mentioned on a few occasions, our system does not require ANY headliner
> removal to achieve independent door control. No wires are cut or spliced. No
> wires are run in the headliner or through the door hinge. Everything just
> plugs in with the assistance of the "Launch Controller".

Erm, don't you need a torsion bar adjustment to cope with the extra weight?

> As soon as the work is completed on TranZilla ( the upcoming Shift Computer
> for automatics ) a new era in Toy Development will unfold.....

THIS I look forward to!!!

Best WIshes



Message: 6
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 23:18:19 -0000
Subject: Re: no start problem

Correction to my last post. The explanatin is located in page D:08:01 
of the workshop manual. My bad, the pages were stuck together by ink 
from when I left the manual in my car for a week.

vin 6585


Message: 7
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:06:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Solenoids vs actuators / Bob Zilla [long]

In a message dated 10/4/01 8:26:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:

<< Erm, don't you need a torsion bar adjustment to cope with the extra weight?
   In a previous post to the DML, Bob Zilla already addressed this.  Here is 
what he said...

ADDED WEIGHT & Door adjustment ?
This will likely be on a case by case basis.
Yes, you are adding a few pounds to each door so you would think you'd 
certainly need to readjust your doors.
After installation, I would FIRST change the door struts BEFORE you adjust 
the torsion bar. You may not want to touch the torsion bar at all, the jury's 
still out here.
Personally, I was surprised to see how much of a difference Rob Grady's 
struts made. It may become a matter of taste ie. how much "lift" you want 
from your doors & how fast you want them to snap to attention. I prefer doors 
that droop just a bit. This way I don't have to mussel them down EVERY time I 
close the door. But, this doesn't seem to be the case with the Grady Struts. 

Nick Pitello
<A HREF="Http://">Http://</A>


Message: 8
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 20:51:43 EDT
Subject: Re: Performance Airbox site finished, go there

I finally got the site done. It is called Putsch Performance Designs. You'll 
find my airbox there along with lots of info on it.


  Nice web site. It looks like you've got quite a few good ideas to work on.

  I do have a question about you're new air box. You state it is guaranteed 
to give us more horsepower and is the "Cheapest and Easiest horsepower you 
can buy for a Delorean." I'm interested in the numbers. What kind of 
horsepower increase are we talking about ?  5hp - 10hp - 20hp ???  And what 
kind of RPM increases can we expect from our engines ? And how about the 
torque numbers ?  Do you have some dyno charts you could post to the list to 
show us a comparison between a stock Delorean airbox and your new unit ? How 
much additional power are we gaining for our $250 investment. 
   Also, if your new airbox flows more air, does this mean we will need to 
have the fuel mixture adjusted to add more fuel also ? Is this going to 
affect the gas mileage any ?
    Thanks for any info you can supply. 


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