From: <>
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Subject: [DML] Digest Number 781
Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 3:25 AM

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There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Reverse
From: "Paul Salsbury" <>

2. Re: Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

From: Lance Haslewood <>

4. RE: Re: Headlight Switch Problem.
From: "Scott Mueller" <>

5. RE: melted heater hose
From: "Scott Mueller" <>

6. RE: What other cars used the PRV-V6
From: "Marc A. Levy" <>

7. TA Bolt questions
From: Les Huckins <>

8. Any Michigan D owners?

9. Rear anti-sway bars for sale
From: "Walter" <>

10. Mike Pack
From: "Marc A. Levy" <>

11. steering column removal....

12. Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

13. Re: need engineering info to make sway bar

14. Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

15. Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:07:11 -0000
From: "Paul Salsbury" <>
Subject: Re: Reverse

Thanks to all who helped

I now have two very bright reversing lamps, for the first time last night I
could actually illuminate every light on the car sine I took ownwership.

Not  a drop of "Gorrila snot " needed ..........



----- Original Message -----
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: [DML] Reverse
> The manual transmission reverse light switch in connected via one
> green/brown wire and one light green wire. The light green is 12 v sourced
> from fuse #16 and the
> green brown wire leads the reverse lamps at the tail light circuit board
> harness.
> DMC Joe
> DeLorean Help


Message: 2
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 03:39:27 EST
Subject: Re: Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

i definitely will want to replace mine if a stronger bolt is available for 
Bill K


Message: 3
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:41:07 +1100
From: Lance Haslewood <>
Subject: TYRE WEAR

I would like to thank all those who responded to my query regarding the 
excessive tyre (rear tyres) wear on my 'D'.  You have been a big help.  In 
relation to Scott Arnold's comments regarding  tread wear rating; 
unfortunately Aussie tyres do not display a tread wear rating which makes 
it difficult to determine the density of the rubber.

I have taken the car to the service centre which fitted the tyres and they 
are looking into the matter.

Is there a method by which to check the alignment of the rear wheels?  I 
shouldn't imagine that the alignment would be a problem, however I would 
appreciate any feedback that may suggest otherwise.  I note that the left 
tyre has worn slightly more than the right.

Lance Haslewood


Message: 4
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:58:27 -0600
From: "Scott Mueller" <>
Subject: RE: Re: Headlight Switch Problem.


Post your schematic for the modifications in the DML archives.  I am curious
about this mod.


Scott Mueller
DMCNEWS 002981
DOA 5031

-----Original Message-----
From: Jan van de Wouw []
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 2:25 PM

I bought a new Lights Master Switch, which I put in while I was
replacing my radio.
I also put in a second relay that gets powered after the
ignitionswitch, switching the power for the headlights,
so when I turn off the ignition, only the perimiter lights
stay on and the headlights can be flashed.
JAN van de Wouw


Message: 5
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:12:15 -0600
From: "Scott Mueller" <>
Subject: RE: melted heater hose

Don't feel bad Pete.

A couple of years ago, I changed my hoses, detailed my car and trailered it
to Townsend, TN for a British Car Gathering.

I drove the car 300 yards/meters from the Hotel to the Show area.  One of
the hoses came off of the Heater vacuum valve.  This completely trashed the
engine compartment and I ended up placing third.

It seems that I must have forgotten to tighten the hose clamp.  The other
DeLorean owners helped me get the cooling system filled and evacuate the air
from the system.

Fortunately, the majority of stories I have to tell have happy endings.

Scott Mueller
DMCNEWS 002981
DOA 5031


Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:44:27 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <>
Subject: RE: What other cars used the PRV-V6

It does not crank backward..  the fire order is different, but the
direction of spin is the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: [DML] What other cars used the PRV-V6

Thanks Mark.
Would you know offhand if there would be any problems associated with
spinning/cranking an Eagle version backwards?



Message: 7
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:56:59 +0000
From: Les Huckins <>
Subject: TA Bolt questions

I'm wondering why those truly in the know don't post.  Where are our
vendors, those who do repair work in quantity, what do they think, what
do they do?  I can't believe they check every TA bolt on every car that
comes in, that's neither logical nor reasonable.  Which bolt is in
current favor?  That there have been failures is a given but what
percentage and under what conditions?

Toby feels that those who do not push the cars all that hard will very
likely not have bolt failure.  Added to that, those who engineered the D
were not amateurs, quite the opposite, lots of experience.

It's quite likely that every car of every make has had some examples of
bolt failure at points of strain, the usual replacement has nearly
always been the factory original bolt.

While we are thrashing around trying to come up with good answers based
upon either limited experience or what we hear from others with limited
experience, the guys with the best answers are not saying anything.

Here's my read: we support the vendors, they support us.  I'm waiting
for vendor input on this issue.



Message: 8
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:46:56 -0000
Subject: Any Michigan D owners?

I was wondering if there were any Delorean owners in the Detroit area 
that are on the list?  As a new owner, I'd like to get together with 
someone who's had their car a while and see if they could give me 
their driving impression...acceleration/suspension/etc.. especially 
before the winter months start and the garage work begins :)



Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:57:26 -0500
From: "Walter" <>
Subject: Rear anti-sway bars for sale

In the process of having new front bars made, I discovered that the company
still has some add-on rear sway bars in stock.  Go to the following link: and do a search under DeLorean.  There they will have
the rear sway bar listed.  They cost under $200 and have the option of
either rubber or urethane bushings.  I got urethane.  I let y'all know how
it fits.

Yep, that was cool.
Walt    Tampa, FL


Message: 10
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:00:23 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <>
Subject: Mike Pack


If your out there, please contact me.  Your e-mail address no longer
works, and your phone also seems to be out of order.



Message: 11
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:26:27 EST
Subject: steering column removal....

Hey guys,

can someone tell me a good way to 'slide the middle steering column link into 
the lower universal joint'.  it looks so simple but it's hard to get a good 
grip on it.  maybe if someone has a good trick to this it would be much 
easier?  i have the pinch bolts removed and it will soon be soaking in liquid 
wrench.  i know someone on here (was it you, Robert?) had this same problem 
but i can't find it in the archives.  i know whomever it was finally was able 
to get it.

also, i know it is important to keep the steering column pointed straight 
ahead when re-installing it.  what can i do to make this easier?  where are 
the critical points on the column pieces that must be aligned the same way 
they came off?  i would like to mark them with a razor blade or marker so i 
have them back in correctly.  

any tips are greatly appreciated!

1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 12
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:36:01 -0000
Subject: Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

In addition to my studies of the trailing arm bolts, I took a good 
look at the rest of the rear suspension.  I agree that it would not be 
the best solution to convert to a spherical bearing or other solid 
(non-isolated) joint.  The current rubber bushings absorb a lot of the 
"shock loads" from the trailing arm.  With a solid attachment, such 
as heim joint, ball joint, or spherical bearing, I don't think that 
the frame would survive for very long, without some extensive 
redesign.  The noise transmission into the passenger compartment would 
be noticeably worse.  IMHO, a medium durometer urethane bushing would 
be a good step up from the rubber.  The urethane is much more stable, 
and would still allow a certain amount of compliance in the 
suspension.  It would increase the noise a bit, but I think that it 
would be manageable.  I have a rear sway bar in my car, with 
teflon-lined spherical rod end attachments to the trailing arm.  A 
urethane trailing arm bushing arrangement would be a very good 
compliment to the sway bar.  I also think that urethane bushings for 
the attachments of the upper and lower lateral links would be good.  
Rotating joints don't have as much of a problem with "shock loads", 
but noise would, once again, increase a little.  Is there an existing 
vendor out there with some of these urethane goodies?    

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Mike Griese" <mike.griese_at_dml_w...> wrote:

> The rubber bushings used to isolate the trailing arm from
> the rest of the frame is no different an application than
> using rubber bushings to isolate other suspension or powertrain
> components from the frame.  Removing these items or replacing
> them with heim joints, spherical joints, or ball joints will
> transmit a lot more vibration and harshness to the
> passenger compartment and possibly adversely effect
> handling by removing compliance from the suspension
> attachment points.


Message: 13
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:41:59 -0000
Subject: Re: need engineering info to make sway bar

I also have a rear sway bar, and the improvements to the cornering and 
overall stability have been very dramatic.  I am continuing to tune 
and tweak the suspension setup ... I have installed urethane bushings 
for the front sway bar attachments to the frame and to the lower 
control arms.  Noise is up a bit, but my car handles awesome.  It will 
be interesting to see what comes of this project to improve the front 
sway bar.  I'm not sure that we need too much more stiffness, but we 
almost need to try it to determine that for sure.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> Walter
> I installed a rear sway bar in my car.  I think it handles better.
> BoB


Message: 14
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:57:11 -0000
Subject: Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

The weight distribution is not the same on the Lotus.  The DeLorean's 
weight is behind the rear axle.. Lotus is in front.

Maybe this is why the design of this area on the DeLorean is so 
weak.  If the Lotus engineers simply "stole" the design from the 
Eprit to put on the DeLorean but did not account for the difference 
in weight distribution, that could be the reason for this "error".

As for the "new and improved bolts", I am no fastener expert but I do 
know that a bolt that is less likely to bend may be more likely to 
break.  While this may have been explained in the messages posted (a 
lot of it was over my head), Id rather have my bolt's bend than break 
unexpectedly.  When they first bend, it gives me some time to find 
the defect and replace the bolt.  With a harder bolt, I may not have 
any warning that it will break.

I sent copies of the previous messages discussing the bolts to a 
mechanical engineer friend.  Hopefully he will explain it all to me 
in English when he has time to read over it.

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Mike Griese" <mike.griese_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> There have not been any pervasive problems with trailing arm
> attachements on the Esprit.  The suspension geometry is
> very similar and uses similar components.  


Message: 15
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:52:54 -0000
Subject: Re: Trailing Arm Bolts - Engineering

David - You are quite correct in your assessment that the tubes and 
sleeves will collapse if the torque is increased significantly.  I 
installed the new bolts at a torque level of 50 ft-lbs, with a 
copper-based anti-seize compound applied to the shank and threads.  
That is the same value as the "stock bolts" as I recall.  Forgive me, 
but I ran some numbers today on the preload in the bolts caused by the 
installation torque.  I wanted to see how much tensile stress we put 
on the bolts by torqueing to that level.  It revealed some interesting 
information ... without going into the calculations in detail, a 
torque of 50 ft-lbs on the TAB with grease on the threads and shank 
would create a tensile (tension) stress of about 116 KSI.  (Remember 
that 1 KSI = 1,000 PSI).  If the threads on the bolt and nut are 
perfectly clean and dry, the tensile stress value at 50 ft-lbs of 
torque is 48.3 KSI. Trust me on this ... it just works out that way.  
The actual preload is probably somewhere in between those two 
extremes, but it varies depending on the cleanliness of the hardware.  
The average of the two is about 82 KSI.  If you are brave enough to 
muscle through a previous post of mine, the maximum allowable tensile 
yield stress on the stock bolts is 103 KSI.  We are probably coming 
close to yielding, or stretching, the TAB every time it is torqued.  
The variation could also explain why some people have a problem with 
their TAB's , and others do not.  My custom bolts have an allowable 
tensile yield stress of 200 KSI, so they would only get to about 1/2 
of their capability at maximum torque.  Okay ... I'm done.  I just 
thought that you'd like to know.

BTW - What are some of these other solutions that vendors have come up 
with?  I haven't seen "The Fix" for this area yet ... just a lot of 
hand-wringing, and guessing.  Please advise.   

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., jtrealty_at_dml_w... wrote:
> All of what you wrote was interesting but it comes down to putting 
> more stress on the bolt then it will see in service by torquing it 
> above that level. If you go overboard you will collapse the metal 
> spacer in the radius arm bushing pn 106716. As is usually the case 
> cannot improve an entire system by changing one part. It usually 
> a reengineering of the entire system or you just move the weak point 
> to somewhere else in the system. Before you continue you should 
> discuss this with a Delorean vender as they have all "been 
> that" and now have a good way to fix this weak area. There is no 
> substitute for experience so before starting on a new project like 
> this you should get all of the history that you can.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757


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