From: <>
To: <>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 789
Date: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:17 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:

To search the archives or view files, log in at

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: TA Bolt questions

2. RE: M9 1.00 bolt?????????
From: "Mike Griese" <>

3. Re: watch

4. Re: Re: TA Bolt questions

5. Replica SS panels

6. Re: watch

7. Re: Leatherique Please read
From: "flash66" <>

8. RE: trailing arm bolts
From: Darryl Tinnerstet <>

9. Re: Re: More Sunstar Model Woes...How to fix your Woes
From: "dan g." <>

10. Re: TA Bolt questions

11. New Owner Questions

12. Re: M9 1.00 bolt?????????
From: Bob Brandys <>

13. Re: Replica SS panels

14. Fuel Injector Question
From: "Eric" <>

15. Epoxy on frame?
From: "Ralf Philipp" <>

16. Re: Re: TA Bolt questions
From: "Ralf Philipp" <>

17. Brake System Leaks.

18. Sun Star
From: Les Huckins <>

19. Re: Fuel Injector Question
From: "Dave Sontos" <>

20. Re: New Owner Questions
From: "Joseph Molino" <>

21. Re: Courtesies relay?!?!?

22. Re: Fuel Injector Question

23. Re: RE: trailing arm bolts and front lower control arms

24. Bent
From: wmack <>

25. Brake Booster

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:07:46 EST
Subject: Re: Re: TA Bolt questions

I would just like to reiterate. The 10 year old bolt 12.9 I took out of the 
car was slightly bent. When I showed it to another De Lorean he couldn't even 
tell it till I pointed it out.Maby 1/16th over all distance. I would think 
this is pretty good for a 10 year old bolt in a turbo car. The spec are great 
that Toby is pulling out, but how will it perform in the car under adverse 
conditions. If you drive sensible there wouldn't be a problem. Apparently  
Colin Chapman thought the 10.9 would work fine or he wouldn't have approved 
it. Maybe he did over look it. But others long ago up graded to the 12.9 with 
no problems. Keep up the good work Toby, It's intrusting reading all about 
what your research is yielding.
John Hervey 


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:49:52 -0600
From: "Mike Griese" <>
Subject: RE: M9 1.00 bolt?????????

Andy - Point your browser to  They
have every kind of fastener imaginable with reasonable prices
for single pieces.


-----Original Message-----
From: []
Subject: [DML] M9 1.00 bolt?????????

hey guys,

drill it one more time and tap it for the next size up in his kit - 9M 1.00 (i
assume 1.00 is the threading).  anyway, that worked well so now i go the
hardware store for a 9M bolt... uh oh.  turns out there is no such thing as
a 9M bolt



Message: 3
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 04:49:10 -0000
Subject: Re: watch

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Gabriel H. Prado" <gprado_at_dml_j...> wrote:
> I saw that watch on a Delorean web site, but can't find it now.
> any clues?
> Gabe

I had posted a pic of that watch in the dmcnews files section,but has 
long since been deleated,however a real nice closeup pic can be found 

if the pic,does not show go to Yahoo Groups Home page,and then type 
in Deloreanews,once on that site,look in the files section.

Windsor CT.


Message: 4
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:57:20 EST
Subject: Re: Re: TA Bolt questions

Joe, With due respect you most of the time disagree with me. So what's new. 
The testing you do or the factory did was for a short time. I'm talking about 
fatigue over time and weather conditions. Constant pulling, stretching, and 
jerking, not just popping the clutch a few times and I pronounce you good, 
lets talk about it over years and maybe one, or two clutches later. Come on, 
You can go have a heart check up tomorrow and every doctor says your OK, then 
drop dead tomorrow. Everybody knows someone this has happened to. I agree, 
with you and relinquish to your time of working on the De Lorean that the 
trailing arm bolt it probably a mute point, But, I think to the folks up 
north who have to worry about salt spray and rusting it's more of a 
pronounced problem. I hope Toby can come up with a reasonable priced bolt to 
help ease the mind of some. But I to have worked on cars all my life also and 
do know a little. The Delorean is a car not a God and a bolt is a bolt. You 
can't test something for a short period of time and pronounce it good. Why do 
you think the military went to a salt spray test and most mechanical parts 
failed in the late 70's and eighty's, they found the conventional testing 
wasn't sufficient? Race car drivers spend $1000.00's and still have a bolt 
failure. Thanks for your comments, I always enjoy the exchange. By the way, 
have you shipped my parts yet.
John hervey


Message: 5
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:04:17 -0000
Subject: Replica SS panels

Looking at my Sunstar 1/18 Delorean model,I was amazed at how 
realistic the finish on the"stainless steel" body panels looked,My 
question,if anybody can answer it is,is it possible to achieve the 
same results,or duplicate the process,as used on the 1/18 sunstar 
model on a REAL Delorean,using non-stainless steel panels,maybe 
panels or other materials,besides Stainless steel.

Windsor CT. 


Message: 6
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:07:43 EST
Subject: Re: watch

Gabe and others, Over a year ago  my wife ordered the Machine Watch III out 
of the American Air lines catalog. I think this is the catalog # AAPA700. 
Phone # 800-515-5110. Cataog # was TE0340 for the watch and the price was 
$39.00. It had lots of SS products in it.  
John hervey


Message: 7
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:33:44 -0500
From: "flash66" <>
Subject: Re: Leatherique Please read

The original post was mine that was mentioned. I really tried to get the
list to use leatherique instead of Lexol. No there ARE NO DRAW BACKS TO
ANYTHING! this stuff is wonderful. The rejuvinator oil works as indicated
with no bad after effects Just glove soft new feeling leather if used as fogged windows, hurting your skin, or what have you. Just a
great product that works. It will give you a new interior . the feeling
,smell and apperance are all improved. If your leather is cracked or faded
,the dye George can mix for you as well as their crack filler will make the
leather look like new regardless of the damage to the leather if used
properly. It truly is one of those products that are truthful in their
claims. Buy it, try it, you wont be sorry you did. I have sucessfully
restored the interiors of my D and my Lotus Esprit, as well as my wifes 91
Infinity Q45.
The results are nothing short of amazing!!! Words of the wise, Tell George
or the lady that answers the phone that Paul from Georgia sent you and that
if you mention you belong to a club
you should get a free bottle of prestine clean for you leather.

All the best,
-Paul Catignani #16811
Vidalia Georgia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Garbade" <>
Subject: Re: [DML] Leatherique

> Would appreciate an experienced (with Leatherique) person's input on this.


Message: 8
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:15:40 -0700
From: Darryl Tinnerstet <>
Subject: RE: trailing arm bolts

Toby said:
> However, if the trailing
> arm bolt fails, the joint is completely lost.  There is no redundancy,
> no alternate load path.  A critical component with no back up, whose
> loss could result in catastrophic loss of control or major damage to
> the car.
As I noted earlier, I find it interesting that Chevrolet (where we all know
John D. used to be employed) solved this problem on the Corvette way back in
1963 by putting the rubber bushing in the end of the trailing arm and
supporting the bolt at both ends.  The bolt was not subject to flexing, and
if the bushing wore out or failed it was still held in place by the arm and
bracket.  So why did DMC/Lotus do it the way they did?  We will probably
never know.  But we do know that the stock bolts, and any of the previously
available replacements, are the weak point of this design.  Like the fan
fail relays, window motors, angle drives, and door struts, its not a
question of IF they will fail but WHEN they will.  But the others seldom
have catastrophic results.

I think we need to accept the expertise, research, and engineering Toby
brings to this subject, compared to the suggestions of some with
significantly less credentials.  If you weren't convinced of that after
reading Toby's 11/15 and 11/16 posts, you need to go back and read them

And John, a double or triple plated 12.9 bolt is still a 12.9 bolt.
Probably even less due to hydrogen embrittlement after plating.

For the record the bolts in my 300HP car are frozen in place.  Luckily they
are not bent, but I know they (and I) have been on borrowed time for a long
while.  Whether or not this venture goes forward, one of Toby's prototype
sets will be installed this winter.

Darryl Tinnerstet
Specialty Automotive
McCleary, WA


Message: 9
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:30:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "dan g." <>
Subject: Re: Re: More Sunstar Model Woes...How to fix your Woes

"How many other specialty car owners can say that they
have THIS much support for their marque!"

- Us Turbo Buick owners ;)

and prior to that, Monte Carlo SS owners heh

I got my Sunstar DMC-12 yesterday...and the BTTF
version is on order...I don't have the real
thing...Yet, but this is at least a start ;)

BTW - I love the attention to detail the owners of
DMC's do have and even though I don't own one yet, I'm
honored to be a part of this list.


Dan G.
87 Turbo Regal

Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals


Message: 10
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:54:48 -0000
Subject: Re: TA Bolt questions

I am very glad to see one of the more respected contributors to the 
List, and to the Delorean community at large, adding comments to this 
ongoing discussion.  I truly believe that everyone can learn 
something from focused dialog.  I will agree that the incidence of 
total bolt failure due to fracture has a relatively low rate in the 
overall fleet.  However, the bolt bending and corrosion issues have a 
much higher degree of incidence from my limited experience.  I've 
personally had one break, and the other bend, so I am particularly 
sensitive to this.   As I recall, in the seven cars that I worked on 
at the tech session that I mentioned, including my own, we found 5 or 
6 that were bent, 1 or 2 others that had wear grooves or other marks 
on the shank from joint component movement, and 2 or 3 other with 
corrosion and rust.  So, on the low side, there were 8 bolts that had 
some form of challenge.  The bolts in my car were fresh due to the 
earlier failures, but I put in the custom bolts anyway.  Based on the 
analysis of my fractured bolt, using a scanning electron microscope, 
it would appear that any stress concentration could eventually lead 
to fracture.  Corrosion pits, and wear grooves seem to be an 
invitation for a crack to start, particularly at stress levels that 
are high enough to cause yielding (bending and/or stretching).  It 
would be very interesting to get a sense of how many owners have 
experienced TAB problems, ranging from wear, to corrosion, to bending 
and yielding, and to complete failure.  My limited experience would 
suggest between 1/3 and 1/2 of cars currently in active duty.  Those 
are pretty high numbers for a critical joint with no significant 
structural redundancy.  Would a poll be useful?  I don't really know 
the protocol because I'm relatively new to the list.

BTW - The current list of "interested parties" for the custom bolts 
is at about 40 - 41 sets.  In discussions with Darryl at Specialty 
Automotive, a reasonable threshhold of 50 - 55 sets would give us the 
confidence to move forward with the necessary upfront investment.  I 
will keep you all updated as the project nears a launch point.  Let's 
keep up the good dialog.

Toby Peterson   VIN 2248

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> John,
>The trailing arm bolt failure problem is highly exaggerated and 
>actually has a very low incident rate. Yes; it should be of concern 
>to all owners who have not inspected and or replaced damaged 
> DMC Joe
> DeLorean Help dmchelp_at_dml_a...


Message: 11
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:41:19 -0000
Subject: New Owner Questions


Well on my birthday (15th) i brought home my DeLorean from Ohio.  It's 
an 82' grey leather 5 speed, with grooves in the roof and delorean 
emblem.  The one nice thing about it was it was in storage in the last 
8-10 years, so it is beautifuly preserved, with under 7,000 miles, but 
needs some minor mechanical work.  The previous owner had attempted to 
clean some of the fuel out and throw some new in.  Which seemed to 
work ok, but still has alot of bad gas in it.  He also sent the old 
alternator out to be fixed because it failed, and the place that did 
it destroyed.  So now i am installing a new 144 amp delco alternator. 
 My first question is,  is there a way to suck the old gas out w/o 
removing the whole tank?  I had attempted to to stick a narrow pipe 
down with a pump i have, but it didn't work well.  I also installed a 
new 900+ amp battery and was able to get the car to run,  but you 
could tell bad gas was the culprit for the bad idle.  There is a very 
small amount left in it,  could i just throw some cleaner/and dry gas 
in it was a good amount of high octane fuel to clean it out?  Another 
thing the previous owner did was to cut the catyltic convert off and 
jerry rig some sort of pipe to it,  would the converter being off also 
effect the idle?  I think i asked enough questions for this post,  
back to working on my car.

- Shain


Message: 12
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:50:43 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <>
Subject: Re: M9 1.00 bolt?????????

That good old 9M x1 x 12 bolt. Yes, I had the same problem when building the 97
DeLorean. Since the car was originally
a 5 speed these were not on the crank shaft.

This is a real bolt size but is rearly used because of the 1.0 pitch.  I believe you can
get these through DMC or the other vendors now.

5 years ago, I had to have these machined up for my cars from metric fasteners in Burr
Ridge, IL. Not cheap but without them .....

BOB Brandys


Message: 13
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:55:14 EST
Subject: Re: Replica SS panels

I suppose making some kind of replica body panel might be possible, but would any DeLorean owner actually want to do that and have that on their car?

I say "Raise the Dies!"  :-)



Message: 14
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:32:11 -0000
From: "Eric" <>
Subject: Fuel Injector Question

I "THINK" I may be on to something, but I need the advice of a CIS 
pro.  I am troubleshooting a fuel problem. I removed each of my 
injectors and placed them into individual metered cups. I jumpered 
the RPM relay (to activate the fuel pump). Then deflected the air 
sensor plate to measure what each injector was "injecting". Each one 
sprays in a perfect pattern, and each one sprays an equal amount of 

Now comes the question - with the air sensor plate not deflected, and 
the fuel pump still running; I noticed each injector is DRIPPING. The 
dripping stops when I cut power to the fuel pump. When I reconnect 
power, again not deflecting the air plate, the dripping starts again -
 on each injector.  Is this normal? Or is this a sign of weak 
injectors? Or am I totally off base, could this be an indication that 
the pressure regulator in my fuel distributor is not calibrated 

If I didn't know better, the injectors look fairly new. The part 
number on each is Bosch 0437 502 022 (014).

I am trying to troubleshoot the most enigmatic "over-rich" problem. 
Watching my Lambda system work perfectly, trying to lean out the car -
 but it can't lean it far enough.

As always I remain appreciative of any help.

VIN# 5557
Dunedin, FL


Message: 15
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:24:08 +0100
From: "Ralf Philipp" <>
Subject: Epoxy on frame?

Hi list!

It is well known by now that the Delorean frame has got a Epoxy based
coating. But does anyone on this list know what exactly was used? I have got
big problems finding a way to strip the whole frame. If I knew exactly what
was used, it would be surely much easier (for an material expert) to find a
way to dissolve this material.

Any infos? Manufacturer, product name? 2-compound or 1-compound? Hardened by
heat treatment?

Where the frames coated in the Dunmurry plant, or was this done by another




Message: 16
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:32:15 +0100
From: "Ralf Philipp" <>
Subject: Re: Re: TA Bolt questions

> it isn't a hot rod. Toby also has liability to be concerned about when
> to offer something that hasn't been tested in any kind of road or driver
> condition.
> Driver will be the worse.
> John Hervey

John! You suggested a SS316 bolt. May I ask the question, if this one is
"road or driver tested"?

Honestly, I hope it is not. The person who intends to do so will risk his

Why does a person who has obviously not much knowledge on this topic doubt
the research and development of an expert? I really can't understand this.

But back to the facts:
It is surely not o.k. if a bolt is stressed beyond its limits and bents. A
bent bolt is the beginning of a big problem. There is not the question if it
will fail, but when it will fail.
It may take some time, even years, but a bent bolt is prone to failure.

As long as the frame is concerned:
I don't have any hard numbers on this one, but I trust that it can handle
the load of even abusive driving conditions. The force which can occur at
the TA bolt area cannot rise indefinitely but it is limited by the friction
of the tires on the ground. You can think of many abusive conditions:
Popping the clutch, doing a 180-turn, emergency stop, etc.. I am sure that
there are many drivers out there who do this kind of things from time to
time. But I never heard of a frame failing or even bending (except two
cases: if it has extensive rust damage or in an accident).

You say that your 12.9 bolt was only "slightly bent". So what is the
difference for the frame if the "Toby"-bolt doesn't bend at all? My opinion:
the additional stress caused by the "Toby"-bolt is highly negligible. I bet
one could not even measure a slightest difference.

"Road Test":
If I understood Toby right, he has the new bolts installed in his own car
and in other cars. So there is indeed a road test going on at the moment.

Posting his opinion is surely not a crime, but thinking one could replace
knowledge by opinions is the wrong way. True research and development is not
based on opinions and guesses but on knowledge and facts (which have to be



Message: 17
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:15:59 -0000
Subject: Brake System Leaks.

The seal between the reservior, and the brake master cylinder on my 
car is starting to leak pretty good (this seems to happen whenever 
the temp drops below 60F). Since I can't seem to find any seals for 
the tank, and there is a fair amount of sludge in the bottom, I 
figure I'll just pick up a new master cylinder. I'll get the kit from 
PJ Grady with the seals for my calipers as well. But, I do have 1 
question; Since I have sludge in my system, I figure that I'll flush 
it out. As has been stated before, this will cause leaks in the 
system around seals. So other than the seal to the brake booster, and 
the calipers, where else should I be prepared to expect leaks? I 
really wan't to keep "surprises" to a minimum.

vin 6585 "X"


Message: 18
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 01:28:17 -0800
From: Les Huckins <>
Subject: Sun Star

Got mine, beautiful!  Incredible detail!  Driver door stays up,
passenger door, no.

To paraphrase a DMC comrade, "if the door on a toy car is the only thing
you worry about staying up, you're in an enviable position."


Message: 19
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:47:17 -0500
From: "Dave Sontos" <>
Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Question

Make sure your system pressures are correct first (65 psi). If they are then
the leaking injectors must be replaced.

The definition of a leaking injector is "If a drop forms, falls from the tip
of the injector and is replaced by another drip."

High System Pressure is usually a result of a plugged return line or
inoperative system pressure regulator inside the fuel distributor.

Dave Sontos
vin 02573

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric" <>
Subject: [DML] Fuel Injector Question

> Now comes the question - with the air sensor plate not deflected, and
> the fuel pump still running; I noticed each injector is DRIPPING.



Message: 20
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:03:47 -0500
From: "Joseph Molino" <>
Subject: Re: New Owner Questions

drop the tank.  It is not that hard at all and if you don't get all of the
gunk out, you might clog your fuel distributor which is very expensive.
Also bad gas might cause some valves or plungers to stick.  I dropped my
tank and it was so worth it.  Everything worked on my car.  Clean it out.


vin 2850

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
Subject: [DML] New Owner Questions

> small amount left in it,  could i just throw some cleaner/and dry gas
> in it was a good amount of high octane fuel to clean it out? 
> - Shain
> #10140


Message: 21
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:44:45 -0000
Subject: Re: Courtesies relay?!?!?

As you may already know that this "white relay" is not acctually a 
relay it's a delay circuit.  The problem with blowing all of the 
fuses is most likely not an issue with the lights or wiring but is a 
problem with the module.  I know this is hard to understand that 
lights still work when the module is removed but, this is because 
they designed light circuit to be passive (for some very odd reason, 
possibly future upgrades?).  The module pulls the high side (+) of 
the light circuit very close to ground thus diverting the current 
through the module instead of the the lights (shutting the lights 
off). Inside this little white box is a very complex R/C circuit with 
the final stage controled by an transistor (basicly, a timer with a 
voltage controled switch).  The transistor is far to small for the 
amount of current that it controls and considering that when the 
lights are off the module is still operating with a heavy load on the 
transistor, thus promting a possibility to fail.  What probibly 
happened is that transistor inside overheated and shorted out and 
instead of limiting the current it was a wide open short to ground.
A while back I was curious why my interior lights would almost dim 
and flicker before they shut of, so I opened up the box and mapped 
out the circuit.  In my case the capacitor inside was bad.  I also 
had plans to redesign this circuit but never got around to it. 

Vin# 3157   

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> Hello, I am wondering if you have any advice for me
> on this problem(?) Well,
> the other day I noticed that my internal lights and
> door lights were not
> turning on.


Message: 22
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:22:09 EST
Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Question

Eric, Sounds to me like it's working. If your running rich, then the pressure 
needs to be checked and possible air flow meter adjusted. If the pressure is 
to rich, then the primary pressure shim may need to be added. The spring over 
time gets weak. This part of the rebuild of the fuel distributor.
John Hervey


Message: 23
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:39:40 EST
Subject: Re: RE: trailing arm bolts and front lower control arms

Darrly, This why I said we will put them thru the Baking to remove the 
Hydrogen. The double plating is extra for corrosion in adverse conditions. 
While were talking about metal stress, Have you looked at your front lower 
control arms for cracking and stress. You can also have a fatial  situation 
on your hands when the front lower control arms breaks. You better check 
them. More are being fixed as the cars get older and driven more. We do have 
the new ones but they arn't around $65.00.
John Hervey   

In a message dated 11/17/01 9:50:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

<< And John, a double or triple plated 12.9 bolt is still a 12.9 bolt.
 Probably even less due to hydrogen embrittlement after plating >>


Message: 24
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:34:28 -0500
From: wmack <>
Subject: Bent

I have a big question.  My friend was leaving my house tonight, and he 
accidentally hit my Delorean.  He put a dent in it in the rear drivers side 
panel, just underneath the signal marker.  My first question is what are the 
chanses of my pulling out the dent?  And second is how do i go about taking 
that panel off?

   Vin 5043


Message: 25
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:40:55 EST
Subject: Brake Booster

Hi List,
     Ever since I've owned my car I noticed that it takes a lot of pedal 
pressure to to slow the car down.  The car has a new master cylinder and the 
lines were all properly bled(no leaks).  The car is still driveable but I 
would like to get this fixed before I head to Memphis next June.  Several 
people who have driven my car noted that something was wrong with the pedal 
pressure.  Is there a way to test the booster?  or should I look elsewhere 
for the problem.  The car has 21k miles on it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to