From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 795
Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:37 AM

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There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine
From: "Dan RC30" <Danrc30_at_dml_hotmail.com>

2. Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

3. DeLoreans magazine & politics
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

4. Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine
From: DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com

5. Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine
From: Frank Augustine <franka_at_dml_charter.net>

6. Re: NJ owners?
From: gmfm07011_at_dml_yahoo.com

7. momo wheel
From: "Cameron Putsch" <putsch.1_at_dml_osu.edu>





Message: 1
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:04:34 -0500
From: "Dan RC30" <Danrc30_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine

James,
Why is my name included in the reply to Marc Levy's post to the DML? I had nothing to do with this post, nor did I have any input. Why am I being attacked publicly like this? If you wanted to know what issues I have with you, you could have certainly contacted me privately, and I would have been more than happy to discuss them with you. If I remember correctly, there were many times that we saw each other at the Eurofest event in Ireland. If you were genuinely interested in resolving any issues that you believe exist between you and I,  you certainly had an opportunity to do so in Ireland as we attended many of the same events together. I feel it is very unprofessional to attack me in this manner in public and to use the DML as a levering tool to do it. To imply that all people on the East Coast bring your name up at any event is quite presumptuous and incorrect. As a matter of fact, I recently attended an event in Long Island, and you were certainly not the topic of discussion. Also, Steve (I'm assuming Rubano) and Michael Pack, weren't even in attendance at that gathering. So to include these other people in your response to Mr. Levy's post is also improper in my opinion. If you'd like to discuss with me any concerns you have about my opinions or feelings towards you and the company you work for, then you should've contacted me privately. Again, I see nowhere in Marc Levy's post where my name or anyone else's was mentioned beside Marc Levy's himself. I don't know why you decided to defame me or others in your response to Marc's post on the DML. Marc stated in his post about the "DeLoreans" magazine was his opinion, and his only. If you have any questions about Marc's post or his opinion on anything, I suggest that you direct them to him privately. In conclusion, I don't know why you have chosen to take another persons post on the DML, where I was never mentioned in any way shape or form, and use it as an attack on me.

MODERATORS PLEASE NOTE: I'm simply responding to a post which was an attack on my character by Mr. James Espey of DeLorean Motor Company in Houston, TX. I was not the author of the original post, nor did I see mention of my name anywhere in that post. Thank you.

---Dan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:46:27 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine

James (and anyone else who is still interested in this thread),

[I cut out all of the original text to save space on the archives and
digests] - Marc

If we count the number of pages (including the front and back covers,
and the 2 pages for the table of contents) then I would agree than 50%
is a high estimate.  But, even with your count there are about 7 pages
of obvious advertisements (30%) but if we also count the embedded
"plugs" it is MY OPINION that the majority of the magazine is designed
as an advertisement.  Can we call the letter from Stephen Wynne an
advertisement?  Obviously you know my opinion on the "news" article, and
tech tips.

On the News section, this article would have been just as interesting
without the need to again "plug" the vendor who Ace purchased the car
from.  Instead, this "article" reads more like a informational
advertisement with Ace as the "satisfied customer".  The subject of car
going to Costa Rica takes a quick back seat after the second paragraph
to the detail description of why one should choose to purchase their car
from Houston.  I invite you to try and re-read the article from a
disassociated point of view.

Why would it be a secret to readers of this magazine that the door
handles are also available from other vendors?  Or maybe at some point
you will allow them to advertise in DeLoreans magazine for a reasonable
fee?  This way, Houston makes money on both ends (Houston will charge
the vendor to advertise the product that they buy from Houston).

You also say "...as 'deloreans' is for time being supported by DeLorean
Motor Company..." So, will Houston be somehow separating the magazine
from the service and parts company?  Will it be truly independent, or
will there be the "black cloud" of question surrounding it like there is
on the DML since you appointed the new keepers?

I do agree James, that you and I have been in disagreement before in
this public forum.  I see no reason to discuss this privately because
there is just no point to it.  As I said before, the purpose of my post
was to share my opinions.  I was not looking to resolve anything, if I
was I would have contacted you directly.  I do agree with you, my post
may not have been constructive but again that was not the intent.

No, I wont be writing an article on the Zilla products.  I would expect
you to invite Bob "Zilla" to do this if Mr. Elwood believes that the
readers have a interest in it.  I don't think there is any subject I
could write about that would be of interest to the readers of DeLoreans
magazine. Unless maybe you would like to publish my opinions of the
magazine?  Or is the 1100 readers of the DML is a large enough audience
for me to embarrass myself in front of. :)

Even after reading your well written response to me, It is still my
opinion that the intent is to fool the subscriber into thinking they are
reading a legitimate magazine.  The fact that you charge a subscription
for what I believe to be a book of advertisements is reason enough to
keep this opinion.  Would you buy a book about buying a television
published by Sony?  Obviously there is a conflict of interest for Sony
to tell you the benefits of their competitors.  As far as I know, Sony
does not sell such a book but they will send you all of the glossy paper
propaganda for free.

No one needs to own the name "DeLorean Motor Company" or the DMC logo in
order to improve the image of the marque (did I get the spelling right
this time Les?) I don't see how securing the logo protects the
investment Houston has made.  Is someone misusing the logo?  Can you
elaborate on what the intentions are for the use of this trademark?
Will other vendors be restricted from using it?  Will clubs no longer be
able to put it on their tee-shirts?  Honestly, I don't expect it to go
that far but my point is I don't see how it is being protected.
Meanwhile, I did speak to JZD's lawyer about this and they are unhappy
that they do not own "DeLorean Motor Company" and were surprised to find
out that the logo DMC was re-registered by Houston (when I told them).
He did not say if he had spoken to anyone in Houston or not about it.

On that same topic of the DeLorean "Image", Id like to make you aware
that it is likely that the good feedback makes it to you and Stephen
more often than the negative.  There are instances where Houston, and
you personally (James) have turned people off to owning a DeLorean.  I
know of one case where someone has left the DeLorean community as a
result of some "things", I have been asked not to share details.

I'm glad our opinions were entertaining for you. You seem to classify me
as someone who thinks you're trying to take over the (DeLorean) world,
and in some ways you are correct.  Obviously you (and I hope Stephen)
are aware that there are a significant number of people in the community
that believe this is the goal of Houston.  But, that is OK for a
business to have that goal (Heck, Microsoft has done well with it).  My
issue is that it be done in an ethical way, and the idea of a vendor
(ANY vendor) selling a magazine is a step over the line of what is
ethical in business.  Maybe I am one of those who just don't "get it",
or maybe I am one of those that can see the emperor is naked.

Is there a need for a Magazine? Maybe.  Need for an alternative to the
DOA and DW?  I think so.  No one did it?  Well, that is not really true
because as we discussed recently it had been tried before with no
success.  I still don't think it is appropriate for a vendor to do it.
Please don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back, because there
is a very obvious business purpose to this magazine that is not included
in your "two-fold" purpose.

I will not deny that the Espey/Houston topic is discussed occasionally
among people at our events (I don't like the way you group us all
together, I only speak for myself), if there is a desire in Houston for
opinions to change then the actions should change.  Opinions will not
change with words.  A good example is the recent discussion about
torsion bars.  Why is it that last year in Cleveland you were telling
people that there were "plenty in the warehouse, both sides" and now we
hear stories of people (in the northeast) calling Houston and being told
there are no more.  It would *SEEM* to me that maybe supplies are
running low, and Houston is being selective about who they sell to.  I
am sure you will have a plausible response and reason for this
situation, but the appearance of the situation will likely NOT change
without a change in action and attitude.

Your offer of an olive branch would imply that there is a war.  I assure
you, I have no vendetta.  I also am known to hold a grudge for all of 10
minutes.  A peace offering is only necessary in a war, and from my point
of view this is not the case.  I honestly just wanted to share my
thoughts and opinions with the rest of the DeLorean community.  How you,
Stephen, or the reader decide to act on those opinions is up to you.

I will admit that I am uncomfortable dealing with the Houston
organization, and it has been 3 years since I purchased directly from
them.  It is no secret that this timeframe loosely coincides with your
(James) addition to the organization.  This is not due to any grudge or
dislike for you, just that I am uncomfortable with the situation.  I
don't see any point in discussing this any further because as I said
above, discussion will not change my opinion only long term actions and
attitudes will.

Marc Levy
(Just a regular owner of #6068 and #1860, and enthusiast)




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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:59:30 -0500
From: "Walter" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: DeLoreans magazine & politics

My suggestion for DeLoreans magazine is to make an electronic copy of it
available on the internet for free in addition to the paid subscriptions.
If it is meant to be a sales tool & ad magazine, then distribute it to as
many people as possible at the lowest cost.  I read every part of my free
copy and thoroughly enjoyed it.  It does come across as a sales brochure,
but perhaps that flavor will change with future issues.

In James Espey's defense, I will comment on how I see both sides of the
situation.  Throughout history, people tend to belong to one group at the
expense of being excluded from another.  Such it is with politics,
religions, sports, etc.  In our microcosm, we are a collection of DeLorean
aficionados.  Yet we are cliquish and tend to divide ourselves in our own
territories (or in our case could it be called vendor loyalty?)  This has
nothing to do with our group in particular; it is just human nature.

It is easy for people to unintentionally give e-mails a nasty tone when
really they were just trying to communicate opinions.  When we meet in
person at the DeLorean events, we can all deal with each other as real
people and not text on a computer screen.  Then we laugh all our social
blunders away and have a great time playing with our cars.

Walt    Tampa, FL

P.S. to James -- the olive branch is still growing.  :)




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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:46:19 -0000
From: DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com
Subject: Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine

I'll be honest, I missed the original posting that was replied to 
here when it first came out. But I did want to respond to a couple 
of items here. I'm not jumping onto the dogpile, nor am I trying to 
take sides. 

<SNIP>
> > 90-second tech tip on how to replace the armrest cap??  Is 
there anyone
> > out there that needs to read how to do this?  More likely to 
just put
> > the idea in our heads that we should consider replacing this 
warn part
> > on our cars..
<SNIP>

Technicly, no, I don't need instructions. Why? Because when I 
order the caps they'll probably come with them! :) I like the ads in 
the magazine. They help to alert me to new products. There will 
come a time when my DeLorean is finally complete. I'll have the 
old parts repaired, replaced, and all I'll need to do is my regular 
maintenance. I look forward to that day, and I also fear it. What 
will I do then? So it's nice to know about little items that I can add 
onto my wishlist to keep me occupied.

<SNIP> 
> > Then we have a one page-er on how terrible the Yahoo map 
service is.
<SNIP>
> > I don't see what this all has to do with DeLoreans, how is 
this at all
> > related?
<SNIP>

Yeah, I was kinda scratching my head on that one too. But as an 
IT person, and a driver, I can kinda relate & understand where 
the article is comming from. Up untill last year, all the online 
maps only shown one road to get to my house. None had the 
new streets listed. Maybe this will be a permanent feature 
related to automotive/technological rants. Do a write up about 
how Autozone doesn't have DeLorean in the system, but 
refrences listings for even more obscure cars like DeSotos. I'd 
read that!

<SNIP>
> > Don't try and dupe the DeLorean community in to paying a 
subscription
> > for your propaganda, it will have a negative impact on your 
credibility.
> > There is a obvious conflict of interest when a vendor tries to 
market a
> > magazine to serve owners and enthusiasts.  The purpose of 
a business it
> > to make money (to serve itself, and it's investors) in a 
ETHICAL way.
> > This has always been the root of the anti-DOA crowd, 
frustrated with the
> > strong ties between DeLorean One and the DOA.
<SNIP>

Ok, I have to be honest. That statement does irk me. While I 
cannot speak for other DMLer's here, please don't lump me in 
with a "profile" of people who refuse to join for what ever reason. 
Blaming Ed Bernsiten for not having a DOA membership is like 
blaming spoons for Elvis being overwieght. While there may 
somehow be a relationship between the two in their actions, that 
isn't the real reason. My reasons ( and possibly others) are 
directly related to interactions with the DOA itself. For myself, this 
has been both via contact on the internet, and from live 
interactions. Some items were subjects that were not agreed 
upon, up to outright rude & negative comments about me (and 
even my car!) directed to both myself and others. So my reasons 
are not what you assume. And I imagine that this would also be 
true for a good number of other people here on the list as well.

To put it another way, Ed & D1 could drop off the face of this 
planet, and I would change my mind about a membership with 
the DOA. Of course I stated this once before, and was sent a 
message off the list stating that the DOA wouldn't have me 
anyway. But that's another story...

I'm not trying to make waves here, but I'm certainly not going to 
get caught in someone elses wake. Try not to make 
assumptions about cetain issues like this. It almost sounds like 
a "write-off" about lack of membership. While there may be one 
person on the board that many people don't agree with, there are 
plenty more who are more than willing to be "right".

A couple of fellow DeLorean owners that I have met over the 
course of time stated that they were in the DOA simply because 
of the prestige of being in a specialty marque's club. Nothing 
more. They browsed DeLorean World, and that was about it. 
Only attended 1 or 2 expos, and never went back. Mosty they 
collected the magazines for a collection of memorabilia if they 
ever sold the car. I kinda got the felling they reguarded the 
magazine about the same as they did mechanic's bills. Just kept 
them for show.

Oh, and as far as credability is concerned, I've called DMC 
Houston, DeLorean Services, and PJ Grady before about 
shipping questions and the like. Most time I got the info I needed 
right away. But never once did any of them hangup on me, or tell 
me that  they were "...busy with a paying customer." It's poor 
customer service that will do in a bussiness, not a small 
magazine with a couple of ads for the publisher inside. Plus 
while I'm no MENSA member, I don't see the unethical side to 
things.

Just my take on things here.If you have a different view of things, 
I'm open to hear your opinion.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:14:20 -0600
From: Frank Augustine <franka_at_dml_charter.net>
Subject: Re: Comments & Suggestions from Marc re: deloreans magazine

At 05:26 PM 11/14/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>I got Marc's message about the magazine last Wednesday (the 7th) right
>before I left town (returning yesterday). I held on posting my
>reply (below) to the DML until my return so that anyone who desires to take
>me up on my offer at the end of the message may do so.
>
>James
>---------------

I'll keep my reply short ....  Good job on the new magazine James ...

I'm the quiet type and rarely post, but I do read many of the posts 
here.  At a time like this I'll voice my support for a new publication. 
(advertising or not)  It's easy to criticize someone for creating a new 
magazine, but no one is forcing anyone to subscribe.

Frank
vin #4181 since 1983




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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 03:53:42 -0000
From: gmfm07011_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Re: NJ owners?

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Ebe5173_at_dml_a... wrote:
> Hey guys, Any NJ Listers out there?
> Looking for local guys in my area for a look & See and advice.....
> 
> 
> Frank
> 93 Sport 300 Lotus Esprit
> Future Delorean owner
Hi Frank,
     I am in North Jersey as is David T. I run the local Delorean 
club. We were inactive this last year, but will be active again in 
2002. Get in contact and we can talk.
Thanks,
Gary Masie(an original owner since 83)




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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:18:30 +0100
From: "Cameron Putsch" <putsch.1_at_dml_osu.edu>
Subject: momo wheel

I'd like to put on a mono wheel and wondered what hub might fit the car. 

Casey 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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