From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 820
Date: Thursday, December 06, 2001 9:42 PM

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There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Custome Delorean Models
From: "delorean502" <delorean502_at_dml_excite.com>

2. Re: Torsion Bars
From: "spaceboy_2912" <seanm_at_dml_atlcom.net>

3. Grounds
From: "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_hotmail.com>

4. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>

5. Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Jack Stiefel" <jack_at_dml_sacketmansion.com>

6. Re: voice instead of buzzer?
From: "dmcnorway" <delorean_at_dml_online.no>

7. Re: Re: voice instead of buzzer?
From: Horseman of PA <the_horseman_pa_at_dml_yahoo.com>

8. RE: Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Chris Parnham" <chrisparnham_at_dml_cwcom.net>

9. Re: Broken Louvre
From: Jan van de Wouw <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl>

10. parking brake dragging too much?
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

11. Re: heli-coils in rear hub carrier
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

12. Torsion Bars
From: Brent Beecher <brentbeecher_at_dml_yahoo.com>

13. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

14. Re: Torsion Bars
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

15. Re: Torsion Bars
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>

16. Cincinnati St.Pats Parade
From: P12C16_at_dml_aol.com

17. RE: Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Mike Griese" <mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>

18. Re: heli-coils in rear hub carrier
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

19. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: njp548_at_dml_aol.com

20. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "dmcxii" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>

21. Re: Custome Delorean Models
From: "gr8old1" <Gr8old1_at_dml_aol.com>





Message: 1
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:28:23 -0000
From: "delorean502" <delorean502_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: Custome Delorean Models

HI, I don't know if anyone is interested, but I created a group for 
the 1/18th scale Delorean model.  nothing major, just a place for 
people to discuss the customization of their models, outside of the 
DML.  The group name to lookup is customedeloreanmodels.

Seeya in Memphis!




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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 20:04:00 -0000
From: "spaceboy_2912" <seanm_at_dml_atlcom.net>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

I have replaced two of these bars on different cars. One was a 
passenger side that snapped about six to eight inches from the 
bracket. The other was a drivers side that snapped about an inch from 
the hole where it enters throught the fiberglass body. In both casses 
I noted that the break had appeared to have started some time before 
the the torsion bar gave out, due to a dirty part then a clean part 
of the break.
Later,
Sean


> > 
> When a torsion eventually breaks with use, at what point along the 
bar do
> they usually break?  I know that scratches can create fractures, 
but what
> I'm asking is if there are any particularly vulnerable spots?  Why 
I ask is
> because I have noticed that the bar sits very close to the rear 
hinge and
> might possibly get scored by it.  Is this a real problem or just 
looks that
> way?
> 
> Food for thought.
> Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:51:59 -0500
From: "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Grounds

Over the last few months I have been a member of this list, I keep seeing 
reference to checking "all" the grounds.  Great idea; however, are these 
identified (hopefully with photos) in a central location?  That would 
helpful to me since if I tried to extract it from the manuals and/or trace 
cables I would likely miss something.

I would be happy to create a document with photos if someone can point me to 
"all" the grounds.  (Of course with my travels it could take a while to do.)

In addition to this, does anyone put any type of protective coating on the 
grounds after they have been cleaned?

Ed
10541


<<snip>>
>inserted into each other. Inspect all ground connections including the
>main one on the frame by the front left wheel. If the problem


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:44:39 -0000
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

Hi,

<snip>
> [moderators note: 
> The bars are made to twist in one direction based on which side of 
the car they're designed for. That's the reason they use a different 
configuration for each side's retaining bracket. They were imersed 
in liquid nitrogen and then when they reached a specfic temperature 
they were given a specific number of twists in a direction dependent 
on which side of the car they were to be for. This lined the .] 
<snip> 

True, from what I have heard the torsion bars are designed to only 
twist one way and are therefore specific to each side of the car. 
But are the torsion bars straight? the only reason I ask is because 
if they are you could then possibly install a LH torsion bar 
backwards into the RH door. 
You would have to change the brackets but at least then, as far as 
the torsion bar it concerened, it is still working in the right 
direction.

Could this be done as a last resort?

Regards

James RG
UK






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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:36:42 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: "Jack Stiefel" <jack_at_dml_sacketmansion.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

what is one of these LH side bars worth?  I have one that I have had in my
garage for a while and never thought about selling it until this discussion
came about



Jack & Virginia Stiefel

81 DeLorean Vin 03461

88 Jaguar XJ-SC V-12

2001 PT Cruiser

-------Original Message-------



From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:43:10 PM

To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [DML] Torsion Bars



I have replaced two of these bars on different cars. One was a 

passenger side that snapped about six to eight inches from the 

bracket. The other was a drivers side that snapped about an inch from 

the hole where it enters throught the fiberglass body. In both casses 

I noted that the break had appeared to have started some time before 

the the torsion bar gave out, due to a dirty part then a clean part 

of the break.

Later,

Sean





> > 

> When a torsion eventually breaks with use, at what point along the 

bar do

> they usually break? I know that scratches can create fractures, 

but what

> I'm asking is if there are any particularly vulnerable spots? Why 

I ask is

> because I have noticed that the bar sits very close to the rear 

hinge and

> might possibly get scored by it. Is this a real problem or just 

looks that

> way?

> 

> Food for thought.

> Walt Tampa, FL







To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:

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To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo
com/group/dmcnews 



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.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:30:11 -0000
From: "dmcnorway" <delorean_at_dml_online.no>
Subject: Re: voice instead of buzzer?

[ Moderators note: this subject has generated a number of responses with almost all simply saying "ya, the 300Z had this" or something to that effect. Therefore I'm ending this with this post]



Nah, no-one offer this, but when I sat up the poll, I thought of it 
to be a cool idea. At least its bound to be better than the crappy 
buzzer ;) Enough interest may trigger a development of such a unit 
and being offered for sale. I'd be interested in it! :)

The other post regarding an already available system is interesting. 
Maybe some of you who live in the states can find this as a used part 
on the Caddys and Datsuns and whatever cars that featured this. Hope 
its compatible with the DeLorean...

So tell me, can such a device simply be a plug and play module (like 
those old computer cartridges?)

Best wishes
Stian Birkeland
Norway

VIN # 06759

PS! TWO OF MY POLLS ARE GETTING A GOOD INTEREST NOW. GO AND VOTE! 
BOTH POLLS WILL BE CLOSED ON DEC 20TH AND THE RESULT WILL 
AUTOMATICALLY BE MAILED TO THE DML.

THE FIRST POLL IS ABOUT NEW UPGRADES TO THE EXISTING DELOREAN
THE SECOND POLL IS ABOUT A HYPOTHETICAL NEW DELOREAN


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Cameron Putsch" <putsch.1_at_dml_o...> wrote:
> I was checking out a poll and one of the options was a female voice 
saying fasten seatbelts instead of that crappy buzzer. Does anyone 
offer this? 
> 
> Casey at putsch.1_at_dml_o...
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:03:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Horseman of PA <the_horseman_pa_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: voice instead of buzzer?

[ moderators note: please contact wayne off the list.]  


If people are interested I will start constructing a
prot type modual that will simply bypass the buzzer
abd use this new modual to minitor the doors. it's
quite simple really and I have a great lady friend who
has a killer voice. I'd be interested in just makeing
it for my car, when it doubt, build it, retro it,
tweak it. :D

Wayne

> Nah, no-one offer this, but when I sat up the poll,
> I thought of it 
> to be a cool idea. At least its bound to be better
> than the crappy 
> buzzer ;) Enough interest may trigger a development
> of such a unit 
> and being offered for sale. I'd be interested in it!
> :)
> 



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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:06:09 -0000
From: "Chris Parnham" <chrisparnham_at_dml_cwcom.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Torsion Bars

On the Subject of torsion bars, Earlier this week I had a long conversation
with a recently retired Lotus employee who was deeply involved with the
DeLorean project. His name is Brian R....
He spent many months travelling between Belfast / Lotus factory / Germany,
where the early door design was done.
He tells me that the first design was for a door using the torsion bar
only...which indeed worked well in practice.......until some people worried
about what would happen if the torsion bar suddenly broke.
 People could loose a hand/or foot if the door suddenly came crashing down!
This is when they came up with the idea of the torsion bar and a gas strut
sharing the load.
 It looks as if some of the fears were well founded!

Chris P DOC UK

-----
. Especially when adjusting the bars they can move
around and touch the hinge. This is how one broke on me. Fortunatly
the door was closed at the time and it was a right side bar. Never go
near the torsion bar with anything metallic except at the end to
adjust it.





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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:07:06 +0100
From: Jan van de Wouw <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl>
Subject: Re: Broken Louvre

Louis wrote;

> The "spine" of my louvre in broken.
> No missing parts.
> Does anyone recommend an epoxy?

Take a look at http://www.pjgrady.com/stainlessmain.asp
they have a kit that can be in stalled onto the spine to
reinforce and/or repair it.

I have no experience with this product, but since it's
from Grady it should really be worth it's money...

Good luck,

JAN van de Wouw
Thinking Different...   Using a Mac...
Living the Dream...   Driving a DeLorean...

#05141 "Dagger" since Sept. 2000

------------------------------

I will be changing e-mail adresses soon; please use <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl> from
now on. <jan_at_dml_vdwouw.demon.nl> will cease to work in the near future.




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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:05:54 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: parking brake dragging too much?

I installed a rear brake caliper only on one side so far and noticed that
the emergency brakes are dragging just a bit.  Is this a bad thing?  I
haven't put the regular brake pads on yet.  This condition exists while the
emergency brake cable is disconnected.  Is there some sort of adjustment
that I haven't noticed to loosen the emergency brake pads so that they don't
touch the rotor?  Or is it okay for them to lightly drag on the rotor?  This
is a new rotor, and I don't want to overheat it.

While working on this, I noticed that the hinge pins/bolts that hold the
emergency brake to the caliper had galled a bit when I removed them.  So I
replaced them with ones from a junker.  I was really surprised to see what
was previously done to the junker.  Someone had removed a hinge pin and
didn't put it back together properly so that the hinge on one side was just
flopping around.  From the uneven wear on that pad and the excessive wear to
all the pads in general, it looks like someone used the hell out of them.
My only guess is that the previous owner must have been into stunt driving
by locking up only the rear brakes to spin out.  Strange.  Maybe that
explains why the car was wreaked.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:06:58 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: heli-coils in rear hub carrier

Today I just noticed that one of the bolts that hold the caliper to the rear
hub carrier had the threads damaged.  Since there are two identical ones, I
couldn't tell at first which heli-coil was responsible.  So I ended up using
a tap to chase the threads on both heli-coils.  Barely any metal was
removed.  It is quite a job getting a tap in there.  After reading about how
Toby says that cut threads are not as strong as rolled threads, I figure
that a heli-coil must be even worse.  In light of this, I didn't re-thread
the damaged bolt.  I got another one from a junker.

I'm not asking a question with this post, really.  I'm just saying that
chasing the thread on a hub carrier heli-coil was needed and has been done.
Does anyone think this is a bad thing to do?

Walt    Tampa, FL

P.S. to Bill Buckner -- yes I know... tenacity! :)




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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:10:25 -0800
From: Brent Beecher <brentbeecher_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Torsion Bars

Well, the group is finally hitting on what _I_ do for a living, so I thought
I'd contribute.  Copyrights, by definition, do not cover "useful articles",
only artful expressions.  The only protection anyone could have obtained for
the torsion bars (they are useful articles) would be a patent, which has
since expired.  No permission is necessary to recreate them.  If they were
patented, however, then the patent on file with the PTO teaches the
invention.  I haven't looked to see if it's there.  If I get a moment, I
will.  If anyone is thinking or recreating them in some other way, that
other way may be covered by a different patent, presumably belonging to
someone else, so some care should be used with creativity...


Brent Beecher
#893
PNDC
Proud owner of a set of Toby bolts





If I recall correctly, John DeLorean personally holds the copyright on the
torsion bars.  If so, anyone who wanted to make up a new supply would need
his permission. In any case, I'd like to know what the vendors intend to do
about this.  (James...?)
-Wayne A. Ernst
DMCTech Group




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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:24:32 -0000
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

Walt had pointed out that it may be possible to create a custom 
forward hinge for the driver's side door that would have a splined 
bore in it rather than the hex bore.  The forward end of each torsion 
bar is a hex shape, and the aft end is splined.  As Walt hinted, it 
may be possible to reverse the bars if the hinge was changed, and also 
the retention bracket in the back was changed to have a hex bore.  
This would definitely represent a worst-case scenario, because two new 
machined parts with broached bores (splined and hex) would be 
relatively spendy.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248 
Winged1

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_b...> wrote:
 
> But are the torsion bars straight? the only reason I ask is because 
> if they are you could then possibly install a LH torsion bar 
> backwards into the RH door. 
> You would have to change the brackets but at least then, as far as 
> the torsion bar it concerened, it is still working in the right 
> direction.





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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:42:36 -0000
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

Sean - What you are describing is classic crack propagation due to 
fatigue.  That's what my broken trailing arm bolt looked like.  A 
crack starts in an imperfection of some sort (corrosion pit, scratch, 
manufacturing surface defect, etc.) and grows slowly through the 
thickness of the part every time it is stressed.  At some point, the 
cross-sectional area becomes too small to handle the stresses, and the 
crack shifts into fast crack growth, until you reach a kind of 
"critical mass" , and then the part fails due to ductile rupture.  
With a scanning electron microscope, you can actually count the 
striations, and estimate how many stress cycles the part went through 
for each of the crack growth phases.  Isn't the mechanics of materials 
a fascinating subject?

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "spaceboy_2912" <seanm_at_dml_a...> wrote:

> I noted that the break had appeared to have started some time before 
> the the torsion bar gave out, due to a dirty part then a clean part 
> of the break.
> Later,
> Sean
> 





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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:31:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Brent Beecher wrote:

> If they were patented, however, then the patent on file with the PTO
> teaches the invention.

Reading up, the patent on the torsion bar and on the door designs are
(respectively):

Patent #4,092,180 (Manufacture of Torsion Bars) [1978/05/30]
Patent #4,378,658 (Mounting for a vehicle door) [1983/04/05]

Cheers.

Noah
VIN #2867

"Just as others may choose clay or stone or paint, I and my compatriots have
chosen stupidity as our medium. But stupid must be worked and mastered like any
other material; during this experimental stage, the viewer of the work may feel
he or she is observing 'perceptiveness' or 'art.' This is simply an illusion."

                                   - Ben Edlund, creator of "The Tick"




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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:00:30 EST
From: P12C16_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Cincinnati St.Pats Parade

Hello there list,
I know this seems really in advance, but I am a 16 year old enthusiast(been 
obsessed with them for 7+ years now) and was wondering if any of the 
Cincinnati Delorean owners are planning to do the parade again this year, and 
if they would mind having someone(me) ride with them?  I'm asking this now so 
that owners can plan ahead.  I can't think of a more fun thing to do on St. 
Pats day, and I hope to own a DeLorean of my own someday.  Feel free to 
e-mail me at P12C16_at_dml_aol.com if you would do this GREAT favor for me!

Thanks so much,
Patrick 



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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:18:22 -0600
From: "Mike Griese" <mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Torsion Bars

There is no such thing as a copyright for the
torsion bars.  A patent on the other hand was
certainly issued.  However, I would think that
the patent has expired by now.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: deloreanernst_at_dml_aol.com [mailto:deloreanernst_at_dml_aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 8:07 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Torsion Bars


In a message dated 12/5/01 7:52:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk writes:


> I would almost think that a call to Northrop-Grumman
> >

If I recall correctly, John DeLorean personally holds the copyright on the
torsion bars.  If so, anyone who wanted to make up a new supply would need
his permission. In any case, I'd like to know what the vendors intend to do
about this.  (James...?)
-Wayne A. Ernst
DMCTech Group


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 01:17:56 -0000
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: heli-coils in rear hub carrier

Walt - Original threads on bolts MUST be rolled, or the durability is 
dramatically reduced.  But, on internal threads such as what you have 
on the hub carrier, the threads can only be cut.  If the hub carriers 
are made from aluminum, it is a good thing to have heli-coil inserts 
to protect the threads from galling during bolt installation.  If you 
run a tap through the inserts to clean up the threads, and very little 
material is removed, you're probably just fine.  In terms of using a 
die to clean threads on bolts, if a replacement bolt can be found 
easily, that's the best approach.  If the bolt is hard to come by, 
cleaning up the threads is okay (to a degree) if the bolt is not 
loaded cyclically, and is loaded mostly in shear, which is the case 
with these particular application.

Toby Peterson VIN 2248
Winged1  

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> Today I just noticed that one of the bolts that hold the caliper to 
the rear
> hub carrier had the threads damaged.  Since there are two identical 
ones, I
> couldn't tell at first which heli-coil was responsible.  So I ended 
up using
> a tap to chase the threads on both heli-coils.  Barely any metal was
> removed.  It is quite a job getting a tap in there.  After reading 
about how
> Toby says that cut threads are not as strong as rolled threads, I 
figure
> that a heli-coil must be even worse.  In light of this, I didn't 
re-thread
> the damaged bolt.  I got another one from a junker.
> 
> I'm not asking a question with this post, really.  I'm just saying 
that
> chasing the thread on a hub carrier heli-coil was needed and has 
been done.
> Does anyone think this is a bad thing to do?
> 
> Walt    Tampa, FL
> 
> P.S. to Bill Buckner -- yes I know... tenacity! :)




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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:24:44 EST
From: njp548_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

In a message dated 12/6/01 6:41:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com writes:

<< The forward end of each torsion 
 bar is a hex shape, and the aft end is splined. >>
Toby,

   I believe that the forward end of the drivers side torsion bar is hex and 
the forward side of the passenger door is squared, so you don't confuse them. 
 If I'm wrong please let me know.

Later,
Nick Pitello
1852
<A HREF="Http://members.aol.com/njp548">Http://members.aol.com/njp548</A>



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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 02:37:04 -0000
From: "dmcxii" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

Turning the bar around would also make it somewhat difficult to 
adjust, since the allen-head end will now be somewhere just inside of 
the windshield.

I've heard of welding broken bars back together (Don Steger), and 
reproduction of this part kind of falls into the same paradigm as the 
left front fenders. There are more parts-cars every day, and this is 
NOT a particularly high failure rate part. No one will invest in  
reproducing them until there is enough pent-up-demand AND lack of 
used parts to sell a large enough quantity at the initial production 
run to recover the investment. At least no one with any business 
sense, and this includes most of the current major vendors. 

Dave Swingle 

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_k...> wrote:
> Walt had pointed out that it may be possible to create a custom 
> forward hinge for the driver's side door that would have a splined 
> bore in it rather than the hex bore.  The forward end of each 
torsion 
> bar is a hex shape, and the aft end is splined.  As Walt hinted, it 
> may be possible to reverse the bars if the hinge was changed, and 
also 
> the retention bracket in the back was changed to have a hex bore.  
> This would definitely represent a worst-case scenario, because two 
new 
> machined parts with broached bores (splined and hex) would be 
> relatively spendy.





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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 02:47:46 -0000
From: "gr8old1" <Gr8old1_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Custome Delorean Models

Ooh, do i detect a little friendly competition??  This is where 
things start to get interesting. Like stated earlier, when a cult-
status car such as ours becomes such a passion, that even the models 
start to gain noteriety, that truly is something spectacular. I 
applaud you all, and one day hope to join you as "Owners"

-Jeff Chabotte
webmaster: http://www.88-mph.com
2 Jobs to a dream

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "delorean502" <delorean502_at_dml_e...> wrote:
> HI, I don't know if anyone is interested, but I created a group for 
> the 1/18th scale Delorean model yadda yadda yadda!




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