From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 821
Date: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:55 PM

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There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Torsion Bars
From: "turbodmc3113" <turbodmc_at_dml_hotmail.com>

2. Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Aaron C." <slider_ten_at_dml_hotmail.com>

3. dome lights...
From: billsfanmd_at_dml_aol.com

4. Dinner with 1997 BTTF "D" owners
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

5. Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Andrei Cular" <acular1_at_dml_tampabay.rr.com>

6. RE: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "IN2TIME" <Gary_at_dml_IN2TIME.com>

7. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

8. Re: Re: Torsion Bars
From: William T Wilson <fluffy_at_dml_snurgle.org>

9. New polls! New polls! New polls!
From: "dmcnorway" <delorean_at_dml_online.no>

10. Torsion Bar failure?
From: "at88mph" <at88mph_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>

11. Re: Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_hotmail.com>

12. Re: Grounds
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

13. RE: Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Chris Parnham" <chrisparnham_at_dml_cwcom.net>

14. Re: Re: Torsion Bars
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>

15. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

16. Window Regulator
From: "Willie Mack" <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>

17. Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: "janvdwouw" <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl>

18. Rental Delorean Needed
From: kkoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

19. Re: dome lights...
From: "janvdwouw" <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl>

20. Re: dome lights... (door seals)
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

21. RE: RE: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com





Message: 1
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 03:46:46 -0000
From: "turbodmc3113" <turbodmc_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

Two door struts may work but going to a bricklin system is not the 
answer IMHO If you take a close look at a Bricklin there is a lot to 
the door system.

Next time you are at the Fall Foliage Tour Take a look at a Bricklin.

Next Fall tour looks like New Jersy next year, end of October again?

Regards,

Mike D.
Vin 3113
NY Lic DLORIANN

75 Brick 1557



> If the supply of torsion bars is depleted and cannot be resourced 
it 
> might be possible to go to a two strut system with stronger struts. 
Or 
>  maybe something like the Bricklin?
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 





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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:57:41 -0500
From: "Aaron C." <slider_ten_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

We all know that LH bars are hard to come by because we use the left door
much more than the right hand door.  What about where right-hand drive
Deloreans are located?  Wouldn't the demand be the exact opposite?  Maybe
there is somewhere in Europe or wherever RHD cars are and use their unused
supply for LH bars.  I"m sure someone has thought about this before.

-Aaron Crocco
Future Delorean Owner
NY Plate: OUTATYM



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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:25:03 EST
From: billsfanmd_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: dome lights...

thanks again to all who helped in my search. I just got my D back from a very 
reputable mechanic and for acout $1400 (parts and labor) my car passed a 
strict state inspection. The mechanic did make a list of theings to work on. 
OVer the next few weeks  I will probably be a sking  some advice.....

first repair...both of my dome lights do not want to stay in place. It looks 
like the plastic clips are eitehr broken or just dont catch on the headliner. 
Any one have an easy solution? The dome lights work great but I dont like 
when they fall at every bump.

second reapir...if you are outside looking on roof in middle of the car along 
where the door meets the center of the roof there is a rubber seal that looks 
riveted to the underside of the door, im guessing for water/noise protection. 
Mine is dryrotted away and would like to replace. any advice on how to remove 
and repair?

thanks
mike cohee
#2109



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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 05:05:14 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Dinner with 1997 BTTF "D" owners

There is a dinner being planned with Bob and Gail Brandys Saturday 
evening January 26, 2002 near the Meadowlands Arena in New Jersey. Bob 
has built the 1997 BTTF Delorean which was at the Cincinatti and 
Cleaveland shows. He is going to be in the area with the car for an 
event at the Meadowlands. I am trying to coordinate a dinner for 
anyone in the Tri-State area on that weekend. I will have more details 
on the show for those that will want to see the car. To get an idea of 
how many people are interested please E-Mail me offlist. I am probably 
going to use a Charlie Brown's which is very close to the Meadowlands. 
It is an inexpensive steak house or if there is enough interest I 
could set up something at Medevil Times. It is more expensive but 
there is entertainment. It is also in the area. Please contact me if 
you plan on comming so I can arrange enough seating for everyone. If 
you haven't seen this car and don't get out to Ohio you have got to 
see it to believe it! The workmanship is AWESOME! You would swear it 
was THE car in the movie!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757




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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:52:08 -0500
From: "Andrei Cular" <acular1_at_dml_tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars

I did a quick search at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html and found
these two patents that relate to the torsion bars.  The first is for the use
of the bars to open the doors, the second is all about the manafacturing
process.  It sould contain all the basic info needed to reproduce the bars
in the future if ever needed.


U.S. Pat. No. 4,378,658
Inventors: DeLorean; John Z. (New York, NY)
Assignee: Delorean Research Limited Partnership (Bloomfield Hills, MI)
Appl. No.: 231398
Filed: February 4, 1981

Abstract
A door is mounted to hinge about a horizontal axis between a closed position
and an open position. A torsion bar is mounted in pretensioned manner to
bias the door from the closed position to the open position and to hold the
door in the open position in a tensioned manner. The vehicle body is made of
molded reinforced plastic while the hinges and mounting plates are metal.
"The torsion bar 40 is made of any suitable material, such as a cryogenic
material as described in U.S. Pat. No. 4,092,180. "




Inventors: Markow; Edward G. (Oakdale, NY); Aleck; Benjamin J. (Jackson
Heights, NY)
Assignee: Grumman Aerospace Corporation (Bethpage, NY)
Appl. No.: 793480
Filed: May 3, 1977


Abstract
A method of making high performance torsion bars from austenitic stainless
steels which comprises the steps of fabricating a blank complete with
splined ends and torsion working said blank below the Md temperature of the
material to a stress value above 80-90% of its ultimate. Prior working may
be done in tension at below the Md temperature, and subsequent precipitation
hardening may be added to the basic process.






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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:10:50 -0800
From: "IN2TIME" <Gary_at_dml_IN2TIME.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

A bar with a clockwise twist would still have a clockwise twist even if you
could install it backwards, so right side bars can't be used on the left at
all.

Gary_at_dml_IN2TIME.com
www.IN2TIME.com
www.PNDC.org
VIN #5612




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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 03:04:03 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

> This would definitely represent a worst-case scenario, because two new
> machined parts with broached bores (splined and hex) would be
> relatively spendy.

Toby,

You and Dave Swingle just gave me a very interesting idea.  I think it would
be cheaper than you think to reverse a torsion bar.  Start with the front
driver's side hinge and completely drill out the hex hole.  Then get a
spline plate and attach it to the hinge by drilling & taping holes and
attaching with bolts.  Weld something to the hinge if necessary.  On the
other end of the torsion bar, simply make a similar plate as the spline
plate only with a square hole in it and some way to attach a long pipe to
torque it in place.  Then adjustments to the torsion bar would be made by
completely removing the bar and re-inserting it into the spline plate one
groove over.

I'm sure this is easier said than done.  Since I haven't had a close look at
any of this stuff apart, I'm not sure it is possible.  But hey, I think we
are making progress on this idea.  And if it doesn't work, then maybe it
will help us come up with something that will.  Personally, I'm envisioning
something like a mini-garage door torsion spring.  There probably isn't
enough room for it, though.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:11:50 -0500 (EST)
From: William T Wilson <fluffy_at_dml_snurgle.org>
Subject: Re: Re: Torsion Bars

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Aaron C. wrote:

> door much more than the right hand door.  What about where right-hand
> drive Deloreans are located?  Wouldn't the demand be the exact
> opposite?  Maybe there is somewhere in Europe or wherever RHD cars are
> and use their unused supply for LH bars.  I"m sure someone has thought

There are only a handful of RHD DeLoreans in existence and even fewer were
factory-built that way.  There was never a major supply of RHD parts
established anywhere so there is no untapped supply of RHD-market torsion
bars.

Luckily it is quite rare that torsion bars actually wear out.  As long as
they are handled with care, well-adjusted and periodically inspected, they
should last practically forever.




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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:56:54 -0000
From: "dmcnorway" <delorean_at_dml_online.no>
Subject: New polls! New polls! New polls!

Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/

for some new and hopefully interesting polls! A few hypothetical 
polls yes, many "if's", but still with vision in mind, all in the 
best interest of the DeLorean sportscar, its owners and future 100% 
parts availability plus a few added extras ;) Go there and vote! 
Encourage the vendors to keep on developing new parts and 
accessories! They DO read the polls! :)

Best wishes from snowy Norway :)

Stian Birkeland
VIN # 06759




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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:24 -0600
From: "at88mph" <at88mph_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Torsion Bar failure?

All this talk about the torsion bars has got me wondering.  How many people
have had one fail on them and how did it fail? (by this, I don't mean while
adjusting it, I mean just by opening the door) Has anyone been seriously
injured by
a torsion bar?  Right now, my drivers side gas strut is shot and everytime I
have to open the door, thanks to the posting of how dangerous they can be, I
always wonder if its gonna go off.  If a torsion bar does 'give', what is
usually the outcome? Going thru the back window or could it possibly go
anywhere it wants?  Is it more prone to failure with a bad or good gas
strut?  Between this and the trailing arm bolt issue, I've now gone back to
driving my other car. :-/


Thanks for any insight!





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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:43:21 -0500
From: "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Torsion Bars

Ultimately I would rather stick with the torsion bar since that is the 
history of the car and one of its unique properties; however, would it be 
possible to replace the torsion bar with something a little more mundane.  
Maybe use a spring and then add stronger struts to make up for the limited 
lift supplied by the spring (assuming a spring does not exist that could 
completely replace the bar)?

That would give you some redundancy (safety issues raised earlier), 
potentially minimize cost (since the solution isn't as exotic as the bar), 
and it seems like (for the mechanical engineer types which does not include 
me) it would be relatively easy to design from off the shelf components.

BTW, has anyone looked at stronger struts?

Any thoughts?

Ed
10541


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:19:29 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Grounds

I never made a list of ALL of the grounding points on the car. The two 
that you really have to worry about are the one in front on the frame 
inside by the left front wheel and the "big" ones near the battery, 
engine, starter. As to how to prevent problems after cleaning, you 
should inspect them "once in a while" and they could be coated with a 
compound to keep moisture off them so as to prevent corrosion. I don't 
really like to coat connections as it makes them harder to inspect and 
also messier when you do have to clean them. Whenever you have the car 
on a lift it is just one of the thngs to look at unless you are having 
problems, then just clean them. Bad ground connections can have a way 
of causing weird problems especially when more than one circuit is 
grounded at the same point. In these cases a "back feed" from one 
circuit into another can cause things that you could never think of! 
All metal surfaces of the connecters and frame MUST be clean and 
shinny and tight (no paint on the frame).
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> Over the last few months I have been a member of this list, I keep 
seeing 
> reference to checking "all" the grounds.  Great idea; however, are 
these 





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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:25:42 -0000
From: "Chris Parnham" <chrisparnham_at_dml_cwcom.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Torsion Bars

Aaron,

Nice in theory but only the British Isles in Europe need RHD and with only
about 30 RHD cars in total ( including post factory conversions)  It not
really much help!

Most of them are very mileage anyway.....about 3000miles each!

There is a stock of torsion bars reputed still to be in the UK, one man was
seen using one to "stir his paint up with"!  But all efforts to find them
had so, far failed!

Chris Parnham  DOC UK  with 2 RHD's    Delores 3200miles, Dusty 621 miles .


-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron C. [mailto:slider_ten_at_dml_hotmail.com]
Sent: 07 December 2001 03:58
To: DML
Subject: [DML] Re: Torsion Bars

We all know that LH bars are hard to come by because we use the left door
much more than the right hand door.  What about where right-hand drive
Deloreans are located?  Wouldn't the demand be the exact opposite?  Maybe
there is somewhere in Europe or wherever RHD cars are and use their unused
supply for LH bars.  I"m sure someone has thought about this before.

-Aaron Crocco
Future Delorean Owner
NY Plate: OUTATYM


To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:00:03 +0100
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Re: Torsion Bars

Hi Aaron and anyone that might be interested,
Just to clear up some confusion about on which side people drive in Europe.
It seems to me that a lot of people think that the whole Europe drives on
the left (RHD cars). That is NOT true. England and Ireland are the only
countries in Europe that drive on the left with the steering wheel on the
right. The rest of Europe is just like US. As a matter of fact RHD cars are
not allowed to be registered in most (if not all) European countries. So, I
don't think we will be able to find those LH bars on this side of the pond.
Well, maybe the guys from British D club can say something about that.

Take care everyone,
Tom Niemczewski
vin 06298 (FOR SALE)
email: tomCIOdmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl (tomCIOdmc 'AT' poczta.onet.pl)

<SNIP>  Maybe
> there is somewhere in Europe or wherever RHD cars are and use their unused
> supply for LH bars.  I"m sure someone has thought about this before.
>
> -Aaron Crocco
> Future Delorean Owner
> NY Plate: OUTATYM






-- 



Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!

[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]






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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:21:27 -0000
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

Nick - You are, of course, quite correct.  I hadn't really paid that 
much attention to the configuration, but what you said made total 
sense to me.  I looked at my car this morning, and there it was - 
exactly as you suggested.   Good catch.  Also, I read the post 
regarding the patents on the bars, and the patent describing the bar 
detail says "austenitic stainless steels", which is good news from a 
corrosion standpoint.  I think that if we continue a useful dialog on 
this subject, a solution will present itself.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., njp548_at_dml_a... wrote:

>  I believe that the forward end of the drivers side torsion bar is 
hex and the forward side of the passenger door is squared, so you 
don't confuse them. 
>  If I'm wrong please let me know.

> Nick Pitello





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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:22:21 -0500
From: "Willie Mack" <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>
Subject: Window Regulator


Already folks, my drivers side window died on me a couple of weeks ago.  I
bought a new regulator from PJ Grady, and I've had the toughest time
installing it.  I'm not sure if i do have it installed correctly on not
right now.  When I lower the window, it pulls the window off the track.  Any
advice for installing one?  Anyone have any installation photos that could
aid me?

Thanks
  Willie


  Vin 5043
  DOA 5940

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/wmack




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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:24:12 -0000
From: "janvdwouw" <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl>
Subject: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

> Turning the bar around would also make it somewhat difficult to 
> adjust, since the allen-head end will now be somewhere just
> inside of the windshield.

I think this would be impossible to do; you'd have to have a mounting 
point on the body of the car, capable of taking the load the bar puts 
on it. The windshield is NOT capable of holding these forces and
since there is no real body-structure surrounding it it would have to 
take the load all alone. In the back the construction is much
sturdier and the forces of the bar can be directed into/through the 
body in an allmost straight line. The top corners of the windshield 
hang free when the doors are open so they can't depend on any support 
from the body.

> > As Walt hinted, it may be possible to reverse the bars 
> > if the hinge was changed, and also the retention bracket
> > in the back was changed to have a hex bore.

I'm no expert here, but I have quite a good feel for physics;
making the retentions bracket and hinge so they can hold a LH Torsion 
Bar is NOT an option. 
Look at it this way: the LH Bar produces a turning force in a
CLOCKWISE direction looking from the fixed position (=retention
bracket above rear window). If you look at it from the other end and 
fix that end, the motion STILL is clockwise.

So when you reverse the bar and put it on the RH door in a modified 
front hinge and retention bracket it would STILL produce a clockwise 
force, thus forcing the door closed instead of open.

I think anyone with a bit of technical insight would agree with me
that this idea is impossible, so I would like to ask the moderator to
close this thread. 

I am convinced that when someone really needs this part he of she
will be able to get a hold of one, maybe even through the list!

Just my 2 cents...

JAN van de Wouw
Thinking Different...   Using a Mac...
Living the Dream...   Driving a DeLorean...

#05141 "Dagger" since Sept. 2000

------------------------------





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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:03:42 EST
From: kkoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Rental Delorean Needed

Hey group I got this e-mail if you are interested contact RobMancuso_at_dml_msn.com

In a message dated 12/5/01 5:13:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
RobMancuso_at_dml_msn.com writes:


> Hi - I'm a communications officer for a Fortune 500 company, and we're doing 
> a meeting in Miami in early March. I'm looking for someone with a Delorean 
> who would be willing to rent it for one or two days for our sessions. The 
> car would not be driven while in our possession at the Doral Resort.
>  
> If you could possibly forward this email to anyone who may be interested, I 
> would very much appreciate it.
>  
> Rob Mancuso
> Senior VP/Corporate Communications
> Aon
> 1000 Milwaukee Ave.
> Glenview, IL  60025
> 847 953 8358
>  
> PS - I've also got some great John Z stories to relate from personal 
> experience.



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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:52:40 -0000
From: "janvdwouw" <jvdwouw_at_dml_home.nl>
Subject: Re: dome lights...

> first repair...both of my dome lights do not want to stay in place.
> It looks like the plastic clips are eitehr broken or just dont 
> catch on the headliner. Any one have an easy solution? 

I'm not sure how to describe this, but om ny car a previous owner had 
made a new clip bu taking a very small bolt (M3) with a washer, which 
he put infrom the inside of the light and then bolted a plate nut 
(those black things you usually get when you buy new car speakers) to 
the outside. Since this is wegde shaped it holds great, only removal 
can be tricky, but that's only when you are prying on the wrong side 
like I was...

I've put a (fuzzy) picture in the Photo's area, under Techie Stuff;
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/lst

Good luck,

JAN van de Wouw
Thinking Different...   Using a Mac...
Living the Dream...   Driving a DeLorean...

#05141 "Dagger" since Sept. 2000

------------------------------





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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:09:24 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: dome lights... (door seals)

Wow, I'm actually starting to be able to answer questions on the car! Here goes...

First off, I need a new light for mine, but havent gone searching through scrapyards yet.

My top door seals were shot too, and I got a set from Wingray (DMC Houston to you),
complete with the stainless strip. Getting the old ones out, now that's tricky...

I used a sharp 6mm HSS drill bit in my hand-held drill. I made up a length of steel tube
with an inside diameter of 7mm to fit loosely over the drill, and that was not quite long
enough to completely cover the whole drill bit - about 2mm of the bit protruding from the
end. It's a good idea to make this too short and use washers to "adjust" the length of
what now becomes a protective shield as well as a device stopping you drilling too far
in... with me so far?

Open your door and lay a strip of rubber over the torsion bar to prevent scratching it.
You can now run the drill through the tube, trying not to rest it on the torsion bar too
much, and drill off the heads of the rivets. This can be tough if they start to spin - I
was glad of having a good drill with variable speed.

With all the heads removed, you should be able to prise the seal free - NB wth it popped
off, be VERY careful closing the door as you can jam the seal's metal strip between the
torsion bar and the door. I don't know of an established procedure for the next bit, and
although I managed without, I recommend you take the roof T-panel off first. The seals
come out through the gap between the roof and the top of the door.

Getting the old rivets out is the hardest bit, and the bit I've been delaying on! I've
bought a quality set of end-cutters and after getting two or three out, I'm going to have
to grind it down to get it narrow enough to get to the rivets at the front.

Replace with self-tapping screws!

Out of interest, Rich (#2727) got a set of these seals from PJ Grady and they came
without the metal strip. Mine got pretty bent on the way out so I'm glad I've got new
ones.

I hope this helps

Martin
#1458
www.delorean.co.uk

billsfanmd_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

> second reapir...if you are outside looking on roof in middle of the car along
> where the door meets the center of the roof there is a rubber seal that looks
> riveted to the underside of the door, im guessing for water/noise protection.
> Mine is dryrotted away and would like to replace. any advice on how to remove
> and repair?
>
> thanks
> mike cohee
> #2109




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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:45:15 -0500
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Torsion Bars reversed?

[moderator's note: with this said, I'd say the reversing the torsion bar subject id done]


Agreed!
RH bars are loaded in a counter clockwise direction.
LH bars are loaded in clockwise direction. But a RH bar on the left would hold the drivers side door closed quite nicely.
Looks like the end of the thread....
Rubick would be proud....
Jim 6147

"IN2TIME" <Gary_at_dml_IN2TIME.com> wrote:

>A bar with a clockwise twist would still have a clockwise twist even if you
>could install it backwards, so right side bars can't be used on the left at
>all.
>
>Gary_at_dml_IN2TIME.com
>www.IN2TIME.com
>www.PNDC.org
>VIN #5612
>
>
>
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