From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1010
Date: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:51 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Sean Bean in a DeLorean
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com

2. Front Suspension Links
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

3. Searching the archives
From: Holler <thehauntfactory_at_dml_att.net>

4. Re: brake paint
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

5. Re: Re: The Resurrection of Vixen Continues...
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

6. Delorean New Jersey Spring Social
From: billsfanmd_at_dml_aol.com

7. DOT approval for LED lights
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

8. Re: The Resurrection... + Vacuum Tuning
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>

9. RE: rivnuts
From: "Darryl Tinnerstet" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>

10. "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: Ian Stewart <istewart_at_dml_mac.com>

11. Re: adjusting door?
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

12. Re: Muscle
From: Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

13. Re: DOT approval for LED lights
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>

14. More trouble than it's worth? LONG ARTICLE
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

15. Re: brake paint
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>

16. Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "bmxc" <ben_at_dml_benmaxwell.com>

17. RE: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

18. RE: Searching the archives
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

19. Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink_at_dml_yahoo.com>

20. Re: DOT approval for LED lights
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

21. Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>

22. Re: pre-production car on ebay
From: <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>

23. Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

24. Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "dmc6960" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>

25. Re: Re: The Resurrection... + Vacuum Tuning
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:09:35 -0400
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com
Subject: Re: Sean Bean in a DeLorean

Two interesting observations about that page and the Moby video.  Notice the car wash says it's a *hand* car wash (perhaps a recognition that most DeLoreans never go through a mechanical one?)  Also, all that page can say to describe the car in the video is "a silver sports car wotj gull wing doors."  Isn't that a *Delorean*?  :)

Richard



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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 21:56:05 -0000
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Front Suspension Links

Hello List - I just posted three photos to the "Techie Stuff" folder 
with the names "Front LCA Links".  (LCA stands for Lower Control Arm). 
The photos show the installation of the links that I am in the process 
of evaluating to reduce overall deflections in the front suspension 
area, and particularly the fore/aft movement of the LCA.  These links 
have given Winged1 a more stable feel in the corners, and the braking 
is rock-solid and stable.  The links are made from 4130 steel, and I 
didn't bother to clean them up and paint them because I will make the 
links from 17-4PH stainless steel if the installation works out (which 
appears to be the case at this point).  The attachment bolts were 
changed to gain the additional length needed ... I used some alloy 
steel 'grade 9' bolts at a strength range of about 160 KSI ultimate 
tensile stress.  I have about 500 miles on the installation with no 
apparent distress to any other parts in the area.  I will keep the 
List posted as I gain additional experience with this modified 
configuration.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1 - "Linked and Loaded"




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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 21:52:14 -0700
From: Holler <thehauntfactory_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Searching the archives



miami5606 wrote:

> <snip>
> It would be nice if we could set up a Forum that has an easy search
> engine. <snip>

I was wondering if it was just me.  Although the archives contain a wealth of knowledge
from over the years, I found doing a 'search' is actually very easy, but unfortunately
almost useless.  (Of course, maybe I haven't figured out the right way to do it. . .)
It seems to always produce only the most recent posts, and none particularly pertaining
to my search key words.
Short of clicking on each month, then each post, reading one by one, - what is the
correct way to do a search first before bothering the list with a question?
(The answer to this is probably in the archives somewhere, but I couldn't find it. . .)
Thanks!
Oliver Holler
VIN#10694 (Time-Car)




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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:10:56 EDT
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: brake paint

In a message dated 4/30/02 11:08:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net writes:

<< POR-15... it's not going to be original, but the trade off is as close to a
 "bomb-proof" paint as can be found. >>

POR-15 will not stand up to dot 3 or 4 brake fluid. So be neat when bleeding 
the brakes up.
Jim



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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:50:08 EDT
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: The Resurrection of Vixen Continues...

Tom, I too have done several by feel and knowing engines. If someone isn't to 
familier, then they could get it out of adjustment. But, All that I have 
adjusted worked out fine.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/



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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:49:04 EDT
From: billsfanmd_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Delorean New Jersey Spring Social

Hello Everyone...Seeing that I was the recipient of so much of the help 
offered this past weekend it's about time I said thank you. With three 
kiddies, finishing school and a full time job it's hard to find time to 
attend events like this past weekend but I must admit it was well worth it. 

I brought along my human Delorean breakdown Insurance policy, Mike Pack, to 
introduce me to the group and make sure all went well. I will tell anyone 
that will listen that if your Delorean broke down on the side of the road and 
all Mike Pack had with him was chewing gum, a yo-yo, a 9-iron, a Cal Ripken 
Jr. rookie card and some duct tape he would find a way to get your car 
running and get you home safe and sound...and all you need for payment would 
be a thank you.

Sitting in the parking lot and seeing all the enthusiasm was amazing. I have 
seen dozens of Delorean photos but until you're car is in one it is not the 
same. I am still learning the names of everyone but I must first thank Rob 
Grady. I have gone 4 months with a turn signals that would not turn off by 
itself. It took Rob all of 2 minutes to fix it....He also gave me a thorough 
evaluation of my car which I now look forward  to getting fixed....now I just 
need to sneak my car onto his lot and get on his to do list. 

Special thanks also to Debby for letting me ask a million questions and get 
as many parts as my wife will allow...My suggestion to Rob and Debby still 
stands...If you could find a way to have different merchant names appear on 
our credit card statements for our purchases your parts business would triple 
:-) possible names to use...Toys R Us, United Way or Victoria's Secret...

Also thanks to Jim Reeves in Minnesota. Seeing my car disassembled before 
you're eyes is almost like watching an autopsy. But my car was in good hands 
and with all his little tweaks my car is quieter on the inside and my 
passenger door opens with a touch of the finger.....My offer still stands 
room and board and sightseeing in MD in exchange for repair work on the 
car....

To everyone else...thanks for all your generosity and kind words. It is a 
little scary bringing you're new Delorean to you're first event because you 
have no idea what to expect...kind of like the first day of school...

With everyone's help I had a great time. I noticed that Mike Pack was having 
too much fun and looked bored so I quickly unhooked all my fuel lines just so 
everyone could see first hand how competent and dependable he really is.

Can't wait until the fall event down here in MD...There are some beautiful 
historic towns that will provide a stunning backdrop for our cars....

Hope to talk with everyone from the Mid Atlantic group on the list over the 
next few months...One final lesson is always, always, always carry a fire 
extinguisher. I have had one in the car for 5 months but for some reason did 
not have it with me.....how about someone making stainless steel fire ext. to 
match our cars :-)

Mike Cohee
#2109

 

  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 00:05:24 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: DOT approval for LED lights

I would like to find out what the approval process involves to legally
manufacture, sell and use aftermarket lighting fixtures for motor vehicles
(for DeLoreans in particular) that are SAE/DOT approved.  I've wasted some
time searching the DOT web site and became overwhelmed with the number of
publications to refer to.

If we put enough heads together to find all the answers, then someone
somewhere will make these.  And if no one else does, then I will (if I ever
get around to it).  Until then I'm just going to cut & hack OEM fixtures to
retrofit.  And that might end up being the final answer anyway.

So far when I pull up behind a Cadillac and see those new LED fixtures blink
so quickly on and off, I notice that condensate drips a lot faster from my
DeLorean's evaporator.  i.e., the car is drooling in anticipation of
assimilating this new technology.  :-)

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:38:29 -0000
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: The Resurrection... + Vacuum Tuning

I beleive that you can also tune the mixture using a vacuum gauge 
linked to the intake manifold.
Am I right in thinking that a vacuum reading can be taken from 
beneith one of the brass screws in the side of the intake manifold ?

Thanks


James RG




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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:36:57 -0700
From: "Darryl Tinnerstet" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>
Subject: RE: rivnuts

<<As far as I can tell, no one makes a metric version.>>

No one makes a metric rivnut?  They aren't THAT hard to find.  I can provide a professional quality rivnut tool and the inserts, in 4, 5, 6, and 8mm sizes, for $139.00.  I'm sure if you shop around you can find hobbyist quality ones for even less.

Darryl Tinnerstet
Specialty Automotive
McCleary, WA
www.delorean-parts.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:07:15 -0700
From: Ian Stewart <istewart_at_dml_mac.com>
Subject: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

Greetings list,

I just got done conducting my semi-weekly sweep of eBay for an 
affordable DeLorean and found this black-painted gem:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826044886

The auction says, and I quote:

Very rare car, preproduction unit chassis #20. Excellent condition. One 
owner since new, former Deloreon Employee. Car is better than production 
units

The exterior photos look exactly like a production car (other than the 
fact that it's black), so is this just embellishment?

Ian Stewart




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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 09:05:35 -0400
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: adjusting door?

Hugo,

Altering the door striker pins should only be attempted as a last resort.
Most door alignment problems can be corrected when performing the proper
alignment procedures.

DMC Joe
Tech Information, DMC Joe Help Club, & Store
"Summer Parts Sale"
http://shopping.oraclesmallbusiness.com/dsvstore
DeLorean Website Directory www.dmc.tv



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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:13:45 -0500
From: Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Muscle



John Delorean was on the history channel on a show about Muscle cars.
He had a lengthy interview about the Pontiac GTO and the Judge.




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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 13:09:44 -0500
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>
Subject: Re: DOT approval for LED lights

LED lamps can be installed into your original sockets without any problems.
There are some good lamps out there, and a few hack conversions. The draw on
the electrical system is much lower with the LED devices... it could be a
good quick cure to that fuse box trying to do an imitation of Chernobyl.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: [DML] DOT approval for LED lights

> I would like to find out what the approval process involves to legally
> manufacture, sell and use aftermarket lighting fixtures for motor vehicles
> (for DeLoreans in particular) that are SAE/DOT approved.



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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:08:58 EDT
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: More trouble than it's worth? LONG ARTICLE

(Moderators note: Michael is correct in that this artical is a little off the Delorean topic, but after reading it I also agree that the comparison between the two cars is very interesting. It shows that the Delorean is not unique in many of it's problems, and the things we deal with are also problems for other marques. Very good comparison Michael. 
Note: this is not going to start a Jaguar thread tho.   Marty, this weeks moderator)  



   I know this is a little off DeLorean topic, however very similar car 
story and ownership saga. If by the good grace of the powers that be, approve 
this message I think we all can laugh a little. 
    The story is about the Jaguar XKE. A car when introduced was hailed as a 
modern transportation advancement. When the car developed a reputation and 
panache for keeping owners (My Father) awake at night, worried & stressed out 
from the thought that the car would never start again, sales dropped and so 
did Jaguars reputation. (I can remember the car's interior would be just as 
wet as the exterior when driven in the rain)
    Today, the XKE like the DeLorean, is finding new owners that are real car 
enthusiasts and developing a reputation as a real classic car.

Best Wishes,
Michael Pack

<<JAGUAR
    More trouble than it's worth?
 
The rumors about Jaguar often lead to the wrong impression about this 
enthusiasts’ dream machine.
 
Why would anyone want a Jaguar? We’ve all heard the stories. A naive 
enthusiast has his (or her) head turned by the Jaguar’s comely beauty. He 
thinks he has the car of his dreams, but what he ends up with is a torturous 
enigma that saps his strength and steals his money.

Didn’t your car buddies warn you about sleeping with Jaguars?

Let me tell you how the E-Type, more commonly known as the SK-E in the United 
States where most of them reside, has been beleaguered by rumors. Ever hear 
the one about a guy named Lucifer who was the QC inspector at the end of the 
Coventry, England, assembly line?


SERIES 1 1961-64
coupe or roadster 3.8-liter dohc six cylinder engine three SU carburetors 
non-synchromesh transmission covered headlights toggle switches on instrument 
panel beautiful taillights and front marker lights above the bumpers 


1964-68
4.2-liter dohc six cylinder engine synchromesh transmission alternator 
replaces generator improved, adjustable seats 


1966
2+2 body style introduced small rear seat optional auto transmission optional 
air conditioning wheelbase stretched 9 inches roofline higher by 2 inches


SERIES 1 ½ 1967
uncovered headlights rocker switches replace toggles on instrument panel 
improved radiator and fans for engine cooling dual Stromberg carburetors 
replace three SU carbs 


SERIES 2 1968-70
larger air intake opening bigger turn signals, now located below the bumper 
more massive bumpers improved seat comfort improved brakes


SERIES 3 1970-75
all-aluminum, 5.3-liter V12 engine no coupe available – roadster and 2+2 only 
larger air intake opening flared wheel wells bumpers enlarged power steering 
automatic transmission option in roadster 
 
 
 
Most of these cars have not had an easy life. Despite their wealthy-class 
station, the SK-E was often victimized by owners who knew little about the 
care and feeding of exotic machinery. As a point of comparison, you wouldn’t 
treat a high-performance Corvette, Shelby Cobra, or Hemi ‘Cuda like a pick up 
truck. Because the afore mentioned cars were more often owned by enthusiasts, 
they were run hard, but they were also maintained well. There was attention 
to details.

 
For many owners, the Jag was just a glamourous toy, too complicated for their 
nonautomotive-type brains and behaviors. In recent years, the car has been 
finding garage space in the homes of real enthusiasts. People are buying, 
driving, and showing greater respect for this thoroughbred automobile.

Take a look at the XK-E. It’s a drop-dead gorgeous car, guaranteed to get you 
noticed anywhere and anytime. But don’t be blinded by its unmistakable sex 
appeal. Look at the mechanical aspects that are a major part of the Jag 
mystique.

The original SK-E was technologically advanced, but it was evolutionary, not 
revolutionary. Its engine and transmission were carry-overs from the SK-150. 
They were road tested for years before the advent of the E-Type. What’s scary 
about a dual overhead cam, 3.8 liter (231-cubic-inch), inline six cylinder 
engine with aluminum heads? To begin with, how about three SU carburetors. A 
synchronization nightmare?

 
“This problem most often comes from trying to synchronize worn out cars,” 
says restoration expert Brian Anderson, owner of Classic European 
Restorations, in Oceanside, California. “The volume of fuel needs to be the 
same through each carb. If the butterfly valve moves 5 degrees in the first 
carb, it must have 5 degrees in the other two.” Unless all the carb parts are 
working properly, the results will be a car that is difficult, probably 
impossible, to keep tuned. 

Eventually the three-carb system was replaced by a two-carb design on Jags 
coming to the United States. Was this proof that the three-carb design was 
flawed? No. The first year of emission standards dictated the change. The 
resulting power loss was recovered by boring the cylinders to a 4.2-liter 
(258-cubic-inch) capacity. This engine is considered smoother than the 
original, but it never duplicated the performance numbers of the original. To 
facilitate the cat’s quickness off the line, lower gear ratios were 
implemented, but the 4.2 engine didn’t rev as freely above 3500 rpm, 
therefore the pounce lacked some of the previous quickness. The lower gears 
(usually found in the U.S. export cars) also had owners looking for another 
gear when cruising at 75 mph. More stringent smog restrictions in this 
country ultimately led Jaguar to the V12 in order to maintain its performance 
standards. It’s widely assumed that the smooth-running V12 is the performance 
champion for all E-Types, but even the 12 couldn’t out accelerate the 
original six.

It’s true the early XK-E Jags (the 3.8s) were equipped with nonsynchromesh 
“crash box” transmissions. The shifting action in these gearboxes is 
noticeably heavy and slow.

A concours restoration requires authenticity, including the correct 
transmission, so for those folks, the art of double-clutching becomes a 
requirement. But enthusiasts who prefer driving comfort with a minimum of 
modification, there are options

 
All 4.2-liter E-Types were equipped with synchromesh transmissions beginning 
in 1964, and these can be retrofitted. In fact, many car received this 
transplant years ago. Depending on how the owner wants to use the car, a gear 
ratio change could be part of the change as well. A second option is 
substituting a modern five-speed (or six-speed) transmission. 

Not long ago, dropping a five-speed into an E-Type was about as likely as 
painting flames across the hood. What was once a sacrilege is now accepted by 
driver-oriented owners, according to Jason Len, owner of XKs Unlimited, one 
of the largest Jaguar parts suppliers in the world. His company sells parts 
to restore cars to original condition as well as to put them on the road. Yet 
he acknowledges their most popular items are bought by owners intent on 
keeping E Types on the road. When the 3.8s were in XK-150s, they were mated 
to overdrive transmissions, but the XK-E didn’t have room for that unit. The 
modern five-speed can be squeezed in.

Other popular modifications include upgrades to the suspension, such as 
heavier springs, shocks, and sway bars. “Ten years ago these cars were bought 
as investments.” Len says, “now more enthusiasts are driving the cars.”

What other horror stories have you heard about Jaguars?

Overheating problems are real. Summer temperatures in most of the United 
States put the heat on a car built for England’s climate. The small air 
intake in the original XK-E was enlarged in 1968 and again in 1971 in an 
effort to reduce the overheating tendencies. Len says heavy-duty radiators 
and multi-bladed, high-powered fans are popular for combating this problem.

 
As with most 30-year-old cars, years of neglect have clogged cooling systems, 
and Anderson advises that the engine cooling passages be thoroughly cleaned 
to maximize cooling efficiency. He also noted the passages were designed so 
much of the recirculating water bypassed the radiator, causing the engine to 
run hotter – perhaps a good idea in England, but a detriment when Jags are 
driven on hot days. Modifying this bypass will also mitigate the problem. 

RESOURCES
XKs Unlimited
850 Fiero Lane
San Luis Obispo, CA 93401
Telephone: 800-444-JAGS
Fax: 805-544-1664

Classic European Restorations
4156 Avenida De La Plata
Oceanside, CA 92056
Telephone: 760-414-1515
Fax: 760-414-1519

Jaguar Clubs of North America
49 clubs in U.S., Canada and Mexico
Information: 888-258-2524
8 a.m. - 6 p.m. PST
 
 
And what about the Prince of Darkness, an insulting moniker given to the 
Lucas electrical system? “Most of these problems are corrosion related,” 
Anderson says. “The contacts on the original switches and components are not 
sealed and are more susceptible to corrosion than modern electrical systems.” 
Modern electronic ignitions are superior to the original points system and 
will alleviate some of the nuisance regarding hard starting. Also, the fuel 
pump has its own set of points that can be troublesome. These, too, can be 
replaced with solid-state electronics to gain reliability. As with all cars 
that only get occasional use, a fully charged battery is essential to a 
healthy system. Without that, you’re going to have problems and it doesn’t 
matter what company has its name on the components.

Yes, the Jaguars require an attentive owner willing to follow a more strict 
maintenance regime than most cars require. But most enthusiasts dote over 
their cars anyway, which is just what an XK-E requires.

If you are buying one from an owner who hasn’t had the means or the patience 
to maintain it well, you may be buying a package of trouble. Be a smart 
shopper: Learn the differences among the models, know how you will use your 
car (occasional or frequent driver or show), make a commitment to maintaining 
the car in top running condition, and make acquaintances with members of the 
Jaguar Club.

The main thing is don’t be scared away by tongue-waggers who have no 
first-hand experience with the cars.>>



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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 13:21:47 -0500
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>
Subject: Re: brake paint

The POR should be topcoated with hardnose for added resistance... but I have
yet to see ANY coating that was "brake fluid proof". POR is quite resistant
to brake fluid. Even Eastwood's brake parts coating is only marketed as
being "resistant" to fluid. The biggest advantage POR has, is that it
applies well over a rusted surface, and stays on.

Best solution, don't take a bath in brake fluid, when bleeding the system...
it shouldn't be spilling everywhere anyway!
or if you must make a mess,  at least rinse it off in reasonable time.

----- Original Message -----
From: <jwit6_at_dml_cs.com>
Subject: Re: [DML] brake paint

> POR-15 will not stand up to dot 3 or 4 brake fluid. So be neat when
bleeding the brakes up.
> Jim



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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:31:59 -0000
From: "bmxc" <ben_at_dml_benmaxwell.com>
Subject: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

The interior pics show a different center console armrest & passenger 
side console... very interesting car... 





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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:42:46 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

I don't know if this car is anything special, but there are some odd things I can see from the photos. 

No VIN on the auction.  Did you e-mail the seller asking for it?  The VIN plate does not look stock, It has black lines on it.

The interior shot shows the door strap mounted to the door.  This was an afterthought, even the early 1981 "production" cars had a strap looped around the handle.  There are also door guides installed...  But maybe the doors were replaced at some point?  The car is painted so it may have been in an accident.

There are screws in the doorsill.  I thought they only did that on the early cars, but it is possible that was done by a dealer or mechanic after the fact. Not that I pay that much attention, but I don't recall seeing a car with the screws in the doorsill AND permanently installed door straps.

The throttle cable recall is also missing.  Again, I am not an expert on when specific changes were made but I would expect to see this done on a car with the newer style doors.  The coolant bottle does not look stock, and there is a second bottle in the front right corner, what is that?!

The exhaust looks to be the 1982 style with the tips. Why would a early car have this??  This is a bigger question for me because when I purchased 1860 the seller gave me his stock muffler that he claimed was removed for the Legend installation.  It also has tips.. But he got a whole truckload of parts from Legend when he purchased the engine, so it is possible parts got mixed up.

Why are there no photos of the nose??

If this car was really owned by a DMC employee, then it is possible he had selective upgrades done to it as they became available (door guides, straps, exhaust system, no need for throttle recall in southern CA).  If you are bidding on it based on the claims of the auction, I would be sure to SPEAK to the previous owner of the car and/or get PROOF of it's history (plus you could ask the ex-employee if he has any other memorabilia!)

Although this car is a bit odd, I would not call it "preproduction".  If you ever see a prototype car there are a number of obvious differences like the pop out window, different wheels, no louvers, and different interior.  The 1977 magazines had lots of pictures, Tamir's web site may have a copy.

Caveat Emptor




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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:45:16 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Searching the archives

I use the Yahoogroups archive search..  If that does not work, Google does a nice job!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Holler [mailto:thehauntfactory_at_dml_att.net]
> Subject: [DML] Searching the archives
> 
<SNIP>
> by one, - what is the
> correct way to do a search first before bothering the list 
> with a question?



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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:11:35 -0000
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

Well, 
I noticed more things different on the car.

Odd container bottle in engine compartment, upper left
VIN tag on door is different
cushioned center console
'82 sytle pull straps
"delorean" on passenger knee pad
different shift boot
'82 style ehaust pipes
different plastic cooland bottle

anything else??

Erik



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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:22:16 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Re: DOT approval for LED lights

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> I would like to find out what the approval process involves to 
legally
> manufacture, sell and use aftermarket lighting fixtures for 
motor vehicles
> (for DeLoreans in particular) that are SAE/DOT approved.
<SNIP>
> Walt    Tampa, FL

The question surfaced a while back. It's the lenses themselves 
that have to become DOT certifed, not the lighting elements. So 
you could go ahead with your idea of converting existing units. 
Just think of them as "core" units. :)

Off hand, if you wanted some quick info on which direction to go, 
try contacting an Underwritters Lab. Perhaps they would know 
which direction to go in.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:38:22 -0000
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
Subject: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

Ian and List,

I talked to the current owner (Jim) and he had some interesting 
stories about it.  (FYI - it is not one of the original "black cars")

He said this was one of 28 cars that were built pre-production, prior 
to the plant's completion in Dunmurry.  He said that all the SS panels
on the car were formed by hand, using a "soft tool" process.  
The doors fit so badly that they had to be replaced with later model
doors.

Jim painted the car after he acquired it, to improve the look of the
car, since the SS panels did not have the "finished" look of the 
production panels.  He used a four step process including etching the
panels, spraying the panels with DP40 aircraft epoxy primer, then 
spraying the panels with Glassco primer and finally painting the 
panels.  The rear fascia is a pre-production piece that did not have
the letters in the bumper strip.

Jim did admit that he has done a lot of customizing to the car, which
in some ways reduces the value of it being a pre-production car.  He 
said he has had it fully licensed as VIN...000020 since he has owned 
the car.  He also mentioned that he has never had any problems 
emission testing the car in California.

Jim said, to his knowledge, there are only 3 remaining pre-production 
cars, including his, numbers 19, 20 (both 5-spd) and 21 (automatic).
19 and 20 are both in CA about 50 miles from each other and 21 is now
in Texas somewhere.  His car, #20, was used for the original emission
testing and EPA estimates.

The guy seemed pretty knowledgeable and had a short story or two about
the replacement prototype window regulators that he helped develop
that never had the chance to go into production.  (he has the actual
prototypes in the doors of #20).  Other than spelling "Delorean" 
incorrectly in the ad (Deloreon), the car seems legit.


Later,
Rich W.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Ian Stewart <istewart_at_dml_m...> wrote:
> Greetings list,
> 
> I just got done conducting my semi-weekly sweep of eBay for an 
> affordable DeLorean and found this black-painted gem:
> 
> Very rare car, preproduction unit chassis #20. 



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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:05:51 -0400
From: <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: pre-production car on ebay

Walt would like that rear bumper! No DeLorean name on it, just the license plate holder has the marque name.
I want a plate holder like that! I like showing off the name, I think it is important that people know what it is that I drive. (sorry, Walt).




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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:42:48 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Ian Stewart <istewart_at_dml_m...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> The auction says, and I quote:
> 
> Very rare car, preproduction unit chassis #20. Excellent 
condition. 
<SNIP>
> The exterior photos look exactly like a production car (other 
than the 
> fact that it's black), so is this just embellishment?
> 
> Ian Stewart

The only thing that I can see that indicates that this was a lower 
production car is the early type throttle spool. Althogh the lack of 
a factory VIN plate on the door sill is quite evident. It appears to 
be an assigned VIN #. So, there's one of 2 possible senarios 
here: 1. This was a "black" car that the workers practiced and 
trained on. So the panels were painted seperately, then added 
on. or 2. This was a wrecked car, painted to conceal damage, 
and in the process it had it's VIN# removed. The only way to try 
and find out would be to remove the headliners & check for 
VIN#'s.

Just a thought...

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:50:05 -0000
From: "dmc6960" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>
Subject: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

Without talking the seller, I can tell you this....

This car has later style (than what would really have been on a pre-
production car)...

-Door pull straps
-Inner weatherstrip
-Coolant return hose
-Wheels
-Exhaust tips

Now, if this was a DMC employee's car, they could have easily gotten 
each one of these updates as they were released into production.

These are some very intersting things I noticed on the car and which 
also may point to an early-production car...

-Door sill vin plate missing, thin plate is in its place
-Rear bumper letters non-existant (you see that Walt?!) However that 
could have easily been done when painting.
-Center console and passenger kneepad obviously different from 
production.  However, these could have easly been custom fabricated 
by the owner. (these are similar, but not apparently identical to the 
ones in the preproduction photos in DMCNEWS resource files)
-Throttle spool entirely different. (mounted below coolant bleeder, 
cable attaching on driver's side of engine)
-Coolant expansion bottle different from stock
-Unknown plastic bottle in back of engine bay
-prop-rod for engine cover
-wire-looms in engine bay with different wiring routes
-coil appears to be mounted outside of electrical box
-electrical box does not appear to be rounded
-marker lights butting against fascias (this WAS a pre-prod trait)
-kick-panel speakers (very likely aftermarket)
-shift knob different
-parking brake trim not carpeted
-seat belt latch (and possibly the whole system) different
-seemingly one door switch on driver's side, but kinda hard to tell
-door guide has 2 screws, (mine at least) has 3
-screws holding the door sill (like the early VINs)

There are probably more, but I need to head home now.  If I think of 
anything else (while driving my later [November 81] production D) 
I'll let everybody know.  What I would really like to see though is 
an up close photo of the different door jamb vin plate, and the vin 
plate thats supposed to be on the dash, (who knows if it is there).

Jim Reeve - AKA "Timmay"
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC-6960



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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 16:11:49 -0400
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Re: The Resurrection... + Vacuum Tuning

The easiest place to attach a vacuum source is at the vacuum nipple fitting
at the left  rear of the intake manifold (PM 1/4/1 #39). Simply disconnect
the existing line and insert a T fitting to add an additional item.

DMC Joe
Tech Information, DMC Joe Help Club, & Store
"Summer Parts Sale"
http://shopping.oraclesmallbusiness.com/dsvstore
DeLorean Website Directory www.dmc.tv

----- Original Message -----
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 7:38 AM
Subject: [DML] Re: The Resurrection... + Vacuum Tuning


> I beleive that you can also tune the mixture using a vacuum gauge
> linked to the intake manifold.
> Am I right in thinking that a vacuum reading can be taken from
> beneith one of the brass screws in the side of the intake manifold ?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> James RG





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