From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1012
Date: Saturday, May 04, 2002 4:15 AM

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There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Early Morning _at_dml_ PJ Grady DeLorean Inc. & PRV engine cut-a-way
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

2. AW: Digest Number 1010
From: klaus-peter.steiner_at_dml_rweplus.com

3. Re: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: Michael Sanchez <sokar_at_dml_mac.com>

4. Re: "Pre? production" car on ebay?
From: "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>

5. Re: Yet another TORSION BAR ? Help DMC Joe
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>

6. RE: Fw: rivnuts
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

7. I hate rust.
From: "john572905" <jrc2905_at_dml_aol.com>

8. Re: Details of Pre-production car on ebay?
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>

9. Re: I hate rust.
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury_at_dml_btinternet.com>

10. RE: "Preproduction" car on ebay?
From: "Bob & Vicky Miller" <delo1_at_dml_mindspring.com>

11. Pre-production cars a.k.a.Chestnut Fleet DeLorean not for sale to the public
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

12. Re: Re: Turns over, doesn't start.
From: Sean Mulligan <sean_mulligan_at_dml_yahoo.com>

13. Does one seal one's tires?
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>

14. VIN 7014 RH DeLorean Door 4 sale
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

15. Re: Fw: rivnuts
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com





Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 00:57:42 EDT
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Early Morning _at_dml_ PJ Grady DeLorean Inc. & PRV engine cut-a-way



    I had to post this great picture of my old 1981 at Rob Grady's up in West 
Sayville Long Island. The picture was taken at 5:00 am just before the sun 
comes up. The two pictures of the car on the waterfront was taken at the 
marina next door to PJ Grady, before the sun sets.
    In addition, the PRV engine cut-a-way and Alpine engine PICs should aide 
our efforts to clarify the mystique surrounding our beloved PRV.
    
Best Wishes,
Michael Pack



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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 09:44:39 +0200
From: klaus-peter.steiner_at_dml_rweplus.com
Subject: AW: Digest Number 1010


	Why not a "machine wash"?

	Look at  http://www.steinerklaus.de/dmc/ef2001/Seiten/0210.htm
	This was last year at Eurofest in Belfast

	> From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com
	>Two interesting observations about that page and the Moby video.
Notice the car wash says it's a *hand* car wash (perhaps a recognition that
most DeLoreans never go through a mechanical one?)....

> Richard
> 
> 
> 



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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:16:20 -0600
From: Michael Sanchez <sokar_at_dml_mac.com>
Subject: Re: Re: "Preproduction" car on ebay?

Okay, keep in mind what follows in this email is mainly "rumors" but I'm
sure if somebody took the time, they could prove them right or wrong...
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the resources on deloreans.....

A few years back as I was looking for DeLorean for myself (I still don't
have one unfortunately) I ran across somebody in Albuquerque NM who said he
had a Pre-Production model of the Delorean.  Of course I was very skeptical,
but considering the history of the car, it could have been feasible..  See,
back when there was a Delorean dealer here in NM, when DMC went under, the
owner of the then Cadillac dealership kept around a dozen of the cars for
himself, and has been SLOWLY selling them in Santa Fe over the last 10
years.  Each one is in PRISTINE condition.  With that said, the gentleman
who was selling this "pre-production" car said to have purchased the car
from this former dealership owner (mind you, I honestly didn't have the time
to research this car too much, as I'll explain in a second) and one thing I
did notice about the car.....

THE DOOR PANELS DID NOT FIT WELL.

The owner went on to explain how the pre-production models had hand-tooled
panels, and the doors often fit really raggedly.  And it was true, there was
an OBVIOUS problem with how they fit.  Although they opened and closed well,
there was quite a bit of inconsistencies with how the panels fit with the
surrounding panels.

Anyhow, on to why I never bothered to research this car.  It was in horrible
condition.  Everything that members on this list told me to look out for
were there... Like Rust forming VERY CLEARLY on the frame, and obvious flat
spots on the tires from being stationary for so long... And tho he had just
replaced the fuel system due to it being sitting in a garage for so long, it
still seemed to run with a lot of fuel-type problems when the car was idling
and in motion.   And lastly, although this car was supposed to have "been in
a garage" for the last 20 years, the Binnacle and ENTIRE front end of the
cabin was cracked, melted, or had other MAJOR problems.  Almost everything
inside would have had to have been replaced, INCLUDING the leather.  Since
his asking price started at 26,000 *before all the repairs I'd have to do*,
I figured I'd just keep on looking without even researching the history of
the car.  

Also mind you, I know these problems did not arise from the dealership
owner, since his cars (and I've seen him sell several here in santa fe) are
always in near PERFECT condition, right down to fresh leather seats that
have been kept conditioned a couple times a year to keep them nice and
fresh.

Anyhow, I'm just lettin ya guys know, from the very short time I've been
into deloreans, what the owner in CA has said does correlate with what I've
heard about the pre-production cars.  If he had to replace the panels and
paint it due to the unrefined grain caused by hand tooling.... It would make
sense to me.

Oh yeah, and that family that owns the 12 deloreans (they are still
unregistered cars, as the dealer is still in business) if they sell another
anytime soon, I'll let the list know.  They are always in EXCELLENT
condition.  But to my knowledge, they only do so about once every 3-5 years
or so.........

Anyhow, I may be totally wrong in all of this, since I'm only going by what
I've heard locally and stuff... Take it with a grain of salt *smile*

-Sokar





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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:52:48 -0000
From: "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: Re: "Pre? production" car on ebay?

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_o...> wrote:
> Ian and List,
> 
> He said this was one of 28 cars that were built pre-production, 
prior 
> to the plant's completion in Dunmurry.  He said that all the SS 
panels
> on the car were formed by hand, using a "soft tool" process.  
> The doors fit so badly that they had to be replaced with later model
> doors.
> 
> Jim painted the car after he acquired it, to improve the look of the
> car, since the SS panels did not have the "finished" look of the 
> production panels.  

WHAT!! How do you build a factory STOCK black fiberglass underbody 
without a running factory !!(all the underbodies as me know them were 
made at the DMC factory) As that car has a production line fiberglass 
underbody.
The black paint shows(as far as I can see)straight "production line" 
SS panels,with NO SIGNS of hand made(re:custom made) SS panels,If it 
indeed is a P.Prod.car,the DASH pads WILL have REAL leather(as my car 
has)and the fiberglass engine lid will be unpainted white on the 
bottom side(he might have painted it) where the stickers are.THAT is 
a true indication of a 500 series Delorean.If it was/is a P.Prod. 
car,it was one AFTER the plant was built.

Claude
000570 




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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:59:53 -0000
From: "jamesrguk" <dmc12_at_dml_btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another TORSION BAR ? Help DMC Joe

Is there not a torque setting for the torsion bars, surly if all 
DeLorean doors were made equal with new gass struts then there must 
be a standard torsion setting for the bars that allows the doors to 
function properly.

I have a torque wrench which has a dial thing on it that shows you 
the torque that you are putting on the nut or bolt, has anyone ever 
used this on a torsion bar to see what the setting is?

I must admit I used the 5" clearance to adjust my torsion bars but a 
torque setting would be usfull for everyone.

Regards


James RG




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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:21:23 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: rivnuts

I found this same kit in my search.  It would be a good candidate for the shade tree DeLorean mechanic, but is missing the 8mm size.  Does your supplier have a mandrel for 8MM that will fit in this tool?  If so, how much is it?


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darryl Tinnerstet [mailto:darryl_at_dml_techline.com]
> Subject: [DML] Fw: rivnuts
> 
> 
> I need to make a correction/addition to the earlier message.  
> The price given me by my supplier was in error - the correct 
> price is $90.58 and the kit includes 75 assorted rivnuts and 
> mandrels in the following sizes: 3x0.5mm, 4x0.7mm, 5x0.8mm, 
> and 6x1.0mm.
> 
> Darryl Tinnerstet
> Specialty Automotive
> McCleary, WA
> www.delorean-parts.com
> 



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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 13:16:46 -0000
From: "john572905" <jrc2905_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: I hate rust.

This is a long story so I will keep it short.
Started out I needed to replace my leaking transmission seal.
While I had the drive shafts out I checked the CV joint grease and 
found it like water. Take apart and regrease CV joints.
I checked the rear wheel bearings and found the grease had turned to 
dust. Take apart and repacked bearings.
Checked brakes caliphers seals leaking. Rebuld brakes.
While apart will check trailing arm bolts and detail frame.
Started scraping away rust and found that in inside of the frame that 
supports the engine had major rust. The outside looked fine. Only way 
to get it was to remove shocks, now there is nothing left on frame 
and cut a 6x4 inch hole in the frame (will weld back when finished) 
to access this area. Almost all the frame coating had fallen off in 
big pieces, some were over an inch thick. The rust was thicker on the 
lower park and less on the higher section. I will now remove all the 
loose frame coating, remove as much rust as possible and use the POR 
15 products to recoat.
I am not happy with car being off the road but if left unchecked this 
rust would have destroyed the frame from the inside out and by the 
time it was found the frame would be a mess and would need a frame 
off restoration..
This car is an 82 with 25000 miles and never seen a winter.
This car is a daily driver with no problems but if left unchecked any 
one of the things I found could have turned my baby into a problem 
child. So I am sandblasting all parts removed and repainting them for 
protection and know that the car is safe to drive.
John




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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 15:19:40 -0000
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
Subject: Re: Details of Pre-production car on ebay?

Claude and List,

The pre-production car on ebay is just that, "pre-production".
This does not imply that it was a prototype, just pre-production.
A lot of the post about this topic are based on speculation.  Why
speculate when you can get answers from the source.  Just call Jim.

When something like this appears on ebay or to the general public,
there is alway spectulation that appears on the list.  That is why
I went right to the source regarding this car, since the owner had
posted his phone number right in the ad.  The owner was a former
Delorean company employee, working with these cars at the time they
were being designed and built.  What better source is there than
actually talking to someone that was a part of the process.

I have been a Delorean enthusiast for many years, have owned and
refurbished over a dozen Deloreans since 1985, have talked to many
people who know Deloreans and have read most of what is available
to read about Deloreans, but I know that I do not know all there is
ro know about Deloreans.  Spectulation is fine when that is the only
source of information, but making a determination based on only a few
dark photos is probably not a very reliable method of analysis.

I have never met Jim in person or seen the car in person, but I am
certainly willing to give Jim the benefit of the doubt that he knows
the history of this car better than almost anyone I know.  I have not
seen hand formed SS panels painted before, in person or in photos,
but I have seen hand repaired SS panels that have been painted, and
although they do not look great when repaired and not refinished, the
same panel does look great once it has been prepped and painted.
The underbody molds were made and used before the factory was open.

Bottom line, if you dispute what Jim claims to be the truth about his
car, why not just give him a call.  Jim was very forthcoming about all
the custom work that has been done, not claiming it was otherwise.  If
you just want to know more about it or clarify some details, I'm sure
he would be more than happy to talk with you about it.  I believe that
a phone call to him is much more worth while than just speculation.

By the way, Jim will take a partial trade of a late model dirt bike or
two (for his kids) toward the payment of the Delorean.

Any questions, give Jim a call.


Later,
Rich W.


>snip<

> WHAT!! How do you build a factory STOCK black fiberglass underbody 
> without a running factory !!(all the underbodies as me know them 
were made at the DMC factory) As that car has a production line 
fiberglass underbody.
 THAT is a true indication of a 500 series Delorean.If it was/is a P.Prod. 
> car,it was one AFTER the plant was built.
> 
> Claude
> 000570




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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:45:48 +0100
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury_at_dml_btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: I hate rust.

Jonh I know exactly where your coming from with this one....Take a look at
my site..
Cheers
Paul
#6463

www.paul.salsbury.btinternet.co.uk


----- Original Message -----
From: "john572905" <jrc2905_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: [DML] I hate rust.

> This is a long story so I will keep it short.

> Started scraping away rust and found that in inside of the frame that
> supports the engine had major rust. The outside looked fine.



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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:56:58 -0400
From: "Bob & Vicky Miller" <delo1_at_dml_mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: "Preproduction" car on ebay?


hello all the black car on ebay might be a recovery car. in some states the
dmv will assign its own number to a car that has been purchased without
paperwork. ,i have seen these before/ tenn. and other states do the door
plates this way. just f.y.i. bob miller




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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:46:26 EDT
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Pre-production cars a.k.a.Chestnut Fleet DeLorean not for sale to the public



    The ebay car could be a Training Car. However there are too many 
discrepancies to warrant the car as such...in my observation & opinion from 
the three photographs.  For example, the parts changes made to the car (it's 
not correct for a very early 1981) are late 1981 parts changes. 
    For example, the rear bumper & fascia on the Scottsdale/Barett Jackson 
car has a fiberglass rear fascia without the DE-bossed rear DeLorean letters. 
Does the ebay car have this fiberglass fascia?

    The interior changes, specifically the lower door cover panel & 
integrated door pull strap are production, however there are some custom 
pieces ...i.e. the knee pad with the 1983 hood emblem, and the center console 
area looks like it was covered in leather. 

    The very early 1981 cars had the binnacles wrapped & stitched in leather. 
The upper door stills have a small kick plate attached on the carpet area and 
screws in the black DMC door still. The very early cars have a stainless 
steel dashboard plate without the door VIN plate.

    However, as the car evolved into what was the 1982 & 1983 cars, as we all 
know, there are changes that differentiate the model years. This car has many 
of the 1982 & 1983 updates cosmetically. There are some mechanical telltale 
signs if this car is in fact a preproduction car. There are three types of 
preproduction cars built is three separate area of the world.
    
    The first type is the prototype with the Citroen 4 cylinder engine and 
ERM underbody. Later the JZD Corporation built a second and third car with a 
Renault Alpine engine. The Citroen powered car is featured in the marketing 
film. These cars were hand built in Detroit. 
    
    The second preproduction car is referred to as the Chestnut fleet cars. 
The Factory began building cars for shipment to the public in April of 1981. 
Prior to that, from December 1980 thru March 1981 there were a series of hand 
built cars called the Chestnut Fleet. There were approximately 40 of these 
preproduction cars hand built as the last prototypes for final approval of 
revisions and pilot production changes. These 40 cars had very early 
Stainless steel panels without the finish characteristic of production 
DeLoreans. They were assembled in the body press building at Dunmurry.

    The third is the Black cars. These third preproduction DeLorean cars were 
hand assembled at Lotus, Coventry England and at the DeLorean parts 
purchasing office in Norwich England, at the same time as the Chestnut Fleet 
cars from December 1980 thru March 1981. These car were internally referred 
to as the engineering or training cars or as the Black cars. There were some 
of these Black cars painted orange, red, blue, and white.  The Black cars are 
fiberglass underbodies without stainless steel panels, however they have 
fiberglass panels and doors. Some had stainless chassises.

    The stainless steel panels were not attached to the black cars due to the 
fact that when Giorgietto Giugiaro updated the styling, the molds for the 
stainless panels need to be tweaked and changed to stamp the new design of 
the exterior dimensions.

    The black cars had fiberglass doors and panels attached so that the cars 
could be driven around the Lotus test tracks. The black cars didn't have full 
interiors or the majority of the productions cars components.

    While the Black cars were at Lotus in England, the Dunmurry team headed 
by Mike Loasby was finalizing the details of the car, primarily the interior 
and parts detail for the QAC'c & dealerships. The Lotus team headed by Tong 
Rudd and Colin Spooner were busy finalizing the exterior shape & details 
along with the emissions, safety and drivetrain certification for the USA.

    When the stainless steel panel details such as, exterior lights and door 
opening shapes were finished, the master plans for the panels, inner hood and 
rear louvre molds, the fenders molds were sent to Thyssen Maschinebau GmbH & 
CO and to BSC Stainless Steel in Sheffield England.

     The fenders, outer hood, louvre, and inner hood parts were 
stamped/fabricated at Thyssen GmbH and not at DMCL. DMCL only assembled the 
hood assemblies at the factory.

    Molds for upper and lower body panels were made by August Lapple GmbH & 
Co. located in the Republic of Ireland. August Lapple is a German automobile 
tool and die company, and the VARI body molds they supplied were used in the 
body press building at DMCL. 

    Dies for the inner and outer rear quarter panels were supplied by 
Allegiare Werke GmbH and BSC Stainless Steel in Sheffield England. These 
panels were also not stamped by DMCL.
    
    The pilot production car were hand assembled at the Belfast Training 
center. They were used for training purposes and taken apart and reassembled 
so that the workforce could understand the assembly and operation of the car. 

    These 40 Chestnut Fleet cars built from December 1980 thru February/March 
1981 were taken apart and dismantled for parts, some went to the USA for 
crash testing, EPA/DOT approval etc. The cars were never intended for sale to 
the public as they became cars for suppliers. exhibition, & some even became 
company cars for USA executives. The door VIN number plate is not attached as 
the stainless steel dashboard plate reads "DeLorean Motor Company Training 
Vehicle."  The majority went back to Dunmurry for dismantling, however a 
handful survived.

Best Wishes,
Michael Pack
    




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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:48:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sean Mulligan <sean_mulligan_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Turns over, doesn't start.

Just wanted to thank Walter, David, Mike, Andy, and
John for trying to help me pinpoint my starting
problem.  After a long and tedious lookover, I found
that the Ignition Control Unit was fried along with my
Wiper/Dimmer Switch.  Thanks again guys!

-Sean Mulligan
 vin #10054

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com



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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:19:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>
Subject: Does one seal one's tires?

So, the tires on the left side of #2867 are hemorraging air (the front
worse that the rear). Analysis reveals that the air is seeping through
between the tire and the rim. The shop has suggested unmounting the tires,
and remounting them with some sealent to keep the air seeping through. Is
this good advice, good advice if you don't care about your wheels,
or Something Else(patent pending)?

--noah



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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:14:45 EDT
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: VIN 7014 RH DeLorean Door 4 sale


Hello,
    I am assisting a former owner sell his right side (passenger side) door. 
The door was replaced due to an unfortunate and very minor fender bender. 
This is the original door from VIN 7014 November 1981 Gray Interior 5-speed.
    The dent can be repaired since the stainless was not creased as the dent 
was caused by a small push. The door does not have any interior parts, door 
lock, glass or window mechanisms.  I have pictures available if there are any 
interested parties.
    I am only assisting the owner, as I am not the owner of the door. If you 
have any questions or if you would like to present an offer, please contact 
me.

Best Wishes,
Michael Pack



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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:55:28 EDT
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: rivnuts

Marc, Walt and others. 
The subject of Rivets came up a couple months ago if i'm not mistaken, and I 
thought then I posted that I have the Tool and all the nuts in stock. I have 
Flushmount aluminum or flat head aluminum, Metric size 4,5,6,8,10. I also 
have nuts that are ribed in Steel yellow zink plating sizes 5,6,8,10.
The tool I can sell outright for about $45.00 and the nut are from about 40 
cents to 75 cents ea. If you don't want to buy the tool, then I can let you 
use it for a deposit. Just let me know what you want and how many. I will 
post all the information on the site next week.
John hervey


<< I found this same kit in my search.  It would be a good candidate for the 
shade tree DeLorean mechanic, but is missing the 8mm size.  Does your 
supplier have a mandrel for 8MM that will fit in this tool?  If so, how much 
is it?
  >>



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