From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1027
Date: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 4:57 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Concours Judges in Memphis - one position left
From: James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>

2. DeLorean cars have asbestos? Courtesy of Class-Action Lawsuits
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

3. Re: Exhaust manifolds Studs
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>

4. Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

5. Re: fuel pump line leaks
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

6. Re: Final Assembly Questions
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

7. The fan fail light
From: "mikesdelorean" <mike_at_dml_ninja.net>

8. MJ FOX Schematic Fundraiser RESULTS:
From: ZillaDelorean_at_dml_aol.com

9. Delorean # 502....at a steal of a price
From: "spaceace3113" <spaceace3113_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: fuel pump line leaks
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

11. Re: Final Assembly Questions
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

12. Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?
From: "Mike Aninger" <mike_at_dml_ninja.net>

13. Re: fuel pump line leaks
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

14. Sighting in Northern VA... WHO IS THIS GUY???
From: "Patrick Cowan" <LilRedCivic_at_dml_cox.rr.com>

15. Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

16. RE: DMC wipers
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_attbi.com>

17. Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

18. Memphis Caravan from the East
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>

19. Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

20. Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

21. Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

22. Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

23. Re: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?
From: id <ionicdesign_at_dml_execpc.com>

24. Re: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>

25. Re: Delorean # 502....at a steal of a price
From: sugapp20_at_dml_aol.com





Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:11:58 -0500
From: James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>
Subject: Concours Judges in Memphis - one position left

Here is the current slate of judges I have lined up for Memphis:

Marty Maier (Illinois) - Interiors
Mike Substelny (Ohio) - Operating Controls
Mark Bourne (England) - Exteriors
Scott Mueller (Alabama) - Undercarriage
Cecil Longwisch (Florida) - Luggage Compartment
OPEN - Engine Compartment

Patti Substelny - Scorer


As you can see there is still one open position. I would prefer to have
someone from the Northeast, or possibly Southern California to make it
geographically diverse.

Current benefits of being a judge are as follows:

- Judges Breakfast morning of the event
- One year subscription to deloreans magazine (or extension if a subscriber)
- Waiver of the $1500 purchase requirement for BRP discount program
- Nifty Judges denim or t-shirt
- Cool appreciation plaque noting your judging experience

Other benefits may be offered based on the location of the event. Secret
Judges handshake still under development at this time.

Please contact me via email if interested.

James Espey
NOTE OUR NEW ADDRESS/PHONE NUMBERS
DeLorean Motor Company
15023 Eddie Drive
Humble, Texas 77396

281/441-2537 Voice
281/441-2813 Fax
800/USA-DMC1
http://www.delorean.com 




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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:28:24 EDT
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: DeLorean cars have asbestos? Courtesy of Class-Action Lawsuits


    Does anyone know if the DeLorean had a significant amount of Asbestos 
used in the car, such as the heat shields, brakes, foam blocks in the 
fiberglass underbody and exhaust manifold gaskets?
     There are new developments about asbestos that was primarily used in 
production automobiles from Europe and the USA back in the 1960s, 1970s and 
1980s.
    If the DeLorean does have asbestos, what parts should be updated, and how 
should we proceed removing it?

I received an asbestos email from another car digest. The email goes into the 
car manufacturing industry as a whole, and some DeLorean suppliers that were 
sued over asbestos.  I have copied it below for you to read.

<<There's an old saying in Detroit: "When the nation's economy catches cold, 
the auto industry comes down with pneumonia." But suppose the nation's auto 
industry, which is responsible for 6.6 million jobs nationwide and an annual 
payroll of $243 billion, came down with pneumonia first. What do you think 
would happen to the rest of the nation's economy?

Americans may soon find out. The nation's Big Three automakers are now under 
assault by a small army of lawyers who are pursuing a class-action suit over 
the past use of asbestos in cars. If they are successful, GM, Ford, and 
Chrysler will face billions of dollars in extra costs over the next 
decade--costs which will drive sticker prices up and sales figures down, and 
almost certainly result in tens of thousands of layoffs from high-paying jobs.

The asbestos lawyers, who include many of the nation's wealthiest attorneys, 
have already feasted on the remains of the nearly 50 major corporations 
they've driven into bankruptcy. Now, like lions on the prowl, they're moving 
on--looking for new prey.

While the initial wave of asbestos litigation in the 1970s concentrated on 
major asbestos manufacturers, the asbestos attorneys of 2002 are targeting 
companies who played no role in manufacturing or selling asbestos. And 
they're doing so by using thousands of plaintiffs who bear no symptoms of 
having a disease related to asbestos. 

The auto industry is a prime example of an industry being sued chiefly 
because it has deep pockets, even though it is highly cyclical and faces 
intense competition from overseas rivals. There's no doubt that the 
automakers and their parts suppliers used asbestos, a naturally occurring 
fiber whose heat-resistant qualities made it an excellent choice for brake 
pads and shoes, in addition to its familiar use as an all-purpose flame 
retardant. But they did so only after receiving assurances from asbestos 
manufacturers (and, in some cases, the government) that the material was safe 
for a particular application. 
The use of asbestos in manufacturing began to wane in the late 1970s when it 
was discovered that prolonged exposure to it could cause serious respiratory 
diseases, such as asbestosis. The plaintiffs' lawyers turned toward the Big 
Three automakers and other "innocent bystander" industries only after 
asbestos manufacturers, such as Johns Manville and W. R.  Grace, sought 
sanctuary in bankruptcy court. "Anybody with asbestos products has a reason 
to be concerned," said Jim Zamoyski, a senior vice president with 
Federal-Mogul, a Southfield, Michigan, auto parts supplier that was sued into 
bankruptcy after acquiring companies that made asbestos brake linings. "Over 
the years, the first tier got wiped out. The second tier got wiped out. We're 
actually the third tier, and we got wiped out."

Curiously, there were few asbestos-brake cases filed against automakers by 
mechanics and other workers until the personal-injury lawyers began drumming 
up customers after Federal-Mogul filed for bankruptcy last October.

The lawyers' recruiting efforts produced swift results. In the last quarter 
of 2001, asbestos lawsuits against the Big Three automakers soared to more 
than 3,500 a month--about 20 times the rate for the first 9 months of the 
year. 

The growing threat was accentuated in February when a Manhattan jury returned 
a landmark $53 million verdict against GM, Ford, Chrysler, and several of 
their brake suppliers on behalf of a Maine man who was first exposed to 
asbestos as a brake specialist in 1968. It was the largest amount ever 
awarded to a single plaintiff in an asbestos suit.

All told, more than 20,000 lawsuits are pending against the Big Three, and 
thousands more are lined up for such leading brake manufacturers as Honeywell 
International, Delphi Corp., Dana Corp., and Bosch. 
Financial analysts estimate that the cost of defending such lawsuits could 
easily top $2 billion, providing extra incentive to defendants to settle out 
of court. 

"If these lawsuits go forward, you're looking at the era of the $30,000 
subcompact car," said an industry insider in Detroit. "Those potentially huge 
judgments will end up on the side-window stickers of new cars everywhere. In 
the very near future, consumers will pick up the tab--including the 30-40 
percent contingency fees that go to the lawyers."

Congress has attempted to limit asbestos liability on ten different occasions 
in the past two decades, but each time the personal-injury lawyers and their 
allies managed to scuttle the legislation. Congressional Democrats alone 
received $77 million from personal-injury lawyers in the 2000 election cycle. 

With legislative remedies unlikely, it's time for the judiciary itself to 
step forward and institute needed reforms. One who could set the example is 
Senior U.S. District Judge Charles Weiner, who oversees asbestos claims in 
the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. Weiner has attempted to confine 
asbestos trials only to compensatory damages--the amount required to make 
plaintiffs whole--while keeping punitive-damage claims on hold.

"The idea is to make sure enough money is left at the end of the day to pay 
the claims of those actually injured by asbestos, rather than healthy people 
lumped into the class-actions by money-hungry lawyers. The sick and the 
dying, [and] their widows and survivors, should have their claims addressed 
first," he said. The nation's car buyers--and taxpayers--are likely to 
respond with a robust "amen.">>



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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:18:37 -0500
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust manifolds Studs

In most American built cars, the exhaust bolts are soft steel, for just that
reason. it's easy to drill/ez-out the remains when they break. Not so if you
use a hardened part. 8.8 would rival pretty much any drill point. 10.9,
forget it... you aren't drilling that without annealing it first. A task
that is pretty much impossible in the Aluminum head.

A bit off-subject, but an experience with coating studs. I thought the steel
studs with surface rust looked like hell... they were the only parts not
nice and shinny my t-bucket. I had them hard chromed... they looked a nice
dull gray... resisted rust rather well. When I went to pull my 6-71 off I
found the reaction between the Chrome, and Aluminum had left the
supercharger stuck to the studs like they were super-glued together.

later I found out that heavy phosphate Parkerizing was the correct answer to
the rusting problem.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 08:20
Subject: [DML] Exhaust manifolds Studs


> You may want to talk to Toby about the studs/bolts. I am not sure what the
optimum material and coating would be.
>
> This is one project I did with little research, I just purchased the parts
I needed from PJ Grady.   Like I said before, I think it was CAD plated
steel.. Probably 8.8
>
> I don't think 10.9 would be good, because if a stud did break it would
make it more difficult to remove.  I could be wrong.
>
> It would be nice to have some material that does not rust.  I think use of
never-seize is an acceptable solution to make sure that in another 20 years
when we have to do this job again it goes easier, but aesthetically I don't
like to see rust!  So, the only problem here that may need solving (I don't
know if or when the new studs will rust) is how it looks.  Maybe someone who
did this job a few years back can see how their studs and nuts look now?
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com [mailto:dherv10_at_dml_aol.com]
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:53 PM
> > To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [DML] Exhaust manifolds removal?
> >
> >
> > Marc, If SS bolts arn't good for the aluminum, then what
> > would be the best.
> > Just regular high grade bolts 10.9, higher than what's in the
> > car and maby
> > plate them. I have access to all the bolts and have parts
> > plated by a shop
> > close to me.  I can get 7mm bolts from full thread 12mm long
> > to partial
> > thread up to 70 mm long.
> > I just need to know the size needed.
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:00:08 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?

My method of choice for removing stuck bolts is to use an impact wrench.  My
logic here is that a jarring motion is more apt to shake it loose; whereas,
a slow gradually increasing torque applied by hand will let it twist off and
break.

I'm not advocating to put the impact wrench on its maximum setting the first
try.  What I do is gradually increase the setting on the wrench so that
somewhere along the way the bolt will shake loose.

What is the better anti-seize compound to use on the manifolds?  The silver
stuff or the copper stuff?  I generally use the silver stuff on aluminum and
the copper on everything else.  Is there any truth to this superstition or
is the copper better in every application?

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:30:16 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: fuel pump line leaks

Mike,

Sledge hammers & welding the fuel line, eh?  :-)  In order to replace the
steel line, the body has to be lifted off the frame.  And I'm not sure if
you are ready to do a frame off restoration just yet.

The brass fittings that PJ Grady sells are a lot softer than the OEM steel
fittings and should likewise seal better with less torque.  I suggest taking
it apart and checking to see if any trash got in the way or if there are any
scratches or deformities in the fitting to stop it from seating properly.

It is totally inappropriate to use teflon tape in this fitting.  The threads
don't make the seal.  They only compress the sealing surfaces together.  And
the seal comes from the surfaces slightly deforming onto each other as they
are compressed.  Teflon tape won't do any good here.

The proper tools for these fittings are called "line wrenches".  These are a
hybrid between an open end crescent wrench and a box wrench.  Think of it as
a box wrench with the end cut open enough to fit over the line.  These "wrap
around" the fittings better than a plain open end wrench and are less apt to
distort it.  On my DeLorean, I found that the flexible fuel line is too
thick for my line wrench to snap over, but I had no trouble fitting one on
the metal line.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:38:12 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Final Assembly Questions

> What should I torque the fuel line bolts to? 

The specs are listed in the Workshop Manual.

> Where does the hose on the top of the warm up regulator go to?

It is just a vent.  The open end points down to keep stuff from falling in.

Walt




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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:03:53 -0000
From: "mikesdelorean" <mike_at_dml_ninja.net>
Subject: The fan fail light

Being a DeLorean lover, but not an owner just yet.  I am doing all I 
can to learn about the DeLorean so the knowlege is there when I do 
get it.  There is a lot of talk lately about the fan fail light.  As 
far as I have read, the light doesn't seem to work at all (in the 
sense that the light should come on when the fans do not operate at 
the proper moment).  What is the original true purpose of this 
light?  Does it have another function?

-Mike




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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:48:48 EDT
From: ZillaDelorean_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: MJ FOX Schematic Fundraiser RESULTS:

In September 2001 we began our first DeLorean Owners Fundraising event for 
the MJ Fox Parkinson's Research Foundation.
For the period of  9/15 - 4/17/2002, we received donations from 70 DeLorean 
Owners.

The Zilla version of the Enlargable DeLorean schematic & the PJ Grady / Zilla 
Emergency Glove Box Manual brought in a total of $1,145 
100% of all donations collected were forwarded.
No money was withheld for any expenses or credit card transaction fees.

On 4/17 the foundation sent DeLorean owners ( around the world ) the 
following acknowledgment :

Thank you for your contribution to the Michael J Fox Foundation for 
Parkinson's Research. Our Foundation is dedicated to finding a cure for 
Parkinson's decease in the next decade and your generous support will help 
bring us closer to this goal.
I am grateful you have joined our efforts to end the suffering caused by this 
disease.

( signature in black ball point pen)
Michael J. Fox
Chairman

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS:
We'd like to thank Dave Swingle, a tireless editor of the DML,  for placing 
our fundraising details on the DML homepage.


The Honor of the Largest Single Donation:
$150 Les Huskins   
For a donation of this magnitude we sent ( at our expense )   a Zilla tool 
case.

The second runner up for highest donation goes to:
Todd Masinelli   at $40

THOUGHTS ON THE Donation Process:
Many owners were very touched by this event.
A surprising number of owners have some form of Neurological disorder. All 
the feedback was VERY positive and the feeling we got made it worth the 
effort. 
But......, 
As great as it feels & as wonderful as it was to see owners come forward to 
make a pledge, I am left with a feeling that as a group we could do much 
better.
I imagine that there are a GREAT many DML readers who put this fundraiser on 
their "to-do" list and then it fell into the cracks. 
Well, we're gonna give it one more crack.

Ken Koncelik ( deloreancarshow.com ) has graciously donated Thursday's Dinner 
( Memphis show ) to the MJ Fox Fundraising  effort.  
Zilla & PJ Grady will be donating a "truckload" of Tool Cases & DeLorean 
Accessories to be raffled off. 
BTTF.com will also be hosting this fundraiser.
( ANY Vendor reading this who would like to participate is urged to contact 
me right away )

PS   
WALL SIZE  3' x 4'  Fundraiser Schematics will be available at the show !

Thanks again for all your support !
See ya in Memphis.
Bob & the Gang at Zilla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:53:32 -0000
From: "spaceace3113" <spaceace3113_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Delorean # 502....at a steal of a price

Rob Grady does own # 502 i called him today ....and hes only asking 
$75,000....i could come up with maybe 50 but not 75...any other 
takers???




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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 00:08:44 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: fuel pump line leaks

Mike this sort of crush-fitting is used in high pressure hydraulics handling pressures
hundreds of times higher than in the DeLorean fuel system. I reckon the end of the hard
line coming out from the frame probably had some grit on it when you tightened it up.
It's not the threads that create the seal, so teflon tape won't help. Just pull them
apart, and make sure both sides of the fitting are clean, then reassemble.

Martin
#1458

billsfanmd_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

>
> Whoever designed this fuel hose system &^%$# ....I would just like to weld
> the entire hose to the fuel line than worry each day that a leak has returned
> becasue a thread is a millionth of an inch loose....Anybody have this problem
> and how did you solve it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike in Baltimore
> 2109




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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 00:10:20 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Final Assembly Questions

Hi George

I've used Nick's diagram on numerous occasions:

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/fuelhoses.htm

Martin
#1458

georad1 wrote:

> My second question is, Where does the hose on the top of the warm up regulator go to? I can't remember it connecting to anything. After I get her running properly (the whole fuel system is now new) all I have left to do is to replace the rotors, pads and axle boots.




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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:38:28 -0400
From: "Mike Aninger" <mike_at_dml_ninja.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?

An impact wrench!?  On rusted bolts!?  One word:  no... no... no... no, no,
no, no, no!!!  The impact wrench can work, only on heavy duty nuts and bolt
such as lug nuts and the like.  As it was said in another message, these are
light duty studs and nuts that can be extracted on and emergency basis.
Using an impact wrench will have the most effect on the area CLOSEST TO THE
DRIVING FORCE (for you physics folks out there my vocabulay may not be up to
snuff, but the concept is simple).  If the rust has already begun to weaken
the bolt, high impact energy will not get a chance to transfer to the bolt's
(or stud's) treads and can continue to weaken the bolt.  A SLOW steady
increase of force will allow the energy to transfer better past the weak
spots better and to the threads, which is where you want it.  Sometimes this
can be a slow go, but the heartache saved from no broken studs should give
you enough satisfastion.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Exhaust manifolds removal?


> My method of choice for removing stuck bolts is to use an impact wrench.
My
> logic here is that a jarring motion is more apt to shake it loose;
whereas,
> a slow gradually increasing torque applied by hand will let it twist off
and
> break.
>
> I'm not advocating to put the impact wrench on its maximum setting the
first
> try.  What I do is gradually increase the setting on the wrench so that
> somewhere along the way the bolt will shake loose.
>
> What is the better anti-seize compound to use on the manifolds?  The
silver
> stuff or the copper stuff?  I generally use the silver stuff on aluminum
and
> the copper on everything else.  Is there any truth to this superstition or
> is the copper better in every application?
>
> Walt    Tampa, FL
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 04:18:43 -0000
From: "tmpintnl" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: fuel pump line leaks

Mike - I'm not totally sure I understand where your leak is, but I 
wanted to relate an experience that I had years ago.  My car suddenly 
developed a leak while driving through Deerlodge, Montana (of all 
places!) on a Sunday (read - nothing open).  I got the car back to 
Seattle without a fire.  It turned out that the leak was in the joint 
between the fuel accumulator and the hard line that runs along the 
frame back to the filter.  The flared end of the hard line had 
developed a crack, right in the flare itself.  Replacement of the 
hard line requires body removal (not on MY watch!), so I had a new 
high-pressure flexible line made to bypass it.  As Martin said, it 
could be just a speck of debris, but look very carefully at all 
details of the lines involved.  Cracks can happen when you stretch or 
crush metal.  Good luck.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1


> I am now getting a leak where one of my fuel pump hoses (the main 
line not the return) where the fuel pump hose meets the metal fuel 
line of the car. 




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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 00:41:09 -0400
From: "Patrick Cowan" <LilRedCivic_at_dml_cox.rr.com>
Subject: Sighting in Northern VA... WHO IS THIS GUY???

Hey all...

i was at work today at the Cascades Blockbuster, while i was checking in tapes, i just slightly glanced outside in time to see a delorean drive right by. at this point, me and my co-worker, ran out the door to see. if you are the owner of this car, and was in cascades shopping center in sterling VA on 05/14/2002, PLEASE email me directly _at_dml_ lilredcivic_at_dml_cox.rr.com


Thanx and goodnight!!!
Patrick Cowan
ASM-Blockbuster Video Inc.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:18:29 -0400
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail

Martin,

Is this device being produced to compete with the Fanzilla?

DMC Joe
Tech Information, DMC Joe Help Club, & Store
"Summer Parts Sale"
http://shopping.oraclesmallbusiness.com/dsvstore
DeLorean Website Directory www.dmc.tv

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gutkowski" <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [DML] Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail


> Well, seeing as the subject came up :-)
>
> The problem with all the systems described EXCEPT the Fanzilla (to my
> knowledge - I have never seen one much less taken it apart) is that the
> fain fail light can only tell you when the voltage is going to the fans,
> or when the fans should be on, or when there's an imbalance between the
> fans. None of these solutions actually "know" when a fan is or is not
> drawing current when it should. The only way to do this efficiently is
> with a hall effect sensor - the original fan fail module did it this
> way, but only comparing one fan to the other, and it was appallingly made.
>
> I have been asked about the progress of my little project to make a fan
> sequencer and restore the fan-fail light functionality. I've been really
> busy the past month - 2 weeks filming a TV show in Glasgow (nothing to
> do with DeLoreans), and two joyful weeks of good weather with my
> DeLorean parked outside, so every evening was spent working on it, and
> not sweating over a hot soldering iron! However, as members of the
> dmc_electrics list know, I did produce a design. I found some truly
> fantastic IC's made by Philips which are BUK202-50X 20A high-side
> switches with status pin. They make it possible to build a completely
> solid-state fan sequencer from fewer than 20 components, which gives a
> genuine "fan fail" signal. Here's the design
>
> http://www.delorean.co.uk/electronics/fandelay2.jpg
>
> A drives the fan, B drives the fan-fail light. Two of these circuits
> need to be built, one per fan. R3 sets the delay. For those who are
> comfortable with data sheets, I've put it here
>
> http://www.cix.co.uk/~mgutkowski/20A_switch.pdf
>
> The BUK203 is exactly the same, but will only drive 4A and is cheaper,
> so ideal for the fan fail light. This device has open and short circuit
> detection, overheat protection (negating the need for a fuse) and under
> all these failure conditions, will light the fan-fail light.
>
> NB I have NOT tested this yet, but as the subject came up.... :-)
>
> Martin
> #1458
>
> DMC Joe wrote:
>
> >You said :
> >        ".........Also why not run one additional accessory relay so the
> >light only indicates a "fail" condition when there really is no voltage
> >going to one of the fans?.."
> >
> >There is a device that does all of the above and more; it's called
> >"Fanzilla"!
> >
> >DMC Joe
> >Tech Information, DMC Joe Help Club, & Store
> >
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:52:59 -0700
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_attbi.com>
Subject: RE: DMC wipers

you can poick them up at any CSK store,

Darkstar

-----Original Message-----
From: DMC Joe [mailto:dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net]
Sent: May 14, 2002 5:55 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] DMC wipers


The Bosh number is 40920. The Bosh blades are available from DeLorean
Services and PJ Grady as part# 100809G $12.45.

DMC Joe
Tech Information, DMC Joe Help Club, & Store
"Summer Parts Sale"
http://shopping.oraclesmallbusiness.com/dsvstore
DeLorean Website Directory www.dmc.tv

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher M. Hawes" <chris_at_dml_hawes74.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: [DML] DMC wipers


> I am trying to find replace Bosch wipers, does anyone know the spec for
> them?
>
> Chris
> vin 5255
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:14:36 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail

NO! - this has never been my intention. I have always said that I will 
not try and make these items for sale, but to design and test a system 
that works the same way, and to make *my* design available "open source" 
for anyone who'd like to build it themselves too. I don't have anything 
to gain from this other than saving myself the price of a FanZilla, and 
oiling the rusty gears of my electronics knowledge! I've never even seen 
a FanZilla, much less taken one apart. What it does, if not how it 
works, is common knowledge.

Rob asked me the other day about my fan delay system, the way I've 
re-engineered the door lock module, my new design for that, and the 
remote starter/alarm I've fitted to my car, and how I intend interfacing 
it to door-openers. He was interested but hardly concerned that I'd be 
stealing any business :-)

Martin
#1458

DMC Joe wrote:

>Martin,
>
>Is this device being produced to compete with the Fanzilla?
>
>DMC Joe
>





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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:22:33 -0400
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>
Subject: Memphis Caravan from the East

A group from northern Ohio plans to leave on the morning of Wednesday,
June 12.  We will drive as far as Bowling Green, KY, where we will spend
the night at The Country Hearth Hotel:

http://www.countryhearth.com/hotels/ky-bowlinggreen.htm

The Country Hearth is just off Interstate 65 and right beside the
National Corvette Museum.

http://www.corvettemuseum.com/

Whe'll get up in the morning and have breakfast (free from the hotel)
then tour the museum (it opens at 8:00).  Then we'll be on the road in
time to get to Memphis in the middle of the afternoon on Thursday, June
13.

Anyone else who happens to have I-65 as part of their route is welcome
to join us, either in or before Bowling Green.

- Mike Substelny




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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:58:14 EDT
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail

In a message dated 5/15/02 8:46:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net 
writes:

<< Martin,
 
 Is this device being produced to compete with the Fanzilla?
  >>
 Martin has made everything about his design public, right down to the part 
numbers. I don't think he has the same profit driven motive that a vendor 
would have, nor is he likely to flood the market with Fanzilla competitors 
(although I suppose it is possible). I applaud his efforts and encourage 
others to contribute as Martin has. It makes our cars more understandable, 
more fun to own and work on, and more affordable.
Jim 6147



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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:27:14 EDT
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail

Martin, Joe and Group.
The Fan Fix is not an engineering marvel. It's an electronic device that 
works and keeps the price down under $100.00.  The way it's wired, each fan 
works on it's own relay, so you have a 14 amp fan load on a 40 amp relay 
instead of two fans working on one 40 amp relay. The unit is wired to show 
voltage going to the fans:hense the fan fail light, lights up when power is 
going to them. It's not a hall effect sensor effect. As yawl know the under 
design on the De lorean didn't work long till it burned up or cooked it's 
self and was rendered useless. So, due to the extreme low to no failure rate 
of the fans, The Fan Fix and the fan Fail replacement was wired to show 
voltage going to the fans by lighting the center consol light. The upgrade I 
build is better than the official replacement in the De lorean work book and 
replacement. De lorean used a jumper wire. We fuse ours where they didn't. De 
lorean wasn''t worried about the fans either due to the low failure rate.
If people will look at the positive instead of always looking at the negative 
and understand the unit before it's criticized, you may see some of the 
positive features of the fan fix lighting the light on the dash.
#1. You can see the cycling of the A/C low pressure switch when your low on 
Freon. This will help you from destroying the $250.00 + compressor. :-)
#2. When the A/C isn't running, you can now see when the otterstat is cycling 
on and off by the dash light and not have to guess or not even hear at all 
the fan are or not coming on. :-). Then you can reference by the gauge when 
they are coming on.
#3. The way The Fan Fix Dual 2 x 2 is wired, the Circuit breaker is 
eliminated because we now faster acting fuses instead of the old slow circuit 
breaker. :-). 
The circuit breaker is always going to over heat and scorch the wires and 
turn on and off giving you false sense of what's going on. :-(,,. If you 
upgrade to the 40+ amps breaker, your just allowing more current to flow and 
you have lost any protection you may have had.
#4. Also by the way I wire it, you no longer draw power off the wiring loom 
which will lessen the load on the electronic ECU's.
By these simple ways of designing the units, the price is right, it's 
warranty for life, and it's not an engineering, complex device that has more 
parts to over heat, break and run the price up. I go by the KISS theory. 
Keep up the good work. I like to see engineers get onto a problem and make it 
bigger that what is:-)..
P.S. I could build all the features into my unit, then the price would go up 
and then all I would hear is the complaints of high price.
Have a good one.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/
Trying to keep it simple.
    



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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:33:55 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?

How would you even get an impact onto the nuts holding the exhaust 
manifolds on? You cannot use universal sockets and extentions as they 
reduce the impact effect and besides there is very little control when 
using an impact wrench. Look at how often they break wheel lugs off in 
tire shops. Even if it did work you would probably rip the threads off 
of everything. Go to Midas or Meineke and you will see how the 
professionals do this kind of work, with an acetalyne torch, sawzalls 
and pneumatic ractchets (not impacts). Everyone has their favorite 
method for removing stubborn fasteners. Many novices are not 
comfortable using a torch but I have found it to be the method of 
choice whenever possible. There are many circumstances where use of a 
torch isn't appropriate, usually because of flammable things too close 
by like fuel lines, cloth, and fiberglass. When working on exhaust 
systems that isn't usually a problem because things that can be 
damaged by heat aren't usually placed close to the exhaust anyway.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> My method of choice for removing stuck bolts is to use an impact 
wrench.  My
> logic here is that a jarring motion is more apt to shake it loose; 
whereas,
> a slow gradually increasing torque applied by hand will let it twist 
off and





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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:36:09 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fan Fail Light Without Actual Fan Fail

Okay John a few points back to you :-)

#1  In my design, I've kept the "quirk" of the light coming on for a 
second each time the fans engage. Should one or other fail, it'll stay 
on. I like the visual indicator too.
#3  If the motors have such a low failure rate, they should never draw 
enough to trip the circuit breaker anyway. The excess current is created 
by poor connections in the crimps, terminals etc. You're bypassing these 
with your system, I'd replace them.
#4  The design I've come up with thus far is very simple - I was very 
pleased when I found those Philips switches because as everyone knows, 
solid state devices (no moving parts) are MORE reliable than relays. 
Cost of components is about $20 total....

I happilly stick my hand in the air and say "of course this isn't 
necessary" - but the DeLorean was designed to tell you when one of your 
fans fail - a unique feature I'd like to restore. I also like the 
sequencing function of the FanZilla, which my design performs, yours 
does not.

To answer your specific comment "I like to see engineers get onto a 
problem and make it bigger than it is" reminds me of a saying among 
engineers "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is" :-) Seriously though, I 
started thinking of all possible outcomes: What about a freak piece of 
debris flying up from the wheel and slicing through the cabling to the 
fans? My system (and the FanZilla, as far as I know) will detect this 
immediately. Yours will not.

In designing and building fighting robots, there's one lesson I've 
learnt very painfully: Don't design the thing for all the eventualities 
you can think of, design it for those you CAN'T think of..

I really do need to stop talking about it and go and actually BUILD one 
of these badgers, don't I?!!!

Martin
#1458


dherv10_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

>Martin, Joe and Group.
>
<snip>




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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:55:00 -0500
From: id <ionicdesign_at_dml_execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?

personally i worked a a goodyear installing tires, 40 hours a week for 2 years and i
never broke a lug nut off with a impact wrench. in fact there is allot of control with
an impact wrench. there is a dial on the impact that lets you use the amount of force
you want to use to unloosen a bolt or what ever you want to take off.

a pneumatic ratchet is just as bad because usually there isn't any adjustment for the
force you are applying to the bolts you are taking off and the pneumatic ratchet takes
off with maximum force and maximum force will snap a nut fast. a socket wrench is the
only tool that wouldn't do this because you use your hand to adjust the force being
applied.

and if you were using universal sockets and extensions with a impact wrench it would
reduce the force even more and i still dont think you could snap a nut with all of these
universal sockets and extensions on anyway.

i have broken more nuts and bolts with an ordinary socket wrench. pick up a impact
wrench and play with the adjustment dial and you will see what i am talking about.

mark



jtrealtywebspannet wrote:

> How would you even get an impact onto the nuts holding the exhaust
> manifolds on? You cannot use universal sockets and extentions as they
> reduce the impact effect and besides there is very little control when
> using an impact wrench. Look at how often they break wheel lugs off in
> tire shops. Even if it did work you would probably rip the threads off
> of everything. Go to Midas or Meineke and you will see how the
> professionals do this kind of work, with an acetalyne torch, sawzalls
> and pneumatic ractchets (not impacts). Everyone has their favorite
> method for removing stubborn fasteners. Many novices are not
> comfortable using a torch but I have found it to be the method of
> choice whenever possible. There are many circumstances where use of a
> torch isn't appropriate, usually because of flammable things too close
> by like fuel lines, cloth, and fiberglass. When working on exhaust
> systems that isn't usually a problem because things that can be
> damaged by heat aren't usually placed close to the exhaust anyway.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
>
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> > My method of choice for removing stuck bolts is to use an impact
> wrench.  My
> > logic here is that a jarring motion is more apt to shake it loose;
> whereas,
> > a slow gradually increasing torque applied by hand will let it twist
> off and
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 24
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:47:34 -0500
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?

there is a rather significant difference between a lug stud, and a 20 year
old, heat damaged 7mm stud!
Most exhaust shops will heat the stuck parts with the "gas axe" before even
attempting removal.

----- Original Message -----
From: "id" <ionicdesign_at_dml_execpc.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 10:55
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Exhaust manifolds removal?


> personally i worked a a goodyear installing tires, 40 hours a week for 2
years and i
> never broke a lug nut off with a impact wrench. in fact there is allot of
control with
> an impact wrench. there is a dial on the impact that lets you use the
amount of force
> you want to use to unloosen a bolt or what ever you want to take off.
>
> a pneumatic ratchet is just as bad because usually there isn't any
adjustment for the
> force you are applying to the bolts you are taking off and the pneumatic
ratchet takes
> off with maximum force and maximum force will snap a nut fast. a socket
wrench is the
> only tool that wouldn't do this because you use your hand to adjust the
force being
> applied.
>
> and if you were using universal sockets and extensions with a impact
wrench it would
> reduce the force even more and i still dont think you could snap a nut
with all of these
> universal sockets and extensions on anyway.
>
> i have broken more nuts and bolts with an ordinary socket wrench. pick up
a impact
> wrench and play with the adjustment dial and you will see what i am
talking about.
>
> mark
>
>
>
> jtrealtywebspannet wrote:
>
> > How would you even get an impact onto the nuts holding the exhaust
> > manifolds on? You cannot use universal sockets and extentions as they
> > reduce the impact effect and besides there is very little control when
> > using an impact wrench. Look at how often they break wheel lugs off in
> > tire shops. Even if it did work you would probably rip the threads off
> > of everything. Go to Midas or Meineke and you will see how the
> > professionals do this kind of work, with an acetalyne torch, sawzalls
> > and pneumatic ractchets (not impacts). Everyone has their favorite
> > method for removing stubborn fasteners. Many novices are not
> > comfortable using a torch but I have found it to be the method of
> > choice whenever possible. There are many circumstances where use of a
> > torch isn't appropriate, usually because of flammable things too close
> > by like fuel lines, cloth, and fiberglass. When working on exhaust
> > systems that isn't usually a problem because things that can be
> > damaged by heat aren't usually placed close to the exhaust anyway.
> > David Teitelbaum
> > vin 10757
> >
> > --- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> > > My method of choice for removing stuck bolts is to use an impact
> > wrench.  My
> > > logic here is that a jarring motion is more apt to shake it loose;
> > whereas,
> > > a slow gradually increasing torque applied by hand will let it twist
> > off and
> >
> > To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> > moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> > To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:57:31 -0400
From: sugapp20_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Delorean # 502....at a steal of a price


 I'm not trying to sound dumb but, I am still learning all about Deloreans and I don't know why #502 is so special.  Will some one tell me? Thanks. 

                                                   Nick



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