From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1032
Date: Saturday, May 18, 2002 7:13 PM

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There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Type of fuel to use
From: "mccarthy410" <mccarthy410_at_dml_yahoo.com>

2. More questions
From: "mccarthy410" <mccarthy410_at_dml_yahoo.com>

3. Update: Overheating Fuel Tank.
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

4. Re: The Resurrection of Vixen Continues...
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

5. Re: Overheating Fuel Tank.
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

6. Re: Auto tranny cooler
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>

7. Re: DeLorean Transmission choices
From: "adam_one_million" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>

8. RE: Overheating Fuel Tank.
From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_att.net>

9. Re: Auto tranny cooler
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: DeLorean Transmission choices
From: "shainbrannan" <shain_at_dml_elecmods.com>

11. Re: DeLorean Transmission choices
From: iznodmad_at_dml_aol.com

12. Re: DeLorean transmission choices
From: Farrar Hudkins <fhudkins_at_dml_uno.edu>

13. Shift Pattern (was: More questions)
From: "Michael Babb" <michael_at_dml_babbtechnology.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 03:18:21 -0000
From: "mccarthy410" <mccarthy410_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Type of fuel to use

Hi,

I am a new prospective owner of a DeLorean, before I buy, I'm 
gathering all info I can.  One question comes to mind,  I know the 
manual and several sites say to use 91 Octane fuel,  only thing close 
to it is 93, and that does get expensive.   Can  87 or 89 Octane be 
used with no ill effects? I'm told how the Europeans and how the U.S. 
rates gasoline are two different things,  any truth to this?

Thanks. 




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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 03:32:29 -0000
From: "mccarthy410" <mccarthy410_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: More questions

Hi again,


I apologise for asking so many questions,   I have more questions.  
One, is the DeLorean shift pattern for the manual the same as any 
other car? (Example: 1 3 5 
                     | | |
                     -----
                     | | |
                     2 4 R)  

Or is it a little different?  Two,  with the Automatic,  what fluid 
is required?  Three, I'm in Virginia,  close to Winchester and the 
Northern VA near DC,  anyone there that know DeLoreans from a repair 
standpoint?   Four,  I know most speedometers go up to 85MPH,  I've 
seen ones that go to 95, 140 and 170.  Is this worth doing or is it 
mostly for asthetics?   Five,  how easy or hard is it to insure a 
DeLorean, under a company such as Progressive, GEICO, etc.

Thanks again. 





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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 03:34:22 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Update: Overheating Fuel Tank.

Took my car back out again today, and recreated the same 
problem. This time, I had filled up the tank, and got the same 
problem. So filling the tank with cool fuel fresh from the pump 
doesn't solve the issue. Now, I've had this same problem since 
before I installed the spring inside of the fuel pump pick-up 
hose. The only difference is that since installing the spring, I'm 
able to maintain accelleration. Although, I am al for excluding 
both the spring, and the pick up hose all together to avoid these 
potential problems.

However, here is an interesting fact. I disconnected the vacuum 
hose from between the carbon canister, and the intake manifold. 
I clamped the manifold hose, and then connected a vacuum 
hose to the canister. Engine started, and idled fine. When I 
applied the vacuum, nothing happened. Until I increased 
pressure up to 12 PSI. Once this happened, the engine flooded 
out from the vapor pressure from the gas tank!. After this, I was 
able to get the same results _at_dml_ about 5-6 PSI. Once I applied the 
vacuum, it would slowly decrease until it reached 3 PSI. Are 
these normal pressures for the diaphram inside to activate at? It 
seems to me that the diaphram is malfunctioning, and is the 
cause of the swelling of my fuel tank. If it was properly "draining" 
the gas vapors out, I don't believe that the motor would have 
flooded. If nothing else, I need to replace both the canister, and 
the hose(s).

Can excess pressure in the tank cause a noisy pump? My gut 
feeling is that it's what's responsable for my fuel vapors inside of 
my passenger compartment. Although I still intend to shield the 
tank from the water pipes below.

Thank you for all of the input so far both on, and off the list. I do 
appriciate it!

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 20:36:15 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: The Resurrection of Vixen Continues...

> Question though:  Should I install the front windshield now, or wait until
all of the interior (like the dash pad) is installed first?

Which ever order you install them in, be sure to do a neat job with the
windshield adhesive around the defrost vents.  On some cars there is a lot
of "caulk bead" showing.  I would like to know if anyone has any pointers on
cleaning up a sloppy job.  I assume mine is originally sloppy from the
factory, and I would like to find a way to hide/clean it up.  I'm thinking
about sewing up a welt using some cord covered with upholstery fabric and
then tucking/gluing it into the gap.  Maybe if you know what to look out
for, you can install your windshield in such a way to avoid having a bead
show.

Walt




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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 22:45:21 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Overheating Fuel Tank.

> So, my guess is not that the fuel hose
> is collapsing ( there is a spring installed), but that the excess
> heat in the tank is causing the internals of the pump to expand,
> and thus grind making the sound.

My opinion is that the pump doesn't change tolerance, but rather the fuel is
more apt to cavitate when hot.  According to Boyle's Law in this situation:
as temperature is increased, the pressure at which the fuel boils is reduced
to less than the vacuum produced in the pump.  So literally the fuel is
boiling inside the pump due to high temperature coupled with low pressure.

The best cure, obviously, is to keep the fuel cool.  The easiest place to
start is reducing the heat transfer from the coolant pipes.  As you may
already know, aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat.  And there isn't
much room for insulation between the pipes & the fuel tank.  I suggested
before that an easy improvement would be to replace these sections of
aluminum pipe with long pieces of silicone hose -- the same type sold by the
vendors used to connect between the pipes.  This might provide enough
insulation to cure the problem.  If no one else tries it soon, I'll try it
myself eventually before I go to the trouble of making a new fuel tank from
stainless.

> Now, from all this, I have determined the following:
> 1. A noisy fuel pump isn't always due to a collapsing fuel pick-up
> hose.

You got that right!  I installed a spring in my hose, too, and it seems to
only make the problem worse -- by conducting the sound better and by
producing more restriction/turbulence.

> 2. Air flow from the front radiator is NOT heating the fuel. When I
> stopped the air flow, the noise became worse. It wasn't until I
> restored air flow that there was a sign of cooling.

This contradicts what I've read about installing an air dam.  I would like
to hear more about your theory here.  I have found that once the fuel gets
hot enough to cavitate, it stays hot for a long time.  A friend came over to
have me work on his car, and after the car sat for a while we went to work
in the fuel tank.  Reaching in there reminded me of looking for a lost
thermometer up a horse's ass.  :-)   With gloves on everything feels the
same -- hot & squishy.

> So, now  I have the
> following questions. I've seen ads that giving a ceramic coating
> to exhaut pipes helps to keep the heat inside of them, and
> reduces the heat in the engine compartment. Does this really
> work?

I suppose so, but I don't think it would work very well on the coolant
pipes.  Gasses don't conduct heat as well as liquid.  And I doubt they could
get that ceramic to stick to aluminum anyway.  I wouldn't be surprised to
hear that they heat the exhaust systems well above the melting temperature
for aluminum to get the ceramic to flow.

> If so, can I expect the same results for the two sections of
> pipe next to the tank?

I have a better idea:  try wrapping the coolant pipes in insulating tape
meant for exhaust headers.  It would be cheaper & easier than having the
pipes ceramic coated.  That would probably work as well or better than
old-fashioned asbestos cloth.

> I've no idea what kind of a reaction household insulation
> would have with high water temps and/or chemicals found in
> that region of the car.

Household insulation wouldn't work well at all because it works by
restricting air movement.  To do this, large quantities of air must be
trapped in the material.  There simply isn't enough room in our situation.
And compressing this type of insulation makes it far less efficient.  An
alternative that I have considered is expanding foam spray insulation sold
at hardware stores under the brand name "Great Stuff".  It is good up to
temperatures of 400F, and the coolant pipes don't get anywhere near that
hot.  The main drawback is that this type of insulation needs space to work
well, and that is something we don't have here.

> Venting the tank to air flow is another entire possibility, but I have
> concerns about aerodynamics and compromising the integrity of
> the plate protecting the tank on the bottom.

This thought has crossed my mind too. (briefly :-)  I envisioned a fuel tank
cover made of aluminum with heat-sink fins running the length of it.  Then
you would need a really big smear of heat sink compound between it and the
tank.  (Yeah, right :-)

If there is not a good way to insulate the pipes, then I'm going to have a
stainless fuel tank made that has more room for possibly larger pipes and
enough insulation.

Another thing to consider is using an inline fuel radiator.  A nice spot for
one would be in the frame next to the fuel accumulator, but there isn't much
room for air flow through here.  There is plenty of room in the engine
compartment, but instead of stagnant cool air we have turbulent hot air.

On a more sarcastic note, it almost seems a shame that they go to the
trouble to plumb coolant from the engine to the heater core when they could
have instead substituted hot fuel.  All the heat you would ever need could
be taken from the fuel return line. :-)  I'm sure the yankees will disagree,
but come to Florida and we'll fry up some eggs on the sidewalk.

Walt




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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 23:10:43 -0500
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>
Subject: Re: Auto tranny cooler

proper flow would be to route the hot fluid from the trans, through the
stock oil/water exchanger, then into the supplemental cooler, and back to
the transmission. Not to use only the supplemental cooler alone. One of the
reasons the fluid was routed through the radiator mounted cooler was to
insure the transmissions quick warm-up, and to provide a stable minimum
temperature. The heat exchanger in the radiator is jut that, not a "cooler"
alone, but also a "warmer". Besides, the thermal transfer efficiency of the
oil/water exchanger is far better than any hooptie-hotrod oil/air 19.95
wal-mart special. It may be a good idea to use one of the supplemental
coolers equipped with it's own fan will avoid needing to block the already
too small radiator.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Brandys" <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 19:34
Subject: Re: [DML] Auto tranny cooler


> THERE IS A SMALL HEAT EXCHANGER FOR THE TRANS THAT GOES IN THE COOLANT
> HOSE TO THE FRONT RADIATOR.  I PREFER MOUNT A DEADICATED TRANSCOOLER TO
> THIS THE STOCK TUBE.
> BOB
>
> checksix3 wrote:
>
> >OK, I'm confused. I keep seeing references to the "stock"
> >automatic transsmission cooler but all I can find in the
> >parts manual is a reference to a "cooler hose". Does the car
> >have a cooler or not?
> >
> >>From reading the archives I see some owners have added one but
> >provide no details. Anyone wish to give me the story on doing this?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Gary
> >2874
> >
> >To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> >moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> >To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:20:36 -0000
From: "adam_one_million" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Transmission choices

I got an automatic, and like you I was indecisive about transmission 
type. The car I bought had shift problems from the beginning. I just 
replaced my shift comp and I have to tell you that it is an extremely 
simple repair job. I know next to nothing about cars, but I was able 
to replace mine in two hours, and it only took that long cause it was 
a new experience and I was being very careful. 

Service to the shift comp is usually very easy as well. The problems 
are often very obvious and simple to fix. The two large capacitors 
inside often die from transmission heat. Replace them with tantalum 
units, and use a higher voltage rating on them also. The caps I 
removed from mine were 10 volt caps 4.7 uF. I relaced them with 50 
volt 10 uF caps, and everything works fine. 

Also cold solder joints, and failed transistors are the next likely 
failures. In fact, the caps, transistors, and cold solder joints are 
the only things I have ever heard about failing. 

Adam 16683 now fully automatic


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "mccarthy410" <chrismc1_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> 
> I'm looking to buy a DeLorean,  I'm torn between the Automatic and 
> the 5-speed manual. I'm not that proficent with a manual due to 
lack 
> of practice. I've been told that the Automatics have some problems 
> due to computer issues.  If I do get an automatic, is their a fix 
for 
> the computer issues,  other than getting a manual?  If so, what is 
> it? If not,  sounds like I will have to get a manual to get around 
> it.  I'm in Virginia
> 
> Thanks




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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 08:44:29 -0500
From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Overheating Fuel Tank.

One other thing should be noted.

Even though the spring inside the suction hose prevents the hose from
collapsing when hot, the spring does cause turbulence in the fuel flow.
This turbulence contributes to the cavitation.  Pumps need a smooth
(laminar) flow to the suction port, with the least amount of resistance
possible.

"What a tangled web we weave."

Scott Mueller
002981
scott.a.mueller (at) att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: DMC Joe [mailto:dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 5:09 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Overheating Fuel Tank.


Scott brings up an interesting subject. He said "When the gasoline heats up,
it is more prone to vaporize in the pump suction and cause cavitation".

Robert report is the forth instance I've heard concerning cavitation noise
in cars
fitted with springs inside the pick-up hose.

DMC Joe

From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_att.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: [DML] Overheating Fuel Tank.


> Robert,
> When the gasoline heats up, it is more prone to vaporize in the pump
suction
> and cause cavitation.  Cavitation sounds like gravel going through your
> pump.  The three major sources of heat are the coolant piping along side
the
> tank, hot air from the radiators and heat form the engine via the fuel
> return line.
>
>
>
> Scott Mueller
> 002981
> scott.a.mueller (at) att.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: therealdmcvegas [mailto:DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 5:28 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DML] Overheating Fuel Tank.
>
>
> So far, my car has been ok thru the early summer heat. But
> Tuesday I had to make a trip across town forr my job. And I had
> the car parked outside the whole day. Long story short, my fuel
> pump became quite noisy. So much so to the point where I coulf
> feel the vibration from the fuel line thru the center console!
> Durring this time, I also noticed that my voltage took a severe
> drop _at_dml_ idle. With the A/C on, and the fan on speed 2, the needle
> was down to the 2nd mark  on the voltmeter! Usually I can only
> hit that mark with the fan on 4, rear defroster, and all clearance
> lamps & high beams on! So, my guess is not that the fuel hose
> is collapsing ( there is a spring installed), but that the excess
> heat in the tank is causing the internals of the pump to expand,
> and thus grind making the sound. The kicker though, was this.
> When I parked the car for 20 minutes, and got back in, the sound
> was worse! After driving about 4-5 miles, it did quiet back down a
> bit. But did not improve from where it was before. With the
> exception of after I parked the car, and until the fuel cooled a bit,
> the accelleration on my car was fine.
>
> Now, from all this, I have determined the following:
> 1. A noisy fuel pump isn't always due to a collapsing fuel pick-up
> hose.
> 2. Air flow from the front radiator is NOT heating the fuel. When I
> stopped the air flow, the noise became worse. It wasn't until I
> restored air flow that there was a sign of cooling.
>
> So, I've determined that the heat MUST be comming from the
> coolant pipes that run along the sides of the fuel cell (I do
> believe that Walt mentioned this one before). So, now  I have the
> following questions. I've seen ads that giving a ceramic coating
> to exhaut pipes helps to keep the heat inside of them, and
> reduces the heat in the engine compartment. Does this really
> work? If so, can I expect the same results for the two sections of
> pipe next to the tank? This is the only "safe" solution that comes
> to mind. I've no idea what kind of a reaction household insulation
> would have with high water temps and/or chemicals found in
> that region of the car.
>
> Venting the tank to air flow is another entire possibility, but I have
> concerns about aerodynamics and compromising the integrity of
> the plate protecting the tank on the bottom.
>
> Ideas?
>
> -Robert
> vin 6585 "X"




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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 07:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Auto tranny cooler

Way back in 83 I put a transmission oil cooler on my
automatic 81.  It was the typical "extra radiator" and
mounted in front of the existing radiator.

I never had any transmission problems in the 70K miles
driven after the cooler was installed.  HOWEVER, the
extra heat put out by it certainly contributed to the
"fuel tank" noise that became a constant irritant.  I
also had to be much more alert to overheating on very
hot days.  With today's triple core brass radiators
and the self-bleeding kits, that should no longer be a
problem. 

Today there are much more compact heat exchangers that
should work quite well.  If I were still driving an
automatic, I would certainly still have some sort of
transmission cooler.

Dick Ryan  

--- Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com> wrote:
> THERE IS A SMALL HEAT EXCHANGER FOR THE TRANS THAT
> GOES IN THE COOLANT 
> HOSE TO THE FRONT RADIATOR.  I PREFER MOUNT A
> DEADICATED TRANSCOOLER TO 
> THIS THE STOCK TUBE.
> BOB
> 
> checksix3 wrote:
> 
> >OK, I'm confused. I keep seeing references to the
> "stock"
> >automatic transsmission cooler but all I can find
> in the 
> >parts manual is a reference to a "cooler hose".
> Does the car 
> >have a cooler or not?
> >
> >>From reading the archives I see some owners have
> added one but 
> >provide no details. Anyone wish to give me the
> story on doing this?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Gary
> >2874
> >
> >To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> >moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> >To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 14:58:27 -0000
From: "shainbrannan" <shain_at_dml_elecmods.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Transmission choices

Hello,

What it really comes down to is preference.  I own a 5 speed, and 
personally thats all i really like to drive.  It gives me a since of 
control over the car that i do not get with an automatic, and usualy 
you get a little better gas mileage as well.  There are upgrades you 
can do to make the automatics just as reliable as the 5 speeds, so 
don't let that be a factor.  If it is just a pleasure car like it is 
for me, maybe you might want to buy a 5 speed and learn to drive 
it.  But, if your going to be into traffic alot, or constant stop 
and go traffic an automatic may be a better choice for you.  
Whatever the choice is, it is still a DeLorean.

- Shain
#10140
5 Speed




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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:25:09 EDT
From: iznodmad_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean Transmission choices

If you are looking to purchase a DeLorean, do yourself a favor and just buy 
the best possilble candidate.  Sure, any auto or manual transmission car will 
have problems if it has not been maintained properly over the years.  Time 
doesn't care if the car is auto or manual or anything else.  Condition is the 
key, not the type of transmission, or the color of the interior.  Look for a 
car with an owner that loves the car and has taken the time to make sure that 
everything on it works properly.  You could always contact the vendors and 
see what cars they have for sale.  They will be able to tell you exactly what 
to expect from a car that they may have on consignment, no guess work there!  
Good luck in your search.

Regards,
Darren Decker
#5000



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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:38:11 -0500
From: Farrar Hudkins <fhudkins_at_dml_uno.edu>
Subject: Re: DeLorean transmission choices

To Anon. in Virginia:

There's an easy way to fix the auto tranny computer. In fact, there are
a few ways. Once you do it, as they say, it's done. In fact, one of the
guys on this list manufactures and sells a 'plug and play' replacement,
IIRC. I'll leave it up to the guys on the list to explain the details,
or you may comb the DML archives if you wish. In the meantime, choose
what you like. The usual 'stick vs auto' argument applies, and I'm sure
a lot of people have very strong opinions about their transmissions, so
I will not make a statement about what I would choose. ;)

Best of luck.

Regards,
Farrar Hudkins
New Orleans, LA
'98 Ranger XLT "Laggy"
--
www.wwno.org
504-280-7000



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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:27:44 -0400
From: "Michael Babb" <michael_at_dml_babbtechnology.com>
Subject: Shift Pattern (was: More questions)

Close, here's the shift pattern . . .

                     1 3 5 
                     | | | 
                   -------
                   | | | 
                   R 2 4   

MICHAEL C. BABB

-----Original Message-----
 is the DeLorean shift pattern for the manual the same as any 
other car? (Example: 1 3 5 
                     | | |
                     -----
                     | | |
                     2 4 R)  







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________________________________________________________________________



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