From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1045
Date: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:52 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

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There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: rear drive axle question
From: jrc2905_at_dml_aol.com

2. Idle Speed Screws
From: "Willie Mack" <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>

3. Re: Horsepower
From: "Sean Howley" <delorsche_at_dml_att.net>

4. Re: Tires.. excitement and worries...
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

5. fast idle
From: Meyerleem_at_dml_cs.com

6. Re: Idle Speed Screws
From: "shainbrannan" <shain_at_dml_elecmods.com>

7. Re: Idle Speed Screws
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>

8. Re: Idle Speed Screws
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

9. idle speed again
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

10. Re: rear drive axle question
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

11. Re: dimmer rheostatic wiring
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

12. Re: Type of fuel to use
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>

13. Re: rear drive axle question
From: "dmcman82" <dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com>

14. corpus christi TX DMC owners?
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

15. Re: Help.....Car Won't Start
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

16. Re: Horsepower
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

17. Re: Re: Tires.. excitement and worries...
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

18. New bits
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury_at_dml_btinternet.com>

19. Windshield/vent water drain
From: "Montgomery, Ken" <kenm_at_dml_csus.edu>

20. Re: Horsepower
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

21. Re: fast idle
From: Delorean17_at_dml_aol.com





Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 18:20:11 EDT
From: jrc2905_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: rear drive axle question

My bearings are not sealed, I took them apart and cleaned every ball bearing 
and regreased them Opps, now I need new bearings, that is what the sound is, 
a growling that gets better on connors.So who do u get bearings from a DMC 
parts person or is it a common bearing.
John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 21:59:05 -0400
From: "Willie Mack" <wmack_at_dml_vt.edu>
Subject: Idle Speed Screws



I can adjust the idle adjustment screws so get the idle down to about 750
rpm, but it only lasts about 1 trip and then it goes back to 1500-2000 rpm.
what could be the reasoning behind this?

Thanks
  Willie
  Vin 5043




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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 22:35:29 -0400
From: "Sean Howley" <delorsche_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Horsepower

Not trying to nit pic, but (for information only) using the unit "bhp" is
inappropriate for this situation.  Bhp stands for Brake Horse Power and in
using this term, it is applied to what the engine output is.  This is the
power that would be available if the engine is removed from the car and dyno
tested at the flywheel.  Many times the use of "hp" is applied to what a car
has available (like in ads for new cars) which can be easily confused as the
power available at the tires when more likely it is the power output of the
engine only and should be labeled as bhp.  Another term for the output at
the wheels is "chassis hp".  Similarly, if you need to test the hp of the
car as the wheels, you would use a "Chassis Dyno" and if you were testing
the hp at the flywheel, you would use a "Brake Dyno."  Within each of these
two methods, there are a multitude of ways that the dyno is operated, but
that is something for another discussion.

In the case of the DeLorean, the engine is rated for 130 bhp and only has
about 100 chassis hp available.  Again, for information only, in quite a few
other cases that I have seen (on TV, in magazines, etc.), the power
available at the wheels is roughly 30 less than what the engine bhp is
capable of - at least for manual transmissions.

I am sorry if it appears that I am trying to stir up some trouble as this is
not the case.  I just thought that I might throw some "useless" info. to the
list.

Sean Howley
VIN#2345

> The stock Deloreans put out about 100 bhp at the wheels.  The automatic
> car was a little less.




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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 03:35:27 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Tires.. excitement and worries...

To dynamically balance a tire requires puting the wheel balancing 
weights in the proper position on both the inside and outside of the 
wheel. If a small weight is on the outside it is permissable to switch 
it to the inside but there might be a noticable vibration under some 
conditions. It is best to leave them where they have to go. If it 
really bothers you dab some silver paint on it. The weights compensate 
for any symetrical deviations from ideal dynamic balance so when the 
tire is rotating at high speed it doesn't "bounce". Some brands seem 
to require more balancing then others.
 On the subject of torque on the wheel lugs it is best not to 
overtighten for 3 reasons. The first is the posibility of distorting 
the rim and or rotor especially if not done in the correct order. The 
next reason is the possibility of breakage and the third reason is the 
 lug wrench with the jack may not be able to remove the lugs if you 
get a flat. The best advice would be to raise the car and remove the 
lugs then retighten in an alternating order to 1/2 the recommended 
torque and then the final torque. Tread wear on the outside of the 
front tires is normal and is due to cornering at speed. As you turn 
the car the tire "tucks under" or rolls so that you are riding on the 
outside edge, the harder you turn and the faster the more you will 
wear the tire's edge. The "cure" is to rotate the tires front to back 
to even the wear. (Don't try this on a Delorean!!!) Although the 
camber is set to try to compensate for this in turns, it is a 
compromise and cannot eliminate this wear. Cars that have lowered ride 
height will probably tend to wear the outside front tires faster.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "adam_one_million" <acprice1_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> [ Moderators note: Shops experianced with performance wheels and 
tires use stick on weights and the balancing can be done by sticking 
the weights to the back side of the wheel. Most likely the shop that 
installed the Yokohamas did that. Don't remove the weights that you 
have now.]
> 
> I finally got my new tires today. I got pirelli 6000s for front and 
> 600s for rear. My previous tires were yokohama AVS, and they had no 
> counter balance weights attached to the wheels. When the techs at 
Les 
> Schwab installed my Pirellis they did the spin balance and attached 
> one of these weights to each wheel.
> 
> I feel that these weights detract from the overall cool appearance 
of 
> the car.. Can they be removed without causing too much ride 
> abnormalities? Can they be mounted on the other side of the tire 
> 




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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 07:25:20 EDT
From: Meyerleem_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: fast idle

Thank you to those who responded to my earlier post. I checked for air leaks 
and everything seems to be ok. The car still starts easily but idles at about 
3000 rpm. The throttle linkage seems to work fine and returns properly. The 
switch seems to work. I started the car and tried to kick down the idle by 
tapping the gas 
pedal, this only resulted in the idle speed increasing to almost 4000 rpm. 
I'm guessing that the throttle valves may be sticking or the throttle plates 
are hanging up.How do I check this or is there something else I should 
check? I'd really like to fine away to get it running by next weekend as 
there is a local show I would like to attend. (it isn't a Delorean show)

                                                    Thanks
                                                        Lee Meyer #1699



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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:54:06 -0000
From: "shainbrannan" <shain_at_dml_elecmods.com>
Subject: Re: Idle Speed Screws

Willie,

The 3 screws that you are talking about should be snuggly tightened 
down.  They are not used for idle control because we have an idle 
speed motor.  What is probably happening is that the  throttle arm 
that hooks up to the butterfly is not returning fully down to the 
idle position and not tripping the idle speed switch.  Once it goes 
to 2000 rpm open the engine cover and push the arm back down and see 
if that happens.

- Shain
#10140
--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Willie Mack" <wmack_at_dml_v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I can adjust the idle adjustment screws so get the idle down to 
about 750
> rpm, but it only lasts about 1 trip and then it goes back to 1500-
2000 rpm.
> what could be the reasoning behind this?
> 
> Thanks
>   Willie
>   Vin 5043




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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 05:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>
Subject: Re: Idle Speed Screws

See the current topic of "Idle speed switch" I also have the problem of
the spool/arm not returning fully to the correct position when the car's
been driven for a while (or 5 minutes in my case). Tomorrow I'll try
another adjustment and hopefully it'll be fixed.

It almost seems that the real solution is to not have the one screw just
barely touch the idle speed switch, as any slight difference will cause
the switch to not trip (when held up any amount). Would you all say that
I'm correct in this assumption?

-Christian

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Willie Mack wrote:

>
>
> I can adjust the idle adjustment screws so get the idle down to about 750
> rpm, but it only lasts about 1 trip and then it goes back to 1500-2000 rpm.
> what could be the reasoning behind this?
>
> Thanks
>   Willie
>   Vin 5043
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:06:54 EDT
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Idle Speed Screws

In a message dated 5/26/02 6:04:47 AM Central Daylight Time, wmack_at_dml_vt.edu 
writes:


> I can adjust the idle adjustment screws so get the idle down to about 750
> rpm, but it only lasts about 1 trip and then it goes back to 1500-2000 rpm.
> what could be the reasoning behind this?
> 
> Thanks
>   Willie
>   Vin 5043

Willie,

first we must know if you are adjusting the three brass screws on the top of 
the air meter assembly (these should be left alone - adjust them so that they 
are lightly seated closed - don't use a wrench, hand tight is ok) or if you 
are adjusting the two steel screws on the throttle arm.  your throttle may be 
out of adjustment. or maybe something is loosening up on you as you drive.  
make sure everything along the throttle is tight and moves freely.

Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 14:26:26 EDT
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: idle speed again

Hello all,

if you can remember, a couple days ago i posted about my idle switch not 
kicking down every time i let my foot off of the gas.  i worked on the 
problem today and here is what i have found:

i adjusted the spring on the throttle one more notch.  it's pretty tight now 
(i think mine was already adjusted forward).  i also adjusted the throttle 
linkage.  right now it is all set up so that if i have the pedal to the 
floor, the throttle hits the full throttle switch, and when i let the pedal 
all the way back down, it is pushing on the idle speed switch w/o any 
additional play on the switch.  when i have a screwdriver pushed down on the 
idle speed switch, my idle screw is adjusted so that i am running at about 
800 rpm or so.  STILL, when i put my foot on the gas and let the pedal back 
down, the idle doesn't kick down!!!  it sits at about 1200 RPM.  however if 
the car is at say a stop sign, i can hit the gas with my foot on the clutch 
and let it drop down fast, and THEN it will kick down.  i can't find any 
mechanical reason why is should be like this.  i would think the switch 
doesn't care if it is tripped hard or softly - it is still being tripped.

my questions:

1.  how far into the idle speed switch is too much?  should the screw be 
pushing on the switch all of the way, medium, or just enough to take the tab 
off the switch?

2.  basically every adjustment you make throws something else off.  how do i 
set up the linkage so that when the pedal is fully depressed i know that the 
throttle butterflies are wide open?  theoretically my car could be adjusted 
so all the switches hit correctly however my butterflies are not adjusted 
correctly.  i don't know how you could measure this w/o removing the intake 
W-pipe.  is there another way? perhaps something with a perfect throttle 
could measure how long their linkage is in millimeters and could turn mine so 
that it matches, and then set up my screws to go along with that?  this is 
complicated!

3.  the shop manual says that the idle ECU recieves a ground when the 
butterflies are fully closed.  if my butterflies are off, perhaps my ECU 
isn't recieving a ground all of the time unless i let the gas off quickly, 
maybe hitting the butterflies hard and making it all work? just a theory.  
how do i test it?

4.  how do i know if my idle speed motor is working?  under which conditions 
should which things happen.  i'm not proficient with a DVOM so if anyone has 
any ideas, they will have to tell me how to hook everything up.

is there something else i'm missing?  i'm inclined to believe my butterflies 
are part of the problem.  i really need someone to guide me through complete 
adjustment of the throttle system.

if anyone out there has any better ideas on the problem, please let me know!

Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 13:22:24 EDT
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: rear drive axle question

In a message dated 5/25/02 9:02:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jrc2905_at_dml_aol.com 
writes:

<< 3. what car is the brake master cylinder from. I need one small part 
 and do not want to by the whole master cylinder right now.
 Any help is appreciated, I just want to drive. >>

Saab 900



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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 13:32:44 EDT
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: dimmer rheostatic wiring

In a message dated 5/25/02 5:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
delorean_at_dml_digital-devices.net writes:

<< anybody able to help me ..
  
 what is the order that the 3 wires connect to the 4 prongs on the
 rheostatic dimmer above the shifter?
  
 --------------
 |    |   |    |
  
 which 3 are used? >>


From left to right viewing facing the connector with knob facing upwards,
First spade connector gets wire marked "1"
Second gets skipped.
Third gets wire with Grey band marked  #2
Fourth gets unbanded #2.
I believe both terminals 3 and 4 are essentially the same (ie. electrically 
the same and connected together).
Jim 6147



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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:11:30 -0500
From: "A.H. MacIntosh & Co." <dmc12_at_dml_mlecmn.net>
Subject: Re: Type of fuel to use

European octane is measured using a single system (motor octane, if I recall
right, but not sure) In the USA we use an averaged system... remember the
little sticker on the pump that says "R+M/2" In this system, both "motor"
octane rating, and "Research" octane are added together, and divided to
result in an average rating.

Octane rating says nothing about a fuel's purity, or quality, only it's
resistance to detonation. When an engine knocks, what is happening is that
the fuel is igniting from the heat of compression, and interior engine
temperature. (like a diesel... sort of...) Preigintion knocking can, and
will, eventually hammer even the best forged racing pistons to dust in the
end. It destroys the crystalline grain of the metal. The shocks also pound
the daylights out of the journals, pins, and connecting rods...

Diesel engines use extremely heavy reciprocating parts, and higher presure
oiling systems to prevent this damage... a gasoline engine doesn't

The "research" rating reflects the fuels performance at low, and moderate
engine loads, and speeds. On the other hand, the "motor" number reflects the
fuel's resistance to detonation under high engine speeds.  It is possible to
have a fuel "knock"  at a low speed, but still work well at high engine
speeds.

In any case, with the PRV's (in stock trim) rather anemic compression ratio,
I can't foresee needing any high octane rated fuel. Modern unleaded
"regular" works fine at 9:1... but if it makes you feel better to pay a few
$ more for premium... well.


> > Hi,
> >
> > I am a new prospective owner of a DeLorean, before I buy, I'm
> > gathering all info I can.  One question comes to mind,  I know the
> > manual and several sites say to use 91 Octane fuel,  only thing close
> > to it is 93, and that does get expensive.   Can  87 or 89 Octane be
> > used with no ill effects? I'm told how the Europeans and how the U.S.
> > rates gasoline are two different things,  any truth to this?
> >
> > Thanks.



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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:49:25 -0000
From: "dmcman82" <dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: rear drive axle question

There is a seal on the bearings, it's what keeps the bearings in and 
dirt/water out. It's usually black or red. You can get them from any 
Delorean Parts vendor or autoparts store, they will be the same 
price (just get them from a DMC vendor). Be prepared to shell out 
some $$$ for them.

Steve

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., jrc2905_at_dml_a... wrote:
> My bearings are not sealed, I took them apart and cleaned every 
ball bearing 
> and regreased them Opps, now I need new bearings, that is what the 
sound is, 
> a growling that gets better on connors.So who do u get bearings 
from a DMC 
> parts person or is it a common bearing.
> John
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:10:46 EDT
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: corpus christi TX DMC owners?

Hey guys,

i will be in corpus christi TX from this thursday until sunday evening.  it 
would be great to meet up with other D owners in the area for an evening of 
hanging out or whatever.  i will not have my own transportation there so 
someone would have to pick me up.  if anyone is interested in some chit-chat 
and showing off cars or knowledge, privately email me.  i will have internet 
access there.

Later,
Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 22:58:09 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Help.....Car Won't Start

Hi Bob

You need to look at voltages on the ignition and starter relays. Check both are being
switched, and both have supplies to actually switch. My money's on the immobiliser
cutting the supply to one (or both) of them.

The reason I said you should check the recall on the starter relay is that it involved
someone moving contacts in the relay socket, making up a new lead, and plugging it into a
permanent supply. This lead may be suspect - but it'll take you 30 seconds to check.
Because this is a recall it's NOT on the wiring diagram.

You'd know if the solenoid was engaging, but not turning the engine - my car (which had
not had the starter upgrade) did this when the battery was a bit low.

I mentioned Paul Salsbury's system in my last post. He has now removed it by tracing all
the supplies that weren't 12v when they should be. Please feel free to mail me if you
want a hand

Martin
#1458

rdthomason28209 wrote:

> No rapid clicks. I may be getting a single click; it's hard to tell.
> However the engine does not budge at all. I'm using pretty robust
> jumper cables and have tried two different cars to jump it off of. I
> still think it has something to do with the Alarm system since it
> won't turn on now. I'm going to check the battery in the
> Alarm 'clicker' but I replaced it not too long ago so I don't think
> that's it. There must be some way to bypass the Alarm System or at
> least reset it.
>
> Bob




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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:03:23 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Horsepower

Found this through Google:

http://vintagecars.about.com/library/weekly/aa041198.htm

SO, if my 30 second scan of this article is correct, the DeLorean's 130 SAE HP is a more
"fair, at the wheels" figure, and the BHP figure for the engine may be considerably
higher.... or maybe the term BHP is just misused these days to mean SAE HP.

Martin
#1458




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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:16:19 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: Tires.. excitement and worries...

I have pirellis on my everyday car and they vibrate so little I've never bothered getting
them balanced. My 2p is that the D's wheels account for more of the vibration modern
tyres.

Martin
#1458

jtrealtywebspannet wrote:

> To dynamically balance a tire requires puting the wheel balancing
> weights in the proper position on both the inside and outside of the
> wheel. If a small weight is on the outside it is permissable to switch
> it to the inside but there might be a noticable vibration under some
> conditions. It is best to leave them where they have to go. If it
> really bothers you dab some silver paint on it. The weights compensate
> for any symetrical deviations from ideal dynamic balance so when the
> tire is rotating at high speed it doesn't "bounce". Some brands seem
> to require more balancing then others.




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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:27:18 +0100
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury_at_dml_btinternet.com>
Subject: New bits

Just to let you know I've updated my site with pictures of my wheels that
have been refurbished, lowered springs and a off the shelf set of wheel
nuts, If you like let me know and I will get you a set. ( the one that looks
odd is a locking nut). Contact me for more details.

Cheers
Paul
#6463

www.paul.salsbury.btinternet.co.uk






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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:52:37 -0700
From: "Montgomery, Ken" <kenm_at_dml_csus.edu>
Subject: Windshield/vent water drain

   Last week I attended a car show. A storm came in and it turned into a
downpour. This was actually the first time I've had my car out in a full
rainstorm. By the time I got home I had 2 inches of water in the passenger
footwell. I took everything apart, dried the water and started digging to
see why this happened. I discovered the last shop who worked on the fuel
system stuffed a chunk of foam in the drain above the fuel pump!

My question is, what's the best way to divert the drain water so it doesn't
pour right down onto the fuel pump? From there the water runs back and pools
inside the frame. When I put the front of the car on the ramps, water ran
out of the lower cover plate on the bottom of the frame.

Ken



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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 18:52:36 EDT
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Horsepower

In a message dated 5/26/02 5:29:50 PM Central Daylight Time, 
webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk writes:


> Found this through Google:
> 
> http://vintagecars.about.com/library/weekly/aa041198.htm
> 
> SO, if my 30 second scan of this article is correct, the DeLorean's 130 SAE 
> HP is a more
> "fair, at the wheels" figure, and the BHP figure for the engine may be 
> considerably
> higher.... or maybe the term BHP is just misused these days to mean SAE HP.
> 
> Martin
> #1458

Martin, 

i read this article and would agree with what you said.  but how come if you 
dyno a stock DeLorean you only get about 100 hp at the wheels?  by this 
article we should be measuring 130 hp at the wheels if it really is SAE NET.  
i have never used a dyno nor even seen one but this is what i heard from 
owners who have tested theirs.  pretty confusing, huh?

Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:36:40 EDT
From: Delorean17_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: fast idle

I had this same problem the last time I had my intake off. It would idle at 
about 3500 RPM's with the throttle plates fully closed. It turned out to be 
the front W shaped pipe in the engine compartment, it was not totally sealed 
to the intake.  Even though it had gaskets they were old and cracked.  I 
replaced them and it started right up and idled at 800 RPMS.  I doubt your 
butterflies are sticking.  Just pop off the front air horn (W shaped pipe) 
and watch them.

good luck

David



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