From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1092
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:43 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

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There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. PROJECT DELOREAN : NEW HOME, NEW SITE
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

2. DeLorean sighting
From: Jack The Stripper <motti_at_dml_optonline.net>

3. Re: Re: Brake Master Cylinder Rebuild Kits?
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

4. List behaviour
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

5. Re: Halon-Blah Blah Blah
From: Todd Masinelli <tmasin_at_dml_madisontelco.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:54:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: PROJECT DELOREAN : NEW HOME, NEW SITE

Hi Group, First I'd like to thank everyone who's
posted pics from the Memphis show.  Project Delorean
was far from ready and my schedule just didn't permit
me to go, but it's been great seeing the shots of all
the cars.  Thanks again!

I'd also like to announce that Project Delorean has a
new look and a new home.  I was sick of the
ever-increasing pop-up ads on Angelfire so I finally
purchased a domain.  Initially I was just going to
migrate the existing site over to the new host, but I
was tired of the look so I decided to rebuild the site
as I migrated.  It took longer, but I think you'll all
agree the new site is better. The new site is at:
www.projectdelorean.com

Finally, as a quick update, I've been fabricating the
new exhaust system lately.  It's a 2" / 2 1/2" system
which follows the original path, retains and relocates
the cat and exits with a single pipe in the center.
(Similar to one of the early Delorean prototypes)
Check it out at: www.projectdelorean.com

Thanks, Steve

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:37:22 -0700
From: Jack The Stripper <motti_at_dml_optonline.net>
Subject: DeLorean sighting

I saw a DeLorean today around 4, or 4:30 pm parked at the Huntington 
Post office on Jericho Tpk. in Huntington Long Island, NY.
Did this belong to anyone on the list?

--Joe




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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:35:45 EDT
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: Re: Brake Master Cylinder Rebuild Kits?

*****  Moderator's Note  *****
The moderators try to keep the discussions on the list civil.  We have
learned over the years that what one member sees as a resonable response
is seen as an attack by someone else.  Certain attempts at humor can
(and are) misinterpreted as well.  Questions about a proposed solution
to a particular problem are legitimate content for the list.  Most of
the time, the goal of the questions are to improve the understanding
of the solution, and in every instance, there are alternatives 
available from the various vendors.  We as moderators screen out the
obvious attacks, but if a post can be interpreted in a couple of 
different ways, we may ask for clarification before sending it through.
Sometimes, the proposed solutions can cause unintended problems - a good example are "drop in" replacements for R-12 that contain volatile gasses.
Questioning these solutions is definately in the interest of the typical
owner.  It is up to each individual to determine for themselves what 
solution is best for their situation. The moderating team will not make those decisions for the list membership.

Vendors are an important part of the DeLorean community.  They support 
the cars through their products, they support events like Ken's 
recent shindig in Memphis.  They also provide a lot of support here.
Imagine what the list would be like without DMCJoe, John Hervey, 
Darryl Tinnerstet, and others who provide advice and council regarding
repairs and modifications to our cars.

Your moderating team tries to keep the outright advertising to a 
minimum.  For the most part, the vendors cooperate, but they do need
reminders from time to time to tone things down.  References to web 
pages are ok, and direct responses to questions regarding availability
of a particular part are allowed.  Flyers, price lists, discounts,
are not.  We also try to screen out spam that hits other sites.  Things
like "I just found out about the great new product and thought you
should know...."  from someone who just became a member or who has never
participated in the list before usually won't make it through on the 
first try without some additional explanation.  

Mike G   Moderator of the Week

> In fact, I greatly hesitate to pose this question in the Delorean 
> debating list, since I'm certain the majority response will be 
> attack, but it's the only place I know to ask.

In a message dated 6/25/02 8:09:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com writes:

<< Please note the statement that this person makes regarding a 
 hesitation (perhaps dread) at asking this list for advice and counsel 
 on this relatively straightforward question.  When we foster this kind 
 of "fear to participate" from people who could make a significant 
 contribution to the DeLorean marque (given the chance), then we cannot 
 expect to see growth and development in the List, or in the car.  >>

Here goes...fire storm time....:-)
Toby makes a good point. I suspect that a good deal of the dread of a hostile 
reply stems directly from the participation of some list members who have a 
vested interest in profiting from the non-vending membership. In short, if 
you're making money on something, you want everyone to buy your stuff. Vendor 
loyalty is fine. But attacking others who wish to find another way, or an 
alternate source, is counter productive for all of us. Moderators....this is 
your turf. Don't we need to foster an environment of trust and diversity? Why 
do you allow vendors to influence the tenor of the list? Perhaps a 
distinction needs to be made . If you sell something, and it's not open 
source, or you make a profit from the mebership, then you are a vendor and 
your motives conflict with those of the membership and the list. What are the 
rules concerning vendor participation and/or advertising? Sorry to stir the 
pot.
Jim 6147



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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:33:26 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: List behaviour

*****  Moderator's Note  *****
Metadiscussion is generally prohibited from the list, however we are 
getting a number of questions about the policies regarding posts to 
the list.  You can expect to see a copy of the list rules in your 
inbox on a periodic basis.  

Mike G   Moderator of the Week

Hi all

Toby's comment on list ettiquette has got me thinking. He's absolutely
right in what he says. I've seen so many innocent questions or
discussions turn into increasingly severe disputes. The "Vendors and
other scammers" being a recent case in point. Toby's own efforts with
his TABs a while ago seemed to cause a witch-hunt at the time which left
me feeling amazed he didn't drop the DML there and then. Here's my 2p on
the subject (or 3cents at today's exchange rate :-)

Personally I rarely get "moderated out". In fact the last time I recall
having a message stopped _was_ deserved and carried a disclaimer that I
expected it to be (did you know there's a "Mr Fusion" on the wall of the
Nostromo in the opening scene in "Alien"? - ha! got it in this time
:-P). In that case I got a polite reply that my message was being
declined. Fair enough. (I've also had the same experience as Walter of
replying to a message after imbibing a jar or three and reading my post
the following day and wondering who got at my PC to type that
drivel....)

One of the high points of Memphis for me was meeting all the people I
"know" off the DML. An equal pleasure was meeting all the people I
DIDN'T know off the DML. I lost count of the number of "lurkers" who
knew me by following my posts. This was very gratifying, but in EVERY
case, I was wondering why this person didn't post also, because they
obviously had a lot to say and would have a great contribution to make.
Basically it was for fear of the stern replies that too often fly
around.

I like to think of the DML as a room full of like minded people all
chatting about DeLoreans. Of course there are differences of opinion -
but it's all too easy to forget that through text alone, it's impossible
to convey the "feeling" that speech and body language adds to a
face-to-face conversation.

Memphis was an eye-opener for meeting people I'd always "labelled" as
being of a certain personality. Boy was I wrong! I'm sure John Hervey
won't mind me putting his name on that list! Throughout the show I was
getting needled by grinning comments about our recent exchange with
regards his Fan Fix. Thanks to Bill Lane, we made our peace on the first
morning, had lunch, and for my part, gained a completely different level
of respect :-)

I think that posting to the DML is very rewarding IF you say only what
you'd say face-to-face. And on a personal note, sometimes I think a lot
of these misunderstandings are caused simply by people not thoroughly
reading the posts to which they are replying, and in a lot of cases, not
re-reading what they just wrote _before_ posting it.

That's just my opinion.

All the Best

Martin
#1458 - Just got my seats back from Belfast - Mmmmmmmm :-)




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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:22:25 -0500
From: Todd Masinelli <tmasin_at_dml_madisontelco.com>
Subject: Re: Halon-Blah Blah Blah

*****  Moderator's Note  *****
A key concept to keep in mind, this list is not a free speech
platform.  If it was, it wouldn't be moderated  :-)

The primary content guideline for the list is that each 
post should contain information about DeLorean - the car,
the company, or the man.  Posts that don't meet this criteria
don't make it through, particularly ones that are starting 
a new thread.  There are additional rules (that should be 
hitting your e-mail readers soon) that determine the posts
that will make it through.  

Todd makes a good point.  It is easy to dash off a post in the
heat of the moment that contains notions that you would never
say to someone face to face.  Before hitting that send button, 
take a moment to reread what you have written to see if it
meets that condition.  It would sure make my job easier...

Mike G  Moderator of the Week



> I like freedom of speech -- which also implies freedom
> to give bad advice or ask stupid questions.

I certainly understand where you're coming from on this, Walt.  Other list
members have mentioned that they have been "censored" only on the merits of
their ideas and not because their posts were inflammatory, offensive,
off-topic, etc.  I have no first-hand experience, so I have no idea who's
right.

In defense of the moderators, though, I think it's worth mentioning that all
posts that make it to the list are both public and permanent.  If someone
posts incorrect information, it becomes part of the public archive and can
be found later by someone searching for factual information.  This isn't
just hypothetical -- think of the times it has happened before with part
numbers, like the Bosch number for the relays.  The only thing to do is post
a follow-up message correcting the bad info and hope anyone who reads one
also reads the other.  It's not as big of a deal for those of us in the
present who follow the discussions in real time, but it's not the ideal
method for getting good data to future D owners searching through the
archives one, two, or ten years from now.

> people have had their feelings hurt for giving their
> opinions and advice on the DML before and don't
> want to be torn up anymore

I can understand that, too...some threads over the past few months have
gotten pretty nasty.  Is the solution to have the moderators block more of
the personal attacks?  Or are they over-moderating as it is?  Maybe the best
idea would be for folks to post as if they were speaking to the entire list
in person.  E-mail tends to give some people the same anonymous bravado that
cars give to those with road rage.  If the members of this list showed each
other the same level of courtesy we showed each other in person in Memphis,
I think the DML would be a much more inviting place to hang out.

And if you post something that another list member decides to publicly shred
you to pieces over, take comfort in the fact that he's making an ass out of
himself in front of nearly 1,200 people.  :-)

_________________
Todd Masinelli
VIN 6681 (Nov 81)




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