From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1119
Date: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:22 PM

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

2. Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...
From: dqauto_at_dml_aol.com

3. Re: Open Invitational Door Strut Test
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

4. Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...
From: "William F. Lane" <blane_at_dml_triad.rr.com>

5. Re: Door strut debacle
From: "twinenginedmc12" <twinenginedmc12_at_dml_gendreaumicro.com>

6. D in Star Wars
From: "tmasterlc" <tmasterlc_at_dml_msn.com>

7. Re: Open Invitational Door Strut Test
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

8. Re: Fuel pickup line
From: "johnsdmc12" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>

9. Re: RPM-relay relay
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

10. Re: Re: Coolant
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

11. torsion bar adjustment tools
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

12. RE: HELP!! Need an evaporator!!!
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

13. Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>

14. Stereo suggestions
From: "dmc83_gullwing" <jasperkins_at_dml_hotmail.com>

15. Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...
From: "basfe25" <dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com>

16. Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

17. Re: locked up door
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

18. Re: Door strut debacle
From: "Rustproof" <Rustproof_at_dml_prodigy.net>

19. Zilla Web Site Now Open
From: ZillaDelorean_at_dml_aol.com

20. Back to the Future Delorean
From: "sukia_99" <annesley_at_dml_primus.com.au>

21. RE: Stereo suggestions
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

22. Re: Stereo suggestions
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>

23. Re: D in Star Wars
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com

24. Re: D in Star Wars
From: Trevor Johnson <comet4055_at_dml_juno.com>

25. Re: D in Star Wars
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:07:04 EDT
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...

Sean, It's called starter draging. The starter and solenoid is most likley 
wore out and when they get this way it will almost drain the battery when 
trying to start.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/starters.shtml

<< Having quite the problem with my D lately.  It's a
 huge non-start problem.  She only starts when she's
 jumped.  The battery isn't dead, in fact it's brand
 new.  Then the problem is, there's very little juice
 when she's started, so the fuel pump kicks in and out.
  Is this a ground problem or what?  Where do I start
 searching?!  Please help!
 
 -Sean Mulligan
  vin #10054
  >>



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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:11:13 EDT
From: dqauto_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...

Hi,

I have seen this problem in the D's cousin (impulse turbo).  Mine was a 
ground problem.
Negative and positive cables were replaced... I also checked all places that 
it grounded to body.,

Are you getting any power at all with your own battey? Just not start?
Anna Noe
Isuzuweb 6610

Dreaming of the future D someday.
:)

Don't just dream the dream, live the dream, and drive Stainless! 
DeLorean DMC-12...



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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:34:32 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Open Invitational Door Strut Test

> Non-vendors, email me if you want me to run this test.

</sarcasm on> Do I want you to do a Consumer Reports style test of various
door struts at no expense to me and publish the results?  Uh, let me think
about this a while.</sarcasm off>  Yes!

I have disassembled a door strut that came off a friend's car.  I don't know
what brand it was or which vendor it came from.  The tube had been
amateurishly spray painted black, so I scraped it off to see if they were
hiding anything.  Apparently they were.  Whoever did it also sanded off the
numbers to keep their source anonymous.

This strut was substantially similar in construction to smaller struts that
I have disassembled from various junk cars.  All struts contain oil to a
height of around 2 to 4 cm measured from one end.  One strut used automatic
transmission fluid.  I could recognize it by the smell & color.  Most struts
use a light (say 20W) oil.  It is obvious that all struts should be operated
in the "shaft-down" position to keep the seals from leaking the nitrogen
charge.

Why I'm up on this is because I'm thinking about (in maybe 80 years from now
at the rate I get things done) making some custom struts that would be
rechargeable, dampening & temperature compensated.  The dampening is
simple -- just put a spring in the end.  Temperature compensation is another
issue.  I'm thinking maybe a needle valve or shutter hooked to a bi-metallic
strip.  The size of the orifice is very small to begin with, and it would be
difficult to make any temperature compensation reliable.  Maybe someone can
come up with a gas mixture that gets thinner with cold temperatures?  Fat
chance.

Why I was asking about strut pressures earlier is because I was (note past
tense) thinking about TIG welding a Schrader valve to one end where I could
replace the oil and charge it.  But 1400 PSI?  Uh, if they are really
charged that much, I'm surprised they don't explode.  I've seen Scuba tanks
that have exploded.  They are typically filled to around 2500 to 3000 PSI
and are made of tempered metal.   In proportion, the struts are made of
sheet metal that apparently is not tempered.  It seems dangerous.  Does
anyone know what kind of valve would be appropriate to use?  I don't think
any Schrader can take that much pressure.

I'm curious to learn anything you find out.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:20:54 -0700
From: "William F. Lane" <blane_at_dml_triad.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...

Sean,

Try running a jumper cable from the negative post of the battery to the 
bolt holding the seatbelt to the frame which is beside the seat.  If 
your car starts this way your ground is bad.  it is easiest to use the 
negative (black) cable of your jumber cables for this test.  The red 
cable will not be used! In effect, you are creating another ground and 
bypassing the ground cable from the battery to the trailing arm mounting 
bolt flange.

Bill Lane
#3635

ps This works doesn't it Noah!




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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 02:32:39 -0000
From: "twinenginedmc12" <twinenginedmc12_at_dml_gendreaumicro.com>
Subject: Re: Door strut debacle

I'm replying to this post to nip in the bud a misinterpretation that 
seems to be beginning to propagate.

My original post about the incorrect door struts, 26812, refers to 
the cylinder body being about 5mm longer than original equipment, not 
the full extended length of the strut, as Mr. Espey has 
misinterpreted.  The essence of the problem with the Delorean Motor 
Company struts is that the stroke (the amount the strut can be 
compressed before bottoming out)of the Delorean Motor Company strut 
is 13mm shorter (much worse than my initial estimate of about 5mm) 
than the original equipment strut.

To explain, when your door is closed, the strut has to be compressed 
a certain amount.  On my car, that distance is 129mm.  Any strut that 
can compress further than that will not jam in the car, and be fine, 
when the door is closed.  Any strut that can't compress that far, 
will jam when the door is almost closed, and exert a great deal of 
force (about a ton) on the mounting posts.  

The Delorean Motor Company strut can only compress 127mm.  Its stroke 
is 2mm too short.  2mm is not a large distance, in human terms.  
There are probably many people who have had this problem and are 
unaware of it, or consider it trivial.  

Rick Gendreau




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., James Espey <james_at_dml_u...> wrote:

snip 
> A 5mm increase in the length of the strut translates into a couple 
inches or
> so with the door fully open, resulting in significantly more room 
for
> ingress/egress from the DeLorean - something no one will complain 
about. For
> the very small number of cars that this affects, shorter ends are 
available
> for the struts.

snip






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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 02:33:10 -0000
From: "tmasterlc" <tmasterlc_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: D in Star Wars

List

For those of you interested, here is a link of the D in the current 
Star Wars episode.  Thought you might enjoy this cameo appearance.

http://www.aldera.net/Art-GV.html?file=08-800x600.jpg&&

Ron

#1529  Screaming Yellow Zonker




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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:32:22 EDT
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Open Invitational Door Strut Test

Rick, I will be glad to work with you. But let me tell you this. When a strut 
gets a few years old like 5 or so, the pressure gets less. NOS stock isn't 
any good. The door struts are 1200 Newtons + or - out of the box, if I'm not 
mistaken and will as you know increase pressure and decreases as the 
temperature changes. Most are date coded as I get them and well within specs. 
I also recently tested a 5 year old against a new one and just guessing I 
would say there was 20 to 30% difference.
John Hervey
 http://www.specialtauto.com/hardware.shtml

<< I recently had trouble with a mechanically incompatible door strut 
 that I purchased from a well known, and otherwise respected vendor.  
 I've since ordered replacement struts from a different vendor, and 
 will be comparing them in terms of geometry and function.
  >>



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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 04:57:23 -0000
From: "johnsdmc12" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pickup line

Steve, Sorry to be so long in getting back to the group on the new 
fuel pick up line and baffle. I have an extra new fuel tank that I 
have been working with, and yes your thought was valid. So, I got the 
tank out and looked at it again. It's flat. Only the pitch of the car 
itself is what is going to make the gas go futher to the back of the 
tank or not. The old baffle and or pick up screen was about 3/4 of 
the way to the back. Yes, you will have to pay attention for the 
different reading as to the amount of fuel you have, but honestly it 
shouldn't get that low. The new pick up is almost even with the 
sending unit and I would think give a even more accurate reading in 
relationship to it.
But, that wasn't the reason I designed the system. 
The reason I did it was for people complaining about the expensive 
pick up line, the collapsing of the line and starving the system for 
fuel. Also, heat and pressure has a lot to do with the old line. 
I feel all I have done is bring the system upto date with more modern 
cars set up now where the pump,baffle,filter and sending unit are all 
in one costing $100.00's of dollars. The problems we have had in the 
past won't happen with my new set up. All I have done is eliminated a 
lot of problems. Look at what I put on the front page of the site.
John Hervey
Dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
http://www.specialtauto.com/
   



> Sounds like a good idea but I have a question. Isn't the original 
> baffle in a position in the tank where it is at the lowest point? 
> 
> Steve



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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:08:18 EDT
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: RPM-relay relay

Jan, I have the small relays that go in the door lock module, The are almost 
an exact fit. So they can be modified to work. I just haven't had the time to 
do it. But as we speek, I just got in 3 RPM relay to rebuild and will working 
with that. The relay's in the RPM now coil resistance is 58.8 ohms in the 
circuit, the new relay's I have are reading 122 ohms out of the circuit. Most 
likley the won't work without changing the resistance to match. 
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/



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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:40:20 EDT
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Coolant

In a message dated 7/17/02 5:52:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com writes:


> There are a few types such as one squeeze a rubber bulb to suck some 
> antifreeze into a chamber that has a meter on it (nothing fancy, no 
> electronics just all plastic pieces) and the other are test strips 
> that you dip into the antifreeze and they change color to determine 
> the strength.
> 
> Steve


At my work, we have a spectrograph which can give you the antifreeze 
protection level to the nearest degree.  you take one drop from the radiator 
and put it on a glass screen, the hold the device up to the light, and a 
shadow will appear on a scale of temperatures on the viewfinder, giving you 
the info you need.

also remember to always test the antifreeze from the radiator and NOT from 
the radiator reservior/expansion tank ( the antifreeze in there usually 
festers and doesn't get circulated and will give you an inaccurate reading).  
unfortunately the DeLorean doesn't have a removable radiator cap and we have 
no choice,   however i believe the antifreeze in the header bottle is ok 
because of the circulation design.

Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:08:50 -0400
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: torsion bar adjustment tools

Speaking of all this stuff to do with doors, does anyone have a set of plans
or measurements to make one of those wood block adjustment fixtures like
what Rob Grady used at the Memphis show?  For the cost of one broken back
window that fixture would be worth the trouble to make.  Days before the
show I had to take my door off to fix it.  Without the fixture, re-torquing
the bar was a 3 person job and we still nearly broke the back window.  The
guy holding the torsion thought that "up" meant to allow the torsion bar to
rotate counter-clockwise.  But instead I needed the back of the bar to move
up.

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:42:43 -0400
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: RE: HELP!! Need an evaporator!!!

WOW!

Thanks to everyone who responded to me!

I was able to coordinate with PJ Grady on this.  They have some due to come
in next week, and I will get one of those units.

Thanks again to everyone for the fast response...it gave me hope during my
time of need.  Good to know this community pulls together and is so freindly
when it counts

Kevin Abato

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Abato [mailto:delorean_at_dml_abato.net]
Subject: [DML] HELP!! Need an evaporator!!!
I finally saved up some cash to have my A/C fixed, and it turns out the
evaporator is shot, and I can not get one from DMC Houston or PJ Grady.

If you or anyone you know has one available, PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP!!!



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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:47:14 -0400
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>
Subject: Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...

Sean Mulligan wrote:

> Hey everybody!
>
> Having quite the problem with my D lately.  It's a
> huge non-start problem.  She only starts when she's
> jumped.  The battery isn't dead, in fact it's brand
> new.

How does the car perform when you are not trying to start it.  That is, when you just sit
in the driveway with the engine shut off running accessories, or when you are driving
after a jumpstart.  If you only have problems at startup, you ought to begin with the
starting circuit.

Does this car have the relay update kit?  When I installed the relay update kit, it
significantly increased the power available at startup.  My DeLorean is an early 1981.
These are inexpensive and available from your favorite DeLorean parts vendor.

If your relays are already updated, you might check the starter/solenoid.  These do wear
out, especially after 20 years.  It's possible to have all your current lost through the
starter/solenoid during startup, yet have everything work fine the rest of the time.

- Mike Substelny
VIN 01280
8 years




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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:56:08 -0000
From: "dmc83_gullwing" <jasperkins_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Stereo suggestions

Ok the time has come for me to upgrade my factory cassette, and 
speakers.  They have been great, but the sound just isnt there 
anymore.  But I expected this.

So if anyone out there has an updated system, please send me your 
pic and suggestions.  While I will retain the old system for resale 
(though I dont plan to sell), I am looking for a new system that 
wont require any cosmetic changes to the Delorean.  Also I would 
like to keep it stealth (meaning that I dont want people to be able 
to see speakers, amplifiers, and such.

I am leaning towards the following:
- converting the storage box to a Bass Box.  This will leave the 
backshelf till available.
- updating the speakers (I think 5x9's??)  
- updating the stereo to a LCD Video/Audio unit.  (overkill but I am 
a computer geek too, so I want video :-))

Any and all suggestion would be appreciated.  I heard that one of 
the vendors might make a special stereo wire adapter?  Is there 
anything else I shoul dhave to worry about?  I am budgeting for ~2K.

Thanks,
Jason
#16665




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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:43:07 -0000
From: "basfe25" <dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...

There is a main ground wire that goes from the battery to the 
cahassis. If you jack up the car and crawl under from the passenger 
side you will see that the ground cable from the battery is bolted 
right to the trailing arm bushing (passenger side), at least that's 
where mine is. From what I hear it's a common problem that that 
ground point becomes oxidized and creates a poor ground. When you 
jump start the car (that is if you are jump starting it from the 
engine compartment by placing the ground on the engine block and the 
positive on the "jump start bolt") you in sense are creating a new 
ground from the other car. Check that point out.

Steve



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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:50:20 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Stranded in my Driveway Again...

Load test the battery to make sure it is still good and fully charged. 
Inspect all of the "big wires" from the battery to the motor to make 
sure everything is clean and tight. Look for a missing ground strap, 
and check that the ground connections are on clean metal with no 
corrosion or paint to interfere with the connections. The problem must 
lie between the battery and the place where you connect the jumper 
cables. Either side can cause this meaning you must check the 
electrical path of both the hot side and grounds.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 




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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:58:29 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: locked up door

Geting your door open may require some help. While you pull the cable 
inside to release the locks have a helper try to open the door. 
Sometimes the door is stuck on the latch pin and won't "pop" open just 
by releasing the latch. After opening the door inspect to see if the 
latch pin is properly aligned and not rubbing the door in the wrong 
place. It is a bad idea to defeat the latch, try to keep front and 
rear latches operable. If the rods flex too much it is usually caused 
by not being properly adjusted. Forcing the doors because of being 
out of adjustment will cause the rods to flex eventually causing the 
door to jam. If the doors aren't working smoothly fix before they jam.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757





>      My problem is that just recently my driverside door is locked 
> up in the front. It is not the selianoids, and adjusting or moving 
> the rod on the inside of the door wont help. if any one has any 
> advice on this problem, any help is apreciated.




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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:36:22 -0400
From: "Rustproof" <Rustproof_at_dml_prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Door strut debacle

I purchased a set of DMC struts that did in fact bend the strut mount. (as
well as some cracks in the fiberglass) I assumed that the difficulty was due
to out-of-tolerance positioning of the mounts from the factory. Ultimately,
I lathe-cut one ball socket on each strut to compensate for the extra
length. I went looking through my pile of old parts for the original struts
this week to compare lengths...sure enough, the originals are shorter! I
wish I had noticed or was informed before they went in!
Rustproof




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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:53:22 EDT
From: ZillaDelorean_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Zilla Web Site Now Open

After what has seemed like an eternity, it's finally running !
Thank God !

http://www.deloreanparts.com

Special thanks to our Site Beta Testers.
You guys did a GREAT job !

May I recommend you download the video found on the Alarm page....

WARNING:
This is a VERY Sound & Graphics intensive site.
If you have ANY wierd audio behavior, simple solutions are found on the 
Welcome page.

Bob Zilla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:02:21 -0000
From: "sukia_99" <annesley_at_dml_primus.com.au>
Subject: Back to the Future Delorean

Does anyone have any articles like from Delorean World with articles 
on the Back to the Future cars that they could sell me? I think there 
is one with Kevin Pike who made them(volume 11, no.3), is that right?
Is there any others?
thanks, Antony




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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:56:04 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Stereo suggestions

If you want to install something in the stock dash location, there are not many units to choose from.  Kenwood had a unit that could control a CD changer, but the design is an older one.  The stereo companies simply don't make the shaft style radios any more.

If your going to drive the car, I suggest just cutting the radio bracket (or replacing it with a custom one for your LCD screen).


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dmc83_gullwing [mailto:jasperkins_at_dml_hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:56 AM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DML] Stereo suggestions

<SNIP>
> So if anyone out there has an updated system, please send me your 
> pic and suggestions.  While I will retain the old system for resale 
> (though I dont plan to sell), I am looking for a new system that 
> wont require any cosmetic changes to the Delorean. 
<SNIP>



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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>
Subject: Re: Stereo suggestions

There's a couple things to think about when doing this. First, you've got
to cut the radio bracket to accept a DIN sized radio - or replace the
bracket with the DIN one from Houston.

Next, if you're thinking about this kind of video screen:
http://riocar.org/albums/album77/abb.sized.jpg
Remember that you're going to cover the AC vents when the screen is open.
I thought about using this sort of screen at one point, but thought that
a better way to go would be to mount a screen only on top of the center
console (above the AC vents). Also, when I was looking at these units
(about a year ago), these in-dash screens only came with an AM/FM tuner
and A/V ins. So that means that you'd have to get a CD changer or
something and hide it somewhere else.

As far as speakers go, There's a few places you can put 'em. I've had my
back wall cut out and had speakers installed, so it looks kind of like
this:
http://www.specialtauto.com/images/speakermount.jpg
You can also get kicker boxes that go right by your legs (toward the
outside of the car). DMC Garden Grove installs these, but I imagine any
competent stereo shop could build the boxes. You might even be able to
order them from Don. Once installed, they actually look like they're
supposed to be there. I don't use the standard rear speakers at all. I
also don't have front speakers, but I need to do something about that some
day - but search the archives and you'll be able to find what size
speakers fit up there.

Also be sure to check this out for a good place to hide an amp:
http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/invisibleaudio.htm

And there used to be a link on the DMC News site (in the vendors section)
for a guy that sold a DeLorean subwoofer. It was basically a faceplate and
amp that fit in that cubbyhole behind the drivers seat. Perhaps somebody
still has the link to that page (the guy mostly sold wheels).

-Christian



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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:42:03 -0400
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com
Subject: Re: D in Star Wars

Pretty cool...is that actually in the movie though, or is that a computer generated ad-in?

Maybe I have to go see the movie now.  :)

Richard



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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:40:46 -0700
From: Trevor Johnson <comet4055_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: D in Star Wars

For those of you that are interested.
        ILM (industrial light and magic) ordered several of the DeLorean
Owners Association's videos from the DeLorean store,
www.deloreanstore.com. This was just around a year ago. They said when
they ordered them they were for the new movie, so its nice to see that
they used the information. The films they purchased were the car and
factory video and the back from the future.

Just an interesting tid bit

Trevor Johnson




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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:54:41 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Re: D in Star Wars

I doubt this is real. Aside from a BTTF DeLorean in the background, 
there is also a police car from the movie "The Fifth Element" as well.
But is some nice creativity for a laugh or two.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




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