From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1134
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002 5:46 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: I quit.
From: "SteveDMC" <stevedmc_at_dml_ponchatoulahigh.com>

2. RE: Walt quitting
From: "Mike Griese" <mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>

3. i quit?
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>

4. RE: my first flux capacitor
From: Travis Goodwin <tgoodwin_at_dml_vantagep.com>

5. RE: Walt quitting
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

6. Info-tainment
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. curveball to the flames
From: Mark Fearer <mfearer_at_dml_mail.fearernet.com>

8. Quit and Get Off
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

9. Car modifications/aftermarket wheels, was: i quit?
From: Corey Stup <corey_at_dml_stup.net>

10. NJ Car Show. 10/5
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

11. Re: Walt quitting...
From: "Dan RC30" <Danrc30_at_dml_hotmail.com>

12. Why not feels like everyone else has? My 2 Cents TOO!!!
From: <cahamond_at_dml_bellsouth.net>

13. Quip #2 [was: my first flux capacitor]
From: Farrar Hudkins <fhudkins_at_dml_uno.edu>

14. I'm Sorry (Was: Walt quitting)
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

15. Re: curveball to the flames
From: "Joseph Molino" <foxmul_at_dml_bellatlantic.net>

16. Sunstar Gold Model
From: James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>

17. Atempting to make a DMC fly without a hover conversion.
From: "treehouse2000us" <treehouse2000us_at_dml_yahoo.com>

18. Re: Walt quitting
From: "jv_espey" <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>

19. Quiting...
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

20. RE: Why not? Feels like everyone else has. My 2 Cents TOO!!!
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

21. Re: I quit.
From: "Ralf Philipp" <doc.brown_at_dml_web.de>

22. Life as a DML Moderator
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>

23. Re: Monitor-LEDs instead of clock
From: Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

24. #2727 finally on the road!
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

25. Re: Walt quitting
From: Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:37:16 -0500
From: "SteveDMC" <stevedmc_at_dml_ponchatoulahigh.com>
Subject: Re: I quit.

I for one, do not think your posts should be allowed.

This list is about the DeLorean, not about whether or not you like the list!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] I quit.


> Hello List
> I agree with Walt 100% and I decided to quit myself. The recent reason is
> because my last post was rejected for no reason and with no explanation.
> (BTW, I never used any offensive words) I posted to the oil thread and of
> course got slammed. Then I wanted to post to explain to people that the
> information I have is actually based on something very solid and it's not
> just my opinion. (I was the person that Walt mentioned in his post - the
> story about the oil thread) There is still a lot of confusion about when
to
> change your oil and that you should drive your car as soon as it is
started
> especially when the engine is cold. But our wonderful moderating team
didn't
> give me a chance to prove that what I said was not speculation, just fact.
I
> feel that the person that gets slammed should have a chance to prove that
> he's right. No offence, but I'd rather trust lab results than listen to an
> opinion of someone who works at an oil change place.
> Another reason for my quitting is some of the DMLers themselfs. Some
people
> have no idea what they are talking about but will still post to the list
> slamming others. C'mon!!!! You are not always right!!! For some reason
some
> people think that they know everything better than others. I would never
> slam somebody just because I think he is wrong. The idea is to have a
> conversation not a slamming contest! I get an impression that this list is
> becoming a "who can slam better" contest.
> I have been a member of the DML for a looooong time and during that time I
> have helped a lot of fellow DeLorean owners that needed help. I like
helping
> people and I'm glad I could help. But I enjoy talking about the car and
> helping people much more than arguing with someone.
>
> So, if anyone needs my help feel free to email me at tomcio'AT'gtemail.net
.
> As some people know, I know just about everything there is to know about
the
> car and I'd be glad to help if someone is in need.
> If someone wants to argue about something.... just enjoy your stay on the
> DML - The best DeLorean related slamming contest on the web.
>
> Good bye
> Tom Niemczewski
> vin 06298 (FOR SALE)
> tomcio_at_dml_gtemail.net



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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 21:05:50 -0500
From: "Mike Griese" <mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Walt quitting

[Moderate Note: I find myself in the strange position of warning a fellow moderator that his sarcasm is bordering on a flame.  I think this discussion is healthy and I'll let it go on a little longer.  Express your opinions, but please be nice about it.  -Mike Substelny, signing on for the week]

For a guy who quit, you sure do post a lot...

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Coe [mailto:Whalt_at_dml_att.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 12:18 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Walt quitting


> Let me get this straight - You quit the list because of a lot of
> misinformation, yet you want LESS moderation?!?

I don't quit the list because of misinformation.  However, the list
moderators' feeble attempts at recognizing & warning their flock of any such
misinformation has always been a source of amusement.





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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 03:00:44 -0400
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: i quit?

Ah, the moderators strike back!  Nice shot, red two!

I think that both the moderators and defecting list members both have
legitimate claims.  We have to understand that the moderators have a job
to do.  It's more work than I put into this list, and I'm sure there is a
fair amount of drivel that gets sent to the list and is sifted out. 
Still, many DMLers have legitimate claims about messages disappearing or
being rejected, me included.  It is especially upsetting when only one
DMLers opinions and inflammatory comments land straight on the list, and
the opposing opinions are sifted out.  I think the moderation needs a
little work in this area to provide a more consistent quality of message.
 

I am particularly upset with the list because of the amazing amount of
negative energy that follows significant Delorean modification.  This is
the age old debate between the purists and the modifiers.  The modifiers
are not enraged about the purists keeping their car stock, why are the
purists so upset about modification.  I can see why someone that owns a D
with a known history and know their exact mileage want to keep it stock. 
There are many examples of good collector cars, but you must also realize
that there are many cars that have absolutely zero value as a collector
car.  If not for collector reasons, why keep the original
engine/transmission if one has reasonable means to change them?  Now I
can already hear people chime in- "the engine is reliable if maintained
correctly!".  That's marvelous if you have the ability to claim a car
with good maintenance, but all D's are not peaches and creme.  Like
checksix, I have had many days that I wish I DID have a helicopter and an
airshow to go to.... Now if I could only get the car to move it's butt
out of the garage!  

For this reason alone I will at least join the new DMCForum..  There are
a bunch of people here that have a lot of knowledge and helpful insight
on the Delorean.  Even though these people clearly have their preferences
about what a DMC12 should be, they do not sell those opinions as fact,
and I appreciate that.  Three names that come to mind are Walter Coe,
Dave Teitelbaum and DMC Joe.  I'm sure there are more, if you thing you
belong in this group, I mean you too.  I invite these people to join the
new Forum; your dedication is complementary and would be appreciated
wherever it might be found.

TMASIN, as far as percentages go, I am baffled there are over 1000 people
on this list- I'd be amazed if there are more than 50 people that post
here regularly.  

IN2TIME, to answer your question, I can honestly say that I have not
SIGNIFICANTLY benefitted from the DML.  A little bit of thought,
understanding, reading the manual, or an ounce of research on the web
could answer 95% of the questions posted here.  

Everyone who is ragging on Walt about not quitting, shut up.  He's gone. 


Jim
1537



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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:20:58 -0400
From: Travis Goodwin <tgoodwin_at_dml_vantagep.com>
Subject: RE: my first flux capacitor

I got so tired of the flux capacitor question that I finally built a
simplified one for myself. Now when I show the car I get "Oooh look! He's
got that blinky thing from the movie!" I tell ya, you can't win for losing.

> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:05:25 -0700
>    From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_attbi.com>
> Subject: my first flux capacitor
> 
> Well I never thought it was that bad...  I mentioned I was going to pick
> up
> my Delorean next week and I got hit with my first  "do it come with a flux
> capacitor" comment  I don't own the car yet and it starts already...
> 
> Darkstar 



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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:01:55 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Walt quitting

Why not start a list for messages that have been rejected from the DML.  This is a good mix to get results to satisfy everyone, I'd subscribe to both.

In some cases, I think the moderators let too much crap though.  It depends on which moderator is on that week, and their mood for the day.  They are human, and the rules are left to interpretation.  Walt and others have been talking about valuable resources (other people who have quit) being lost from the DML, and I assure you that with a unmoderated list we would loose many more people just due to the volume of crap that goes over these lists.  There is much history to back this up, just look in to other car related mailing lists.  An example is the SHO list I am on, it has always been unmoderated and a year of so ago we started loosing all of the "brains" in the group due to the volume of bullshit (Kids talking about how they beat some car in a race, or a cop that had the nerve to pull them over when they were cruising at 120MPH), as a result a second list "Tech SHO" was started and had low bandwidth.  It was also unmoderated, but somewhat self policed by the members.  Slowly the "brains" joined the new list and started answering questions again.  Lately, people have been cross posting to both lists and starting to clog up the "tech" list with bullshit to the point where I now read neither list.  The Tech list really needs a moderator....   Maybe splitting the DML in to sub lists would be a positive thing considering the current size?  I think so, as long as they remain moderated (except for maybe a "general discussion" group).

Gary (checksix3)-  I am surprised you are ready to drop your car from a helicopter after only 2 months of ownership.  Is it possible you got one of the many neglected cars out there that have been discussed on the DML for many years?  After re-reading your post (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/25309), I'd say so.  It is those cars that give the DeLorean a bad reputation, sorry you got stuck with one. Did you really base your purchase of a 15K car on a internet mailing list?!   I also agree with your "ego" statement, but point out that tone and intent of a message USUALLY does not come across correctly in e-mail.

Nick-  You post about finding information about you family in Germany does not belong on the DML.  I applaud the moderator who bounced it when you first posted it.  Looks like you got it though anyway in the long run!  Even if someone else on the DML is interested in this topic, it is clearly NOT DeLorean.

Jim-  I agree 100%.  I was annoyed that the original "FatBoy" post made it though.  The initial message from FatBoy was 100% a "flame" and should not have made the list.  Did the moderator use poor judgment?  or was there some "deal" made to get it though?  I don't know, but Mike Substelny (the moderator who let it pass) DID point out "This message is both inflammatory and anonymous..." so I tend to doubt poor judgment.  But as you said I got over it and moved on too!

Walt-  Your right on with Moderators adding their comments to others messages.  If they want to participate in the discussion, it should be under their own account with a regular response post like the rest of us do.  As far as editing, I have only see long quotes deleted and I am grateful for that. If there it other editing going on, I don't know about it but obviously that is a not a good thing.  I have also argued that the moderators should ALWAYS send rejection notices back to the poster with a explanation as to why it was rejected (OK, you don't have to do this for Viagra, get rich quick, and enlarge your breasts SPAM).


I too hope this thread is closed soon...  Right after my post goes thought!  :)




> -----Original Message-----
> From: checksix3 [mailto:checksix3_at_dml_juno.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 11:25 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DML] Walt quitting
> 
> 
> Good for you Walt, about time someone stood up to the "moderation"
<SNIP>
> 
> This list is more entertainment than anything else. For me at least, 
> it certainly hasn't been a valuable source about owning and 
> maintaining this heap of junk. I'm considering donating my car for a 
> tax write off by having it dropped from 2000 feet by helicopter at a 
> local airshow in October.
> 
> Don't even think about asking me to sell it. Nothing will give me 
> greater satisfaction than to see this POS hit the ground at terminal 
> velocity. (I would have dynamited it out in the desert but would have 
> lost even more cash.) No matter what, standby. Film at eleven.
> 
> The other issue is ego. There are a lot of folks here who need to get 
> a life. Its just a car, and not much of one at that.
> 
> Walt, if decide to start a new list that has some brains and free 
> speech, let me know. It may even save this car so that it can nickel 
> and dime some other poor slob to death in the future. ;-)
> 

> 
> 



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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Info-tainment

Lately, this list has, at best, been entertainment. 
However, behind the "censorship", behind the flaming,
behind the "new DeLorean 1/18th scale model"
announcements are some of the most knowledgable
Delorean minds and resources in the world.  When I
started my Delorean project back in 1997, I couldn't
name a single Delorean vendor or resource.  Now,
thanks to the internet and the DML, I've been able to
identify those individuals and resources I need or may
someday need to help me enjoy my D.  I'm also
confident that at any time I could directly email any
of those individuals and could easily get an answer to
my question.  (It's pretty powerful when you stop to
think about it.)  

Anyway, this list is a resource.  It doesn't have some
things you need and it has plenty of what you don't. 
But everyone's needs are different so the filtering of
what is here is up to you.  If you can't find what you
need here, email a list member directly.  Be creative
in your quests for information and above all, try to
enjoy yourself; it is a hobby!

=====
Steve

VIN 2650 ("Project Delorean")
www.projectdelorean.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com



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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:18:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Fearer <mfearer_at_dml_mail.fearernet.com>
Subject: curveball to the flames

Does anyone know the health and/or the whereabouts of Mr. DeLorean these
days?

Mark Fearer
3072
Manchester, New Hampshire




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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:52:33 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Quit and Get Off

If you are leaving the list just go! There is no need to announce your 
intentions. If you are mad about the editing of posts consider what it 
would be like without the moderaters screening most of the JUNK. I 
don't like it when my posts aren't put up either but DEAL WITH IT! 
Grow up and use this list as the great resource it is, a place for 
Delorean enthusiats (spelling) from ALL OVER THE WORLD!) to converse 
about this subject. I hope the moderaters end this thread soon!
David Teilbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> Lately, this list has, at best, been entertainment. 
> However, behind the "censorship", behind the flaming,
> behind the "new DeLorean 1/18th scale model"
> announcements are some of the most knowledgable
> Delorean minds and resources in the world.  When I
> started my Delorean project back in 1997, I couldn't
> name a single Delorean vendor or resource.  Now,
> thanks to the internet and the DML, I've been able to
> identify those individuals and resources I need or may
> someday need to help me enjoy my D.  I'm also
> confident that at any time I could directly email any
> of those individuals and could easily get an answer to
> my question.  (It's pretty powerful when you stop to
> think about it.)  
> 
> Anyway, this list is a resource.  It doesn't have some
> things you need and it has plenty of what you don't. 
> But everyone's needs are different so the filtering of
> what is here is up to you.  If you can't find what you
> need here, email a list member directly.  Be creative
> in your quests for information and above all, try to
> enjoy yourself; it is a hobby!
> 
> =====
> Steve
> 
> VIN 2650 ("Project Delorean")
> www.projectdelorean.com
 

[Moderator Note: Here is an example of a post that I ordinarily would edit.  The post itself does not appear to respond to the quote from Steve below it, but a different post from a different author.  On any other day I would assume that the writer of this post did not mean to include this quote, but today I left it so you can see for yourselves.  - moderator Mike Substelny]



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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:18:02 -0400
From: Corey Stup <corey_at_dml_stup.net>
Subject: Car modifications/aftermarket wheels, was: i quit?


> I am particularly upset with the list because of the amazing amount of
> negative energy that follows significant Delorean modification.  This is
> the age old debate between the purists and the modifiers.  
....<snip>

Not really a "significant" modification, but I found it interesting.

When listing my car for sale, the number one question asked by ALL 
interested parties was:

"Do you still have the original wheels?"   "If I don't want the 
aftermarket wheels would you be willing to come down in price?"

This boggles my mind.   The few DMC owners on the list who have upgraded 
to a modern wheel can attest that the car is COMPLETELY different to 
drive with 15/16's or even 16/17's.  Handling is better, response is 
better, etc. Not to mention that the car as a whole, in my opinion, 
looks about 100 times better.   Those early 80's "turbine" wheels are 
just plain ugly, and impossible to keep clean.

My car is still availble for sale, BTW.   '81, 5sp, flap, black int. 
Yes, I still have the original wheels.   Yes, I will sell it without the 
aftermarkets.  :)

http://www.stup.net/delorean
-- 
-/!\- -/!\- -/!\-
http://www.stup.net/corey




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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:27:33 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: NJ Car Show. 10/5

It is a bit of time away, but the organizer of this show WILL let us show our DeLoreans (even though they are post 1977) and has offered to give us a category but would like to know how many cars will show up.

Admission to the show is $10 a person, The entry fee for a car is $20 which includes you and your passenger's admission to the event.

Please contact me if you are interested, I'd like to give him an idea of how many will show up.




Sea Girt Classic Car Show  To Benefit Camp Sunshine

     Over one hundred foreign and domestic pre-1977 cars will be selected for display at the Sea Girt, NJ National Guard Army Camp on October 5, 2002.  Special notice will be given to the 50th Anniversary of the Corvette.  In support of the event, General Motors will display five exciting concept cars, making the "Sea Girt Classic Car Show" a unique event.  The show will run from 10 AM to 3 PM.

     The Sea Girt Classic Car Show raises money to send New Jersey families to   Camp Sunshine, a retreat for families who have children with life-threatening illnesses, such as cancer, kidney disease, lupus and juvenile diabetes.  Since its inception in 1984, the camp has hosted over 3,400 families from forty states and nine different countries. Located on Lake Sabago in Maine, the program offers participating families recreational activities, professional counseling and workshops for parents, and on-site medical support.  During their stay, families are renewed and strengthened, well siblings are made to feel important too, and children who struggle against terrible diseases are freed to be just kids again.  The camp is staffed almost entirely by volunteers.  There is no charge to attending families. The costs are paid by donations and fundraising events.

     This year in light of September 11th, a portion of the proceeds will be given to the Family Support Program of the 108th New Jersey Air National Guard. Since 9/11, the men and women have been placed on active duty providing midair refueling for planes flying in Afghanistan and along the east coast of the US.

            

                                                            History

 

     In 1999 the Horan family of Sea Girt, NJ lost their seven year old daughter, Bridget, to a brain tumor. Several years earlier, on a visit to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, the Horans first learned about Camp Sunshine. That summer, at Camp Sunshine, their whole family was able to do something that families of kids with serious illnesses rarely get to do. They were able to relax and have fun. Knowing that medical support was immediately available, the entire family enjoyed each other's company and the peace and natural beauty of the camp. In 1999, just months before Bridget died, the Horans returned to Camp Sunshine. It was a time of peace and happy memories.      

     Bridget's life has inspired many people in the local community.  In the past two years local fundraisers have sponsored NJ families to attend the camp. This year a larger effort is being made to enable even more families to have a week's respite at Camp Sunshine.  To support this great cause by entering a car, just fill out the attached car registration form.   For information regarding advertising in the program, attending the Sneak Preview Party or volunteering contact us at the number listed below.

Sea Girt Classic Car Show, 501 The Terrace, Sea Girt, NJ 08750, 732-974-9434, E-Mail sgclassiccarshow_at_dml_verizonmail.com, 501 c 3 application pending


http://www.camp-sunshine.com/




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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:39:46 -0400
From: "Dan RC30" <Danrc30_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Walt quitting...

[Moderator Note:  I don't consider this post to be a flame, but it is getting close.  Let's play nice this week.  Please.  -moderator Mike Substelny]

I agree with Walt in one aspect. He claims that we, as DML subscribers, should be able to skip and delete the posts that we don't want to read and that we are all adults who can make these intelligent decisions. This is true. I skip or delete about 99% of Walt's posts because they are either too long, or there is some sort of rubbish or misinformation in them. I particularly love his post about how custom wheel adaptors are NOT the way to go when putting aftermarket wheels on a DeLorean. Well..... my car was at Memphis; aftermarket wheels and all.... where were Walt's aftermarket wheels? Oh! I'm sorry.... his method didn't work! They were still at his house, and all this after spending thousands of dollars trying to get them to fit! (And they still don't fit from what I understand.) Gee, I guess my custom CNC hubcentric opposable stud rear wheel adaptors must be the wrong way to go... especially since they actually WORK were made by the same company that supplies adaptors for professional race cars.

Walt, you don't want DMC anywhere on your car, and you don't want to contribute and conform to the rules on the list... that's fine. You seem to enjoy being a "DeLorean rebel".You want your car to be a "Walt", and you want your list to be a "Walt". If you want to leave, then leave. Just go already! I've had plenty of posts rejected in the past. The moderators can attest to that. You don't see me whining and complaining. Do I think unkindly of a few of them? Honestly, I really don't care to take even 2 seconds of my time to think about it. I have more important things to do with my life. It's a damn chatting list! Why get so upset? Seems so childish...

Ah screw this... I'm taking my DeLorean (with the perfectly functional aftermarket wheels) out for a drive... I hope Walt enjoys writing his "book-long" posts on his own list.

---Dan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:20:18 -0400
From: <cahamond_at_dml_bellsouth.net>
Subject: Why not feels like everyone else has? My 2 Cents TOO!!!

Don't want offend anyone,  but today there hasn't been the first real tech question.....  Just a load of crap.  Please tell me that this crap is deleted afterwards and is not in the archives.  So what if someone leaves the DML. I joined for insight into what is now a dream come true after 15 years of searching for the right car, at the right time, and at the right amount.  Maybe we can get past this "I Quit" cycle and get on with other things.  Thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents.

Chris
vin#01882




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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:56:37 -0500
From: Farrar Hudkins <fhudkins_at_dml_uno.edu>
Subject: Quip #2 [was: my first flux capacitor]

Quip #2: "I keep it in the back under the book of cliches."

Farrar
--
www.wwno.org
504-280-7000





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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:27:09 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: I'm Sorry (Was: Walt quitting)

I've been told by Nick and some others that I misread his post and confused who had sent the message.

After going back and re-reading Nick's post, I see that I should have read more closely.  I am very sorry to Nick for accusing him of the off-topic post.  It is clear that he was using that as an example of off topic posts the moderator allowed.

If anything, my comment's below make me look like the fool, not him!

Again, sorry Nick!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc A. Levy 
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:02 AM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [DML] Walt quitting

<SNIP>

> Nick-  You post about finding information about you family in 
> Germany does not belong on the DML.  I applaud the moderator 
> who bounced it when you first posted it.  Looks like you got 
> it though anyway in the long run!  Even if someone else on 
> the DML is interested in this topic, it is clearly NOT DeLorean.
<SNIP>



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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:47:49 -0400
From: "Joseph Molino" <foxmul_at_dml_bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: curveball to the flames

I think he resides in Morristown, NJ but I don't know exactly where.  I
heard from my friend who is an electrician that worked at his house
recently.   Also  Madison Car wash sees him regularly.

Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fearer" <mfearer_at_dml_mail.fearernet.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: [DML] curveball to the flames


> Does anyone know the health and/or the whereabouts of Mr. DeLorean these
> days?
>
> Mark Fearer
> 3072
> Manchester, New Hampshire
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:18:19 -0500
From: James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>
Subject: Sunstar Gold Model

Just received word that the Sunstar "American Express" gold version should
be shipping in the next 60 days or so. A sample is on it's way to us, and as
soon as it comes in, we'll have pictures on the web site. Orders are being
taken now for those who wish to pre-order.

A7100113 AMEX Gold 1/18 Scale Model  $35.95

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

James Espey
NOTE OUR NEW ADDRESS/PHONE NUMBERS
DeLorean Motor Company
15023 Eddie Drive
Humble, Texas 77396

281/441-2537 Voice
281/441-2813 Fax
800/USA-DMC1
http://www.delorean.com 




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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:05:14 -0000
From: "treehouse2000us" <treehouse2000us_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Atempting to make a DMC fly without a hover conversion.

I dont know about much of the things that are coroding this DML, but 
I have to say its quite untasteful at best.  I do agree that people 
are suppose to have their say, after all most of us are from 
America.  But I agree with a couple of people from both sides.  Dont 
take rejection of one or several of your posts as the end of the 
world, or give cause to destory your car.  Although it may seem a bit 
unrational to the person who created the post, but for some reason 
the moderator rejected it.  Heck, if I was moderator, I wouldnt let 
the "LAST POST" enter either, as he/she will be gone from the list.  
However, if I made a last post, I would have loved to see it while 
reading up the last couple of DML emails.
	I also understand these people who want to quit.  They feel 
that unlisted emails and bad advice given by some of us over various 
topics.  Thats Life people.  This list is moderated to keep out the 
skum and make the water as fresh as it can, but even vital vitamins 
and minerals dont make it through the Britta Water filter.  Take a 
few weeks off, and when your DeLorean breaks down again, come back to 
the list and we will do the best we can to help you out.  The only 
thing the nutral people of this list asks is to try not to critize 
the list, as we all cant be bad.
	I hope we move on.  I must mention that I am currently in the 
market for buying a DeLorean, if you want to sell it to me just to 
divert the distruction of the car I would be willing to fix the 
gremlings.  If not, send me a video tape of trying to make DMC fly 
without a hover conversion.  I'm sure it will be both quite 
entertaining and adventful. 

Thomas Porter





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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:05:44 -0000
From: "jv_espey" <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>
Subject: Re: Walt quitting

Surprisingly, I'm in agreement with Marc...someone must be putting something 
in my coffee.

Nearly SEVEN years ago, I started the DML as a moderated list after bad 
experiences with the UN-moderated RX-7 mailing list to which I subscribed. I 
think it was Arnie Brandon who gave me the nickname "Iron Hand Espey" as a 
tongue-in-cheek comment regarding my moderating style.

For a great deal of time after turning over the DML to the current moderating 
team, I gnashed my teeth about how much 'crap' they were letting through. It's 
a thankless job, with no rewards other than a lot of abuse from frustrated 
members and the occasional 'atta boy'.

People have discussed the different moderating styles of the various 
moderators, and while that is true to a degree, I recall having different styles 
myself depending on my mood, the time of day, and perhaps most importantly, 
previous experience with the person attempting to post a message - I had less 
patience with those folks who in the past had proven themselves to be a pain 
in the ass. And, if you didn't like the way I ran the DML, you were more than 
welcome to leave and start your own. The DML is still the largest and best 
forum for DeLorean information on the internet (perhaps the world), and still 
the only list that ALL the vendors and clubs monitor because it is the way to 
keep their fingers on the pulse of the hobby that is impossible any other way.

As Marc mentioned, I would be interested in seeing a DMC-News "Reject" list 
setup. Set it up as a list that only the list-owner(s) can post to, and the 
moderators can just forward all the rejected postings to that list. Not only do I 
think it would be interesting to see the depth and breadth of the crap we're all 
NOT seeing, it might make the moderators think a second or two longer 
before out and out rejecting a posting.

The list MEMBERSHIP has grown and evolved a great deal over the last 
seven years, and perhaps it's time for the list itself to grow a little, too. It would 
be nice to hear from the 950+ others that subscribe whom we never hear from, 
I think we'll all agree. 

James Espey
Moderator Emeritus


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> Why not start a list for messages that have been rejected from the DML.  
This is a good mix to get results to satisfy everyone, I'd subscribe to both.
> 
> In some cases, I think the moderators let too much crap though.  It depends 
on which moderator is on that week, and their mood for the day.  They are 
human, and the rules are left to interpretation.  Walt and others have been 
talking about valuable resources (other people who have quit) being lost from 
the DML, and I assure you that with a unmoderated list we would loose many 
more people just due to the volume of crap that goes over these lists.  There is 
(SNIP)
list with bullshit to the point where I now read neither list.  The Tech list really 
needs a moderator....   Maybe splitting the DML in to sub lists would be a 
positive thing considering the current size?  I think so, as long as they remain 
moderated (except for maybe a "general discussion" group).
> 




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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:13:08 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Quiting...

Hmm. Perhaps I live in a bubble, because I had no idea that there were so 
many underlying problems here. But it seems that we do. I'm not going to take 
sides with anyone here. Because yes I too have had posts rejected. Most of 
the time when I took a step back and looked at them from a different point of 
view, I could understand, and agree with them. And sometimes, obviously not. 
But that's not the point. The point is that we have a problem here that has 
been addressed, and now needs to be corrected. The DML has been a great 
resource for me. It has helped me solve a good many issues with my car, and 
has helped me along the way with a whole number of both related, and 
unrelated issues. Now a few people are leaving, and that is of course fine. I 
really wish that you would reconsider, because after all, you're making more 
work for me by having to read 2 seperate lists. If I have a question, or anything 
like that, I do not want to X-post it to 2 seperate mailing lists.

The DeLorean is as unique a car, as those people around it. And when I say 
that, I wish to encompass everyone from concept of the car, until now, all of us 
here now. Over 2 decades ago, people came together to build these cars. Our 
differences here on the list about postings are beyond petty compaired to 
theirs. After all, here we have a problem, and people are simply threating to 
leave. In Northern Ireland, if there were problems, "solutions" usually 
consisted of bombs and bullets. But still yet, they all managed to come 
together to build our cars. (Granted they also got paid to be there) The most 
we really have to fear are a few harsh words. But the point is, if they could 
compromise certain things to come together for a worthy cause, then so can 
we! We've all got a lot to live up to here. Now I'm certainly not asking to forgive 
and forget. I just feel that now that we have all agreed upon an issue, we owe 
it to ourselves, and to everyone else to stick this thing thru. If someone wants 
to leave this list, then yes, I for one want to hear about it. I want to know why. 
Because if there is a problem that exists, then it certainly needs to be 
corrected. What makes this list is not just the fact that everyone here has 
joined for a common topic, or a common goal: The preservation of the Car, the 
Company, and the Man. What makes this list is that we've taken the time to 
join, and to communicate. None of this is required, but people here have 
taken the time to do so.

Now it has been discussed before that the Moderators have a lengthy job. So 
I'm not going to try and slam them, or anything like that. But what hasn't been 
discussed is that the contributors also have the same type of job. It isn't 
always easy to post a question, nor especially a solution. It takes a bit of work, 
so when someone's post gets rejected, I know that it feels like you put in alot 
of work for nothing. So we all seem to agree that message approval/topic 
continuation needs work. Fine. I'll agree to that too on both sides. Even I 
agree that sometimes we all should also read up a bit on "nettiquite" as well. 
This would be apart of a compromise on both sides. Now it seems that we all 
still have a good deal more to say on this topic, so please, let's make sure that 
all here are heard. This thread is FAR from closed yet. But myself, I would like 
to ask of everyone here that we now work twards a resolution. This "Us vs. 
Them" mentality between the list members and moderators is not a productive 
one. So I implore everyone to try and dissolve this. If must choose an "enemy" 
of some sort to all rally against, let us choose Failure. And if we must choose a 
common goal to all fight for, let it be Sucess.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a full tank of gas, a freshly tuned motor, 
lovely driving weather, and nothing to do. In other words, I'm going to spend 
today behind the wheel of what I am here for. I would like to kindly suggest 
that everyone else do the same.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:20:47 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Why not? Feels like everyone else has. My 2 Cents TOO!!!

Bah, it happens a few times a year.

"This too shall pass"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cahamond_at_dml_bellsouth.net [mailto:cahamond_at_dml_bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 12:20 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DML] Why not feels like everyone else has? My 2 Cents TOO!!!
> 
<SNIP>
> of searching for the right car, at the right time, and at the 
> right amount.  Maybe we can get past this "I Quit" cycle and 
> get on with other things.  Thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents.
<SNIP>
> 



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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:06:50 +0200
From: "Ralf Philipp" <doc.brown_at_dml_web.de>
Subject: Re: I quit.

Walt!

No offense, but...

How can you claim to know what "most of us" expect? Only because you had 13
positive replies from over 1000 DML contributers?
Could it be that "most of us" don't care about "your" discussion and
therefore didn't reply?

>But what we have now is
> instead an oppressive regime.

Come on... you are exaggerating.

> The censors take pride in controlling the "signal-to-noise ratio" of the
> DML.

I am very glad that they do so. If they didn't, I WOULD QUIT. The "noise
level" would be to high for me.
I don't need discussions about a stretch limo or a front engine. It is o.k.
to send a link to a homepage containing these infos (I really was impressed
by the front engine setup) but I don't whish a lenghty discussion about it,
because I (and surely "most of us") never will be installing a front engine.
And don't say, I can easily erase these messages. Often enough the subject
lines are wrong or meaningless.

> If the censors of the DML can agree to the 5 suggestions above, then
great.
> Otherwise the rest of us are starting a new group that operates by these
> rules.

You are free to do so!

Again: no offense, but I think you belong to a minority.

Ralf
Germany

P.S.: You could start a poll to see, what "most of us" want.





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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:45:56 -0700
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>
Subject: Life as a DML Moderator

First something DeLorean-related and happy:

I drove my DeLorean many places around Cleveland over the weekend.  It
turned lots of heads, got lots of compliments, and ran great.  When rain
fell my doors did not leak.  When heat and humidity became oppressive my
AC worked perfectly.

Now something about moderating:

I can't speak for other moderators, but I know that I reject very few
posts.  I do often trim quotes from posts, trying to keep within the
"Don't quote more than one message" policy.  This annoys a few "Live"
subscribers, but is very helpful to subscribers who read the Digest
version and Back Issues.

By far the most often rejected posts are personal messages.  It's very,
very common for a subscriber to read a DML post and hit the "reply"
button to send a personal message.  Contrary to what you expect, your
email reply button sends a message to the DML, not to the person who
wrote the post.  Don't be embarrassed, everyone does it.

When I do reject a message, I always send an explanation (in the case of
duplicate message, where a subscriber accidentally sends the same
message many times, I only send one explanation).  I presume the other
moderators frequently send explanations, too.

As to posts that disappear into cyberspace, that happens to the
moderators, too.  In fact, during my own previous shift as moderator I
sent a post to the HALON thread.  My own post disappeared, presumeably
somewhere in the bowels of Yahoo.  I was moderating, and I never had the
chance to approve my own post!  I have no idea how to track this, but my
personal experience says that any email sent to dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
has about a 99% chance of getting to the moderators.

On a related note, sometimes posts are mysteriously delayed by Yahoo.
When I am moderating, I sometimes notice messages delayed for many hours
after I have approved them.  This appears to be completely random and
unpredictable.  When I am not moderating I don't notice it, and I
presume most subscribers can't tell.  But a few subscribers become
impatient when their message shows up several hours after a message that
was actually written later.  When this happens there is nothing the
moderators can do, and I presume you will encounter the same problem on
any Yahoo Group.

- Mike Substelny
DML moderating team, on the job this week




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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:58:21 -0500
From: Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Monitor-LEDs instead of clock



Jan
  Very impressive work.  

BOB Brandys




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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:28:20 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: #2727 finally on the road!

Well, it has been a long haul. I'm posting in lieu of Rich, who does
lurk on the list but doesn't like giving out his e-mail address on an
international list.

As many of you are aware the story can be read from start to (almost)
finish at

www.delorean.co.uk/1458and2727.html

I have a huge backlog of photos from Memphis and Supercar Sunday to put
up, as well as a batch of #2727 as she nears the finishing line. SO I
thought I'd queue jump and give you guys a preview.

The first twin turbo to enter the UK, #2727 needed the engine stripping
down to the block, head gaskets, new plugs, injectors. leads, 4 new
valves, a water pump, turbo piping, exhaust gaskets, the roof and both
quarter panels fixing, windscreen, master brake cylinder, both rocker
panels, louvers and quite a bit of work on the fuel system.

It was the latter which we so desperately tried to get working for
Supercar Sunday 3 weeks ago but unfortunately failed. However, thanks
for all your suggestions, it nevertheless needed a specialist. And
that's what we got! A local injection specialist diagnosed a fuel
pressure problem, tuned both banks, and a whole load more besides. He
spent a whole morning on the car and she's now running as sweet as...
well, a car with a re-built engine should!

On Saturday, in fantastic weather, Rich was finally got to drive his car
for the first time. Here's the moment she reversed out of the workshop
complete with 9 months of workshop dust

http://www.cix.co.uk/~mgutkowski/DSCN0407.JPG

(and for the obsevant among you, the foglight wiring wasn't connected up
- as per this article http://www.delorean.co.uk/foglights.html)

The first ever run was 4 miles up the road to the local Shell Garage,
which recently started offering Optimax (99 octane special super
unleaded petrol). Rich waits for the Optimax pump, the twin turbo
exhausts putting some good company to shame :-) (it's a 1983 plate BTW)

www.cix.co.uk/~mgutkowski/DSCN0410.JPG

Of course, I couldn't let the day go by without dusting off my car so
the two "sisters" can finally pose together for the first time. both
engines running

www.cix.co.uk/~mgutkowski/DSCN0412.JPG

It was a proud day. Jason, our mechanic, definitely looked like a proud
dad sending off his kid to college!

And today things got better! #2727 passed her MOT first time (annual
test required on all cars and for registration). We're really looking
forward to this weekend :-)

Martin
#1458







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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:47:24 -0600
From: Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org>
Subject: Re: Walt quitting

At 08:05 PM 7/29/02 -0000, you wrote:
>As Marc mentioned, I would be interested in seeing a DMC-News "Reject" list 
>setup. Set it up as a list that only the list-owner(s) can post to, and the 
>moderators can just forward all the rejected postings to that list. Not
only do I 
>think it would be interesting to see the depth and breadth of the crap
we're all 
>NOT seeing, it might make the moderators think a second or two longer 
>before out and out rejecting a posting.

I think that this idea is a good one. Let everyone see what sort of junk
the moderators have to wade through. I've belonged to numerous other groups
that were un-moderated and finally ended up quitting them in disgust. It
was a pain just to wade through the messages to sort the good from the bad.
Sure, you can just use your delete key. IF the subject header on the
message bears any resemblance to the actual message body.

>The list MEMBERSHIP has grown and evolved a great deal over the last 
>seven years, and perhaps it's time for the list itself to grow a little,
too. It would 
>be nice to hear from the 950+ others that subscribe whom we never hear from, 
>I think we'll all agree. 
>
>James Espey
>Moderator Emeritus

I'm not one of the main posters. I probably post twice a month, if that. So
I guess I qualify as one of those 950+, and I've got to say that the
moderators are doing a heck of a good job at a time consuming, thankless
task. Sure, they're not going to please everybody all of the time. I've had
a few posts rejected too, but overall I have to support the moderators.

Also, as Mike S. said in a post just recently, messages do just disappear
or get delayed. Yahoo Groups is not perfect. Don't blame the moderators
EVERY time your post goes to the great bit bucket in the sky.

Mark N
VIN 6820



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