From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1297
Date: Friday, December 06, 2002 7:59 AM

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There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: wet carpet pad
From: fjk143_at_dml_aol.com

2. Re: Water Pump woes, nearing end of tear down.
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

3. Re: No power at 4000 RPM
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

4. 300+ hp is possible!
From: "C. C. Cameron Putsch" <putsch.1_at_dml_osu.edu>

5. clutch question
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_attbi.com>

6. Transmission Miracle! Thanks David
From: "dmc_delorean_2000" <dmc_delorean_2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Re: wet carpet pad
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

8. RE: 300+ hp is possible!
From: "mgutkowski_at_dml_cix.co.uk" <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

9. DeLorean's Soul
From: "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com>

10. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: Vin 5386 <delorean_stainless_at_dml_yahoo.com>

11. Calander
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>

12. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com

13. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: "thebrave65" <johnnysher1_at_dml_cox.net>

14. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

15. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>

16. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: john fredt <hecklerkochgmbh_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: BondAtomic_at_dml_aol.com

18. Re: DeLorean's Soul
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 22:12:24 -0500
From: fjk143_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: wet carpet pad

steering shaft bushing or other firewall penetrations



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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 04:47:09 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Water Pump woes, nearing end of tear down.

Have you ever used a helicoil thread insert? I'm afraid the driller
outers are correct on this one, and it is going to be extremely hard
to drill straight through the broken bolt. Your removal hole will most
likely end up off center or at an angle. But you can carefully work up
to a larger clean hole, tap it, and step yourself back down with a
helicoil. May end up SAE (my small town parts houses don't stock
metric helicoils), but at least pump will be snug.

Curious what happened? Steel and aluminum, in the presence of
moisture, weld themselves together. I've actually seen a graded steel
bolt take a hunk of aluminum out of an intake manifold. On the plus
side, your helicoil will eventually weld itself to the block better
than the original tapped hole, and the new bolt will be seated on
steel threads for easier removal next time.

Good luck.

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_e...> wrote:
> All went well on my water pump removal save one tiny thing.
> The bottom mounting bolt broke!.. The pump is off, but only about 
> 1/8 - 1/4 inch of thread is sticking out of the mounting nub (nub?) 
> on the head.. and that little bit already rounded off from my vice 
> grips.
> I can't get a drill in there (even with no muffler in the way.. non-
> stock exhaust) to tap it, and I've tried even seeing if I could turn 
> it with a chisel. Being that there is a drain pug (I think it's the 
> water jacket plug... why it's on the top of the block.. I don't know. 
> fill me in on what that is) in the way, I can't drill from the back 
> either. I have some ground effects that would make removing the rear 
> facsia even less attractive an option that it was before... so i'm 
> trying to avoid that.
> 
> Any tips or tricks to removing such stubborn bolts??
> 
> Goddamn. It's such a simplistic engine. I love working on it cause 
> everything (pretty much) is easy to get to, and look at and replace. 
> But leaning over that rear facia just kills my back at knees.
> 
> I think once I get done putting back together my engine i'm going to 
> just epoxy coat the entire car.... it's funny how much I hate rust... 
> on my DeLorean.
> 
> Work -- DeLorean -- Sleep, that's my whole day lately.
> James 4009 when will get around to changing my userID?




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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:48:38 EST
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: No power at 4000 RPM

Scott, See below.
John Hervey

<< Recently I posted a message asking for ideas on what could be causing
 the drop in power at full throttle once the engine started going past
 4000 rpm.
  
 I installed a gauge to measure fuel system pressures.
  
 All reading were taken on a cold engine, 70 F ambient temperature. ( what 
are your raedings hot.)
  
 Control Pressure = 2 bar
 Primary Pressure = 4.9 bar
 Rest Pressure = 2.9 bar
 Rest Pressure after 10 minutes = 2.5 bar
  
 Looking at my chart, it looks like primary pressure is at the bottom end
 of the allowable checking pressure 4.9 to 5.5 bar.
 I can set the primary pressure to the setting range of 5.1 to 5.3 bar.
  
 My question is;
  
 Will raising the primary pressure affect the Control Pressure? ( Yes ).
  
 Is there a way to adjust the Control Pressure?( Yes, But by the experts. )
  
 How is it done? >> ( Take the fuel dist off and send it to me. )

The fuel pump doesn't create the pressure, all it does is pump volume of gas. 
The restrictions create the pressure. The primary pressure can only be 
adjusted by a shim in the unit. ( Picture on my web site.) When it's right ( 
Yes )  it also creates a back pressure ( trying to keep the gas from going 
back to the tank) which will raise or lower the control pressure which in 
turn will allow the control plunger to up or down sending gas to the 
injectors. Speaking of injectors, Have they been cleaned or replaced. You may 
be starving the car gas at high RPM because the injectors are partially 
stopped up. 
John Hervey
www.specialTauto.com
   



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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:37:50 -0500
From: "C. C. Cameron Putsch" <putsch.1_at_dml_osu.edu>
Subject: 300+ hp is possible!

I just wanted to point out to those who offered criticism when I said I
could do up to 400hp in a Delorean, that it can and has been done. I have
the stuff and can do it for cheap. I am not young and stupid, just young.

Casey Putsch http://putschdesign.tripod.com/




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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:15:41 -0800
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_attbi.com>
Subject: clutch question

does anyone have a list of tools thai i will need to drop the tranny?? i
know there are the basics but what extra stuff will i need?? torx? 25
universals?? any unusual tools??

Thanx,
Darkstar

BTW, I have gotten all the responces on the clutch kits so although i have
not responded i have recieved them and will contact everyone after the
install to be sure everything fits right.




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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:23:58 -0000
From: "dmc_delorean_2000" <dmc_delorean_2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Transmission Miracle! Thanks David

hi all
I just had to post this. My Automatic Transmission Has caused me 
problems ever since I got my DMC 2.5 years ago and nobody seemed to 
know what was wrong with it. It just kept getting worse and worse, so 
much so that I had decided to give up and dicth the A/T for a M/T. 
that was when I recived an e-mail from David Teitelbaum advising me 
against the very costly swap and offered to help diagnos my A/T 
problem. I thought "well if nobody else could figure it out with the 
car right in front of them, how is this guy going to help me over the 
internet, but what do I have to loose" so I gave him a discription of 
my problem and he gave me instructions how to build a light box. 
after we found out the problem he instructed me to remove the 
computer and gave me instructions on how to repair it and even 
offered to give it a shot if I wans't handy with a soldering iron 
(which I'm not). so he gave me directions on where to send it and 
everything, so I did. After David worked his magic he sent it back to 
me a little conserned about the kickdown. well Long story short I put 
the computer back in the car and it WORKED PERFECTLY! I was so happy 
my dmc is ALIVE again. David, You are a life saver! it shifts better 
than it ever has even the Kickdown. My advice to anyone out there 
that has a mysteriuos problem with their Automatic DeLorean, E-mail 
David Teitelbaum (jtrealty<AT>webspan.net) He Knows what he's Talking 
about!
Again Thanks DAVID
Happy Holidays to Everyone
Tony Izzo III
VIN: 2467 (still under construction BUT DRIVABLE:)




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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:56:54 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: wet carpet pad

Josh

When I lived in Houston (lots of heavy rains)I and several D owners 
would chase water leaks. For one leak with symptoms similar to yours 
we found water actually coming in at the door seal where the curve 
begins at the area of the light switches. The water would run down 
the channel and come in under the seal at the curve and accumulate 
in front of the seat. This was especially true if a seal was rotated 
or replaced. A generous amount of black silicone under the seal for 
about 5 or 6 inches before the bend and at the bend stopped the leak 
every time.

The other leak sounds similar to ones we had when the drain to the 
outside near the fuel pump cover would get blocked. The water would 
fill up in the drain space until eventually the water would spill 
into the air intake and then all over in the car. Usually out the 
air feed at the fan motor that would of course eventually screw that 
up.

There is a DeLorean bulletin about finding leaks that is in one of 
the manuals that DMC, Grady and others have available. That is a 
good help also.

Have success, Harold McElraft 3354







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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:31:28 -0500
From: "mgutkowski_at_dml_cix.co.uk" <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: RE: 300+ hp is possible!

Hi Casey

My memory of your original claim was along the lines of "400hp from a DMC
PRV for an affordable price" - correct me if I'm wrong...?

Site's down, BTW

Martin
#1458
#4426

Original Message:
-----------------
From: C. C. Cameron Putsch putsch.1_at_dml_osu.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:37:50 -0500
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] 300+ hp is possible!


I just wanted to point out to those who offered criticism when I said I
could do up to 400hp in a Delorean, that it can and has been done. I have
the stuff and can do it for cheap. I am not young and stupid, just young.

Casey Putsch http://putschdesign.tripod.com/




--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:56:48 -0000
From: "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: DeLorean's Soul

This is an interesting question that my girlfriend and I were 
pondering over the other night. It suppose it could be applied to any 
car, but moreso to a rare (some would call it an endangered species 
of) car such as ours.
What actually makes our DeLorean OUR car. Or better phrased; what 
determines if vin 4009 is still vin 4009.
Some may say simply the vin plates or the legallity of the situation, 
but that's hardly romantic enough for MY DeLorean.
Some may say the Frame... but can I not give my car a NEW Stainless 
frame? And yet she would still be 4009.
In fact, over the course of 50 years I could go through the car and 
practically replace EVERY part of the car, and yet she would retain 
the vin 4009. Putting aside such trite things as "the law" or "common 
sense"; why is it that a car that (hypothetically) 50 years ago 
consisted of completely different parts... is still consider by the 
owners and world at large to be the SAME CAR?
Do our cars have some intangible essence akin to a soul? That after 
I've replaced the engine with a Northstar v8 (again hypothetical, 
I've no plans to do that), and replaced the frame with a stainless 
one, and am forced to replace all the stainless pieces due to hail 
damage, etc... etc... IT IS STILL THE SAME CAR?
At what point do we give in and admit we've hacked the car too 
much... that it has undergone too extensive of repair to still be 
considered vin4009... or even a 1981 DeLorean DMC-12 at all!?

Hey, the list has been kinda slow... humor my crazed rantings-
James L vin4009




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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:44:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Vin 5386 <delorean_stainless_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

Well you know it wouldn't go to long before I would
have to put my 2 cents in here and the list knows me
to good at this point hehe :D. DeLorean soul... Vins
and titels aside. what really makes up a cars soul is
infact not really the car. It's actually the people
behind the car. When I'm done with 5386 theres not
going to be a whole lot left thats original. lets face
it people. parts ware out, things fall off. In the end
it is the stamp or attitude of the car that remains.
even long after a car is say gone, it's soul can still
live on. When I got my DeLorean I instantly knew what
I was gonna do. I saw the car and it spoke to me. Ahh
no... there were no booming voices from heaven. Every
car has it's own personality, every DeLorean does have
a soul but it's the people who come along and touch it
that make it who and what it is. You could strip all
the indenifications off of all the Deloreans, line
them up and let the owners walk around them. I
guarentee every owner could pick out there own car. I
have a bond with my D, we know each other as weird as
that is. My car is happy, it's glad to be restored, I
have no problems working on it. When I sit in it I
feel like it's my best friend, I have put my own
personality into it creating a type of soul. A car is
not a car unless the people who own them take care of
them and treat them with respect and dignity. Okay I
gotta go the men in the white coats want to talk to
me, lol!

Todd
Vin 5386
--- James LaLonde <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com> wrote:
> This is an interesting question that my girlfriend
> and I were 
> pondering over the other night. It suppose it could
> be applied to any 
> car, but moreso to a rare (some would call it an
> endangered species 
> of) car such as ours.
> What actually makes our DeLorean OUR car. Or better
> phrased; what 
> determines if vin 4009 is still vin 4009.
> Some may say simply the vin plates or the legallity
> of the situation, 
> but that's hardly romantic enough for MY DeLorean.
> Some may say the Frame... but can I not give my car
> a NEW Stainless 
> frame? And yet she would still be 4009.
> In fact, over the course of 50 years I could go
> through the car and 
> practically replace EVERY part of the car, and yet
> she would retain 
> the vin 4009. Putting aside such trite things as
> "the law" or "common 
> sense"; why is it that a car that (hypothetically)
> 50 years ago 
> consisted of completely different parts... is still
> consider by the 
> owners and world at large to be the SAME CAR?
> Do our cars have some intangible essence akin to a
> soul? That after 
> I've replaced the engine with a Northstar v8 (again
> hypothetical, 
> I've no plans to do that), and replaced the frame
> with a stainless 
> one, and am forced to replace all the stainless
> pieces due to hail 
> damage, etc... etc... IT IS STILL THE SAME CAR?
> At what point do we give in and admit we've hacked
> the car too 
> much... that it has undergone too extensive of
> repair to still be 
> considered vin4009... or even a 1981 DeLorean DMC-12
> at all!?
> 
> Hey, the list has been kinda slow... humor my crazed
> rantings-
> James L vin4009
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


=====
For up to the minute details on the restoration of Vin5386 point your browser to, http://www.khpindustries.com/stainlessrestorations.html

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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 00:47:42 -0000
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Calander

DML Members

We are putting together a 2003 Delorean Calander that should go out 
with our first issue of Gullwing Magazine.

If you have that special shot that you think is calander material and 
would like to send it in for consideration...now is the time!  If you 
have a pic that helps depict the season... spring, summer, fall, 
winter (D-Rex this is where you come in) that would be great.  Dont 
be bashful.  We will look at everything from Concours to Custom and 
the daily drivers to.  Please include a short bio of yourself and the 
car.

A high resolution (300+ dpi) jpeg file would be best, but we will 
find a way to work with what you may have.

Several of the months are taken but we have more to fill.  Lets have 
fun with this!

Thanks
Ron & Cheryl Wester
Gullwing Magazine




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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:56:38 -0500
From: RJRavalli_at_dml_AOL.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

James, interesting--I never knew there could be such a thing as DeLorean philosophy/metaphysics.  So if you close a DeLorean gull wing door in a forest, does it make a sound? :)

Honestly, I have no answer to your question--but I would start with asking if it is ever feasible that an owner *would* replace *every single* but of car that is original, meaning all screws, carpet pieces, knobs, windows, etc.  If it is probably never going to happen (?), then maybe we never need to worry about the issue, because as long as *something* original exists, it can still be considered its VIN number, right?

Richard



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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 02:31:20 -0000
From: "thebrave65" <johnnysher1_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

Well James, you could still retain the same vin but call it 4009 
ver.1a or 2b or 3a and so on and so forth.  Then you could tell 
people you own 4009 verson 6.2 or whatever.

Johnny 

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_e...> wrote:
> This is an interesting question that my girlfriend and I were 
> pondering over the other night. It suppose it could be applied to 
any 
> car, but moreso to a rare (some would call it an endangered species 
> of) car such as ours.
> What actually makes our DeLorean OUR car. Or better phrased; what 
> determines if vin 4009 is still vin 4009.
> Some may say simply the vin plates or the legallity of the 
situation, 
> but that's hardly romantic enough for MY DeLorean.
> Some may say the Frame... but can I not give my car a NEW Stainless 
> frame? And yet she would still be 4009.
> In fact, over the course of 50 years I could go through the car and 
> practically replace EVERY part of the car, and yet she would retain 
> the vin 4009. Putting aside such trite things as "the law" 
or "common 
> sense"; why is it that a car that (hypothetically) 50 years ago 
> consisted of completely different parts... is still consider by the 
> owners and world at large to be the SAME CAR?
> Do our cars have some intangible essence akin to a soul? That after 
> I've replaced the engine with a Northstar v8 (again hypothetical, 
> I've no plans to do that), and replaced the frame with a stainless 
> one, and am forced to replace all the stainless pieces due to hail 
> damage, etc... etc... IT IS STILL THE SAME CAR?
> At what point do we give in and admit we've hacked the car too 
> much... that it has undergone too extensive of repair to still be 
> considered vin4009... or even a 1981 DeLorean DMC-12 at all!?
> 
> Hey, the list has been kinda slow... humor my crazed rantings-
> James L vin4009




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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:00:17 EST
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

In a message dated 12/5/02 6:59:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com writes:

<< Do our cars have some intangible essence akin to a soul?  >>

Personifying your DMC as having a soul is the product of your mind projecting 
it's own perceptions onto the car. When you look into it's head lights do you 
see the divinity of the Almighty? Simply put, if you see your car as having a 
soul, then thats your own creation and it may very well seem real to you. But 
not to me. Be sure to write back when it starts talking to you... ( Remember 
"My Mother The Car" ? )....

Anyway, if it indeed had a soul, then it should know right from wrong and 
should always start, never let it's doors sag, and always get good fuel 
mileage....If it did have a a soul, then it could aspire to become the 
proverbial "Buddah",  that so many followers (aka: other unenlightened  
makes)  are afraid to "meet on the road"....

All in fun... :-)
Jim



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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:45:17 -0500
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 05:56:48PM -0000, James LaLonde wrote:

> What actually makes our DeLorean OUR car. Or better phrased; what 
> determines if vin 4009 is still vin 4009.

[snip]

> At what point do we give in and admit we've hacked the car too 
> much... that it has undergone too extensive of repair to still be 
> considered vin4009... or even a 1981 DeLorean DMC-12 at all!?

Keep in mind that every cell in your body is replaced with a nice shiny
new one (assuming proper meiosis); on average, your entire body is
swapped out every 6-8 years or so (is there a biologist in the house? Do 
I have that right?). Are you still the same person you were? 

Putting aside for the moment the fact that brain cells don't experience
this (that whole 'romantic' thing again), I'd say that I'm still me
because I'm still recognizable as such. I can look in the mirror and 
say "yup. I recognize that guy...he's me!" So one defintion would be
that a DMC (or any car) ceases to be one when you can't look at it and 
say that it is. If you went though 4009 (or I through 2867) and over the 
course of a few years replaced every part with a non-DMC (either OEM 
or new replacement) part, at some point you would no longer have a DMC; 
you would have something you (or I) had cobbled together from the ground 
up. Rich's projects are (obviously) still Ds (although I personally feel 
the hovercraft is stretching that pretty close to the limit. =)  ) as is 
Curtis' or Rick G's car, because despite the fact they've been altered 
to hell and gone, you can still look at them and say "yup. that's a DMC." 

That doesn't fully define it, though; the car doesn't necessarily need 
to be identifiable as such by any layperson. If it did, I suspect none 
of us would have DMCs. ;) Mine's been identified as (in no particular order):

    * a lamborghini
    * "who makes a 'delorean'? toyota? honda?"
    * "what the heck is /that/?"

So, to refine the definition, it should be identifiable as a DMC by 
someone who knows DMCs. If you replaced the frame with an SS one,
dropped a NorthStar in the back, gave it groundskirts, custom wheels,
and a paintjob, anyone on this list would still be able to identify it as
a DMC, and therefore it would be. 

Now, as to when 4009 would stop being 4009 because you'd replaced a good
number of the bits with other DMC parts, I'd say that's subjective. At
what point does the car no longer /feel/ like 4009? If you wound up
replacing all the bits that had the VIN, I suspect it would be 4009
until/unless you sold it to someone who didn't know you or the car up
until then, at which point they'd likely start thinking of it as
whatever VIN the DMV thought it was (it doesn't /feel/ like 4009 to that
person, because they never met her). The car is inextricably linked to
the person who loves it (usually, but not necessarily the owner), and 
will likely keep the identity associated to it by its current lover. 
Interestingly, if your car was passed down to a relative, it would (I 
suspect) keep the same identity, which opens up a whole new philosophical 
debate. =)

Noah
#2867


-- 
"Hey, kitty! Who's a good kitty? Yes you are! Who wants to go 
destroy earth with daddy?"
                            -- Diesel Sweeties #562



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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:53:01 -0800 (PST)
From: john fredt <hecklerkochgmbh_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul


 
This is an easy one,its not the same car anymore when the doors are replaced.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:13:01 EST
From: BondAtomic_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

I believe the DeLorean's "soul" is different for everyone. Our DeLorean, VIN 
4275 is almost completely stock, except for window regulators and a 
fanzilla-thats about it. The tires are also new (BFGoodrich Radial T/As are 
very good). 4275 is 4275 to me as long as I know what is being done to it, if 
anything. To me, I believe our DMC will remain stock....well, stock enough to 
keep it close to up to date. I still see D Rex as a DeLorean. I still think 
the Back to the Future vehicles are DeLoreans. I guess the best way for me to 
describe it is in the movie "Christine." The kid restoring the 1958 Plymouth 
Fury may have gone through it quite a bit, replacing old/damaged parts and 
such, but the evil soul of the car was alive. 

Although this posting was random and made no sense, it makes sense to me or 
something.

John
4275


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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:26:57 -0000
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean's Soul

jame, I start talking like that after I've had too much to drink :)

"Deloreanosophy"


Erik

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_e...> wrote:
> This is an interesting question that my girlfriend and I were 
> pondering over the other night. 

[duplicate quote snipped by moderator]



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