From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 857
Date: Monday, January 07, 2002 10:26 AM

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There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

2. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com

3. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: "B Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

4. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

5. RE: Fuel Glitch - Solved
From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_att.net>

6. ETDOC Spring gathering
From: Aaron Posey <cadysrme_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Car wont start.
From: "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>

8. DeLorean for Sale (Reduced Price)
From: "tahoe98" <tahoe98_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. RE: ETDOC Spring gathering
From: "Palatinus, Joe" <jopalatinus_at_dml_davidson.edu>

10. Car wont start (continued).
From: "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>

11. Re: Re: Battery hold-down strap
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

12. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: "Michael Quinto" <mquinto_at_dml_mediaone.net>

13. Re: ETDOC Spring gathering
From: "dmc6960" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>

14. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

15. Re: Front Suspension Mod's
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

16. O-ring part number
From: "georad1" <georad_at_dml_gehennatech.com>

17. Re: Car wont start (continued).
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

18. RE: DeLorean Chat
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

19. RE: youngest delorean owner and local d owner
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

20. Happy Birthday!
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:55:14 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's


Toby & list,

You have my full attention on this one.  My opinion, excuse the cliché, is
that you are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  If DMC stayed
in business, there would probably be a recall on this part.  I don't think
that a simple bolt-on kit would be safe because it would change the stresses
on an already weak part.  Before anything is bolted on, the bottom should
have a plate welded on to box it in and -- more importantly -- more metal
needs to be added to the outermost edge of the arm.  Have you seen the
photos of  Tom Long's broken control arm?  If anyone were to do all this
welding, then they might as well weld on your modifications instead of bolt
them on.

There have been lengthy 'off list' discussions about designing a better
front lower control arm and making a new geometry heavy duty sway bar fit.
I wish that the moderators would allow more brain storming about ideas such
as this on the DML, but they are more interested in seeing posts about what
has been done rather than allowing the list to be cluttered with
speculation.  So I'll give a summary of what we came up with so far:

To start with some name dropping, Steve Wynne of DMC Houston announced at
the SEDOC event last September that he had plans on the drawing board for
producing a new front suspension that would replace (or eliminate?) the
front sway bar.  This included what he described as an "A" arm that would
replace the weak OEM lower control arm.  Keep in mind that the front sway
bar works primarily as a wheel locator bar which makes reengineering very
difficult.  Without the bar, the control arm would fold back.  Even if the
arm were made stronger or in an "A" shape or triangulated (as you all it),
if it didn't bend then the frame surely will.  Of course your idea would
reuse the old sway bar, so this wouldn't be a problem.  (I'm just explaining
some background for everyone else.)  From what Steve described, I think he
is proposing a weld-on fixture that would connect between the front
suspension of both wheels.  Something like this could be made strong enough
to eliminate the need for a wheel locator bar.  Considering that his Stage
1, 2, etc engine upgrades are not sold as kits, I assume that such will be
the case with his suspension upgrade if he ever gets around to making it.
Such a setup could add substantial strength and eliminate the need for a
wheel locator bar.

Like you, I have considered a new control arm design that would attach to
the outer points on the frame instead of at one point in the center like the
OEM does.  (Many people have independently come up with this idea.)  This
could still use a connection in the center making it look like a 3 ring
hinge or it could eliminate the center connection which would then need to
be replaced with a spacer.  For what it's worth, I don't think this idea is
practical unless a new fixture is made to bolt or weld around the frame that
would connect between both control arms.  The advantages of this is that it
could add substantial strength and eliminate the need for a wheel locator
bar (which would then make room for a more simple sway bar).  And even
without a bar, it may improve handling because the OEM bar does little to
stop sway anyway as its primary function is as a wheel locator.

Taking all this into consideration, my plan is to make a new heavy duty sway
bar that could bolt up to the OEM control arms.  However, I don't mean for
this to be done without either replacing the arms with improved aftermarket
ones or having the original arms substantially reinforced.  My main concern
at this point is that the OEM-size sway bar studs might be too thin to be
strong enough to support the added stresses of having a real functional bar
that actually does the job of a sway bar in addition to being primarily a
wheel locator.  What compounds this problem is that using a thicker bar will
proportionally make the OEM-size stud a high stress point.  The engineer
suggested turning down the ends of the bar on a lathe so that they would be
gradually tapered.  This would distribute some of the load away from the
stud.  This sounds like a great idea to me and is the one we are planning
for now.  The alternative is to use a thicker stud which would then require
a larger bushing and a custom lower control arm.  And if this is the way we
end up doing it, then I would expect anyone buying the heavy duty control
arm would as a matter of course also not want to risk using their weak OEM
control arms even if they could be made to fit.  Then we would sell a
complete kit that includes a new sway bar, control arms & bushings.

Considering the additional fore/aft stability that this stiffer bar would
provide (particularly if we used nylon bushings instead of rubber), it may
give all the handling improvements we are looking for and make the "A"
arm/triangulation idea a moot point.  Food for thought.

I have learned a lot from the extensive conversations I have had with the
owner of Addco (who made the rear sway bar accessory for the DeLorean) and
with the engineer who designed it (he is now working for himself in Florida
and is the one who is going to make the new front sway bars.)  I originally
thought that we would have to temper the new sway bars after they were made,
but this is not the case.  Instead they start with certified pre-tempered
bars and cut & bend them to shape.  That really simplifies the process.  But
what makes this so damned difficult for the DeLorean is that this is more
than just a sway bar; it is also a critical wheel locator, so dimensions and
integrity are critical.  Normal sway bars have fittings welded on the ends
which are not tempered afterwards.  But since we also need it to work as a
wheel locator, any welding to the ends may weaken it too much.  Then we are
looking at having to re-temper them which is a can of worms better left
unopened.  So far it looks like the process is going to be: 1) starting with
a straight pre-tempered bar and turning it on a lathe to taper the ends and
cut threaded studs.  2) the bar is bent to shape such that there is more
threaded stud on the ends than necessary.  This is to give some breathing
room because if the studs are made too far apart or the bends not done exact
enough, then it can't be turned on a lathe again once it is bent.  3)
spacers (washers) are placed on the ends to fill in the breathing room.  4)
bushings must be welded to the front of the bar to match the OEM design.
This stabilizes the bar laterally.  Welds at these points won't adversely
affect the tempering of the bar.

The next step in this project is for me to sit down at my drafting table and
whip out some engineering drawings of the OEM bar.  It would seem that I
could just send a sway bar to the engineer, but additionally he needs
engineering drawings because we are changing the shape (that's my job) to
increase the car's turning radius by stopping the wheels from rubbing the
bar.  This is even more critical for those of us with wider aftermarket
rims.  I have asked the list for help from anyone who is sitting on a copy
of the factory design drawings that show this bar.  It could save me some
time & effort, but so far no one has come forth.  Meanwhile I have other
projects that I need to finish first such as making all these convex mirrors
I have promised to so many people.  (sigh)  But oh what fun we are having!
Toby, you are welcome to comment, suggest & criticize on a wholesale level
all you want.  You are the materials expert here.  All the help I get will
be appreciated.

Walt    Tampa, FL





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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:54:28 EST
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's

Toby,

    A few things you might want to think about. By adding stiffeners to the 
lower control arm and basically triangulating it, you create a ridge assembly 
which now pivots around the centerline of the inner pivot bolt. The outer / 
balljoint end of this arm will now only move up and down in relation to the 
inner pivot bolt. 
   If you look at the original setup on the D you will see the outer end of 
the lower control arm is held and guided buy the sway bar. Now as the 
suspension moves up and down the sway bar pivots around its front connection 
to the front crush tube. This means the other end which is attached to the 
lower control arm actually swings thru an arc, so as the suspension moves up 
and down the outer / balljoint end on the lower control arm not only goes up 
and down but it actually moves front and backwards thru the arc of the sway 
bar.
    When you triangulate the lower control arm (I've actually made a set 
before by taking an upper arm and cutting the center balljoint section out 
and then welding it to the sides of a lower arm) you create a binding problem 
between the triangulated lower control arm, which now only wants to move up 
and down, and the sway bar connection, which wants to move front and back. 
The rubber bushings will compensate for some of this, but you still have 
suspension parts in a bind. Poly bushings make this binding condition worse 
because of less flexibility.
  This is what sway bar "links" on other applications eliminate, the binding. 
If you go with the triangulated lower arm setup, you should think about a 
different sway bar setup also.

    Marty  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:42:54 -0600
From: "B Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's

No one mentions the effects of caster, camber, or toe-in and if,in the DeLorean suspension,it changes under load. Modifying anything here may require changes elsewhere, shock dampening, spring compression rates, and so on. Different chassis setups react differently to even minor changes in any of these items. In racing it can take miles of track time to dial in a new suspension to make it react properly. I agree that the lower control arm could use some improvment but it takes a great deal of experiance to know exactly what will work and what won't. I think we have a pretty intelligent group but I wonder if any of us has enough experiance in this regard to be able to predict how any of the changes discussed will affect the handling. Simply stiffening roll isn't the total answer in setting up a suspension. You can change stress points and reduce or
eliminate any slop in the suspension but it's difficult to know just how the
handling will be effected. The overall balance of the car could change for the worse after spending a great deal of time and money. 

Bruce Benson






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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:46:44 EST
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's

Group, The only thing I have to say about front suspension and lower control 
arm, is that just about all vendors have a new and improved lower control 
arm. Bern Heninger has them made out of 1/8" steel which is twice the 
strength of the original. You can see them on my web site since he doesn't 
have one. Also, the price is coming down. I will post it next week. When I 
talked to Steve at the Houston meet about a month ago, he said he only had to 
fix or modify 3 to 5 per year. They normally have 25 + D's in the shop to 
work on all the time. Dave Teitelbaum also said in an email about a month 
ago, there were some new lower control arms also coming from another vendor.  
Just my 2ct's worth.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/bodyparts.shtml   



________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:57:06 -0600
From: "Scott Mueller" <scott.a.mueller_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Fuel Glitch - Solved

Christian,

Do not consider the reattachment of the old hose a permanent fix.  You
really need to replace the hose.  Your original hose has most likely
degraded over time and should be replaced.  Another thing that can destroy
the hose is the over use of gas additive such as injector cleaner, octane
boost or gas driers.  If the bottle says 4 oz. per gallon of gas, believe
it.

Scott Mueller

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Williams [mailto:delorean_at_dml_framezero.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 2:15 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Fuel Glitch - Solved


I figured that with all of the problem mails that go out, a solution email
might be a breath of fresh air.

I only just today got around to attempting to fix my fuel glitch. With
my car being a daily driver, I didn't want to go digging in the gas tank
and end up creating new problems.

The problem again was that at a quarter of a tank, the car would lurch,
like there was a problem with the fuel supply. After responses from the
list to check that the fuel baffle is secured to the bottom of the tank,
and that the fuel pickup hose isn't punctured,

It turned out that the pickup hose was cut almost all the way around,
right where the hose clamp holds it onto the bottom of the fuel pump. It
was hanging by a small piece of the hose (maybe 1/32nd of the edge of it).
It was just a matter of fully ripping it off and re-securing it to the
fuel pump. As a first-timer going into the tank, it only took about 30-45
minutes to get it all taken care of. I even used enough gas tonight to see
the fuel level light come on.

If anyone else if having this problem, take a bit of time and dig in. It's
really quite simple.

-Christian

PS. Funny quote of the past week: A little girl in a parking lot watched
my door open and asked her mom "What's that?" Not, "What kind of car is
that?", but just "What's that?". :)



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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To search the archives or view files, log in at
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:07:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Aaron Posey <cadysrme_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: ETDOC Spring gathering


Hey all-

Time for yet another round of fun with the East Tennessee DeLorean Owners Club! 

Mark March 9-10 on your calendars.  We are still planning the itenerary, however, we already have the hotel set up and the major part of the trip planned.  The hotel is yet again the Park Vista Resort Hotel in Gatlinburg, TN. (parkvista.com for contact numbers) We chose this again because of the super hospitality they provided the DeLorean owners at the last meet in November.  The rate is a special $82 and when you call, tell them you are with the East Tennessee DeLorean owners group.

The main part of the gathering is for us to take our DeLoreans on the curviest road in America per distance. Over 311 curves in 11 miles. It is known to all driving and biker enthusiasts as The Dragon.  We will actually drive it twice, once we reach the end, we will turn around and do it again! What an exercise for our cars.  

The founders are trying to design a Tshirt that we will have available for anyone that wants to purchase one. We will soon have more information on the etdoc.com website.  If you need to contact any of us for information please do so. There is a contact page on the website.

You may also IM myself on AOL Instant Messenger (CadysRme) or John Weaver (DeLoreanSS), or Joe Palatinus (TenJoe) for me information.

Thanks-

Aaron Posey

ETDOC  ---  865 310 2228  ---  cadysrme_at_dml_yahoo.com



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 16:13:41 -0800
From: "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Car wont start.

Today  my car wouldn't start. It tries to start up, but the engine isnt 
firing. After I let off the ignition, there is a loud whirring sound from 
somewhere followed by clicking that i think is coming from the a relay. So 
what do you think from the information I've given? Any advice is 
appreciated!

I think my fuel pump is what makes the whirring noise, but its never been 
this loud before.

Thanks, Adam

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 00:56:55 -0000
From: "tahoe98" <tahoe98_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: DeLorean for Sale (Reduced Price)

PRICE:  $12,500

Year:  1982 DeLorean DMC-12

Mileage:  Approx. 37,500 

Color:  Stainless Steel exterior, grey interior.  Black floor mats.  

Transmission:  5-Speed & drives very, very smoothly.

Condition:  Very Good.  Only one ding on the rear engine support 
(smaller than a nickel).  Please see photos at 
http://www.jbenboatright.com/delorean.htm or call for more detail.

Upgrades (note:  every item below has a receipt to go with it):  

    --Custom Digital Dash from Dakota Digital.

    --New instrument binnacle (instrument pod) from DMC Houston.

    --Cruise Control from Dakota Digital.

    --New Radio Bracket (From DMC Houston) for DIN-style radios.  

    --SONY In-dash CD Player.  Part of the "Xplod" line from Sony.  
This CD player also plays MP3 files.  

   --LockZilla with new & upgraded door lock solenoids

   --LockZilla Keyless Entry

    --Die Hard Gold Battery

    --SpecialTauto.com "DeLorean 150" High Amp Alternator

    --SpecialTauto.com Upgraded RPM Relay (Bosch), upgraded relays, 
and circuit breakers.  Also includes the "Fan Fix 2x2" (fixes the 
Fan Fail light & operation of the fans).

    --"LampZilla" upgraded tail light circuit boards with upgraded 
55 watt bulbs (much brighter than original).

    --COMPLETELY REPLACED A/C system, using R-134a.  All system 
components have been replaced, including a high-performance 
replacement for the orifice tube.  

    --New A/C fascia decal (panel where the A/C controls are 
located).

    --New A/C mode switch diaphragm (controls where vacuum pressure 
goes to open A/C doors).  

    --NEW 3-core radiator from PJ Grady.  This radiator has 3 
(instead of 2) cores & brass end tanks (vs. the original plastic end 
tanks).  

    --Radiator hoses replaced with new silicone hoses from PJ Grady.

    --New thermostat with gasket.

    --New "Reproduction" Owner's Manual from PJ Grady.

    --New door pulls/straps.  

    --Rear Tires are only 4 months old Michelin Pilot XGT H-rated.  
Front Tires are in very good condition Yokohama AVS.  

    --Overheat protector from DMC Joe. (Prevents air from getting 
into the coolant system.)

    --Spark plug wires (Bosch), plugs (Champion), distributor cap & 
rotor are only 2000 miles old.  

    --New Super Stock coil.  

    --New headlight switch.  

    --New shiftboot (with metal frame) from DMC Houston.

    --"DeLorean" stainless steel letters for rear bumper (see 
photos).  

    --New/upgraded hard urethane steering column bushing.

    --New rear sunshade lift pistons.

    --New Angle Drive & new/improved lower speedometer cable.

    --Upgraded window motor regulators (from PJ Grady).  

    --Upgraded "Adjustable Clutch Link" from PJ Grady.  

    --New "DeLorean" hood emblem.

    --New/Upgraded cooling fans (from Flex-a-lite) rated at 2000 
CFM.  Also a new Otterstat (temp sensor that turns on the fans).  

CONTACT INFO:
Ben Boatright
Cell Phone/VM:  404.597.8849
Home:  770.887.1281
Work:  770.343.3571
tahoe98_at_dml_yahoo.com
http://www.jbenboatright.com/delorean.htm





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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:08:40 -0500
From: "Palatinus, Joe" <jopalatinus_at_dml_davidson.edu>
Subject: RE: ETDOC Spring gathering

I have a room reserved, and if anyone is planning on comming to this event,
and does not want to foot the bill fortheir own room.
I would be willing to split my room, and this way the cost of the event
would go down considerably.
Just a thought
Joe Palatinus
VIN 6808 17167

>The founders are trying to design a Tshirt that we will have available for
anyone that >wants to purchase one. We will soon have more information on
the etdoc.com website.  If >you need to contact any of us for information
please do so. There is a contact page on >the website.

>You may also IM myself on AOL Instant Messenger (CadysRme) or John Weaver
(DeLoreanSS), >or Joe Palatinus (TenJoe) for me information.

 in Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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To search the archives or view files, log in at
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 17:10:35 -0800
From: "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Car wont start (continued).


The engine wont turn over. I measured the voltage across the battery while 
trying to start the car. the voltage drops from 12.5v to 10v, this should be 
adequate to turn the starter. I also swapped relays since a bunch of them 
are the same, and that didnt help either. I dont think its the starter, but 
I'm new with cars. The car gives the shake, and the standard chugachuga 
noise that is usually quickly followed by the engine starting up. THe loud 
whirring noise is also present, sounds like the fuel pump, but much louder 
than normal.

THanks
Adam

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx




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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:44:28 EST
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Battery hold-down strap

Gary, Joe and Group. The battery hold down is in Delorean World, Volume 11, 
#2. Written by Don Sigler. If you would like to see a picture of the straps 
in action and a describution as to how to loop it, you can see it on my web 
site under Talk & View at the bottom of the page.
John hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/talk-view.shtml    



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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:52:25 -0800
From: "Michael Quinto" <mquinto_at_dml_mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's

Hello List,
Right now I am still in the middle of building a jig to make a set of new
lower control arms for my car.
I have most of the pieces machined and ready for assembly.
The material I chose to use is 4130 Chromolly 0.063" thk. It's the same
thickness as the original mild steel arms but already twice as strong.
My question to John is, why did Bern use such thick material to make them
stronger. Why isn't he concerned about un-sprung weight. Heavier arms will
change the ride handling. The arms were made lightweight But cheap for a
reason.

For people on this list who don't know:
Sprung and Unsprung Weight

"Sprung" weight is a term used to describe the parts of an automobile that
are supported by the front and rear springs. They suspend the vehicle's
frame, body, engine, and the power train above the wheels. These are quite
heavy assemblies.


Minimize suspension unsprung weight for best handling. Unsprung weight is
what is on the outboard end of the suspension - what is not being "sprung"
by the suspension. This includes wheels, tires, brake components (rotors,
calipers, drums) suspension arms, spindle, rear axle and associated brake
components, and the leaf springs. By reducing unsprung weight you are
reducing mass in motion in the suspension. Less weight moving up and down
means the suspension can react more quickly to changing road surfaces and
keep the tires planted on the ground better. This all equals higher
acceleration traction, cornering traction, and overall better handling and
road feel.

Regards,
Mike
vin#1113


----- Original Message -----
From: <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Front Suspension Mod's


> Group, The only thing I have to say about front suspension and lower
control
> arm, is that just about all vendors have a new and improved lower control
> arm. Bern Heninger has them made out of 1/8" steel which is twice the
> strength of the original. You can see them on my web site since he doesn't
> have one. Also, the price is coming down. I will post it next week. When I
> talked to Steve at the Houston meet about a month ago, he said he only had
to
> fix or modify 3 to 5 per year. They normally have 25 + D's in the shop to
> work on all the time. Dave Teitelbaum also said in an email about a month
> ago, there were some new lower control arms also coming from another
vendor.
> Just my 2ct's worth.
> John Hervey
> http://www.specialtauto.com/bodyparts.shtml
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:45:58 -0000
From: "dmc6960" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>
Subject: Re: ETDOC Spring gathering

Being way up in Minnesota, there is no feasible way for me to attend 
this event (but that doesn't mean I may not make a surprise appearence 
in the future, as I have other "semi-surpise" visits planned for a 
few other cross country events this year).  But I would like to add a 
comment about the feature attraction Aaron has lined up here.  As you 
may have heard in previous posts, this curvy road dubbed "The Dragon" 
is an incredible drive.  I had the opportunity to drive this road in 
my D last August as I was staying with Aaron a few nights following 
the Houston open house.  I'm pretty sure I had every muscle in Aaron's 
body very tense the way I kept whipping around those curves breaking 
loose the rear end on more than one occasion.  We even got some 
videotape both in and out of the car on this road.  Everyone within a 
day's drive from this area must attend!  I dont consider there to be 
any option here as Aaron's events get better and better every time.  
(More than I can say for my MNDMC events, come on MN guys!)  I'll end 
my shameless plug by telling everyone to never store your D and drive 
it as often as possible (unless it has less than 1000 miles, in which 
I would recommend storing it for that sake bla bla bla.)

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC-6960

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Aaron Posey <cadysrme_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> Hey all-
> 
> Time for yet another round of fun with the East Tennessee DeLorean 
Owners Club! 

> The main part of the gathering is for us to take our DeLoreans on 
the curviest road in America per distance. Over 311 curves in 11 
miles. It is known to all driving and biker enthusiasts as The Dragon. 
 We will actually drive it twice, once we reach the end, we will turn 
around and do it again! What an exercise for our cars.  
> 





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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 01:14:59 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's

> why did Bern use such thick material to make them
> stronger. Why isn't he concerned about un-sprung weight. Heavier arms will
> change the ride handling. The arms were made lightweight But cheap for a
> reason.

I was able to look at Byrne's custom lower control arm in person.  He did a
very nice job.  I suggested that he add a plate to part of the bottom to box
it in.  (You still need room to get the shock absorber inside.)  He agreed
that was a good idea and would probably start making them that way.  Of
course, this would make it heavier still.  Problems associated with extra
weight never occurred to me before, and I really don't think it is
significant enough to worry about for two reasons.  1) It's not that much
weight in proportion to the total un-sprung weight.  2) The "lever arm" of
the control arm's mass is small compared to the "lever arm" of everything
else hanging on the suspension.  In other words, the closer the mass is to
the pivot point, the less distance it travels and the less a change in
momentum affects the suspension response time.  For example, in one hand
hold the entire wheel assembly (if you can) and in the other hand hold the
lower control arm.  Then keep in mind that the extra mass of a heavy duty
control arm is closer to the frame than the rest of the assembly and
therefore imposes less inertia. (Wow, I'm really having to stretch my
fingers to type out these technical words.  :)  By the way, has anyone
compared the mass of the aftermarket lowered springs compared to the OEM?
My PJ Grady springs have more coils but are shorter.  I bet they weigh more.

I am not up on what the strengths of various alloys are (yet).  So I am
curious that even though you are using a high strength alloy, are your welds
going to be comparably as strong?  Also, I'm curious to know how you are
going to make the seat for the spring and the bushings.  Byrne's spring seat
is a case of overkill.  It was cut on a lathe in order to make a lip deep
enough to keep the spring from slipping off.  It was also made extra thick &
heavy.  The bushing for the swaybar stud was likewise cut on a lathe.  So
how are you making these sections?  Pictures!  Show us pictures!  :)
Remember that when you re-seat the spring to be sure that the tapered end of
the last coil is resting on the center of the control arm and not over the
side.  The next time I have my suspension apart, I would like to put a thin
soft ring between the spring & seat to stop the squeaks.  I greased it
before, but that didn't help much.  I'm thinking maybe some teflon sheet,
paper gasket material or maybe even leather.  Suggestions anyone?

When I installed my lowered front springs, I was going to replace my lower
control arms at the same time with what PJ Grady was in the process of
making.  At the time he was working on a prototype pair that he was going to
sell me, but time ran out.  I need to put the car back together to make it
to the SEDOC show last September.  So I ended up using my OEM arms.  I'll
forward to you what I learned from him in the process of discussing this
deal:  He originally had some arms machined from billet aluminum but never
used them.  He didn't get too detailed with his reasons why except that they
weren't quite good enough to meet his standards.  His next prototype was
made of steel.  I assume that by now he has finished his first batch of 50
and has been selling them to the public already.  Does anyone know his
progress?

Walt    Tampa, FL




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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 06:17:27 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Front Suspension Mod's

You are very correct in worrying about the effects of changing one 
thing and what it does to many other areas in the car. With the 
importance of the front end set-up as far as handling and safety is 
concerned this is no area for a novice to dabble in. You must consider 
all static and dynamic conditions and handling limits, all of the 
critical suspension settings and so forth. Very few of us have the 
expertise, time and money to go into a development plan for something 
so complex. You could earn a college degree by the time you have 
learned and understood what goes into a suspension system. Just 
changing the ride height,a seeming minor change, affects ALL of the 
critical front end settings including suspension travel (which no one 
seems to worry about!). The front suspension was designed by some of 
the top people in the automotive engineering world and it STILL had a 
recall to correct a major problem. The front suspension as it is is 
pretty good it is just that besides normal wear and tear the arms get 
damaged by tow truck operaters. I don't think a redesign is what's 
needed here, all we need is a good source for replacement parts. This 
is not a case of a badly designed part although I am sure someone 
will redesign it anyway. Look up [unsprung weight] when you are over 
designing suspension parts and don't forget what happens when you try 
to stop the car and the front wheels are trying to move foward while 
transferring all of the braking forces into the body (and this is just 
going straight and level).
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "B Benson" <delornut_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> No one mentions the effects of caster, camber, or toe-in and if,in 
the DeLorean suspension,it changes under load. Modifying anything here 
may require changes elsewhere, shock dampening, spring compression 
rates, and so on. Different chassis setups react differently to even 
minor changes in any of these items. In racing it can take miles of 
track time to dial in a new suspension to make it react properly. I 
agree that the lower control arm could use some improvment but it 
takes a great deal of experiance to know exactly what will work and 
what won't. I think we have a pretty intelligent group but I wonder if 





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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 06:22:16 -0000
From: "georad1" <georad_at_dml_gehennatech.com>
Subject: O-ring part number

Hello Group, I'm reinstalling the air plenum and mixture control
unit on #2196 and need the part # for the o-ring that goes on the
idle speed motor airpipe to the mixture control unit housing. I 
can't find it in the parts book.

Thanks
George R. Radomski
#2196
working on #4258




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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 06:23:59 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Car wont start (continued).

You must try to narrow down to the system that is malfunctioning. At 
this point it could be either fuel or ignition. The easiest place to 
start is to pull a spark plug wire and see if you are getting spark. 
Just switching or changing parts won't usually do it unless you are 
lucky but you still won't really know what you are doing. When you are 
trying to start do you smell gasoline? Is the fuel tank empty or very 
low? You should hear the fuel pump running at least a little. Check 
and cycle the inertia switch. Measure the voltage at the fuel pump.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> 
> The engine wont turn over. I measured the voltage across the battery 
while 
> trying to start the car. the voltage drops from 12.5v to 10v, this 
should be 
> adequate to turn the starter. I also swapped relays since a bunch of 
them 
> are the same, and that didnt help either. I dont think its the 
starter, but 
> I'm new with cars. The car gives the shake, and the standard 
chugachuga 
> noise that is usually quickly followed by the engine starting up. 
THe loud 
> whirring noise is also present, sounds like the fuel pump, but much 
louder 
> than normal.
> 
> THanks
> Adam
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx




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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:07:49 -0500
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: RE: DeLorean Chat

Hi everyone...

This has been pretty cool to chat with eveyone, and here is some information
to make it easier.

You can download a universal chat program from www.trillian.com (and it is
free!)  This will let you talk to people on AIM, MSN, Yahoo, IRC, and ICQ
with one interface.  SO you do not have to give up your MSN or other
accounts!  ITS GREAT!

Sign up for an AIM account at www.aol.com (also free) and put us all on your
buddy list!  Chat with ya soon!

DMCNEWS.com admins:  Can you perhaps set up a page on the site with a
listing of AIM IDs?  for future reference?

Kevin Abato
VIN# 16680  NJ Plate: BCKNTYM
AIM ID: iguanajade
MSN ID: iguanajade_at_dml_hotmail.com



-----Original Message-----
From: dmc6960 [mailto:ultra_at_dml_isd.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:48 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] DeLorean Chat


I know this topic has come up from time to time, but nothing big
really ever surfaces from it.  However recently, quite a few of us
have been chatting over AOL Instant Messenger chat rooms.  It is
completely random, but can often grow quite large during the nights
when a lot of people are online.

If you wish to become part of these chats, please contact one of the
following people, and we will record your AOL or AIM screen name and
invite you into the chat next time we both have one and see you
online.

Me (Jim Reeve)
ultra(at)isd.net
Screen name - dmc6960

Matt Olans
mpolans(at)creeper.com
Screen name - mpolans

Aaron Posey
cadysrme(at)yahoo.com
Screen name - cadysrme

Either send one of us an IM if you see us online, or send us an email
with your AOL or AIM screen name.  Just remember, we do this at random
times (usually during the evening) so it could be a while untill we do
it and you are online to join in.

Depending on the interest level, I may also put up a small webpage
with basic info on all the common chatters so none of us will
continuously need to introduce ourselves for newcomers.

I hope to chat with some of you in the near future!

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC6960



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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:10:11 -0500
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: RE: youngest delorean owner and local d owner

what happened to this car?

-----Original Message-----
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com [mailto:Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 6:24 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] youngest delorean owner and local d owner



    Then youngest owner was a newborn baby, whose Grandfather purchased the
car new in 1981 and put it into storage when she was 1 day old...beat that!

Sincerely,
Mike


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moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:54:55 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: Happy Birthday!

Happy Birthday JZD!!


Did anyone send him a card this year?



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