From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 945
Date: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:55 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Emissions Test
From: Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org>

2. Re: Porsche engines in a DeLorean
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>

3. Struts
From: "paulus260572" <paulus29_at_dml_eurobell.co.uk>

4. Brake servo
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury_at_dml_btinternet.com>

5. Re: Emissions Test Exemptions
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

6. Re: What to do?
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>

7. Re: Water pump woes
From: "dmcman82" <srubano_at_dml_optonline.com>

8. Re: Water pump and related
From: njp548_at_dml_aol.com

9. Re: Struts
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

10. Re: Water pump woes
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

11. Porsche engines in a DeLorean...American subculture
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com

12. Interior Mirrors - - Where the H#_at_dml_?
From: "stevepeck1" <stevepeck1_at_dml_yahoo.com>

13. Axle thunking-FIXED
From: Delorean17_at_dml_aol.com

14. Re: Water pump and related
From: "dherv10" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>

15. Over heat protector questions.
From: "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>

16. Re: Water pump woes
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com

17. RE: water pump woes
From: "Darryl Tinnerstet" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>

18. Headlight switch, Exterior mirror switch fixes.
From: "stevepeck1" <stevepeck1_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:06:31 -0700
From: Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org>
Subject: Re: Emissions Test

It varies. In Utah, the vehicle has to be a 1967 or older model to be
exempt. Anything 1968 or newer has to be tested. And I don't think it's a
sliding scale. I think that dividing line stays right there at the 67/68
models.

Mine passed without doing anything special to it. I think if the car is
running well it should pass without any problems.

Mark N
VIN 6820

At 04:06 PM 3/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>shoudn't our cars be exempt from emissions testing now that they are 20
>years old?
>
>Tom Watkins
>#005732
>
>http://www.geocities.com/outatime81




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:30:42 -0000
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
Subject: Re: Porsche engines in a DeLorean

This thread started as a feasability issue and has somehow wandered
from "it can or can't be done" issue into a "costs too much" issue. 

While I do not ever remember a discussion in which someone wanted to
install a Porsche engine in a Delorean to save money, I would agree
that a Porsche engine would cost more to maintain than the PRV.  The
reason to consider the Porsche engine swap would be to increase the
performance of the Delorean with additional HP, which it would do.
A Porsche engine would also be a logical option if considering a
Porsche transmission (such as Walt is considering), but again this is
not primarily a cost issue.  Even the Northstar V8 conversion that is
available from ACE Engine Conversions does not exactly come in at a
"low cost" price, with a total conversion price of $20,000.

If the discussion is to do an engine swap to increase performance(HP), 
with minimum irreversable modifications to the Delorean engine bay as
possible, then the Porsche or Northstar engines are an option.  Other
similar options can include the Rover V8 (Bob Brandys) or the Delorean
AMC Eagle hybrid engine (Marty Maier and others).  These two options
tow the line closer to the european and PRV heritage of the Delorean,
however, I would not refer to any of them as "low cost" options.
Duke's Chevy 4.3L V6 conversion may border on a low cost engine swap,
before you figure in all the development time spent troubleshooting
everything from electrical gremlins to transmission issues. 

I personally have had mostly good experiences with Porsche drivetrains
and I do agree that some bad experiences have been expensive.  I do
think that if someone wanted to keep a somewhat european heritage in
their Delorean, while increasing the performance and HP, the Porsche
drivetrain should be considered.  Of course, I cannot speak to the
durability and yearly maintenance costs of this drivetrain in a "D"
until I complete my conversion and begin using it as a daily driver.
Even Matthew agrees that his 944 has been a durable daily driver.

Later,
Rich W.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Matthew P. Olans" <mpolans_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> IMHO: this is a BAD idea,
>         I have a 1984 944.  The 2.5L inline 4 puts out 150 hp 
reliably.  I
> have a K&N ram-air setup with a slightly bigger throttle body and 
mass air
> flow sensor.  I am seeing 161 hp on the dyno.  It's great in a front
> engine/rear drive 50/50 weight bias car.  Let it be noted that I 
just turned
> 190,000 miles and I still get 33mpg if I am very gentle.  I usually 
like to
> drop the hammer (a 4 cyl. hammer-drop is akin to using the gas pedal 
like an
> on/off switch....:) ) and I see about 24-26 mpg.  Overall it sounds 
great,
> right?
> 
> So here's my two cents on why it's not a good idea for the D:
> Money!  Everyone seems hell-bent on saving by cross-referencing 
parts and
> working new ones into the mix.  Going with a Porsche engine won't 
save you
> any money.  

>snip<

> Matthew
> VIN #10365
> VIN #16816




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:04:10 -0000
From: "paulus260572" <paulus29_at_dml_eurobell.co.uk>
Subject: Struts

hello All.

Can anyone in the uk tell me what other cars has the rear gas struts 
for the D?
The louvre struts?

Cheers Paul.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:43:08 -0000
From: "Paul Salsbury" <paul.salsbury_at_dml_btinternet.com>
Subject: Brake servo

Hi all

Quick question.

Is the a X-ref part for the Vacuum brake servo #105542 not sure if mine is
functioning 100%.

It may just need new seal, how every my local scrappy has 200 cars and if
there is and X-ref I could probably get one for a fiver.

Cheers
Paul
#6463

www.paul.salsbury.btinternet.co.uk




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:33:37 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Emissions Test Exemptions

Not only does testing vary State to State but the way you register the 
vehicle is important. In many states there are special catogories that 
are exempt from testing such as Historic, Collector, or Limited 
Use-Special use. If you can live with the limitations such special 
catogories impose (like a limited # of miles per year) not only are 
you exempt from emissions testing but the insurance is substantaily 
lower. You must contact the Motor Vehicle Agency of the State in which 
you reside and or will register the vehicle in to learn all of the 
options available. Just because a car is over 20 years old doesn't 
automatically exempt it from anything as it is still required to meet 
the emissions and safety tests that were in effect at the time of 
manufacture.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "gr8old1" <Gr8old1_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Watkins Family <watbmv_at_dml_m...> wrote:
> > shoudn't our cars be exempt from emissions testing now that they 
> are 20
> > years old?
> > 
> > Tom Watkins
> > #005732
> > 
> > http://www.geocities.com/outatime81
> 
> That's going to vary from state to state... I know that in CT, 
exempt 
> vehicles are 25 years or older.
> 
> -Jeff Chabotte
> Webmaster: http://www.88-mph.com
> Norwich, CT.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:26:45 -0500
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: What to do?

Interesting, my first question is:  

How would one distinguish if one has a volvo replacement or the original
DMC PRV?  
I also had a wacky vacuum setup, but I attribute that to idiocy, not
necessary a changed engine.... 

Jim 1537


On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:19:37 +0000 Martin Gutkowski
<webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk> writes:
> Wilhelm, you may find some of these links useful for picking "Volvo 
> brains"
> 
> http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/parts2.htm
> 
> I can tell you water pump's different too *grumble*
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Martin
> #1458
> DOC UK
>


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:55:33 -0000
From: "dmcman82" <srubano_at_dml_optonline.com>
Subject: Re: Water pump woes

As I stated in a previous post, I used an Airtex water pump (new) 
and the end casing from my old orignal waterpump fit it perfectly. 
Had no problems. The version water pump was the bolt on pulley 
style. I don't know why your's would not fit the new one.

Steve

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> The end casing from the original pump does not fit the new pump, 
and the 
> Volvo end casing we bought for the new pump has the output port on 
the 
> wrong side - why they made two versions is beyond me - 
operationally 
> it'd be identical.
> 
> The picture was to show that the shape of the casing and how the 
> position of the mounts is wrong.
> 
> I take it you guys've never come across this problem before?
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Martin
> #1458
> 
> Walter Coe wrote:
> 
> >Martin,
> >
> >I'm getting ready to do the same thing you are with your water 
pump.  I've
> >got one of Darryl's pulleys also.  I'm having trouble seeing what 
is wrong
> >by your picture.  I suppose you aren't showing the problem piece 
in the
> >photo.  Anyway, is it possible to reuse the end casing from the 
OEM pump?
> >
> >Walt    Tampa, FL
> >




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:52:31 EST
From: njp548_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Water pump and related

In a message dated 3/13/02 11:45:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, dherv10_at_dml_aol.com 
writes:

<< We also 
 stock and sell P.J. Grady's new billit aluminum pully. >>

How can you stock a part when you don't know who makes it?  The billet 
aluminum bolt-on pulleys are made by Darryl Tinnerstet.  The original 
Specialty Automotive DeLorean parts distributor.  Web address: 
www.delorean-parts.com

Later,
Nick Pitello
1852
15914
<A HREF="Http://members.aol.com/njp548">Http://members.aol.com/njp548</A>



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:01:16 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Struts

Paul, you need to join our mailing list - go to the contents page at www.delorean.co.uk
and click on the link

I think they're ALMOST the same off a ford Escort, but I may be imagining things.

Best Wishes

Martin
#1458
DOC UK

paulus260572 wrote:

> hello All.
>
> Can anyone in the uk tell me what other cars has the rear gas struts
> for the D?
> The louvre struts?
>
> Cheers Paul.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:05:18 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Water pump woes

I may have an answer to this issue. It appears the later version of the B28 engine used
from 1982 onwards in the Volvo 760. This had the altered water pump. We knwo this because
the guy at the parts place I was using went and found the " h " shaped pipe that it hooks
up to, and it was the same as the DeLorean! (is port on the left). This pipe was off a
Volvo 260 circa 1979.

Anyway, it appears the pump from the DeLorean cross-references incorrectly over here to
the later pump with the ouput port on the wrong side

Airtex is an american manufacturer of european parts - we can't get that brand over here.
Ironic really.

Thanks guys

Martin
#1458

dmcman82 wrote:

> As I stated in a previous post, I used an Airtex water pump (new)
> and the end casing from my old orignal waterpump fit it perfectly.
> Had no problems. The version water pump was the bolt on pulley
> style. I don't know why your's would not fit the new one.
>
> Steve




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:20:16 EST
From: Senatorpack_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Porsche engines in a DeLorean...American subculture


Well said Matt. I'm still waiting for someone to install a rear seat, and 
diesel engine.

    The law of diminishing returns...the classic or customized car.  The cost 
to perform a total restoration Vs the cost to swap this and that part, and 
reengineer a car is a tough choice to make. Is either way the correct way? 
Who knows?

Concepts Vs Limitations
    The current "Fast & the Furious" trend or fad, is to create a highly 
individualistic, distinctive car out of a mass marketed, high volume model 
from one of the global manufactures. These car owners strive for perfection.  
These "customizes" are fulfilling their needs, by creating their own personal 
view & belief of what car should or shouldn't be. There are many magazines, 
aftermarket parts companies, fashions, music, movies, books, an entire 
subculture built on customizing cars. (The DeLorean history buffs will 
recognize that history is again repeating itself, as this subculture was his 
inspiration during the 1950s and swinging 1960s)

    When a car is designed the possibilities & concepts are put on paper. 
Various sketches and ideas are conceptualized. However, when the car is 
actually engineered and final decisions are made, the limitations of the car, 
such as top speed, handling, acceleration, braking, etc., etc., come to 
fruition.  Ideas have to wait, concepts put on hold, limits for a myriad of 
reasons are established.

    The difference between the possibilities & concepts of a new car, and the 
actual limitations that technology, money, time, can fulfill brings fourth 
competition.  The competition from other manufactures to produce a car that 
is faster, better handling, has better safety features, etc., etc. Sure the 
engineers that designed the DeLorean wanted the DMC-12 to out pace a 911, out 
handle a Ferrari, have the competitive pedigree of a Mercedes Benz. You know 
the story, Viper Vs Corvette, 911 Vs NSX, etc., etc. 

DeLorean Vs the competition
    The final result of those engineering limitations and concepts is what 
the consumer is going to purchase and enjoy...or purchase and regret. There 
were many that praised the DMC for everything it was, and there were many who 
criticized the car for everything it should have been or criticized it for 
everything it could be. Perfection is and always has been elusive.  
    However, disappointment & dissatisfaction can inspire someone to 
accomplish the unthinkable, the unreachable, or unobtainable.  As the old 
adage "to build a better mouse trap." I guess this is what inspired JZD when 
he created the DMC.
    
    Many competing exotic car manufactures have built or are currently 
offering a better mouse trap, with the luxury, performance, styling, agility, 
pedigree, etc., etc.  In 1981 to purchase a car that was faster, handled 
better, etc., than the DeLorean, you didn't have to look far.  There were 
plenty of cars during the DeLoreans development period that were faster, 
better handling, "burned rubber at every stop light" sounded better, had 
better materials, etc., etc.

    Many buyers looked at a DeLorean, test drove it, decided if it was 
suitable for their needs and made a purchasing decision. If their 
performance, rear seat, or perception needs were not met, they looked at 
different models from different manufactures.  If the buyer wanted a car with 
a rear seat, or a car with a diesel engine, they purchased a car with those 
attributes. Maserati, Ferrari, Porsche, etc., anticipated the demand of the 
market and offered a car less expensive than their flagship models, 
Bora/Merak, Ferrari 308s with Fiberglass bodies, and the less expensive 
Porsche 944.

Rocket Science
    For the money that you would spend after all is said & done, customizing 
and personalizing, you will triple or quadruple the cost of a very nice 
DeLorean...and it is still a DeLorean.
    Yes,...the DeLorean is highly recognizable since it was in Back to the 
Future, however when someone drives "Magnum Pi's car" the same response is 
heard. 
    There are plenty of faster cars, with more pedigree, class, better 
handling, in the $25-$30,000 range such as the NSX, 911, Esprit, Merak or 
Ferrari.
    Besides, those old cars from the 40s, 50s, & 60s that were kept original 
or restored to factory original condition are worth more today that when new. 
 Spend your money wisely, as you can buy another marque that fulfills your 
needs. 

Best Wishes,
Michael




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:03:48 -0000
From: "stevepeck1" <stevepeck1_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Interior Mirrors - - Where the H#_at_dml_?

First, I am no quitter.  When faced with the prospect of say paying 
$200 for a bloody interior mirror, I'll go to great lengths...

I visited a rather complete junkyard, loaded with 80's cars from all 
makes.  There are simply NO mirrors like the DMC's.  I found that an 
early 80's BMW 320i and an 86? Toyota Cressida mirrors are almost 
exactly the same dimensions and have the pivot-ball back, but I 
learned that if you press too hard on the back of the mirror to get 
the DMC's mounting ball into it, you end up with 7 (14) years bad 
luck.  

With that unfortunate prospect in my future, I bow humbly to you 
there and ask who has a decent used mirror for sale?

Martin, our resident Brit says that there are plenty in England, but 
sadly I am in Charleston, SC...  Send me a dozen, buddy and I'll make 
us some real loot selling them for Half what others sell them for...

Seriously, ideas anyone?

-Steve #3302




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:14:17 EST
From: Delorean17_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Axle thunking-FIXED

Hello,
    I brought my axles to a CV/axle specialty shop as I don't know what I am 
doing half the time.  The shop has worked on DeLorean axles before so I 
trusted him.
    When I removed the axles both of the inner CV's slid right off of the 
axle...not good.  I let him go at the axles and it turns out that the clips 
that hold the CV joints to the axles slid off.  He said that the groove the 
clips sit in were not deep enough and was probably a defect from the factory. 
 He put in a deeper groove and a small weld to make sure it wouldn't happen 
again.  I told him to go ahead and rebuild them as long as they were off. 
($225 with new boots while I waited:))
    I put them back on the car and no thunking at all!!!!  I was always 
paranoid about that sound...If any of you have a clunking coming from the 
rear of the car that you can't figure out this may be a possibility.  My car 
only has 20k orig. miles and it happened to me.

Thank you all
David,
I will be gone the next 12 days so e-mail me when I return if you have any que
stions.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:35:27 -0000
From: "dherv10" <dherv10_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Water pump and related

Nick, 
Naturally I don't stock the Volvo 4 bolt pully. I don't have to 
because I stock and sell Rob's aluminum pulley which is press on if I 
need to. There are and I have plenty of Delorean water pumps at a 
reasonable price and I can normally take off the old pulley and put 
it on the new or rebuilt pump.  I have also turned the factory 
original pully in heavier steel that you can press on at home with 
out special equiptment. It's easy. There wasn't just that much 
demand.I think the volvo pulley he is turning is a good looking pully 
if you want to convert over to a non original set up. Your choice. 
Sorry if I gave you or anyone the wrong impression. 
John hervey



  --- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., njp548_at_dml_a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/13/02 11:45:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
dherv10_at_dml_a... 
> writes:
> 
> << We also 
>  stock and sell P.J. Grady's new billit aluminum pully. >>
> 
> How can you stock a part when you don't know who makes it?  The 
billet 
> aluminum bolt-on pulleys are made by Darryl Tinnerstet.  



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:44:52 -0800
From: "Adam Price" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Over heat protector questions.


I am trying to make my own overheat protector and I was just wondering if 
copper is okay to use? All I can find are copper fittings, so will the 
copper react with the aluminum or the antifreeze in a harmful way?
What type of fittings are sold with the overheat protector kits?

Thanks,
Adam

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:05:04 EST
From: dherv10_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Water pump woes

Martin, Yes, I have come accross three different pumps that will fit the 
Delorean. it's all about knowing which one will work. Most over the counter 
people don't know. Even Volvo, will and can give you different pumps if you 
don't know the right one to ask for and Volvo is going up on the price all 
the time on them.
John hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/engine.shtml



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:51:57 -0800
From: "Darryl Tinnerstet" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>
Subject: RE: water pump woes

Martin - The pump you got is obviously not the correct one.  You will also note that the two hose outlets that lead to the heads are not in a straight line as on the old one.  The Volvo-style pumps I have used with my bolt-on pulleys are BAP-Geon #28-09307; Beck/Arnley #131-1851; and CSK #55-9146.  They include the rear cover gasket but not the cover.  All are readily available on this side of the pond.  I could ship you one if necessary, but probably not in time for this weekend.  Please advise if interested.

Darryl Tinnerstet
Specialty Automotive
McCleary, WA
www.delorean-parts.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:06:06 -0000
From: "stevepeck1" <stevepeck1_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Headlight switch, Exterior mirror switch fixes.

This list has givem me THOUSANDS of dollars of great advice in the 
four weeks I have owned my DMC.  I'd like to throw a little back, for 
what this may be worth to you.  Fair warning:  I make up words where 
I don't know their names...

My Headlight switch was misbehaving.  It took some 6-8 pokes to 
finally engage.  As a fix, I took the switch apart (very simple) 
Cleaned and tightened the electrical connections and added 
a "friction strip" between the black casing and the steel "click 
controller" bar.  

The bar it turned out was flopping around and dropping out of its 
channel.

The friction strip I used was simply a 1" by 3/8" stip of stiff paper 
folded in thirds.

Switch works like new.  Maybe better.  good luck with yours.

My Exterior Mirror switch was also misbehaving. 

The fix for it it turned out was to straighten the metal parts that 
were a bit bent.  

The control "joystick" pulls off with a good yank, and the casing 
opens by cutting off the plastic melt-downs with a razor blade.  Pull 
the switch apart, being careful not to let springs and ball bearings 
fly everywhere.  You should not need to adjust anything on the 
joystick side at all.  Just put back the bearings onto the springs 
and back onto the "quattropus" and set it aside.  The three dumbell-
looking parts go onto springs on the switch.  I found that a dab of 
grease also acts like glue to hold lightweight things where they 
belong.  

Clean the contact surfaces of everything with dull sandpaper,steel 
wool or a pencil eraser!  The "disk" is the critical component.  Mine 
was bent in several ways.  You will want to straighten things so that 
everything is parallel.  You'll understand once you're in there.

Assembly is simple.  You will need to re-seal the casing by using a 
electronics-type soldering iron.  If you use a plumbing-type one 
you'll melt everything!  Just touch it to each of the places where 
you sliced off the plastic "melt-downs" and you can also "weld" the 
back to the casing by sliding the soldering iron along the seam.  
Works like new...

My dash dimmer switch was also not working.  Disassembly and a dab of 
epoxy and solder and it now works OK...  Not perfect...

Good luck

-Steve #3302




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/