From: <>
To: <>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 954
Date: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:39 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:

To search the archives or view files, log in at

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: "ksgrimsr" <>

2. Huntington Beach Concours

3. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <>

4. won't shut off!!!! anyone know what's hapening??
From: "Casey Putsch" <>

5. Back to the Future DVD trailer now online
From: "bttfcom" <>

6. Re: A/C cycling switch
From: "Walter Coe" <>

7. Schematic for fan/relay

8. DeLorean Car Show Registrations

9. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

10. Re: Shock dangers?
From: "DMC Joe" <>

11. Re: I'm Back!
From: "DMC Joe" <>

12. Re: poor acceleration... maybe she's just sleepy.. fuel and etc.
From: "DMC Joe" <>

13. Looking for a DL -- SF Bay Area
From: "techceo" <>

14. 1981s
From: "techceo" <>

15. Re: Schematic for fan/relay

16. Yet another attempt at gullwings....
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>

17. Re: won't shut off!!!! anyone know what's hapening??

18. Re: A/C cycling switch

19. Re: Making a Automatic in to a 5-speed.
From: "theshovel1224" <>

20. Re: DeLorean Car Show

21. Re: windows

22. Re: Re: windows
From: Robert Brandys <>

23. Re: Looking for a DL -- SF Bay Area

24. Courtesy light puzzle
From: "graves_14" <>

25. Re: won't shut off!!!! anyone know what's hapening??
From: "DMC Joe" <>

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:46:55 -0000
From: "ksgrimsr" <>
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Senatorpack_at_dml_c... wrote:
> Well said Marc. 
> I would like the judges to list their credentials and their 
specific training 
> on what exactly adheres to the engineers & designers blah, blah, 
>  Marc and I both know of an original 1983 owner and his exceptional 
> condition car. The judges didn't convey the confidence in their 
> ability and specifically their knowledge of what was in a 1983 in a 
> VIN range. This has caused me to be apprehensive bringing a 1983 
> car to a concourse event.
> Best Wishes,
> Michael

I don't speak for DMC regarding the Millenium Concours, but I have 
had the opportunity to participate as a judge several times and can 
certainly speak for myself based on those experiences.

The credientials that I have to participate as a judge are quite 
1) Ability to read and comprehend the provided judging manual
2) Willingness to review and study the assigned section of the manual 
in preparation for judging
3) Willingness to burn the better part of a day during the event 
doing the meticulous judging (it usually takes me 30 minutes to judge 
one category on one car, so for 8 entrants it would take me 
approximately 4 hours to complete)
4) Ability to impartially apply the judging criteria

I believe that all judges at all previous Millenium Concours events 
have met all of the above qualifications.

In return for the volunteer efforts and time spent, the rewards 
judges reap include the spite of folks like Michael that have not 
even participated in the event. To offset these rewards, the folks at 
DMC are extremely generous to the volunteer judges (see my judging 
report posted to the list following the last Millenium Concours at 
the DMC open house). The DMC folks make the judging experience a 
rewarding and exciting one and I would encourage anyone that is 
interested in doing some judging to jump at the opportunity if it 
presents itself.

I know that the judging criteria outlined in the handbook (it's 
downloadable using the link James provided) have been painstakingly 
researched and that the items in the manual are based on DMC 
documents that have been recovered from the archives as well as other 
supporting data. If you are aware of discrepancies in the handbook, I 
would suggest that a constructive approach would be to help expose 
the new documents and supporting data that would allow the handbook 
to be updated and corrected. Your vauge assertions of impropriety and 
ineptitude in the judging process is baseless and wholly 



Message: 2
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:00:53 GMT
Subject: Huntington Beach Concours

Due to the recent talk of the Concours at Ken;s event, I thought it might be a good time to mention that there is a Concours in Huntington Beach. Dorothy Gates has managed to get a DeLorean Class, for both concours and street driven classes. We need 12 cars to secure the class, and we currently have somewhere around 6 cars I believe. It is the first sunday in June (I think, I am not near my application at the moment). If any one is interested please feel free to write to either Dorothy Gates ( or myself. 

Trevor Johnson


Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:34:46 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <>
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

This is an open letter to other Technical Editors and the general 
membership of the DML.
DMC Houston doesn't need to be the final and ultimate authority on the 
judging rules. As owners and "keepers of the Marque" we all have a 
stake in how the rules are created, interpeted, and applied. Everyone 
should get a copy of the judging manual and if there are any comments, 
suggestions, corrections, etc WE need to make it happen. In most other 
car clubs the general membership through various committes arbitrate 
and interpet the rules for their Marque. I am proposing that we of the 
Deloreans  do the same. The situation for the 83's is ambiguous to say 
the least and could use a lot of clarifacation. In many other Marques 
some changes relating to safety do not carry any penalties. Although 
DMC Houston has done a great job for NO COMPENSATION short of the 
parts business that the concours generates we as the owners should 
have some participation in the proccess and the selection of judges. 
Past winners of a concours could make some of the best judges and 
since they are inelegable to compete for some time they are impartial 
and highly knowledgable. If you agree with me and would like to do 
something about it E-mail me directly. Of course this is MHO. In many 
other car clubs to get into the "concours" you need to win some local 
events so as to weed out the true concours from the drivers. This 
could inspire more local judging events. In the end judging by a 
comprehensive and standard set of rules will elevate the Deloreans to 
a higher level of value which is good for everybody.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:09:35 -0500
From: "Casey Putsch" <>
Subject: won't shut off!!!! anyone know what's hapening??

I have had this problem twice randomly. When I turn off the car and take out 
the key, it is still running and I had to stall it to shut it off. Have any 
of you had this problem, could the key switch be sticking? Please help if 
you have a clue.

Sincerely, Casey at


Message: 5
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:15:42 -0000
From: "bttfcom" <>
Subject: Back to the Future DVD trailer now online

For those who are interested, the new DVD teaser trailer from 
Universal Studios has now been posted on their official website 
( and prominently features the DeLorean 
time machine.  This is the same trailer that we premiered last month 
in Orlando at our BTTF Collector's Exhibit.

Stephen Clark


Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:02:45 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <>
Subject: Re: A/C cycling switch


I checked out the technical article you referred to,
and I think the author made some mistakes.  I suggest to the list moderators
that the article be corrected.

I understand that the a/c compressor cycle time is supposed to be
approximately 7 seconds any time the engine RPM is well above idle.  When
the author says that his manual recommends a cycling time of 45 to 90
seconds, I don't think he is referring to any of the three original DeLorean
manuals.  He also says to adjust the pressure switch according to what is
recommended in the DeLorean manual.  Again, I don't see where the manual
says a thing about adjusting this switch.  The author doesn't mention this,
but the switch should not be tweaked unless you are absolutely sure that
your system has the correct pressures.

To contradict some of this, I have read DML posts from one guy who had
compressor cycle times of more than 40 seconds (I don't remember exactly)
but I think he was dealing with an R-134a conversion and not the OEM R-12.

Remember that observing the radiator fans is not a good indication of what
the a/c compressor is doing because the otterstat will switch the fans on
when the engine is warm enough.  If you have a FanZilla installed, this will
further complicate things because the fans are now switched sequentially
with delay circuits.

One important point that the author did get right is to watch the polarity
on the circuit breakers.  They are designed to have current travel through
them in only one direction.  The markings are small and easy to overlook
since the breakers otherwise appear to be non-polarized.

Walt    Tampa, FL


Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:04:02 EST
Subject: Schematic for fan/relay

I am looking to have my mechanic replace my water pump and set the fan to cycle instead of staying on constantly.  Which DeLorean manual should I get for him to have if he is going to be checking and dealing with the fan relay?  I would rather him do this properly instead of messing around and doing something else to give me headaches in the future.

Thanks for any advice,



Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:51:51 EST
Subject: DeLorean Car Show Registrations

There have been two instances where I did not recieve registrations in the 
mail because the address on the envelope was incorrect or illegible.  
Fortunately there are not a lot of DeLorean Car Shows around and our post 
office is small enough they figured it out and held them for us to pick up 
since they cannot deliver these items.  We picked them up today.

Please print or write the address clearly 
we want to make sure everyone is registered.

If you have registered and had an e-mail address I will be sending a bulk 
e-mail confirming I have your registration.  You also will have your canceled 

Sorry for the post we all get enough e-mail but I just want to be sure I get 
all the registrations



Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:57:34 EST
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

First let me say thank you to all the past judges in this class. Your job is 
a long one with little or no recognition. The idea that judges are bias is to 
put it mildly BULL. I saw at the Cleveland show how hard this job really is. 
In many cases it came down to one or less points between first and second 
place on the overall score. DMC Houston has done a great job in putting a 
manual together so all that want to compete know what they have to be ready 
for. As a way of obtaining a better idea of what is involved in the judging 
process, I suggest that anyone stand back and watch a set of judges go over a 
car. I promise you very little is missed. Ken as usual has done his "above 
and beyond" in making this show one that all will enjoy and will remember for 
a lifetime. While I for one encourage input in how the cars are judged, I 
feel we as members must realize that not everyone will be happy with the 
results. If anyone has constructive input (yes, I do count David T. among 
these) then I'm sure James at DMC Houston will be very open to suggestions. 
I'm sorry that I will have to miss the show in Memphis but I have my comp 
finals the next weekend. So remember we are all owners of these cars because 
we love them, the judges are themselves owners and from what I have seen are 
very knowledgeable on the correctness of our rides. If someone has a large 
problem with the judging, then come and see what they go thru, would you want 
their job???

Bruce Battles
Vin# 06569


Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:52:34 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: Shock dangers?


The PJ Grady High Performance Suspension Kit is one of the single best
upgrades that can be added to a DeLorean. Early last year after installing
the first set in a customers DeLorean,  I took the car out for a road test
and was amazed at the difference in ride quality. It was like driving a new
car right off the showroom floor. If you know a DeLorean owner who has
installed this upgrade ask them to take you for ride.

Concerning your situation in New Orleans, which is one of my favorite places
in the world, I would encourage you to purchase the upgrade. Weather you
purchase the kit from me or Rob you will be happy you made the investment.
The new suspension kit will take your mind off the rough roads and allow you
to enjoy the beautiful scenery.

DMC Joe/Help Club
Information & Store
DeLorean Website Directory


Message: 11
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:10:54 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: I'm Back!

You asked:
      How about the telephone tech service you provide during DeLorean
      normal business hours?  Will this continue for non-members or will we
have to
      become members to enjoy this great help?"

Thanks for your question. Obviously club members will always have enhanced
services but the DeLorean Services Technical Support Line and e-mail, which
as everyone knows is monitored by yours truly, will remain open and
available during normal business hours as before to all DeLorean owners and
service providers.

DMC Joe/Help Club
Information & Store
DeLorean Website Directory


Message: 12
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:17:31 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: poor acceleration... maybe she's just sleepy.. fuel and etc.

You said:
        "the fuse box is melting (or once did melt a bit) around the fuse
pump fuse, ..."

I would suggest the first thing to do is replace the fuel pump fuse holder
with a heavy duty in-line replacement. The melting condition you have
described is very common and is a ticking time bomb. An overheated #7 fuse
holder will usually fail when the pump is running continuously for a period
of time this could mean when your on the expressway in the fast lane.

If your hesitation problem still exists after the fuse replacement your
problem is probably related to the fuel acceleration (enrichment) circuit.

DeLorean Help


Message: 13
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:08:42 -0000
From: "techceo" <>
Subject: Looking for a DL -- SF Bay Area


I'm looking to buy a De Lorean in the San Francisco Bay Area.  Must 
have reasonably low miles (under 50k-ish).  MUST be mechanically 
sound (I will be driving it regularly)--more important than 

Any leads or info would be appreciated.



Message: 14
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:17:35 -0000
From: "techceo" <>
Subject: 1981s


I'm hoping someone can offer some good advice to a long-time DL fan, 
but without much experience actually working with/on the cars.

I've found a 1981 (August VIN) in San Francisco that has particular 
quirks I've been concerned about.  It's going for $14,000.

I have several related questions I'm hoping some of you might be kind 
enough to advice on :)

1 -- Blue Book does not include De Loreans, let alone vehicles from 
before 1984.  So how do you go about determining the value of a De 
Lorean?  I suppose you can use the fact that a brand new DMC-
refurbished model will go for ~$30k as a benchmark, but what kind of 
guidelines can I follow to assess whether or not this one is worth 

2 -- It needs a new windshield (the current one is cracked), that's 
easy enough.  It has starter problems... I'm thinking it might be the 
viper alarm system in the car (I read that somewhere), but even more 
worried it could be a larger mechnical or electrical problem, 
particularly since the door ajar and seatbelt lights don't always go 
out either.  (Though the door one might be caused by a loose part in 
the frame where the door connects with the car.  Any suggestions?

3 -- Are there mechanics in the SF Bay Area that will actually work 
on a DL (and are competent enough to do so), or will I end up having 
to haul down to Garden Grove and visit the delorean center down there 
whenever I need repairs?

4 -- The one I'm looking at is an automatic...I've heard the 1981 
autos. had some major problems.  Is this true?

5 -- WHy is the sky blue? :)  Sorry for all the questions--I'm not 
entirely sure of what I'm doing (in case it wasn't obvious!), and am 
hoping a few of you can offer some advice.

Thank you kindly...hopefully soon I'll be able to offer some advice 
in return to the list :)



Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:19:30 EST
Subject: Re: Schematic for fan/relay

Richard, If you will have your mechanic call me, I will walk him through what 
he needs to do. I do this all the time for shops that only see Deloreans 
occasionally. I do offer the parts as well as the tech help. If he is going 
to replace the water pump he may also need o rings and other gaskets. 
depending on how he is going to do it. The numbers are on the web site along 
with the diagrams and other information as well.
John Hervey


Message: 16
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:27:05 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: Yet another attempt at gullwings....

Looks like the Elise is next in line to recieve gullwing doors. At 
the bottom of the page below is a link to show a simulation of 
the doors themselves.

Although on a personal note, this has to be the worst design I've 
ever seen for a car. There is more functionality, and a better 
visualy appealing design on the Bradley GT. This just looks to 
me like someone slapped a couple of door struts onto a T-top. 
Not much to speak of for the kind of engineering they're boasting 
about that the doors took to create...

vin 6585 "X"


Message: 17
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:39:00 EST
Subject: Re: won't shut off!!!! anyone know what's hapening??

Casey, The main relay may stick every now and then and cause this to happen. 
It's done it with me twice in 5 years. Turn the key on again and then off 
again and it may go away.


Message: 18
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:34:30 EST
Subject: Re: A/C cycling switch

Mike, I go through this a lot trying to explain:
How the cooling fans cycle with the AC on 
How the cooling fans cycle without the AC on. 
How the weather affects the cycling
How the blower speed affect the cycling
How the sensitivity of the otterstat
How the circuit breaker reacts. 
How the low and high pressure switches affect the cycling
How the Freon level affects the cycling
It would be a rather long post on the DML if they don't mind and maybe 
other's will benefit from it also. I have also thought about writing it and 
sending it out with parts in the circuit as people buy them. 
But, In a nut shell: The circuit breaker is a big culprit. With the New Fan 
Fix Dual 2 X 2. I eliminated the CB in the wiring and my fans cycle very 
little as long as the freon level is ok. With the Dual 2 X 2 you can tell if 
your low on freon.. Most of the time I can drive in 80 to 90 degree weather 
and the fans never come on. Then when I turn on the air, I can effect the 
cycle time by how fast the blower motor is turning in relationship to the 
temperature outside.
It all works like a clock.    
John Hervey


Message: 19
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:56:15 -0000
From: "theshovel1224" <>
Subject: Re: Making a Automatic in to a 5-speed.

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> We all know the frames are not the same, but has anyone installed a 5 speed in a automatic frame?  I suspect this is more difficult than the other way around, but have been told it is possible.
> If you have done this, can you discuss the details of the conversion?
> Thanks


Message: 20
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:00:58 EST
Subject: Re: DeLorean Car Show

This subject comes up every time so Its appropriate I think at this time for 
me to comment on the Judging at the DeLorean Car Show

This time again we have the two ISCA judges we have used before.  They really 
have a handle on our cars now and the daily driver catagories have had some 
modifications as to what and how they judge the cars and that is posted on my 
web page <A HREF=""></A>.  

The Concourse event is different.

I chose to use DMC Millenium concourse after I did my own at Cincinnati.  
After being in many major events like ISCA shows where my car is judged 
against others in my class and listening to the judges I felt the Millenium 
judging was the fairest.  It is judged by our piers mainly members of the 
DML.  These are all people that "WANT" to be a part of the event and about as 
neutral bunch that I have ever seen.   It also allows the financial burden 
for the Concourse to be shifted to DMC Houston and they choose the prizes and 
have developed the handbook.   This handbook is a guide that says that this 
is what they are going to look for.  It is the most complete book I have seen 
on the DeLorean so far.  
Will it be revised?

I am sure as they learn more about the dates changes were made to the car as 
documention is found or the number of cars found with a particular change 
they will adjust the rules accordingly.  Most of the guidelines are easy to 
understand and follow.  It is an excellent book and I have been very pleased 
with the judging at The DeLorean Car Show.  

Whenever something is judged it will always be subjective to a degree.  What 
we are developing now is a standard that will lock in those criteria and in a 
few years we will be able to say this is it. 

And I think the current version is very close.

I hope we see a lot of concourse cars in the future 
at least we have a target to shoot for.

Knut is right when he says he spends a half hour per car 
I wish he didn't at the St Louis show 
maybe he wouldn't have found so many things on my car LOL
But the judges do care and they do their best and I think we have a good crew
My thanks to them and everyone who volunteers their time to the DeLorean 
cause making these the best events they can be.

What I like is that the cars are not judged by one group or company that 
could be biased because someone is a customer or friend.
I know all of the judges and DMC Houston and if anything they were harder on 
me than anyone else.  Just as in a court we are being judged by our piers and 
we all have chosen the DML as our means of communicating.  These are the 
people judging the concourse.

If you don't have a concourse car then this article is either boring or 

There is alway room to improve 
criticism and praise will always follow 
but the determination and commitment is what counts 

See you all in Memphis

We have well over 200 event registrations so far. Well over Cincinnati and 
closing in on Cleveland.

As far as stats
we added Iowa and a few other states along with more of our England 

Surprisingly the Illinois group is leading the way.  They already have more 
coming than were in Cleveland.

Mid Atlantic Group Eastern Regional DeLorean Run 12 where are you??????? 
Third in the group registrations so far, (Cleveland is second, Europe is 4th)

Without saying I have put a lot of time into this show and I think it will 
Hope you all enjoy 
There are many more children (early teens)coming to this event than the last 
two so it is becoming more of a family event.

Does anyone know where 2004 is going to be held????????

Curtis called the other day and says he has made some more changes to his 
Can't wait to see them.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 21
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:05:39 EST
Subject: Re: windows

In a message dated 3/21/02 9:02:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

> I hate to run the air every time it 
> gets near 70 degrees. A larger window opening would be great to get 
> the heat out.  Ed

I read awhile back that the little bit of energy you save from not running 
the a/c is pretty much offset but the increased drag from the windows being 
open.  (Not a DeLorean-specific article, but I imagine the same applies.)  
Redoing the windows is difficult and expensive.  Not like you can get windows 
off a junkyard car and just pop 'em in there.  Cheaper to fix an a/c system, 
if that's an issue...
Wayne A. Ernst
DMCTech Group
vin 11174

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 22
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:06:15 -0600
From: Robert Brandys <>
Subject: Re: Re: windows

The studies on the increased drag from open windows only showed a slight 
increase in the coefficient of drag for a vehicle.  THis will effect 
fuel economy less than 1%.  However, AC can affect fuel economy and 
power up to 10%.

The main enjoyment of real windows is you can cruse in your car and wave 
and talk to people just like other classic cars.  You can go thru a 
drive through and get your food without opening a door.  You can also 
drive with the window down and enjoy the fresh air.

As for the cost. The main reason it is so expensive is because the parts 
are custom made. If enough people wanted do this, the cost would drop 
significiantly.  Probably to as around $1000 per door.

It seems like a lot of money but driving a D with real windows is a 
totally different  car.



Message: 23
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:34:12 EST
Subject: Re: Looking for a DL -- SF Bay Area

Have you tried the San Fran papers?  I occasionally found Deloreans
for sale in those back when I was still just an enthusiast.  I bought
my DeLorean in the city about a year and a half ago, but it 
was advertised on dmcnews. 

Good should find something after not too long,



Message: 24
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 05:32:54 -0000
From: "graves_14" <>
Subject: Courtesy light puzzle

I did my homework and poked through the archives first, but no luck. 
I need some advice on my lighting situation. My front and rear 
interior white lights (aka courtesy lights) do not come on. The door 
lights do come on when the doors are open (and go off when closed). 
The courtesy lights do go on if I manually flip them to the always on 

I pulled the white relay, but that didn't do a thing. I'm not sure 
where to start my hunt for an explanation.

Thanks for your help.


p.s. So far my lowered PJ springs and new shocks look great! I needed 
to get a new steering rack too... they must love me over there now ;-
) I have yet to really take the car out for a spin though, so I'll 
let you know how it handles.


Message: 25
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:05:32 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <>
Subject: Re: won't shut off!!!! anyone know what's hapening??


When you stall the engine to shut the car down do the dash warning lights
turn off or do they remain on as if the key was in the "on" position?

DMC Joe/Help Club
Information & Store
DeLorean Website Directory


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to