From: <>
To: <>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 957
Date: Monday, March 25, 2002 8:06 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:

To search the archives or view files, log in at

There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Another DeLorean in a Movie
From: "shainbrannan" <>

2. No parking brake
From: "Payne" <>

3. Re: Yet another attempt at gullwings....
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>

4. Power antenna woes

5. Concours Judging (response to David T.) *LONG*
From: "jv_espey" <>

6. RE: Re: Yet another attempt at gullwings....
From: "Mike Griese" <>

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:24:31 -0000
From: "shainbrannan" <>
Subject: Another DeLorean in a Movie

Hello Everyone,

Just thought some movie buffs would like to know that i have found 
another DeLorean in a movie.  Suprised no one saw this (or ever 
posted that they did).  In the movie The Manhattan project there is a 
DeLorean in front of the main chacters house.  Clearly seen in a the 
begining of the movie when they roll the credits.

- Shain


Message: 2
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:11:25 -0800
From: "Payne" <>
Subject: No parking brake

Ever since I've had my car, the parking brake never worked very well.  Sure
it would hold, but I really had to yank it hard.  When I had the rear brakes
done, I found out why.  One of the pads for the parking brake was missing.
I ordered a new set and had them installed, but since then the brake won't
hold at all.  The technician said that they are definetely gripping the
rotor and the brake handle feels very firm, but for some reason they just
won't hold the car.  I can pull the handle up as hard as I can yet I can
still get out and push the car with one hand.

The technician and I are both puzzled.  He said he couldn't adjust the
parking brake anymore or it woudl be dragging on the rotor all the time.  Is
there anything I am overlooking?

Thanks for your help!  I miss my parking brake, even though I hate that
rubber cover.



Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 07:25:13 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: Re: Yet another attempt at gullwings....

According to the article, it's a design that should make ingress, 
and egress of the vehicle much easier. Not exactly a new 
concept since it is something that the DeLorean owners have 
known for the past 21 years now... Another "feature" is that the 
tops are removable for storage in the trunk. If it looks like a duck, 
or in this case T-tops, it is.

From a functional POV, it isn't a great design. The Bricklin doors 
are automatic, and the DeLorean doors have straps & handles 
to grip to close the door, but are mounted low enough to be 
within reach of the passenger. And when closed, the straps are 
not visible. These doors have neither feature, nor could they 
feasably have them. I'm not a betting man, but I'd say that the first 
complaint from owners will be pinching their fingers on the front 
portion of the glass when attempting to close the roof. 

Weather sealing is going to be another big problem. The hinges 
are exposed, wich means that the bolts holing them in are going 
to be MUCH more prone to rust. And the door sills would also 
need to be redesigned to accomodate the higher flow of water. 
Depending upon the size of the roof lip, and the location of the 
inner door seal, pressure washing is going to be out of the 
question. And depending upon the placement of the rubber 
seals, wind noise may become a problem.

Another thing to note would be the front glass. Since there is no 
"spider cage" to give extra support, there may be a problem with 
the windshields cracking. (this isn't a dig at anyone, just an 
observation from an engineering standpoint). If a person had 
difficulty getting in and out of the car, it can be assumed that they 
would have a larger build than the normal person, and thus 
weigh more. If they have a difficult time getting out, they may grab 
onto the corner of the windshield to pull themselves up. Without 
any reinforcements in the underbody, this could be a definate 
danger of cracking the windsheild glass. This I know because 
people who have gotten into my car, and are not used to t have 
grabbed this very same spot. I always tell them not too.

It just goes to show you that no matter how hard other car 
companies try, they can't match the DeLorean!

vin 6585 "X"


Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:58:21 EST
Subject: Power antenna woes

Ok, just noticed that my antenna no longer goes up.  The motor is cracking 
but sounds different, but the antenna goes nowhere.  What does this mean?  Is 
this something I can fix, and more importantly, how do you get to the antenna 
motor?  Do you have to remove that whole engine bay panel to get to it?  I 
believe this was covered in the past on the list so if necessary, please 
respond privately.  Thank you for any help!



Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:30:15 -0000
From: "jv_espey" <>
Subject: Concours Judging (response to David T.) *LONG*

David -

Now that I am back in Houston on a full-time basis, it's my intent to devote 
more time to the concours rules and judging. Here are my thoughts after 
reading your recent posting to the DML.

> This is an open letter to other Technical Editors and the general 
> membership of the DML.

Just to satisfy my own desire to completely understand your posting - who are 
the other technical editors, and what is the criteria used to differentiate a 
technical editor from a general member? Who set up this criteria and dictates 
who is and who is not a technical editor? This term used in relationship to 
participants of the DML is new to me, and I'm sorry if I have missed something 
on this earlier.

> DMC Houston doesn't need to be the final and ultimate authority on the 
> judging rules. As owners and "keepers of the Marque" we all have a 
> stake in how the rules are created, interpeted, and applied. Everyone 

We took the 'horse by the reins' regarding the concours when DeLorean One 
and the DOA were willing to let it die. DeLorean Motor Company does have 
an interest in seeing the car progress into more of a 'classic' car - and a 
concours is one of several ways that can be achieved. There are some who 
would say that the car is already a 'classic' or will get there on it's own 
eventually. Rather than let it runs it's own course, we took a proactive role. 

Personally, I take exception to your statement the owners "have a stake in 
how the rules are created, interpreted, and applied". I would agree with you if 
this statement were not so broadly applied - those owners that prefer to make 
radical appearance, structural and other changes to the car are probably not 
the best people to have a hand in this.

> should get a copy of the judging manual and if there are any comments, 
> suggestions, corrections, etc WE need to make it happen. In most other 

As you know, the Judging Manual as it currently exists was created from the 
'best known available data'. This data is available at every event for review by 
competitors, judges and observers alike. I am always searching for new 
material to clarify and further refine the manual - this is being written as I fly to 
Cleveland to view the Crawford Museum's extensive library of DeLorean 
historical data donated by Consolidated International in the early 80's. 
Additionally, as the warehouse move has been completed, I now have instant 
access to all the materials there, including a complete set of engineering 
drawings for the car, and perhaps more importantly in regard to concours, a 
copy of the ECA (Engineering Change Authority) documents (over 4,000). 
Many of this indicate introduction points in the production line.

Which brings up, again, the issue of the basis on which the cars are judged. 
We all know that the QAC's introduced many variables into the cars prior to 
delivery to dealers. To date, there have been no records of what changes 
were applied to various VIN's at the QAC's. In the absence of that data, we 
can reliably use only the data from the factory. A good example of this, which 
has been incorporated into the judging process concerns the alternators. 
Every document discovered to date, save one, said the Motorola alternator 
was introduced at VIN 4540. We discovered a DeLorean Motor Company 
Internal Service Bulletin which indicates that some post-4540 VIN's were 
indeed released from the factory with the Ducellier alternator. The total 
number of cars affected was less than 20, but at least one of those cars is a 
concours quality car belonging to a DML'er. So, in summation, when the data 
surfaces to merit a change in the rules as they currently exist, changes are 
made. But to arbitrarily change the rules without that data defeats the purpose.

> car clubs the general membership through various committes arbitrate 
> and interpet the rules for their Marque. I am proposing that we of the 
> Deloreans  do the same. The situation for the 83's is ambiguous to say 
> the least and could use a lot of clarifacation. In many other Marques 

Sadly, the DML is not a club. Years ago it was my intent to evolve the DML 
into a club, providing an alternative to the club(s) that were then in existence. 
In the absence of any formal 'body', the risk is great of individuals making the 
rules to suit their own objectives and motives.

The objective of DeLorean Motor Company in creating a more extensive and 
structured concours (as opposed to the old concours managed by the DOA, 
and which Millennium was based upon) is, as you yourself said, "to elevate 
the Deloreans to a higher level of value". The only other thing I would add to 
that is "respect in the collector car community" as well as an elevated public 
image - separating the CAR from the MOVIE (people don't look at Tucker and 
refer to it as a movie car, for example). Separating the CAR from the stigma 
related to the demise of the company, and setting the story straight would also 
be secondary goals of a successful concours program.

It has been discussed slowly spinning off the Millennium Concours to an 
independent body of owner/enthusiasts, but the recent spiteful remarks and 
negative attitudes only go to show that the time is not right to do that yet.

> some changes relating to safety do not carry any penalties. Although 

This has been an area that has been brought up repeatedly, and I'm pleased 
to say that changes in that area will be in place for the Memphis event.

> DMC Houston has done a great job for NO COMPENSATION short of the 
> parts business that the concours generates we as the owners should 

That's a good point - DeLorean Motor Company produced (and continuously 
maintains) the concours as it currently exists for ZERO compensation. In time 
and money expended to put on each concours, it's around a couple thousand 
dollars. Considering the number of competitors in the last two or three events, 
the return on investment in the form of parts sales has been negligible. Factor 
in that ALL the vendors (including individuals like DMC Joe, John Hervey and 
Darryl Tinnerstet to name a few) have and sell original parts, our prospects for 
a return are even less enticing.

> have some participation in the proccess and the selection of judges. 

Attracting judges for a concours until DeLorean Motor Company started 
managing the event was never an easy task. In order to attract judges for the 
events, we sought out a group of individuals that were widely viewed as 
unbiased and knowledgeable. DeLorean Motor Company has tried to make 
judging attractive by offering perks in the form of a hosted judges breakfast 
before the event, apparel, parts discounts and at one event, even paying for 
the hotel rooms of the judges. 

As a courtesy to the judges, DeLorean Motor Company has extended the 
invitation to judge future events to experienced judges who are familiar with 
the manual and judging procedures. In two of the last four events, we had a 
complete slate of returning judges. In the other two events, new judges were 
used, and they volunteered, answering an email posted to the DML calling for 
judges. The event in Memphis will have at least one 'newbie' judge, and I am 
pleased that a member of DeLorean Owners Club of the UK will be attending 
Ken's show and returning as a judge.

> Past winners of a concours could make some of the best judges and 
> since they are inelegable to compete for some time they are impartial 
> and highly knowledgable. If you agree with me and would like to do 

That's a interesting idea, David. If any of the past concours winners would be 
interested in judging, I will make a special effort to find a place for them to 
judge in Memphis.

> something about it E-mail me directly. Of course this is MHO. In many 
> other car clubs to get into the "concours" you need to win some local 
> events so as to weed out the true concours from the drivers. This 
> could inspire more local judging events. In the end judging by a 

That is one of the features of the Millennium already in place. Any judge who 
has judged at least four of the six different categories is eligible to serve as a 
'Head Judge" at ANY local or national event. Without my notes in front of me, 
there are at least two or three judges that are eligible to act in that role, should 
they desire (Marty Maier and Ken Montgomery are two that come to mind). 

If DeLorean Mid-Atlantic or another group in the northeast would like to have 
a Millennium concours, the coordinator from that group should contact me and 
I will see what I can arrange to get an eligible judge to that event to act as a 
head judge, and the rest of judges can be selected in a way acceptable to 
both the head judge and the coordinators of the local event - does that sound 

> comprehensive and standard set of rules will elevate the Deloreans to 
> a higher level of value which is good for everybody.

My sentiments EXACTLY.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

James Espey
DeLorean Motor Company
15023 Eddie Drive
Humble, Texas 77396

281/441-2537 Voice
281/441-2813 Fax


Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:59:43 -0600
From: "Mike Griese" <>
Subject: RE: Re: Yet another attempt at gullwings....

From your analysis, I don't think you have seen an Elise
in person.  The Elise is an open top car.  Always has been, 
always will be.  More of a targa top than a true convertible,
as there is a removable rear window in the roll hoop behind
the passenger compartment.

The car normally comes with a soft top, hard tops are
available.  The "gullwings" here aren't doors in the same
sense as a DeLorean.  The standard Elise doors (front
hinged, just like most other cars) would still be used.
Instead, these panels are a modification of the hardtop.  
The panels open up to allow more headroom for getting in 
and out of the car.

I don't quite understand how users would pinch their fingers 
on the front of the glass.  Closing the hatches should be no
more difficult than rolling down the side glass and reaching up
to pull the panel closed.  I would expect a hand grip on the
inside of the panel to assist in closing the panels, even with
the side glass fully up.  Water removal is no different than 
a DeLorean, a channel guides water from the center of the car
out to the sides.  The difference is that unlike the DeLorean,
the water can be exited over the side glass instead of 
keeping it inside the door opening - no need to redesign 
any sills or seals.  Stainless hardware doesn't rust and 
pressure washing shouldn't be a problem at all, or at 
least no more of a problem than the standard soft or hard 

Since the Elise is a normally open car, scuttle shake is 
unaffected by the panels.  The Elise is HUGELY stiff.
It has about 12 times the torsional rigidity of the 
DeLorean.  I have never driven a stiffer road car,
and this includes coupes.  The front windshield is a 
roll structure, so leaning on it won't cause problems
with broken windshields in spite of the lack of a 
permanent top.  The Elise is also very SMALL - it's 3" 
taller in height than the DeLorean,
(44.88" for the DeLorean, 47.3" for the Elise), but
20" shorter in overall length (168" DeLorean, 146.7" Elise), 
4" shorter in wheelbase (94.8" vs. 90.6") and 
about 5" shorter in front and rear track.  The Elise 
weighs about half as much (2,750 lbs vs 1,485 lbs).  
Even with standard engine packages in the Elise 
(111hp to 135hp from a natually-aspirated Rover 1.8L I-4,
depending on options, a 190hp version is available for
track use), it is much quicker than a DeLorean - the Elise 
does a legitimate 5.9s 0-60.  The Elise is mid-engined and
will outhandle and outbrake a DeLorean.

Here are a couple of links to learn more 
about the Elise...

This site has photos of all the various colors
the Series II Elise is available in...

This is the homepage for Lotus Cars in England

This is the hompage for Lotus Cars USA

Also, an excellent book detailing the development of the
Elise is Lotus Elise - The Complete Story by John Tipler.
Note that the Elise is not yet available in the US for road use.
You can purchase a couple of different versions for track use.  It
is generally expected that a road-going version of the car will be
on-sale here in the 3rd quarter of 2003.  I really hope so, as
I have deposit #2 in Minnesota...


-----Original Message-----
From: therealdmcvegas []
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 1:25 AM
Subject: [DML] Re: Yet another attempt at gullwings....

According to the article, it's a design that should make ingress, 
and egress of the vehicle much easier. 


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to