From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 959
Date: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:52 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: Jake Kamphoefner <jkampho_at_dml_siue.edu>

2. Car Show Stats
From: kkoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

3. Re: Courtesy light puzzle
From: "graves_14" <tylergraves_at_dml_hotmail.com>

4. Relay Replacement
From: "shainbrannan" <shain_at_dml_elecmods.com>

5. ADMIN NOTE: Yahoo Problems
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>

6. Concourse closing note
From: kkoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

7. RE: Fiberglass Repair
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

8. RE: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

9. Re: No Parking Brake
From: greglinstad <greglinstad_at_dml_resrchintl.com>

10. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

11. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com

12. Re: RE: Fiberglass Repair
From: Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

13. RE: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: "Montgomery, Ken" <kenm_at_dml_csus.edu>

14. Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours
From: "txgrnbrt" <txgrnbrt_at_dml_yahoo.com>

15. clearwater/tampa delorean
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>

16. T-panel height
From: "nbrommer2k" <nickbrom_at_dml_aol.com>

17. New design for Delorean?
From: "dasani1234" <dasani1234_at_dml_yahoo.com>

18. Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" - Concours d'Elegance
From: FatBoy <fatboy7_at_dml_pacbell.net>

19. catalytic heat shield
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

20. Re: clearwater/tampa delorean
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>

21. Re: catalytic heat shield
From: "daveswingle2" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>

22. Re: catalytic heat shield
From: shain_at_dml_elecmods.com

23. RE: Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" - Concours d'Elegance
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>

24. Re: Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" - Concours d'Elegance
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

25. RE: T-panel height
From: mrvideosawyer_at_dml_netscape.net





Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:34:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Jake Kamphoefner <jkampho_at_dml_siue.edu>
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

	As a college punk, one of the things that irritate me most is a
grade given without justification from the instructor.  However, that's
not the case when judging cars.  While I've never competed in the DeLorean
concourse, I have observed the process several times (St. Louis,
Cleveland, Belfast, etc.) and spoken to the judges.  I'd be willing to bet
any judge can substantiate his or her grade for a car.  We've established
already that improvements are being made to the judging system -- give it
some time.

Michael wrote:
    <<If you need to make a comment to me personally, do it privately like
a gentleman.>>

Mike, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  It's a shame
you've tried to turn a fun hobby into a childish rant, similar to that of
a rebellious teenager.  I don't know why you have such a chip on your
shoulder, but there's no place for it here.

<<emails, especially the one from kNut.>>

Yeah, I'm sure Knut hasn't heard that since 5th grade.  That's gotta hurt.
...Sticks and stones?...

<<I have never entered a concourse nor do I plan to do so in the 
foreseeable future. If I plan to take my DeLorean(S) to a concourse d' 
elegance it will be at Pebble Beach.>>

Good, because the rest of us will be in Memphis to have fun.  I'll look
forward to seeing all of you in Graceland, including Marty, Rich, and even
you Mikey.  I'm taking my ball and going home...


Jake
REGISTER NOW FOR MEMPHIS!!






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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:14:24 EST
From: kkoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Car Show Stats

These numbers may surprise you 
they did me 

Again these are just some fun stats for you.

We have 212 people registered for the events so far.

At the Heartbreak we have 115 rooms

15 rooms are for Vendors and guests like John and the entertainment.

Of the remaining 100 rooms 61% are new first show attendees.

Of the 100 rooms only 40% have paid the event registrations so far.

OK you do the math 
We have 212 and if the same ratio holds in the Raddison 

That means we could have 530????? 
WOW if thats true..

I still expect closer to 400 and I think the Raddison people have a higher 
paid rate but I don't have the list yet.

Registrations are picking up and the Deadline is May 1st.  

If you don't have a room they are almost gone at the Raddison. 

Further stats we have added RI, IA, WA, LA, MO, SC to the list of states and 
I think we are at 27 total states so far.  About the same as the last two 
shows.

Illinois in particular the /Chicago area dominates this show.

Hope you had fun with the stats.

Ken

<A HREF="http://deloreancarshow.com">Deloreancarshow</A>.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:34:48 -0000
From: "graves_14" <tylergraves_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Courtesy light puzzle

I figured it out. Looks like my foot popped off one of the diode 
connections in the driver's side foot area. Plugged it in and they 
work again! Yay!

Tyler

... The door lights do come on when the doors are open (and go off 
when closed). 
The courtesy lights do go on if I manually flip them to the always on 
position. I pulled the white relay, but that didn't do a thing. I'm 
not sure where to start my hunt for an explanation.

 Thanks for your help.
 
 Tyler 
 #3472
 




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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:11:03 -0000
From: "shainbrannan" <shain_at_dml_elecmods.com>
Subject: Relay Replacement

Hello Everyone,

Recently i replaced all fo my relays in my car with newer sytle 40A 
replacements.  I also replaced all my orgional (working) fuses as 
well.  I noticed a large voltage increase .5V-.75V.  When I was done 
i opened one of the older relays(lucas?) to take a took inside.  Lets 
just say that cheap was going through the mind of whoever picked 
these guys out, theres just no comparison between the piece of trash 
i had and the new inporved ones.  Maybe John Hervey would open one up 
and take a picture to show evryone the diffrence.  After you've seen 
what i have, everyone that has the relays will want to replace them 
as well.

- Shain
#10140




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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:25:39 -0500
From: Mike Substelny <msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu>
Subject: ADMIN NOTE: Yahoo Problems

To all DML subscribers,

Yahoo must have experienced serious technical problems over the weekend.  At times
messages were approved but did not go out until many hours later.  The problem seems to
have been worst Monday, when 90% of the messages I approved simply vanished.

The DML is now operating almost normally (today's messages are just a bit slower than
usual), so I assume yesterday's messages are truly lost.  If you posted something
yesterday but never saw your message or a personal rejection explanation written by me, I
invite you to repost it now.

Thank you,

- Mike Substelny
DML moderator of the week




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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:13:55 EST
From: kkoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Concourse closing note

For those of you who know me you know that I always keep and open mind and do 
the best I can for all of the DeLorean owners regardless of what event or 
competition.

I wrote my last comment trying to lightenup the conversations on the judging 
because I do believe that what we have is far superior to many marqui cars 
and we still may be behind others but thats ok we're getting there.
   I have yet to hear anyone say that we are not trying to improve and when 
that happens then its time to complain.

So come to Memphis and enjoy yourself and lets put an end to this thread and 
work together.  Thats what this show is all about.

Ken

DML: note I am requesting an end to this thread 

[MODERATOR NOTE: I did intend to end this thread today.  However, quite a few posts to this thread vanished into the Yahoo void yesterday (along with almost everything else), I will hold the thread open a little longer.  I believe there are still a few points of view that deserve a chance to express themselves.    -Mike Substelny, DML moderating team]



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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:07:17 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Fiberglass Repair

Another one that never made it.. :)


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:19 AM


Does any one have any links, references, or information on patching the fiberglass body on the DMC?

I have 2 huge holes to fill in, where the previous owner installed intercoolers in the fiberglass body under the rear quarter windows (over the wheel wells).

Thanks



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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:05:55 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

I think Yahoo ate this one..  I am re-sending (see Below dated 3/25 _at_dml_ 9:02AM).

Just to add (because of messages posted since this one), I do not question the quality of judging at these events or the judges themselves.  I know of a few examples where judges have made mistakes on cars (even causing some minor damage to one) in the past, but that was NOT the point of my response to James.  I intended (and don't think I am responsible for) any personal attack on the judges, organizers, or participants in the concours.

I was simply pointing out that judging based on a publicly published "judging manual" is not the same thing as judging based on "originally intended specifications".  It is silly for anyone to assume what the intention of the DeLorean engineers were.  If we DID want to make educated guesses on INTENDED specifications, then DeLorean owners with turbo chargers and high performance engine swaps and modifications (even the DMC Houston version) should get BONUS POINTS for these items because we all know that the INTENTION was for the DMC-12 to have more power than it did.  EPA regulations and other issues resulted in the underpowered configuration in a "stock" car.

If you are a participant in the Concours event or were considering it, please don't let my opinions effect your decision to enter this event IF it gives you pleasure in DeLorean ownership!

Marc

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 9:02 AM

Based on my interpretation of the messages James posted last time this subject came up (which is what caused the creation of the Concours mailing list) was that DMC Houston DOES have the final and ultimate authority on the judging rules of the events they sponsor.  DMC Houston is NOT a club, with a committee.  I have no problem with that, but those are the facts!

In addition, "NO COMPENSATION short of the parts business that the concours generates..." is making the parts business seem like a side effect of this event.  I challenge that and say, the parts business the concours generates *IS* the reason for the event.  I have no problem with this either, because I assume all the participants are aware of this.

Past winners would be the best judges?  David, if you want to be a judge just ask James..  :)  I'd vouch for you knowledge of DeLoreans, but I think that would do more harm than good. 

I don't participate in this event.. so why should I care??  It is my disagreement with your last statement "will elevate the Deloreans to a higher level of value which is good for everybody."  I think the Concours event is not only hurting the value and image of our cars, it also makes DeLorean events stressful (even for those who do not participate) and competitive.

Just for clarification to DMC Houston, James, and all of the other readers...  My comment was only to say that in the past it has been stated that "If you want to win the Concours, you have to go by the manual"...  Where the message that was posted recently (that re-started this discussion) said "the concours judging is based on how closely the car adheres to the engineers and designers originally intended specifications."  and those two statements are VERY different!  (Adding to the frustration surrounding this event.)


-----Original Message-----
From: jtrealtywebspannet [mailto:jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net]
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:35 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours


This is an open letter to other Technical Editors and the general 
membership of the DML.
<SNIP>



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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:30:19 -0800
From: greglinstad <greglinstad_at_dml_resrchintl.com>
Subject: Re: No Parking Brake

Payne (#2975) and List,
As Payne mentioned (and others have previously) about the inability to get the parking brake to hold firmly, I discovered last week why mine never worked very well either. Missing pads is sometimes the problem, but mine were new. I decided to totally remove the support bracket that holds the hand brake assembly in place to see if I could find out why no matter how much adjustment I made to the brake units at the wheels the handle would feel OK, but not hold well. After removing the handle from the mounting bracket, it became quite obvious immediately what the problem was. The support bracket had cracked in two places and a spotweld had broken loose. This caused the fixed surface the brake cables start to pull from to be bent back slightly each time the handle was pulled, and was now about 2 inches ( 5.08 cm ) away from its' original position. This was not at all obvious until removal. I straightened the bracket, had it re-welded, and after some minor slotting of holes put it back in place. Then some adjusting of the brake at the wheels (remove that Cotter pin and turn the large slotted screw) and I now have a totally functioning hand brake! Payne said "but I really had to yank it hard" and "I can pull the handle up as hard as I can..." and this is what I used to do, and what probably worsened my problem so be careful when pulling that brake handle. After removing my bracket I noticed that the way it was mounted to the floor and sidewall could put a lot of extra stress on the bracket as the body flexed, and could have been a contributing factor to the cracking. Remove the seat first (only 4 nuts from below) for easy access. I now feel qualified as a Concours Judge of the parking brake assembly (LOL).
FYI, YMMV

Greg Linstad
Pacific Northwest DeLorean Club
VIN#  3507  120,000+ miles
Washington plate  "RUSTLSS"
pndc.org



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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:32:28 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

I was just talking to to James Espey at DMC Houston and he is very 
open to any suggestions, comments, improvements, to the judging 
manual. If anyone has anything to add (with proper documentation) he 
is ready to listen. Although as of now there is no way to appeal if 
you don't agree with him I believe he will try to be as fair as 
possible. I still think interested owners should form some kind of 
"Concours Committee" to oversee the event. If there isn't enough 
interest then James will do it for us and there will be no one to 
complain to. I am E-mailing my comments to him for his review and I 
suggest that anyone with comments do the same. For all interested 
parties there is a concours mailing list to join, see James to get on 
or go to DMC Houston for more info. As of now there are 3 entrants 
registered for the concours with 6 available slots leaving 3 openings 
left. If anyone is really interested in entering they should be 
preparing their cars NOW and getting the judging manual to make sure 
they are getting as close as they can to the "authentic, as delivered 
Delorean as per vin#". 
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> I think Yahoo ate this one..  I am re-sending (see Below dated 3/25 
_at_dml_ 9:02AM).
> 





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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:14:39 EST
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

In a message dated 3/26/02 10:36:10 AM Central Standard Time, 
malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com writes:

> I was simply pointing out that judging based on a publicly published 
> "judging manual" is not the same thing as judging based on "originally 
> intended specifications".  It is silly for anyone to assume what the 
> intention of the DeLorean engineers were.  If we DID want to make educated 
> guesses on INTENDED specifications, then DeLorean owners with turbo 
> chargers and high performance engine swaps and modifications (even the DMC 
> Houston version) should get BONUS POINTS for these items because we all 
> know that the INTENTION was for the DMC-12 to have more power than it did.  
> EPA regulations and other issues resulted in the underpowered configuration 
> in a "stock" car.
> 
> 

    Marc,
   I agree with you 100%. The statement you make "the cars are judged to a 
published judging manual" is exactly right. This is the basis of the current 
"Concours," the judging manual. This manual is supplied to each Concours 
contestant and they are told these are the guidelines the judges are to 
follow. If their car varies from these guidelines they have the choice of 
either supplying documentation supporting the variation, changing their car 
to follow the guidelines in the manual or accept the scoring deductions. As 
additional documented information about the Delorean is volunteered or 
discovered and/or becomes available, the current published "judging manual" 
is revised and/or updated accordingly. 

    As for the "Intended Specifications" part of judging Deloreans and the 
awarding of "BONUS POINTS" - check out Ken Koncelik's car show guidelines for 
the upcoming Memphis show. Anyone entered in the "Modified Class" has the 
opportunity to do just this, gain "Bonus Points" for their modifications. Now 
this is the first time this "Bonus Point" judging has been tried at Ken's 
shows, and as a first attempt it may be found that it needs to be "adjusted" 
for later shows, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.  

    Later,  Marty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:21:42 -0600
From: Robert Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Fiberglass Repair

Marc,
Based on my fiberglass experience
I would recommend making a mold for the shapes you need and pour (make) 
them off the car. leave some loose fibers on the edges.  Then grind the 
edges of the hole with a v ery coarse sander to free up some fibers.
then put in the new piece with a stringer to hold it in place during 
initial glue in.  After th at has hardened, remove the stringer.  and 
finish the glass work.

Final sand and finish to match.
BOB

Marc A. Levy wrote:

>Another one that never made it.. :)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:19 AM
>
>Does any one have any links, references, or information on patching the fiberglass body on the DMC?
>
>I have 2 huge holes to fill in, where the previous owner installed intercoolers in the fiberglass body under the rear quarter windows (over the wheel wells).
>
>Thanks
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderator_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>





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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:04:55 -0800
From: "Montgomery, Ken" <kenm_at_dml_csus.edu>
Subject: RE: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

As a 4 time judge I feel I can make a few QUALIFIED observations.

   I just find it amazing that some of you are nit-picking the Concours
manual and the qualifications of the judges. It shows that you have not
looked to see what has been taken off for points in the previous events.
Mostly, people have been docked for dirt, more than anything else. Next
comes rust and corrosion, then just not having something on the car work,
like an interior light or the windshield washer. I feel that if you have the
cleanest car in the competition, you could have Zillas and an aftermarket
radio and still win. Look for dirt in the wheel wells. White glove test
everywhere, such as under the rubber strip on the bottom of the door. Check
for corrosion on the horn brackets. Look for water marks on the stainless.
Next up is fit and finish. If your hood doesn't match up to the fenders
which don't match up to the doors, etc., you'll loose points. Make sure you
have no dents. Every car in Ireland had dents in one or more panels.

You can argue the fine details all day but the handbook was made to reflect
a snapshot of what the factory would have produced if they had made the
ideal car that day. But always, it's come down to just how clean and
properly fitted the cars have been.

As for my own qualifications, I have studied every aspect of the DeLorean
for years and I do almost all of my own work on the car. I have worked
closely with James and the other judges in the production of the manual. We
spent hours making revisions after St. Louis and I and the other judges have
had personal access to many of the recovered records from the company. And
yes, I have had my own car in Concours competition (DOA).

=======================================================
Ken Montgomery	Sacramento, CA  VIN #10911  'OUTTIME'
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/montkw/delorean/index.htm
mailto:kenm_at_dml_csus.edu
President, Northern California DeLorean Motor Club
http://www.ncdmc.org
Keeper of the International DeLorean Owners Directory
http://www.dmcnews.com  mailto:directory_at_dml_dmcnews.com
=======================================================



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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:41:57 -0000
From: "txgrnbrt" <txgrnbrt_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Millennium: The DeLorean Motor Company Concours

Sounds to me that you are more than qualified, Ken.

I've seen this type of thing happen before in Car Clubs, and 
associations and hope it's nipped before it happens here.

Someone will jump in representing "others" who have "problems" with 
the way cars are judged. I say this: I am an original owner of a DMC-
12, a "E" Series 1957 Thunderbird and several other collectable cars.
I belong to Classic Thunderbird Club International, and their way of 
judging is by the book. (And, they wrote the book!)
There is no changing the rules because someone didn't agree with 
them, I once lost a concours because my car was "Too Restored"!
The 57 TBird's came from the factory with small amounts of overspray 
in side the wheel wells, etc. and I had done mine where there was no 
overspray. Their goal is to "judge the car as it was originally 
delivered", and they do. They also have classes for "drivers" where 
the bottom of the car isn't judged. It only stands to reason that if 
you want to compete in concours with any make auto, it should be 
clean, clean, clean .... inside & out.

I think that if you don't agree with the judging rules, don't enter!

And, if you're not going to enter, then don't criticize!

Your venting may make you feel better, but it casts a negative shadow 
on the cars we own and love.

Jim






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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:59:54 -0500
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: clearwater/tampa delorean


Hi, I was wondering if anyone on the list looked at a black delorean that
was for sale on ebay in the summer of 2000.
It was in clearwater, florida, and had a damaged rear fascia.

Does anyone on the list inspect this car?
If so, I would greatly appreciate if you contact me privately..

Jim 
1537


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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:05:39 -0000
From: "nbrommer2k" <nickbrom_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: T-panel height

Okay, my car's t-panel has sagged and now the doors are rubbing 
against it when they open. Here is the question: how thick should the 
weather stripping be that I use to lift up the panel?

Nick
VIN 3092




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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:41:50 -0000
From: "dasani1234" <dasani1234_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: New design for Delorean?

Has anyone seen a new design for the DMC 12?  What I am talking about 
is what a Delorean would look like in 2002 if it was to be a new car.
I know there are alot of designers out there and would be interested 
in seeing an  up dated design.
From what I have seen of the DMC2, Im not that interested...





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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:21:04 -0800
From: FatBoy <fatboy7_at_dml_pacbell.net>
Subject: Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" - Concours d'Elegance

[MODERATOR NOTE: This message is both inflammatory and anonymous, naming some specific DML subscribers without revealing its author.  It also presents some facts which I am unable to verify.  If some of these facts concern you personally, please feel free to post reasonable corrections.  Regardless, please try to keep all responses on the level of gentlemen (or ladies, if any choose to participate).  Unless other significant points of view arise, I plan to close this thread tomorrow and refer interested parties to the mailing list dedicated to this subject.  - Mike Substelny, DML moderator of the week]

Hello Mr. Espey,

Let's slow down for a minute or two and clarify some of facts regarding Concours d' Elegance competition as it relates to DeLorean automobiles.

Permit me to begin with this statement: This issue will not be resolved with a few off-the-cuff remarks by a few uninformed, wannabe, know-it-alls in this forum.

Let's start by eliminating some of the people who, using the automotive vernacular, begin by "running off at the mouth before putting their brain into gear"! Let's start by agreeing on one given fact; I own a DeLorean automobile.

Unlike the prevailing desire of several of the individuals who post regularly to this forum and would like to modify the rules of Concours d'Elegance competition to fit their personal poor quality automobiles and modifications, you must admit at the onset that each of you has a very limited knowledge of what real Concours d'Elegance competition is all about. 

Let's also play this game by the following rules: Each member of the DeLorean Mailing List who is participating in this exercise and/or is monitoring the progress of this effort, goes back into the archives of the DML and reads each of the previous postings of the respondents by searching by their first and/or last name and by their posted V.I.N.

For example: Mr. Teitelbaum, (VIN #10757) I seem to remember I read somewhere you posted that you won a second place trophy in the Concours d'Elegance at the Cleveland event in the past. However, you neglected to advise us who won First Place and how many other cars were competing that day in Concours d'Elegance competition. If memory serves me correctly, there were only 4 DeLorean automobiles competing in Concours d'Elegance area of the competition that day. We're not talking about daily drivers or Peoples Choice cars. Second place in an "Ugly Woman" contest gives you neither the right nor a stake in how the rules are created, interpreted and applied. Mr. Teitelbaum, pause for a moment and consider the fact that you simply own a DeLorean automobile like all the other owners who monitor this forum. Second place does not qualify you to write the rules for us!

Mr. Battles, (VIN: 06569): How many DeLorean automobiles have you owned? If we search the archives of the DML using your name and/or VIN number will we discover that you have had problems with this and perhaps other DeLorean automobiles? 

Mr. Marc Levy : Didn't you have some problem with your car when you refused to heed the advice of DeLorean service facility professional to repair your exhaust manifolds and/or head gaskets and overheated on the way home from the service facility? I don't recall the exact posting or how long ago it was posted, but I'm sure we can all look it up under your name! Doesn't your DeLorean have a turbo charger? Is it lowered?

Mr. Michael Pack: How many DeLorean automobiles have you owned? Do you own one at this time? Have you ever entered a Concours d'Elegance for DeLorean automobiles?

What gives you the right to require the Concours d'Elegance judges to list their credentials? Get into the competition and let's see what you bring to the table!

Mr. Knut Grimsrud: Well, I am impressed with the fact that you can read the judging manual and have the willingness to review and study your judging assignment. Have you ever participated in DeLorean automobile Concours d'Elegance competition? How did you fare? Just because one goes to medical school and reads a few books on procedures, does that make that individual a qualified doctor? If you require 30 minutes to judge a portion of a DeLorean automobile and another qualified individual can judge the same area in 10 or 15 minutes, does that make you a better judge or just a slower judge?

Marty Maier: Just because you are a DML Moderator, what are your credentials that permit you the opportunity to question the motives and/or qualifications of Michael Pack? Can we look-up your name and VIN history in the archives of the DML and read the condition of your car and your qualifications as a prospective judge?

Now for the time being, this little exercise brings us back to Mr. James Espey's comments. To begin: 1. Do you own a DeLorean automobile Mr. Espey? 2. If so, what is your complete Vehicle Identification Number? 3. Is this the same 1981 DeLorean automobile for which you bought a used 1983 Door from Bob Miller in North or South Carolina and installed on your car when you were a Moderator on the DML a while ago? 4. Was that a correct replacement for a damaged door on car that may be judged for Concours d'Elegance competition some day or evaluated for investment purposes? Did you advise the purchaser that the door had been changed? By the way, there are at least 3 different DeLorean automobile door panel configurations. 

Mr. Espey, how can you assert that DeLorean One and the DeLorean Owners Association were willing to "let it (Concours) die"? Upon what facts do you base this allegation? My documentation reveals that Ed Bernstein of DeLorean One wrote the first Concours d'Elegance judging manual and rule book in January 1986 to be used in the 1st DeLorean automobile Concours d'Elegance, sponsored by DeLorean One in the gardens of the Armor Estate in Lake Forest, Illinois? Did you have a driver's license in January 1986? When did you buy your DeLorean automobile?

Why do you state that the DeLorean Owner's Association let the DeLorean automobile Concours d'Elegance competition die? Do you know who Dorothy Bradley Gates is? Do you know who Anthony Ieradi is? Do you know any of the Concours DeLorean judges and DeLorean Owners Association Concours d'Elegance judges who have re-worked and refined the original DeLorean competition regulations from 1986 until October 1999 when The DeLorean Motor Company Concours was FIRST held in St. Louis, Missouri at the DeLorean Owners Association Exposition that year? Mr. Espey, that was only 30 months ago!

Mr. Espey, you didn't "write the book", you simply expanded upon some of the guidelines that had been in place for 14 years with additional information discovered in documentation which was unknown by the general ownership prior to transfer of ownership by the KAPAC Company in Columbus, Ohio.

Now, If the DeLorean Owners Association held a DeLorean automobile Concours d'Elegance in St. Louis, Missouri as recently as 30 months ago, how can you say they let it die?

You also neglected to say that Ed and Millie Bernstein flew to the DeLorean Owners Association Expo in St. Louis, Missouri from California that year and after the Expo flew directly from St. Louis to New York City to board the Concorde for a round-trip wedding anniversary trip to London and Paris. You also forgot to mention that Bernstein/DeLorean One elected to forgo their sponsorship of the Concours d'Elegance (Concours DeLorean) that year because of the limited amount of time and personnel available to them because of their conflicting, tight vacation schedule.

Now if you can all take a breather and ponder the points mentioned; do a little homework and research into the DML archives; check the past issues of DeLorean World Magazine and get your facts straight, we can explore this matter further in the near future.

By the way. a "concourse" is a large open space for crowds, as in an airline terminal. 

If you can't spell Concours d'Elegance, how can you dummies write the rule book and compete as a participant? Surely, none of you have earned the privilege of using the word "Concours d'Elegance" in it's abbreviated form, you simply can't spell it!

Fatboy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:39:20 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: catalytic heat shield

hey everyone,

after having my engine degreased and steam cleaned, i see that the high 
pressure steam these guys were using pretty much destroyed my already 
crumbling catalytic converter heat shield.  is this thing really necessary?  
what it is shielding against?  it looks like a bear to replace - any comments 
on that?

thanks
Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:33:28 -0500
From: "Walter Coe" <Whalt_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: Re: clearwater/tampa delorean

Well, I'm in Tampa and was never aware of a black DeLorean in the area.  I
remember seeing a black one in the Autotrader for around $6K at about that
time but don't remember what part of the state it was in.  If you need
someone to take a look at a DeLorean in the area for you, I'm game.  Also
there are some other people on the DML who are in the area who can give a
look too.

Walt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Strickland" <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 5:59 PM
Subject: [DML] clearwater/tampa delorean


>
> Hi, I was wondering if anyone on the list looked at a black delorean that
> was for sale on ebay in the summer of 2000.
> It was in clearwater, florida, and had a damaged rear fascia.
>
> Does anyone on the list inspect this car?
> If so, I would greatly appreciate if you contact me privately..
>
> Jim
> 1537



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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:33:22 -0000
From: "daveswingle2" <dswingle_at_dml_enteract.com>
Subject: Re: catalytic heat shield

Yep- BTDT. To properly replace it you kind of have to remove the 
converter (and the muffler). I've seen it done by just bending the 
bracket down, but I like refinishing the bracket too. 

Main purpose of the heat shield is to keep the heat from the 
converter from cracking the epoxy on the frame in that area (or 
worse). There are several vendors that sell a sheet-metal replacement 
for that ASBESTOS shield, I've not tried one but they seem like a 
good idea. (Not concours though.)

Dave Swingle

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., Soma576_at_dml_a... wrote:
> hey everyone,
> 
> after having my engine degreased and steam cleaned, i see that the 
high 
> pressure steam these guys were using pretty much destroyed my 
already 
> crumbling catalytic converter heat shield.  is this thing really 
necessary?  
> what it is shielding against?  it looks like a bear to replace - 
any comments 
> on that?
> 
> thanks
> Andy
> 





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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:41:58 -0500 (EST)
From: shain_at_dml_elecmods.com
Subject: Re: catalytic heat shield

[Moderator Note: The logical caveat of hearsay applies to this post.  - Mike Substelny, DML moderator of the week]

Hi Andy,

I asked one of PJ Grady's mechanics on wethener or now it was nessary.  They said it was not, and the only really inportant one was the one that is between the muffler and the engine.  I believe someone sells a metal replacement.

- Shain
#10140

----- In Response To -----

> hey everyone,
>
> after having my engine degreased and steam cleaned, i see that
> the high pressure steam these guys were using pretty much
> destroyed my already crumbling catalytic converter heat shield.
> is this thing really necessary?  what it is shielding against?
> it looks like a bear to replace - any comments on that?
>
> thanks
> Andy

> Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
> 1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
> Fargo, ND 58102



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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:02:30 -0500
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy_at_dml_paramanet.com>
Subject: RE: Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" - Concours d'Elegance

Let's not start another DOA VS the rest of the DeLorean word argument again.  I though this was all behind us, but based on your comments (you are too much of a coward to identify yourself) you have been around a while and are probably heavily involved with the DOA and D1.


See below for additional comments-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: FatBoy [mailto:fatboy7_at_dml_pacbell.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 11:21 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Cc: msubstel_at_dml_lorainccc.edu
> Subject: [DML] Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" -
> Concours d'Elegance
> 
 
<SNIP>

> Permit me to begin with this statement: This issue will not 
> be resolved with a few off-the-cuff remarks by a few 
> uninformed, wannabe, know-it-alls in this forum.

Permit?  I don't think we have a choice at this point... But your welcome to share your opinions with us, as the rest of us wannabe's do.  Of course, we don't know who YOU are so there is not much credibility given to what you write.

<SNIP>

> Unlike the prevailing desire of several of the individuals 
> who post regularly to this forum and would like to modify the 
> rules of Concours d'Elegance competition to fit their 
> personal poor quality automobiles and modifications, you must 
> admit at the onset that each of you has a very limited 
> knowledge of what real Concours d'Elegance competition is all about. 

I have no desire to modify the rules.  I'd just like to see the practice of being told that these select group of DeLorean automobiles are "better" than others because they meet the standards set in a rule book.  Ken M did a good job of explaining that most of the point deductions were due to DIRT.  Maybe that is true and the other judging criteria is secondary but that is not the root of my issues with this competition.  The real problem is that people like you believe that a "concours quality car" is somehow BETTER than my "personal poor quality automobile".  Why is it necessary for you to treat *ME* as a second class citizen because you think your car is better than mine?  All I can think of is GET A LIFE.  Most of us here are automobile hobbyists and are not completely immersed in the details of DeLoreans.  The only people I exclude from this statement are people who make their living from the DeLorean industry (Grady, Espey, DMC Joe, and so on) my question is, are you one of these people?

<SNIP>

 
> Mr. Marc Levy : Didn't you have some problem with your car 
> when you refused to heed the advice of DeLorean service 
> facility professional to repair your exhaust manifolds and/or 
> head gaskets and overheated on the way home from the service 
> facility? I don't recall the exact posting or how long ago it 
> was posted, but I'm sure we can all look it up under your 
> name! Doesn't your DeLorean have a turbo charger? Is it lowered?

Yes, I did have a problem with my car.  Yes it had a Island turbo kit, and yes it is lowered.  I don't see how any of this has any impact on my opinions in this matter.

I guess you did not go back and read the archives are you suggested we all do.  Among people that know me and the DML, I have never made it a secret that my Island turbo engine seems to have a cracked ring.  I was advised by Rob Grady many years ago that to repair the problem I would probably need major internal engine work.  At the time, the engine was still running well (and still did when I removed it from the car November 2001) With that cracked ring I drove the car to Ohio twice, Virginia twice, Rhode Island, Long Island (a number of times) and used it as a "nice weather daily driver" for many years. 

Because it seems you so closely track my activities (why would you care?!), That car (#6068) is waiting to receive a replacement engine.  I am still undecided if I should install the Chrysler 3.5 conversion I have been working on, or my Legend built twin turbo engine which I purchased with car #1860.  Either way, I obviously have NO INTENTIONS of having a "Concours car".  (Or can we say that the INTENTION was to have the Legend built motor in the car?)  I don't see why my lack of participation in the event excludes me from having an opinion on it, or posing what I saw as a correction to what James posted.

A lot of interesting information can be discovered about the history of DML members by searching the archives... Except maybe you, because you have not identified yourself.

<SNIP>

> 4. Was that a correct replacement for a damaged door on car 
> that may be judged for Concours d'Elegance competition some 
> day or evaluated for investment purposes? Did you advise the 
> purchaser that the door had been changed? By the way, there 
> are at least 3 different DeLorean automobile door panel 
> configurations. 

OK, I can get a plug in here!  I have a EARLY (500 series) door for sale that was purchased from Legend Industries when they went under.  If anyone needs it, please contact me directly!

<SNIP>
> 
> By the way. a "concourse" is a large open space for crowds, 
> as in an airline terminal. 
> 
> If you can't spell Concours d'Elegance, how can you dummies 
> write the rule book and compete as a participant? Surely, 
> none of you have earned the privilege of using the word 
> "Concours d'Elegance" in it's abbreviated form, you simply 
> can't spell it!
> 
> Fatboy
> 

At least we can spell our real names!

I don't care how it is spelled, the idea that there is even such a strict and exclusive contest for DeLorean is silly.  It brings out the worst in people.

Your subject line of "facts" is incorrect.  You have not presented any FACTS, only loose descriptions and heavy attacks against the people involved in this discussion (on both sides!).  I'm not sure what the purpose of your message was as it relates to the discussion.

We have 5 months to Memphis.  It would be nice if the air is clear by then.  I'd like to enjoy the events Ken K has worked so hard to put together for us!  Your message is an attempt to add fuel to the fire, I suspect you are also not a "DeLorean Car Show" enthusiast, and only participate in DOA events?


Marc Levy
#06068
#01860



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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:10:00 -0000
From: "jtrealtywebspannet" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Let's try again; Facts and "The airline terminal" - Concours d'Elegance

I feel compelled to respond to "fatboy". I HAVE competed in 2 Concours 
while my car has actually been in 3 (1 was by a previous owner). I won 
1st place in 98 and 2nd in 2000 (in the first entry in Williamsburg by 
the previous owner the car didn't place.) By having PARTICIPATED!I 
feel I have some credibility and knowledge at least as it pertains to 
Deloreans but I have also participated in concours events for Jaguars 
having owned 3 XKE's and competed in their concours. In the two 
concours I was in with my Delorean I competed against 5 other cars 
each time. While it is true not all 6 of the cars may have been worthy 
of winning 1st place, at least the top 3 were very close. If you have 
EVER participated in a concours then you would be aware that the 
competion can be fierce. 
 You raise some good points but to post anonomously and not bring up 
any positive comments reduces your credibility and only sounds sour. 
Memory isn't serving you well as there were 6 cars entered in the 
concours in Cleavland and if you are asking everyone to post their 
name ane vin then at least return the courtesy! You are right that 
winning a concours doesn't automatically give anyone the right to set 
the rules but as any owner I should have the right to voice my 
opinion about them! Do YOUR research and see for yourself who entered 
and who won the different concours events, this is part of the 
preperation for a concours so you know who you are competing against! 
When you do you will know who won in Cleavland and who won 1st place 
in Cincinnatti in 98.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_y..., FatBoy <fatboy7_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> [MODERATOR NOTE: This message is both inflammatory and anonymous, 
naming some specific DML subscribers without revealing its author.  It 
also presents some facts which I am unable to verify.  If some of 
these facts concern you personally, please feel free to post 
reasonable corrections.  Regardless, please try to keep all responses 
on the level of gentlemen (or ladies, if any choose to participate).  
Unless other significant points of view arise, I plan to close this 
thread tomorrow and refer interested parties to the mailing list 
dedicated to this subject.  - Mike Substelny, DML moderator of the 
week]
> 
> Hello Mr. Espey,
> 





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Message: 25
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:24:48 -0500
From: mrvideosawyer_at_dml_netscape.net
Subject: RE: T-panel height

Nick,
I have come up with the BEST way to fix T-panel.  Take T off and clean black goo off panel and fiberglass.  Get some expanding foam from your hardware store.  Lay down two beads of this stuff on both sides (on fiberglass) and let it expand.  Lay plastic wrap over foam (this keeps panel from sticking in foam) then place T on top.  Close doors then lay 1 "x 6"'s across from door to door and weight down.  This will make T be a perfect height and match.  Come back the next day and remove T take plastic off.  Use contact adhesive on ONE part (T or foam does not matter) this is just incase in the future you have to remove T.  All that is left is to screw in on back side.

This procedure gives you a perfect mold and fit.  You will be farting around with diffrent size foams for ever.  My way works and is proven.

Jim
4149   
"nbrommer2k" <nickbrom_at_dml_aol.com> wrote:

>Okay, my car's t-panel has sagged and now the doors are rubbing 
>against it when they open. Here is the question: how thick should the 
>weather stripping be that I use to lift up the panel?
>
>Nick
>VIN 3092

[moderator snip]



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