From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1334
Date: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:28 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Ah, the great R12 vs R134 debate...
From: "content22207 <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

2. Ontario DeLorean Owners Club
From: <delorean_at_dml_digital-devices.net>

3. Re: Rear ended and 3rd brake light
From: "dmc_driver <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>" <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>

4. How serious of a jump.........???
From: <krasniy_at_dml_krasniy.com>

5. RE: "DUHHH!!!!" at the gas pump
From: "media1524 <brentlun_at_dml_netrax.net>" <brentlun_at_dml_netrax.net>

6. Re: How serious of a jump.........???
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>

7. 3rd brake light kit
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>

8. Re: Ah, the great R12 vs R134 debate...
From: "vrvader <vrvader_at_dml_hotmail.com>" <vrvader_at_dml_hotmail.com>

9. Virus Alert
From: Vin 5386 <delorean_stainless_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: 3rd brake light kit
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>

11. Last Call for TOBY-TAB's
From: "Toby Peterson <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

12. Re: 3rd brake light kit
From: "Toby Peterson <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

13. Re: Re: Ah, the great R12 vs R134 debate...
From: john fredt <hecklerkochgmbh_at_dml_yahoo.com>

14. Re: 3rd brake light kit
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com

15. DeLorean stereo upgrade
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

16. Re: Re: GEICO Insurance Co.
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Interesting article on Giorgio Giugiaro
From: "jacobsproperties <v-davidj_at_dml_microsoft.com>" <v-davidj_at_dml_microsoft.com>





Message: 1
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 04:12:47 -0000
From: "content22207 <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Ah, the great R12 vs R134 debate...

Without opening that Pandora's box, the problem with moisture mixed
with ANY freon is that it will freeze in the system and block it up.
All freons "boil" (change to a gas) well below the freezing point of
water, around 22 degrees or so. That's why it's imperative to vacuum a
system before you charge it. You can actually see rings of ice form on
the outside of hoses and lines that have water vapor trapped in them
(the rings move as they chase the clog). This is all on the low side
of course.

FWIW: I have 6 converted R12 systems in my driveway right now. ONLY
drawback I have experienced is clutch mounted fans don't seem to move
enough air to start good refrigeration cycle by themselves (car needs
to be moving). Wasn't a problem with my DeLorean electric fans. Honest
to goodness, no other problems. And as I stated last summer, when I
bypassed heater core at last minute before July 4 trip (Lincoln, not
DeLorean), evaporator kept icing up like coils on an old freezer.
Don't tell me R134 doesn't get cold enough (I usually get daytime
readings at the vents in the 40's, sometimes dropping into the 30's
after dark).

Bill Robertson
#5939





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 00:29:20 -0500
From: <delorean_at_dml_digital-devices.net>
Subject: Ontario DeLorean Owners Club

New club I put together, Just wanted to get the word out on the list
here in case anybody else would like to sign up.
 
Its all free, just a small little page to setup meets among local owners
in the area.
 
www.odoc.ca <http://www.odoc.ca/> 
 
please feel free to email me privately off the list if you are
interested!
 
ken_at_dml_odoc.ca
 
Thanks
Ken
5541
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 06:23:07 -0000
From: "dmc_driver <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>" <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Rear ended and 3rd brake light

( Moderator's note: You'll find one at Don Steger's shop: www.deloreanmotorcenter.com.) 

The thought of rear-end collisions involving a Delorean sends shivers
down my spine.  I drove my "D" almost daily last summer and I had a
few close calls.  It seems that large pick-up trucks and SUV's have a
greater risk of rear-ending a Delorean.  When one of these vehicles is
behind me,  I usually can only see their front bumper and part of
their grill in my rear view mirror, so I doubt they would be able to
see my brake lights at all.  A third brake light is definitely being
added to my Delorean this winter.  Do any of the DMC vendors sell
them?  I checked Grady's and Houston's sites, but didn't see any 3rd
brake-light kits.  Someone mentioned using one from a Corvette, so
maybe I'll go that route.  Thanks.

Richard
#05853




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:54:33 -0500
From: <krasniy_at_dml_krasniy.com>
Subject: How serious of a jump.........???

I always loved the Delorean when I was young (Im 35 years old) but
always had a misconception that a Delorean was a $75000+ automobile....
recently I was shocked to learn that the original price was a shy amount
less than $30K and the current prices in the low teens (and in some
cases less than 10K, but those are usually some major TLC requiring
vehicles). 
 I am seriously interested in purchasing a Delorean....I have two
options: one is to wait until summer when I can have more cash to throw
at the purchase, or secondly, to take scrape up a loan or something
now...  I have been watching the group for a while now and it seems that
the impression I am getting is that the value of the Delorean is about
to jump (something about an auction in January) and also that more and
more of the vehicle I am seeing listed for sale are slowly creeping to
the higher teens... Supply and Demand? What was it: aprox 4000 of the
8500 or so made it to the US?
 And believe it or not here in Florida, we seem blessed to have multiple
Deloreans for sale, in fact one is for sale a mere 30 minutes from me
for 11k or maybe 12k or so....think its a 1983.
 So any comments, suggestions, or opinions would be welcome.
   Thanks.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 13:58:21 -0000
From: "media1524 <brentlun_at_dml_netrax.net>" <brentlun_at_dml_netrax.net>
Subject: RE: "DUHHH!!!!" at the gas pump

I think my favorite DeLorean moment was during the DeLorean Mid-
Atlantic Spring Social last year.  On Saturday evening, several of us 
decided to visit a local landmark in Flemington, NJ.  Jim Reeve had 
come in from Minnesota but didn't have his car so he was riding with 
me.  When we arrived, we had to park on the street.  As we pulled 
into a vacant spot, these two guys were passing by with their dates.  
They were headed to the same place we were.  None of them had seen a 
DeLorean in person before so they wanted to look it over and sit in 
it and they had some questions.  When they were satisfied, we all 
headed down the street and the girls were walking with Jim and I!  
When the girls rejoined their dates at the entrance, the guys did not 
look happy.

Brent Lundgren
1983 VIN #17006
1981 VIN #3049




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:11:59 -0600
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: How serious of a jump.........???

The Delorean will jump in value to $50k this year.  At least, that's what we've heard
every year for the last 20 years, and sooner or later it will be true ("See?  I told
ya!").

BUT, I doubt it's happening anytime soon.  Which is fine with me, since my car is a
vehicle and not an investment.   I think the important difference this year is that the
"high" blue-book value went up, acknowledging the existance and value of Deloreans in
excellent condition.  Right now I have over $30k in my car, much of which is
improvements (as opposed to repairs) but there's little chance I could sell it for
anywhere near that number.  Good thing it's not for sale.  :-)

Someone shopping for their first Delorean should take their time.  There's nothing a
seller likes better than an eager buyer.  You should look at LOTS of them, even ones
you're not really interested in.  And, you should buy the the best one you can afford.
Not the most expensive, mind you, but the best one that meets your criteria.

The owners on the list should probably assemble our purchase tales into an archive.
Until then, we have other useful links...

Basic prepurchase checklist:

   http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/prepurchase.htm

Comprehensive prepurchase checklist:

   http://www.usadmc.com/files/report.pdf
   (lots more files at http://www.delorean.com/downloads.asp)

How to spend a lot of money:

   http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/restoration.htm



Gus Schlachter
VIN# 4695
Austin, TX





krasniy_at_dml_krasniy.com wrote:

>  I am seriously interested in purchasing a Delorean....I have two
> options: one is to wait until summer when I can have more cash to throw
> at the purchase, or secondly, to take scrape up a loan or something
> now...  I have been watching the group for a while now and it seems that
> the impression I am getting is that the value of the Delorean is about
> to jump (something about an auction in January) and also that more and
> more of the vehicle I am seeing listed for sale are slowly creeping to
> the higher teens... Supply and Demand? What was it: aprox 4000 of the
> 8500 or so made it to the US?




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 11:12:35 -0600
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>
Subject: 3rd brake light kit

Yep, Don has a "brakezilla":


   http://www.deloreanmotorcenter.com/_a000036_3rd_brake_light_kit.html



"dmc_driver " wrote:

> ( Moderator's note: You'll find one at Don Steger's shop: www.deloreanmotorcenter.com.)
>
> The thought of rear-end collisions involving a Delorean sends shivers
> down my spine.  I drove my "D" almost daily last summer and I had a
> few close calls.  It seems that large pick-up trucks and SUV's have a
> greater risk of rear-ending a Delorean.  When one of these vehicles is
> behind me,  I usually can only see their front bumper and part of
> their grill in my rear view mirror, so I doubt they would be able to
> see my brake lights at all.  A third brake light is definitely being
> added to my Delorean this winter.  Do any of the DMC vendors sell
> them?  I checked Grady's and Houston's sites, but didn't see any 3rd
> brake-light kits.  Someone mentioned using one from a Corvette, so
> maybe I'll go that route.  Thanks.
>
> Richard
> #05853




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:35:52 -0000
From: "vrvader <vrvader_at_dml_hotmail.com>" <vrvader_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ah, the great R12 vs R134 debate...

---
Without opening that Pandora's box, the problem with moisture mixed 
with ANY freon is that it will freeze in the system and block it up.
---

I will have to second this, with bill's help I got my converted 
system running fine and it runs as cold as it did with r12 in it.  I 
do not believe I have the stock compressor though but I am not sure 
on this.

derric




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:10:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Vin 5386 <delorean_stainless_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Virus Alert

As of sunday while checking my email I opened and DML
message and immediately got a virus warning. needless
to say in only a few minutes it spread across my
entire network shutting everything down. Not sure if
anyone else had a similar problem but thought I'd give
a heads up to the group.

Todd
Vin 5386



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:12:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>
Subject: Re: 3rd brake light kit

I think it was Marty from the Midstate club (Illinois) that had a 3rd
brake light that was tucked UNDER the top louver. You wouldn't notice it
until it lit up. He also said that you don't see it in your rear view
mirror.

As I recall, it was a part from a GM truck or something. Marty, how did
you do it?

-Christian

On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Gus Schlachter wrote:

> Yep, Don has a "brakezilla":
>
>
>    http://www.deloreanmotorcenter.com/_a000036_3rd_brake_light_kit.html
>
>
>
> "dmc_driver " wrote:
>
> > ( Moderator's note: You'll find one at Don Steger's shop: www.deloreanmotorcenter.com.)
> >
> > The thought of rear-end collisions involving a Delorean sends shivers
> > down my spine.  I drove my "D" almost daily last summer and I had a
> > few close calls.  It seems that large pick-up trucks and SUV's have a
> > greater risk of rear-ending a Delorean.  When one of these vehicles is
> > behind me,  I usually can only see their front bumper and part of
> > their grill in my rear view mirror, so I doubt they would be able to
> > see my brake lights at all.  A third brake light is definitely being
> > added to my Delorean this winter.  Do any of the DMC vendors sell
> > them?  I checked Grady's and Houston's sites, but didn't see any 3rd
> > brake-light kits.  Someone mentioned using one from a Corvette, so
> > maybe I'll go that route.  Thanks.
> >
> > Richard
> > #05853
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 23:48:14 -0000
From: "Toby Peterson <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Last Call for TOBY-TAB's

Hello List - I thought it appropriate to let you know that there are 
only six (6) TOBY-TAB kits left, and there may not be another 
production run.  If you are interested in having the best TAB's 
(trailing arm bolts) that money can buy, but have been holding out for 
some reason, I would suggest that you make a quality decision and 
place your order now at www.delorean-parts.com .  The supplier for 
these bolts has indicated that they are prepared to manufacture a 
second batch if requested, but that the same financial terms would 
apply.  That means that the bolts must be purchased "up front" with 
cash.  That was the way that we funded the first batch, but it has 
taken an excessive amount of time to recoup our initial investment.  
There has been a great deal of discussion on the List about the 
financial aspects of producing replacement and/or improved parts for 
the DeLorean.  This has been a real learning experience for me 
personally ... we have just now barely broken even on the project, 
without consideration for any of the time spent in any aspect of 
design, procurement, or distribution.  From my perspective at this 
time, the only way that another batch could be made is with 
sponsorship or other financial backing from some of the DeLorean 
vendors that have a vested interest in the long-term view of the 
DeLorean automobile.  If you have an interest in this project, or 
other ideas, please contact me offlist at tobyp(at)katewwdb.com.  I 
hope that the new year is treating everybody well ... keep the shiny 
side up!

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1  




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:01:02 -0000
From: "Toby Peterson <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: 3rd brake light kit

While I was in Tokyo a few years ago, I got a report that one of the 
PNDC members had been rear-ended for the fourth time.  Right then, I 
decided that a high-mounted third brake light was in order.  I found a 
store in downtown Tokyo that had generic high-intensity LED brake 
lights that came in various lengths, and could be attached with 
double-sided tape.  These lights are clear in appearance, until the 
LED's are activated.  They shine a very intense and bright red.  I got 
two units that were the exact length of each side of the louver, with 
the rib down the middle.  They are mounted to the underside of the top 
louver, on either side of the rib, and cannot be seen from inside and 
are not obvious at all from the outside.  I feel that the setup on 
Winged1 is very good as compared to some of the other installations 
that I have seen out there.  I will try to get a photo uploaded in the 
near future.  Always remember to watch your backside!

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1  

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_f...> 
wrote:
> I think it was Marty from the Midstate club (Illinois) that had a 
>3rd brake light that was tucked UNDER the top louver. You wouldn't 
>notice it until it lit up. He also said that you don't see it in your 
>rear view mirror.





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:09:20 -0800 (PST)
From: john fredt <hecklerkochgmbh_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Ah, the great R12 vs R134 debate...


 
This isnt directly delorean realted but helpful for servicing themThere is a cheap alternative to having the shop service your air conditioning system.It is a small "air vac" vacuum pump driven by air from your air compressor.With this thing and a cheap set of gauges and hoses which can be got at most auto parts stores you can serivice it yourself.there are also kits available for flushing the system yourself which arent to expensive.The air vac can pull enough vacuum to evacute almost any system including the DeLoreans.Here is a link to where you can pick up this handy gadget-------.http://www.autotoolexpress.com/airvacforr12.html ----.It cost around $60 dollars which is quite a deal compared to the $300-$800 a regular vacuum pump costs. There are even shops who you use this thing.The cost of the air vac and hoses/gauges altogether shouldnt exceed $120.00 excluding shipping,but you should be able to find a dealer near you.The people who generally carry the air vac on hand sell to garages so it wont be a retail store.There is a set of r134 fitting adapters which should be included with any gauge set you buy make sure they are before you purchase it.I believe discount auto parts has a set right behind the parts counter hanging on a display rack near the o-rings for ac systems.If you have any further questions email me off list.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:47:42 EST
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: 3rd brake light kit

Christian,

  You are correct about the 3rd brake light unit that we have used on a few 
of the groups Deloreans. It is a GM unit from a late 90's Suburban. It is 
about 16" wide but only 1" tall and 2" deep, molded in black plastic with 
LED's all the way across the back. 
   I normally mount these up under the top louver across the back. What I do 
is cut a slot thru the rib/support under the top louver in the same shape as 
a cross section thru the 3rd brake light. The rib/support is deep enough to 
allow this without cutting the rib apart. I position the light unit about 1" 
back from the back edge of the louver. The light is then slid thru the rib 
and installed "upside down," so to speak, with the bottom flat part of the 
light going up against the underneath flat part of the louver. The light ends 
up being "captured" or held in place by the rib and I also use a little bit 
of black RTV / silicone on the bottom of the light to glue the light to the 
louver as added security. The wires are then run under the upper louver 
forward up to the back of the T-panel and then hidden and run into the rear 
facia and tied into the brake light circuit. I normally put a male/female 
plug on the wires where they meet the T-panel so the louvers can be removed 
with the 3rd brake light attached without any problems.
    Like you said, the best part of this installation is the light just 
blends in with the louvers and is not noticeable, until you step on the brake 
pedal. I also like this unit because these lights themselves are much 
brighter then many aftermarket add on 3rd brake lights I've seen. We've had 
some guys swap out their existing 3rd light system for this setup just 
because of the brightness.
    You can see a photo of this installation in the DML / yahoogroups photos 
section under "3rd brake lights - Bruce Benson".   
     
     Marty


> I think it was Marty from the MidState club (Illinois) that had a 3rd
> brake light that was tucked UNDER the top louver. You wouldn't notice it
> until it lit up. He also said that you don't see it in your rear view
> mirror.
> 
> As I recall, it was a part from a GM truck or something. Marty, how did
> you do it?
> 
>   Christian




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:43:17 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: DeLorean stereo upgrade

List,

many thanks to everyone on here who have been helping me out with information 
relating to upgrading the D's terrible stock stereo system.  

with the help of Kayo Ong (a master of audio) i am currently building a 
stereo system that will be great-looking, doesn't have any boxes sitting on 
the shelf, uses the aboslute minimum in parcel shelf space lost, running 
approximately 600 watts of power off two amps, and using only the highest 
quality components (without going overboard).  no it will not KABOOM down the 
block but the sound will be very high-quality indeed, and sure to impress!  i 
am convinced when all is said and done it will be hard to top this one in 
terms of sheer quality, stealth looks, maximization of useable space w/o 
drastically altering cargo room, and flexibility.  not a kiddie job here!

features:
alpine cd deck
6 2-way coaxial speakers
1 4way full range amp
1 monoblock subwoofer amp
1 dual voice coil 8" sub
1 active crossover
1 4-band active EQ
a lot of imagination and planning!

stay tuned - i should have it ready to go around Feb 1st.  at that time i 
will post pics and all the vital information.

thanks again to all of the support, phone calls, and personal experiences 
everyone has shared!

Andy

Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:30:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: GEICO Insurance Co.

Mark is right on - AND when making those comparisons,
don't fall for that old line "full coverage" .  What
is full coverage to one person is far from full
coverage to another - like minimal liability limits -
I wouldn't drive around the block with 50,000/100,000.
 

Dick Ryan

PS  Here in Colorado we have horrifically high rates. 



--- Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org> wrote:
> Personally I don't think a Poll would do much for
> this subject. Insurance
> rates vary so much state by state that you can't
> tell if you're getting a
> good deal just from seeing what someone else in a
> different state is
> paying. Like Chuck's rate below. $440/yr sounds
> fine, but I don't know
> where he lives. It might be high for his area for
> all I know. I pay about
> $500 myself here in Utah, but someone from New
> Jersey (noted for high
> rates) would think both those rates are spectacular
> as they're probably
> paying a couple of thousand for a year.
> 
> If you want to know if your insurance rates are
> good, then talk to people
> who live near you, in the same state. Also call
> around and get quotes.
> Comparing rates with people in other states is
> pretty much a waste of time
> IMHO.
> 
> Mark N
> VIN 6820
> 
> At 09:33 AM 1/6/2003 -0000, you wrote:
> >
> >( Moderators Note: Maybe a poll would be a good
> idea. This subject keeps
> reappearing and never seems to end until a moderator
> finaly kills the
> subject. The archives are full of comments. Anyone
> want to  start  a poll? )
> >
> >
> >We really should have a poll on what eveyone is
> paying for Insurance! 
> >I think I have a great deal (So Far ) I pay $440.00
> a year for full 
> >coverage with a $500.00 deductable. When I called
> my agent , he never 
> >blinked an eye when I said Delorean. Is this a good
> rate?
> >
> >Chuck Darling
> >Vin# 6125
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 02:46:10 -0000
From: "jacobsproperties <v-davidj_at_dml_microsoft.com>" <v-davidj_at_dml_microsoft.com>
Subject: Interesting article on Giorgio Giugiaro

Pretty good article on Giorgio Giugiaro.  Plenty of good pictures to 
boot.

http://www.europeancarweb.com/features/0203ec_italdesign/index.html

Just thought I would share.

Dave




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/