From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1405
Date: Monday, March 03, 2003 11:08 AM

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There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. DeLorean pricing
From: "Scott Gardner" <gardners14_at_dml_cox.net>

2. how many ?
From: "ferdaniraphael <raphael.ferdani_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>" <raphael.ferdani_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>

3. Re: DeLorean pricing
From: Pete Berveiler <zamphyr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>

4. RE: anyone know a decent alarm?
From: "K. Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>

5. RE: DeLorean pricing
From: "K. Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>

6. Re: DeLorean pricing
From: iznodmad_at_dml_aol.com

7. Re: DeLorean pricing
From: "Dave Swingle <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

8. Re: DeLorean pricing
From: "Christopher Hawes" <chris_at_dml_hawes74.freeserve.co.uk>

9. Re: DeLorean pricing
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: how many ?
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

11. Help needed in FLA
From: "Dave Swingle <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

12. Re: DeLorean pricing
From: Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org>

13. Re: Connectors
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

14. Re: how many ?
From: "Harold McElraft <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

15. Re: Water Pump
From: "Dave Sontos" <dsontos_at_dml_sybercom.net>

16. RE: NEW BTTF Series Premieres March 15!!!
From: "Jeff" <webmaster_at_dml_88-mph.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 02:00:38 -0500
From: "Scott Gardner" <gardners14_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: DeLorean pricing

I talked to the staff at DMC in Houston about a year ago, regarding
their $32,500 "turn-key" cars, and the gentleman basically said "We've
been doing this for a long time, and $30k is what it costs to get a good
DeLorean.  You'll either spend it up front or in repairs."  I don't have
as much experience with the cars as they do, but if you go the other
route and buy a typical $12-15k car, does it *really* take $18-20
thousand of additional funds to get the car up to the quality of one of
their "turn-key" models?  I know that they do the factory-recommended
updates, and replace stuff like relays and door struts, and re-dye the
entire interior, but it's not like they re-build the engine as a matter
of course or anything like that.  The $32,500 price is without any
performance upgrades, or things like lowered suspension, Xenon lights,
or an upgraded sound system, so I'm still at a loss as to what they do
for the extra money.  The warranty is nice, obviously, but I'm curious
if it's true that one way or the other, you have to spend $30k to end up
with a good 'D'.


Scott Gardner






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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 14:49:36 -0000
From: "ferdaniraphael <raphael.ferdani_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>" <raphael.ferdani_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>
Subject: how many ?

8583 Deloreans were built ; how many still exist ? How many on the 
road ?...or project cars ?
Raphael




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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 11:58:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Pete Berveiler <zamphyr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean pricing

Scott,

Most D owners discount their sweat-equity greatly. 
The D is a complex machine, and it is labor-intensive.
 Go look at any of the Delorean Webring sites about
how many hours the rebuilders and self-help mechanics
have logged on those cars (Project Vixen is a good
example, he bought his for 12K and is up to $24K in
total expenses... EXCLUDING labor!)

Remember DMC-H is a COMPANY, and yes they may have
chaged out every hose, nut, etc. for the $32K they ask
for, but they pretty much gaurantee those cars to be
daily drivers and usable machines.

Their performance springs ARE nice, and I am getting
close to having them drop the $4500 Stage I
performance mod in my D before I convert it to CCEFI
instead of MechanicalFI.  Trust those guys... I have
never seen them wrong... except once... but that was a
minor payment issue hehe.

Pete


--- Scott Gardner <gardners14_at_dml_cox.net> wrote:
> I talked to the staff at DMC in Houston about a year
> ago, regarding
> their $32,500 "turn-key" cars, and the gentleman
> basically said "We've
> been doing this for a long time, and $30k is what it
> costs to get a good
> DeLorean.  You'll either spend it up front or in
> repairs."  I don't have
> as much experience with the cars as they do, but if
> you go the other
> route and buy a typical $12-15k car, does it
> *really* take $18-20
> thousand of additional funds to get the car up to
> the quality of one of
> their "turn-key" models?  I know that they do the
> factory-recommended
> updates, and replace stuff like relays and door
> struts, and re-dye the
> entire interior, but it's not like they re-build the
> engine as a matter
> of course or anything like that.  The $32,500 price
> is without any
> performance upgrades, or things like lowered
> suspension, Xenon lights,
> or an upgraded sound system, so I'm still at a loss
> as to what they do
> for the extra money.  The warranty is nice,
> obviously, but I'm curious
> if it's true that one way or the other, you have to
> spend $30k to end up
> with a good 'D'.
> 
> 
> Scott Gardner



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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:00:33 -0600
From: "K. Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: anyone know a decent alarm?

Scott sounds very knowledgeable.
I used the Crimestopper 2001FC model, and it interfaced with the lock module
well. It also gave me a dual stage unlock-- but I use the second stage to
pop the driver's door. The trunk open pops the passenger door, and third
output might someday do the trunk but I don't know why-- my trunk has always
been a two-hand operation no matter how I try to adjust it.
-Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Gardner [mailto:gardners14_at_dml_cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:42 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [DML] anyone know a decent alarm?


Casey,
	What you need is a "dual-stage" shock sensor, and most alarms
have them these days.  They provide for a "pre-alarm" chirp in response
to light taps, and a full-on alarm in response to harder impacts.  Both
levels of sensitivity are adjustable.

	Let me start off by saying that you don't have to be concerned
about finding some special exotic alarm to go with a DeLorean.  As far
as alarms are concerned, the DeLorean is just like most other cars out
there--twelve volt, negative ground, with electrically-operated locks.
If you had a six-volt car with positive ground and vacuum-operated
locks, your choices would be more limited and more ingenuity would be
required, but that's not the case here.

	That being said, there are four things I would certainly look
for in a potential alarm.  Look for one that has a lock/unlock pulse
length of at least one second.  That's pretty standard now, but some
older alarms might have a pulse that's too short to adequately active
the solenoids.  Also, if you plan to have the alarm flash your parking
lights, look for fused parking light outputs.  Without them, a thief can
remove one of your parking light lenses and bulb, stuff some tinfoil in
the socket, and then set off your alarm, shorting out the processor and
disabling the alarm.  Lastly, find out if the starter-kill circuit is
"normally-open" or "normally-closed".  These is also called
"fail-secure" or "fail-safe".  With a normally-open/fail-secure type, if
the alarm brain dies, you won't be able to start the car.  With a
normally-closed/fail-safe type, you will still be able to start the car
with a dead alarm brain, but it will be slightly easier for a thief to
steal your car if he can disable/destroy the alarm.  You'll have to
decide which is more important to you.  Lastly, get an alarm with
"passive arming", which automatically arms the alarm after the last door
is closed.  This type is usually required for any kind of insurance
discount.  I thought that this was pretty much standard these days, but
I've recently seen some very full-featured alarms that did not passively
arm.

	Regarding the brand of alarm, decide first what your needs are.
Do you want two-way paging between the car and your transmitter?  Do you
want to remotely-start the vehicle?  Want a starter kill? A mechanical
hood lock? How many outputs do you need for things like door
lock/unlock, hood/trunk release, remote door opening, etcetera?  How
many and what type of sensors do you want? (Doors, hood, trunk, radar,
microwave, glass-breakage, shock, etcetera)

	With alarms, there's a *very* wide spectrum of quality.  Also
know that there are relatively few companies actually manufacturing
alarms.  Many different brands are just "re-boxed" versions of the same
alarms.

	You can't really go wrong with DEI (Clifford, Viper, Python), or
Ungo.  Crimestopper is pretty fair overall, but I wouldn't get their
"top-of-the-line" remote starter/pager version, the CS2005FM.  They
didn't design that one, it's just another company's alarm that
Crimestopper re-boxed, and after installing several of them, I can tell
you the quality just isn't there.

	Stay away from Alphaguards, Sparkomatic, Audiovox (Prestige),
and any alarm that only comes in a "white-box" OEM version.  These are
the alarms I mentioned earlier that are all made in the same factory,
then put in white boxes and distributed to two dozen different
"companies" that just put their own labels on the boxes and units.

	I know that some people have installed $89 alarms and been very
happy with them for years, but the better alarms are easier to install,
work more reliably, and are easier to have serviced if anything does go
wrong.

Hope this helps,
Scott Gardner

[moderator snip]



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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:06:24 -0600
From: "K. Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: DeLorean pricing

It's not bad-- consider it is professionally done and some warranty to boot.
Consider the famous DML "rule of 20"-- take any D and no matter what you
spend on it, the repairs will sooner than later hit 20. I think it's bit on
the low side-- even if I am still shy of the 20 mark myself at this moment.

[duplicate quote snipped by moderator]



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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 15:24:46 EST
From: iznodmad_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean pricing

So the question is, "Do you have to spend $30K to get a good D?"  Judging by 
your choice of words, with "good" being the key word, I am inclined to say 
no.  I will remind the list that there has been extensive coverage in the 
past on how much money it takes to have a "good" D, that being the $20K rule. 
 For those who don't know the $20K rule is price of car plus price of repair 
equals $20K.  Most owners on the list agree this is a pretty good rule of 
thumb.  Now, if you wish to have a better than good D, then anything you 
spend over $20K will get you closer to a great or excellent D.  By the time 
your total investment gets to $30K+, you will have yourself a great D, which 
could or could not be nicer than a DMC Houston refurb car depending on what 
you want.  That is my outlook on the scenario anyway, hope it helped.  

Regards,
Darren Decker
#5000


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 21:08:11 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean pricing

In my experience the difference between the so-called 20K rule and 
30K for a sorted-out DeLorean is all in labor. If you can and do all 
or most of your own work, the 20K mark is reasonable. I've seen 
people easily hit the 30K mark who do none of their own work, and 
either pay the major vendors to do it right OR pay local mechanics 
less per hour, but several times over to figure it out. 

As in anything there are always exceptions (the occasional lemon vs. 
the occasional fantastic deal), but these are reasonable center-
points. 

If I had paid for all of my OWN labor at even half of what I get paid 
per hour in my "real" job , I'd be way past the 30K mark. Just a 
guess, I've never had the guts to add it all up. But as Dave Stragand 
often points out, we're not in this for the money, but for the 
therapy. 

Another way to think about it is compare the cost over time to buying 
a new $30K car. What will it be worth in 4 years? Even at no 
maintenance you'll be spending 15-20K in depreciation. 

Dave Swingle

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Scott Gardner" <gardners14_at_dml_c...> 
wrote:
> I talked to the staff at DMC in Houston about a year ago, regarding
> their $32,500 "turn-key" cars, and the gentleman basically 
said "We've
> been doing this for a long time, and $30k is what it costs to get a 
good
> DeLorean.  You'll either spend it up front or in repairs."  




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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:51:37 -0000
From: "Christopher Hawes" <chris_at_dml_hawes74.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: DeLorean pricing

I would think that the $32,500 would include the labour for the countless
hours of replacing the OEM parts that are also billed for.

[duplicate quote snipped by moderator]



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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:19:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean pricing

Like so manyh things in life - - it all depends.  In
this case, it depends upon what you call a "good" D. 
It also depends upon how talented you are at fising
things.  

Frankly, for a car of th quality put out by DMC
Houston or the other vendors that do such work, $30
does not seem out of line.  

How much is a warranty worth??  It all depends - - - 

Dick Ryan

[same quote . . . same snip]



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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:23:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: how many ?

If you want a simple answer, it is - - No One Knows. 
At best we are guessing.  

How many?  The most common figure I hear is 6000.

How many on the road (assuming you mean on a regular
basis)?  Many, many fewer than 6000.

How many project cars?  Really unknow.

Dick Ryan
VIN 16867 (on the road!!)


--- "ferdaniraphael <raphael.ferdani_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>"
<raphael.ferdani_at_dml_wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 8583 Deloreans were built ; how many still exist ?
> How many on the 
> road ?...or project cars ?
> Raphael



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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:20:32 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Help needed in FLA

If anyone in the Miami-Ft.Lauderdale area is interested in helping 
out a DMC owner please contact me OFF-list. He needs someone to check 
out a car. 

Dave Swingle - swingle(AT)dmcnews.com




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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:29:43 -0700
From: Mark Noeltner <mark_at_dml_buffalochips.org>
Subject: Re: DeLorean pricing

IMHO, the reason that they quoted $30k is due to labor costs. If you are a
decent auto mechanic and have the time to do your own work I think the
figure is more in the $20-24k range to end up with a car as good as they
sell. If you have to have the stuff done at a shop, the price goes up
accordingly.

Mark N
VIN 6820

[moderator snipped same quote again]



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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:47:07 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Connectors

They were made by a company called Rists who were at the time of the DeLorean's
production owned by Lucas. Lucas are wholly owned by TRW nowerdays although the Lucas
name remains as a brand on Auto parts. I've tried unsuccessfully to locate a source of
these (but admittedly not very hard). There are enough dead lock modules out there... and
probably a fair number of wing mirror switches which use the mating connector. My old
mirror switch got recycled as a test rig for lock modules, which I rebuild for DOC
members (when I can be bothered :-)

Martin
#1458
#4426

"drdhdmd " wrote:

> Does anyone know the manufacturer of, or where I could get the type
> of connectors that are used on the door lock module?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Dave
> 6530




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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:05:54 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: how many ?

[Moderator Note: this post approved because it makes a point, albeit sarcastically.  Because it was intended in humor please don't respond with a math lesson.   -moderator Mike Substelny.]

6511 still exist, 4028 are still on the road, 2483 are project cars 
and 2072 are history.

Come on folks - this is as good a guess as any!

Harold McElraft - 3354

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "ferdaniraphael 
<raphael.ferdani_at_dml_w...>" <raphael.ferdani_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> 8583 Deloreans were built ; how many still exist ? How many on the 
> road ?...or project cars ?
> Raphael




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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:06:46 -0500
From: "Dave Sontos" <dsontos_at_dml_sybercom.net>
Subject: Re: Water Pump

Just one thing... Try not to break off any bolts!

Dave Sontos
vin 02573
----- Original Message -----
From: <kenndeal_at_dml_attbi.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 1:00 AM
Subject: [DML] Water Pump


> Installing a new water pump tomorrow. Any recommendations
> on gasket sealers and anti-seize compound for the Delorean?



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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:10:15 -0500
From: "Jeff" <webmaster_at_dml_88-mph.com>
Subject: RE: NEW BTTF Series Premieres March 15!!!

Actually, fyi.. this is going to be a re-airing of the original show
that lasted only for twenty-six episodes and originally aired on CBS
Saturdays. With David Kaufman as the voice of Marty McFly and Dan
Castellaneta as the voice of Doc Brown.  The only place it will be NEW
to, is FOX.

Kind of like when I get a new car.. it's new to me because I haven't
owned it before. 

-Jeff
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian McCool [mailto:bjmccool_at_dml_attbi.com] 
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 2:26 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] NEW BTTF Series Premieres March 15!!!

Here's the actual link to news about the new BTTF cartoon series. 

http://www.foxkids.com/emailers/latest.html

The other link takes you to a different website. You were close Robert.
Don't forget it starts March 15.



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