From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1429
Date: Friday, March 21, 2003 8:39 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

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There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Coolant air bleed kit?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

2. Re: Fan fixes: Which one?
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>

3. New VIN list and production chronology uploaded
From: "ksgrimsr" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>

4. Delorean Mid-Atlantic Club Spring Social Update
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

5. Re: Re: Fan fixes: Which one?
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>

6. RE: New VIN list and production chronology uploaded
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com

7. John Delorean on E! True Hollywood Story 3/28
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

8. Re: Fuel Octane
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

9. Turn signals not working!! ASAP
From: "netym89" <delorean_at_dml_telus.net>

10. Clarification of the Coolant Self Bleeding Kit
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

11. RE: Polyurethane bushings
From: Steve Deichman <swdeichman_at_dml_yahoo.com>

12. Re: New VIN list and production chronology uploaded
From: vahottub_at_dml_aol.com





Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:08:56 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Coolant air bleed kit?

Just because a person isn't handy with tools doesn't mean they 
shouldn't understand the consequences of their decisions. If people 
choose to install the bleeder kit they must understand that it is 
really only a band-aid, the underlying problem still remains and will 
probably get worse. If an owner isn't handy (and many aren't) there 
are still ways to get the leaks fixed. As for getting stuck the best 
way to make sure it won't happen is to fix the car the right way in 
the first place! People that ignore symptoms and never go to the 
doctor aren't making good decisions, by time you are "carried in" it 
is usually much harder to treat, costs more, and takes longer. Same 
goes for your Delorean. If you think it is expensive to maintain the 
cooling system find out what it will cost when you overheat your 
engine and have to rebuild it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound 
of cure besides many of us that are "handy" enjoy working on the car, 
it's paying for the parts that we don't always enjoy.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, dherv10_at_dml_a... wrote:
> David, I will agree with you to a certain extent. But, Everyone 
isn't as good 
> with tools and bleeding as you and I are and some don't like messing 
with 
> wrenches at all. 
> This is like the Hot Start relay, when DMC Joe jumped on me because 
of 





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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:46:30 -0000
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: Fan fixes: Which one?

Todd & group

I presented this same question to Bob Zilla and here is his reply,

"The latest generation of FanZillas do not use the Fan Circuit 
Breaker at all.  It's not needed when a Series-2  FanZilla is used. 
If any FanZilla owners have further questions they are welcome to 
email me at Zilla DeLorean_at_dml_aol.com 
Bob Zilla 

Thanks for the heads up. 
You are welcome to post my remarks if you wish. 
Bob"

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Todd Masinelli <tmasin_at_dml_m...> wrote:
> [re: FanZilla]
> > not requireing any modifacations to the wiring except
> > upgrading the circuit breaker
> 
> This is something I'm wondering about after installing a FanZilla 
this past
> weekend.  Doesn't FanZilla completely bypass the fan breaker (not 
the one
> leading to the 3rd and 4th speed relays, but the one that goes to 
the fan
> relay and the fan fail module)?  It's not something I ever recall 
seeing
> mentioned here on the list, but between looking at the wiring 
diagram and
> actually removing the breaker to test, I'm pretty convinced 
FanZilla doesn't
> use that breaker for anything.  Considering the hot feed from that 
breaker
> is what appears to have fried my last two fused wire jumpers, this
> information would have convinced me to buy a FanZilla much sooner!
> 
> _______________
> Todd Masinelli
> VIN 6681




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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:38:00 -0000
From: "ksgrimsr" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>
Subject: New VIN list and production chronology uploaded

With the new edition of the DOD having been compiled, I have also 
had a chance to assemble an updated VIN list and production 
chronology. You can find the materials on the DMCNews web site at 
www.dmcnews.com/faq/n_chron.htm

With this latest release, the production statistics that I computed 
for the available data probably regressed slightly and may not be as 
sound. The reason is that the statistical methods assume the data 
samples are uncorrelated (i.e. that all the VINs collected were 
collected at random and that this randomness results in a uniform 
sample density across the entire VIN space). Because the VIN list 
now includes a lot of data from some of the company records that 
have been discovered, the assumption of uncorrelated samples no 
longer holds. In many cases the company records cover a "batch" of 
sequential VINs, for example, and this results in the distribution 
not being uniform. This is especially the case since there are more 
records available for the '81 cars than for later cars.

The VIN list now contains over 3500 cars in it. As usual there are 
several entries that have discrepancies (for example, the shipping 
manifest indicates it as a grey 5-speed but the DOD record for it 
indicates it's an automatic). Some of the entries with obvious 
discrepancies are marked in the list. Since the data largely comes 
from the DOD, it's best to correct discrepancies at the source by 
submitting corrections to the DOD where possible since corrections 
sent to me end up creating a subsequent discrepancy when the next 
DOD database is merged in.

>From the materials collected thus far, the rarest build combination 
appears to be an '82 black automatic (with black '82 models overall 
being rare). As a whole, '83 automatics are also pretty rare. In 
September '81 the factory cranked out exclusively black cars, while 
in the following month they cranked out exclusively grey cars. In 
August '81 the factory had nearly a completely even distribution 
among the 4 build combinations. The highest manufacturing volume was 
in October '81.

I hope you enjoy the materials.

      Knut





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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:26:33 -0500
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: Delorean Mid-Atlantic Club Spring Social Update

Hi everyone!
 
There are a TON of people e-mailing us about this years spring social!
It looks like it will be a HUGE event!
 
I have updated the club website to include driving directions to "The
Auto Works"
 
If you have not made arrangements to attend, I suggest you reserve a
hotel room now! 
 
For the latest info, and driving directions on this event, check out our
site:
http://www.deloreanmidatlantic.com/events/events.htm#spring
please direct all questions about the event to
<mailto:springsocial_at_dml_deloreanmidatlantic.com?subject=Delorean
MidAtlantic Spring Social> springsocial_at_dml_deloreanmidatlantic.com
 
Kevin Abato
Vin# 1660


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:57:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fan fixes: Which one?

Okay, how do you know if you have a series 2?

-Christian

On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, gullwingmagazine wrote:

> Todd & group
>
> I presented this same question to Bob Zilla and here is his reply,
>
> "The latest generation of FanZillas do not use the Fan Circuit
> Breaker at all.  It's not needed when a Series-2  FanZilla is used.
> If any FanZilla owners have further questions they are welcome to
> email me at Zilla DeLorean_at_dml_aol.com
> Bob Zilla
>
> Thanks for the heads up.
> You are welcome to post my remarks if you wish.
> Bob"



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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:36:22 -0500
From: jwit6_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: RE: New VIN list and production chronology uploaded

Thanks Knut,
Very nicely done.
It's intersting to note the high concentration of low 6000 series cars in the Cleveland Ohio area and its suburbs.
6001 Chesterland
6125 Sandusky
6147 Hudson
6151 Sagamore Hills
Mine, which is 6147, is said to have been sold by Delorean Cadillac in Cleveland. 6151 is under 10 miles away...
Thanks,
Enjoyed it.
Jim 6147

"ksgrimsr" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com> wrote:

>With the new edition of the DOD having been compiled, I have also 
>had a chance to assemble an updated VIN list and production 
>chronology. You can find the materials on the DMCNews web site at 
>www.dmcnews.com/faq/n_chron.htm
>
>With this latest release, the production statistics that I computed 
>for the available data probably regressed slightly and may not be as 
>sound. The reason is that the statistical methods assume the data 
>samples are uncorrelated (i.e. that all the VINs collected were 
>collected at random and that this randomness results in a uniform 
>sample density across the entire VIN space). Because the VIN list 
>now includes a lot of data from some of the company records that 
>have been discovered, the assumption of uncorrelated samples no 
>longer holds. In many cases the company records cover a "batch" of 
>sequential VINs, for example, and this results in the distribution 
>not being uniform. This is especially the case since there are more 
>records available for the '81 cars than for later cars.
>
>The VIN list now contains over 3500 cars in it. As usual there are 
>several entries that have discrepancies (for example, the shipping 
>manifest indicates it as a grey 5-speed but the DOD record for it 
>indicates it's an automatic). Some of the entries with obvious 
>discrepancies are marked in the list. Since the data largely comes 
>from the DOD, it's best to correct discrepancies at the source by 
>submitting corrections to the DOD where possible since corrections 
>sent to me end up creating a subsequent discrepancy when the next 
>DOD database is merged in.
>
>From the materials collected thus far, the rarest build combination 
>appears to be an '82 black automatic (with black '82 models overall 
>being rare). As a whole, '83 automatics are also pretty rare. In 
>September '81 the factory cranked out exclusively black cars, while 
>in the following month they cranked out exclusively grey cars. In 
>August '81 the factory had nearly a completely even distribution 
>among the 4 build combinations. The highest manufacturing volume was 
>in October '81.
>
>I hope you enjoy the materials.
>
>      Knut
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>



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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:34:21 -0500
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: John Delorean on E! True Hollywood Story 3/28

Thank god for my Tivo!   I have it set up to search and auto record
shows with "Delorean" in them.  Guess what it found!?
 
The E! Channel is re-running the show "E! True Hollywood Story: John
Delorean" a 1 hour show about John Delorean on Friday 3/28 at 2:00pm
(EST...check your local listings)   For those of you who missed the
original 1999 broadcast, and subsequent re-runs, now is your chance to
see it...set your VCR!
 
perhaps, someone (with a tivo) can capture and encode it...  hmmmmm....
;)
 
Kevin Abato
Vin# 16680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:09:49 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Octane

In 1970's car companies tortured existing technology to meet ever
tightening government mandates. First to go of course was high
compression. Then they started moving spark closer to bottom of stroke
(for additional burn in the cylinder). Take my 460's for example: 1969
were timed 10 degrees (also 11:1), 1977 were timed 17 degrees, 1978
were timed 20 degrees. Engine couldn't be dumbed down any further and
was dropped from all consumer autos (not trucks) after that.

According to Martin G's PRV buddy, on their side of pond R30 (my
block) is timed 10 degrees with catalytic converter, 6 degrees without
(please don't open catalytic converter can of worms AGAIN). 6 degrees
seems awfully close for my tastes, so I used 10 as a familiar medium.
May one day experiment with 8 (zero problems with "anything"
clattering now). And since upstroke isn't fighting explosion, surely
get an extra pony or two. 

BTW: does anyone know stock coil voltage? My 40,000 volts would jump
up to .05 no sweat on a cast block. If aluminum conducts OK might be
fun to try same on D, especially timed close to 6 degrees BTC. I do
need SOMETHING to burn.

Bill Robertson
#5939, grounded until I get my right arm back...

 I'm
> a bit curious though why you're running the spark retarded 3
degrees. The
> DeLorean spec calls for 13 degrees advanced and 10 is 3 degrees
closer to
> top dead center. With 89 octane fuel and your hotter ignition system
why not try
> advancing to 15 degrees and see if you notice any pinging. If not,
you'll
> see a bit less fuel consumption and maybe a bit more power. As
seasonal temps go up you may begin to experiance some pre-detonation
though so it's a "play it by ear" thing.
> 
> Bruce Benson




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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:12:56 -0000
From: "netym89" <delorean_at_dml_telus.net>
Subject: Turn signals not working!! ASAP

Hey,
Here is the deal! Car 10250 is going onto the movie scene and I had 
to replace my window motor assembly this morning; 2.5 hours with no 
cuts and bandages!! A little challenging but not bad.
The turn signal on my car just stopped working. The studio needs it 
fixed by Saturday evening. I checked Fuse#4 okay; The emergency 
flashers are working fine. Checked the schematic and this is what I 
think:
1. Check power to Fuse#4.
2. Flasher unit must be working because the Hazard light circuit uses 
it as well.
3.Turn signal switch could be defective.
4. Check pins 5 and 6 for continuity. If not, hazard switch defective.

I need an opinion from somebody on this. What is the most common 
fault found for this symptom.

PS. I like to go back tomorrow to check the car once more.

Emails to: delorean_at_dml_telus.net








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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:25:41 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Clarification of the Coolant Self Bleeding Kit

There are no wrong answers here by anyone in this debate! But just to make 
sure that everyone here is understanding about the the benefits, and myths of 
the the purpose of the Self Bleeding kit, let me put everything into perspective 
for those who are still wondering if they should buy the kit, and just what does 
it really do?


As everyone can already guess, the purpose of the Self Bleeder Kit is to 
automaticly remove any air bubbles that will get trapped in the cooling system 
whenever it is freshly filled with coolant. Now this may not sound like much, 
but when you have 18 feet of cooling hoses and pipes to fill, you'll quickly 
realize that bleeding the system is no easy task. On a traditional front engine 
car, there are typicly only two high points in the cooling system: The 
Thermostat housing, and the radiator cap. Compared with the DeLorean of 
course, which routes hoses up and down throughout the entire car. So 
bleeding the system is no easy task. On other cars, the process is usually 
fairly easy: Remove the bleeder screw/plug, fill with coolant until it runs out of 
the housing, replace the screw/plug, and then top-off the radiator. DeLoreans 
are not quite so easy.

When you've got hoses that have highpoints in both the front, and rear of the 
car, you need water pressure to push those bubbles back to the thermostat 
housing, where you can get them out of the system. And this presents two 
unique problems: 1. when you are bleeding the system, you're taking out 
coolant. If you drain out too much all at one time, the Expansion Tank will 
become empty, and when it becomes empty, you'll suck bubbles back into the 
system, and need to start all over again. 2. It can be a messy process. You've 
got to collect coolant in a clean bucket, and then return it back into the system. 
But you can't pop the radiator cap until the engine is cool. Otherwise you'll get 
the same problem that you'd have if you tried to remove the radiator cap while 
running the car to try and return the coolant directly back into the system. The 
engine heats up, opens the thermostat, and will blow out coolant that you just 
added back in. So when you have something as simple as the Self Bleeder 
installed, it makes you're job much easier, and quicker. Even my mechanic 
states that to fully bleed, and purge the system of all air, they budget in a full 
hour for the DeLorean, unlike other cars.

With the Bleeder Kit installed, All I do is this: 1. Fill the system up with coolant. 
2. Squeeze both hoses on either side of the Water Pump until air bubbles no 
longer appear in the Expansion Tank. 3. Turn the heater all the way up, and 
run the motor until the motor has heated up a little past the 2nd white line. 4. 
Kill the engine, wait for the motor to cool down, and top off the level in the 
expansion tank if nessisary. That's it. But there is another little fact that I didn't 
realize until I started to break out my various manuals to research things for 
this post. Not only does the Volvo 760 with the PRV V6 engine follow these 
exact same instructions for bleeding, but the car even comes with the same 
exact hose setup from the Self Bleeder Kit! Except, Volvo calls this a "Vent 
Hose". In addition, the thermostat housing does NOT have a bleeder screw 
assembly like the DeLorean. The Vent Hose, just like the Self Bleeder hose 
takes care of the air removal from the Cooling System. And both are mounted 
to the highest points on of the cooling system to bleed the air out. So if Volvo, 
who used the exact same engine, and positive pressure cooling system on 
their cars deemed this kind of a set up nessisary enough to install on their 
own production cars, then obviously there is something here that DeLoreans 
should consider, if not follow suit entirely.


HOWEVER, EVERY ONE HERE SHOULD TAKE NOTE OF SOMETHING!

David Teitelbaum is exactly correct when he says that the Self Bleeder Kit 
should *NOT* be used and treated as the end-all, be-all solution for 
overheating problems. If your car is constantly over heating and/or you have 
to keep adding coolant in at ANY interval, then you have a cooling system 
problem that MUST be fixed! Aside from the unessisary expenses of paying 
for additional coolant, there are of course the enviornmental issues, as well as 
poison issues for animals. But specificly, lets take a look at the damage you 
will cause to your car. All these senarios will also involve you overheating the 
motor because you forgot to fill it up with coolant, and thus become stranded, 
and possibly having a blown motor; Best case senario, you've got a leaky 
hose, or pipe under the car. Here you'll have corroded pipes (antifreeze 
trapped between the rubber hose and pipe will rot the aluminium), possible 
frame damage, stained garage floor. A bit worse, you have a leaky hose 
behind the water pump. This will then cause the expose coolant to become 
corrosive, and can start eating a hole thru the aluminium engine block, slowly, 
but surely. Worst case of all, you've got a leaky head gasket, and end up 
running water thru the engine, and rust it from the inside out. None of these 
problems are simple ones, and the replacement costs for the damage done in 
all senarios is far more expensive than the the fees involved to repair the 
original issues to prevent the consequences.


So in the end, I myself would consider the Self Bleeder Hose a nessisary 
upgrade for the car. You may not *technicly* need it if you choose to bleed the 
system the "old fashioned" way. But if there is a better mousetrap available, 
why not use it? BUT, more importantly, properly testing, and verifying that your 
cooling system is in proper working, and DEPENABLE order is indeed far 
more important. The Self Bleeder hose should be regared as more of a tool in 
helping you maintain your car, rather than a fix for it. But I'd still reccomend it 
to everyone on the list here.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> Just because a person isn't handy with tools doesn't mean they 
> shouldn't understand the consequences of their decisions. If people 
> choose to install the bleeder kit they must understand that it is 
> really only a band-aid, the underlying problem still remains and will 
> probably get worse. If an owner isn't handy (and many aren't) there 
> are still ways to get the leaks fixed. As for getting stuck the best 
> way to make sure it won't happen is to fix the car the right way in 
> the first place! People that ignore symptoms and never go to the 
> doctor aren't making good decisions, by time you are "carried in" it 
> is usually much harder to treat, costs more, and takes longer. Same 
> goes for your Delorean. If you think it is expensive to maintain the 
> cooling system find out what it will cost when you overheat your 
> engine and have to rebuild it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound 
> of cure besides many of us that are "handy" enjoy working on the car, 
> it's paying for the parts that we don't always enjoy.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, dherv10_at_dml_a... wrote:
> > David, I will agree with you to a certain extent. But, Everyone 
> isn't as good 
> > with tools and bleeding as you and I are and some don't like messing 
> with 
> > wrenches at all. 
> > This is like the Hot Start relay, when DMC Joe jumped on me because 
> of




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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:30:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Deichman <swdeichman_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Polyurethane bushings


do you have a suggestion on shocks (front and rear)
steve 10005
 jwit6_at_dml_cs.com wrote:Sway Bar Bushings Front Frame: Summit Racing. Polyurethane. ENS-9-5123G. 19mm $15.69 a pair
I have these installed in my car and they are a direct bolt up replacement.
Jim 6147


"vegascop1" wrote:

>Has anyone out there had any luck in getting to fit any polyurathane 
>bushings in our cars? I took the front sway bar bushings off and 
>they are very sad. I will wait for about a week and then "research" 
>here we come. Any onfo would be appriciated no matter what bushing 
>you have replaced.
>
>Thnx for any help!
>
>Ski 4649
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>


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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:15:09 EST
From: vahottub_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: New VIN list and production chronology uploaded

In a message dated 3/20/2003 5:32:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com writes:


> www.dmcnews.com/faq/n_chron.htm
> 

10486 is now mine, I am Scott Stiens located in Washington DC suburb of 
Alexandria Virginia.  My plates are classic Virginia plates reading 
"STIENLS."

It is just as your list has it, Grey five speed.  It has only 15K on it, and 
is in mint condition.  Was in airhanger of retired United pilot.  Sat and 
sat, needed all new rubber parts.  But is super clean, and runs very well!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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