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Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1522
Date: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:41 PM

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There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: My no start situation...
From: "Harold McElraft" <>

2. AW: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?
From: "Elvis Nocita" <>

3. Phil Haro
From: "Joe Thome" <>

4. "Bruce, Almighty" connection
From: Josh Haldeman <>

5. Re: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?
From: "Harold McElraft" <>

6. Re: hard start
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>

7. Re: hard start
From: "Harold McElraft" <>

8. Re: My no start situation...
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>

9. 5w30?
From: "thomaspaulmccoy" <>

10. RE: Parts for a sad ebay DMC-12
From: "Scott Gardner" <>

11. Wet ignition problems
From: "content22207" <>

12. Bosch ignition wires
From: "content22207" <>

13. Re: 5w30?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>

14. Re: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?/5w30?
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>

15. Re: 5w30?
From: William T Wilson <>

16. Re: Re: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?/5w30?
From: Mark Noeltner <>

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:15:25 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <>
Subject: Re: My no start situation...

Your problem is most likely in a component that is exposed in the 
engine compartment. I am suspecting two possibilities. The fuel pump 
is not running because the RPM pickup on the coil is not making a 
good connection or, more likely, the voltage increase relay in the 
engine compartment needs to be removed and reinserted or replaced. 

This relay is often overlooked and can cause a hard start if it is 
not supplying the increased voltage to the coil when the starter 
motor is turning. The connections on the relay are all exposed and 
removing and reinserting it can assure a good contact. Check the 
blue/yellow wire connection down by the starter motor too. This is 
the voltage supply wire going to that relay. Sometimes that plug-
connection can become contaminated. Smearing a little "bulb grease" 
on the connections will keep moisture off of them. It is probably a 
good idea to check and clean all the connections on the ignition 
resistor while you're at it.

Check and clean the coil wires at the coil connection. A 
little "bulb grease" on the connections will help keep the moisture 
out too.

Harold McElraft - 3354


Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:31:22 +0200
From: "Elvis Nocita" <>
Subject: AW: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?

I don't think that a real expert would suggest you to use
synthetic oil in this engine. It wasn't designed for that and would never
benefit of that oil. I also never heared about 10W30 oil. Isn't 10W40
more common in the states like it is here in Europe ?

Simply don't buy the cheapest and don't pay extra because you buy it in
a neat plastic container which already costs half of the oils price itself.

Elvis & 6548 with 7 liters 10W40

O.K. guys,  I've spent quite a bit of time looking through the archives
regarding the correct weight oil to be used in our cars. The overwhelming
majority of experts in our midst recommend using 10w-30 under most
conditions. Even the majority of Volvo guys say exactly the same thing with
regard to the PRV. However, I was cruising through my copy of the DMC
Workshop Manual and found a disturbing disclaimer under "Recommended
Lubricants, Fluids and Capacities" (Section A:05:01) It states: "THE USE OF
The average temperature up here in Boston during the summer months can vary
from 65 to 95 degrees. They suggest in the manual that the 10w-30 only be
used in the event of hard cold weather starting. I've been considering using
the 20w-50 synthetic in accordance with their recommendation. Anyone want to
shed some light on this?
Vin 1559


Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:22:07 -0700
From: "Joe Thome" <>
Subject: Phil Haro

To: Phil Haro,

Phil, that's a beautiful picture of your car on Page 29 of the Winter 2003 "deloreans". If you are part of this list, I'd appreciate it if you'd contact me off list. I live only 75 miles from you and would like to e-mail you.

Many thanks.

Joe Thome

VIN 6467 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:13:44 -0400
From: Josh Haldeman <>
Subject: "Bruce, Almighty" connection

Went to see "Bruce, Almighty" last night...there was a scene in it where 
the town, ("Buffalo") was rioting.  They appear to have used the back 
lot at Universal Studios for the scene, which, as we all know, was made 
famous by the BTTF movies!  

Pretty cool from the DeLorean nerd perspective. (haha)

Josh Haldeman
VIN 5102
VIN 15964


Message: 5
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:06:45 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <>
Subject: Re: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?

I suspect the reason there is so much suspicion and confusion about 
this topic is because most the information we get on the subject is 
from the folks that sell oil and, the manuals we have are making 
references and using information that is extremely outdated.  
Certainly, since the DeLorean was manufactured, considerable 
advancements have been made in lubricating technologies. I have 
personally fretted about this subject until I got some engineering 
information from a petroleum engineer friend some years ago and then 
did some reading on the subject.

There are many factors that go into recommendations for an engine 
lubricant. The engine tolerances, operating temperatures, emissions, 
oil capacity, circulating efficiencies in the engine just to name 
some. But the goals are proper flow, protection at high and low 
temps, and cleanliness.

Getting to the bottom line  The DeLorean engine should use 40 
weight oil. Whatever W you want to use for winter or cold weather 
starting should be based on your local conditions. In Houston 10W-40 
works most of the time. In the Northeast (NJ) I use 5W-40 Synthetic. 
I would say for most locations and using conventional oil, stay with 

Actually there are probably 16 or so specifications one may want to 
review when deciding on an engine lubricant. However, you need not 
be that discerning if you stick to major brands like Shell, 
Valvoline, Pennzoil, Exxon, Havoline, etc. and yes, full synthetic 
lubricants are far superior to conventional oils.

My personal experience - when I lived in Houston I drove a DeLorean 
everyday for ten years and over 80,000 miles I used 10W-40 Exxon. My 
petroleum engineer friend worked for Exxon and he showed me that, in 
convential motor oils, the add-pack was everything and only the 
majors had the quality control to do it right. The oil and filter 
was changed every 3-6,000 miles depending on when I had the time, 
etc. However, today I use full synthetic 5w-40 and change the oil 
once a year. Last year I put about 7,000 miles on the oil.

The filter is probably as important as the lubricant. Don't use 
discount brand filters  there is a real difference in quality here. 
The original Purflux, or Purolator, Bosch, Wix, or NAPA Gold is 
best. I personally do not like Fram. I use NAPA Gold 1085 (a cross 
with the Purolator L14670) because it is a large filter (I have the 
45 degree elbow on the oil sender) and I like the larger filter 

Harold McElraft - 3354


Message: 6
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:38:42 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>
Subject: Re: hard start

I would first suspect worn parts in the ignition system. With 23,000
miles worn plugs, old cap and rotor, breaking down ignition wires can
all contribute to hard start. If these parts haven't been replaced or
are more than 10 years old I would start with them. Also inspect the
wires at the white ballast resistors on the firewall on the left side
and the relay just below them. Make sure everything is clean and
tight. After the ignition system then look at the fuel system. The
next time you have to start it cold squirt JUST A LITTLE starting
fluid (ether) in the intake. If it starts right up then there may be a
problem with the fuel pump, pickup hose, cold start valve, wiring etc.
Don't think you are going to fix this by twiddling some adjustment,
look for the problem and fix it. Troubles that seem to go away by
themselves always come back at the worst time possable! When the motor
is running check the frequency valve for buzzing, a dead Lambda makes
the car run like sh-t.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, "Jonas P" <Delorean3543_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> About a week ago my 1981, auto tranny, vin 3543, with 23,000 miles 
> developed a hard start problem when when the engine is cold. It is 
> taking as long 3 to 5 minuntes to get her going. Its then takes about 
> 2 minuntes of warming up befor it is ready to run well. I got this 
> car about a year ago after the last owner let it sit for 10 years,(so 
> I was told) at that time it had 12,000 miles, this is my daily 
> driver. After alot of parts and updates it had the same hard start 
> problem it has now. How ever it seemed to "fix its self" so to speak 
> after 5 or 6 weeks. Well its back again, a motor head friend of mine 
> thinks it is a problem with the mixture and that it is running rich. 
> Any input on how to fix this would be great, Thanks in advance
> Jonas
> vin 3543


Message: 7
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:42:18 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <>
Subject: Re: hard start


It sounds like you are satisfied with the way it runs after it warms 
up. If that is true, then the problem is most likely the cold start 
valve - or, because it now does not run correctly when it first 
starts, the warmup regulator. I assume hot-starts are OK?

The cold start valve is easy enough to check, just follow Hervey's 
instructions, however, the regualtor is another thing. You may just 
want to replace it and see, rather than trying to find the special 
equipment for the fuel system to test it.

Harold McElraft - 3354


Message: 8
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:52:37 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>
Subject: Re: My no start situation...

Generally on a car that has trouble starting after a rain or high
humudity conditions it has a secondary ignition system breaking down.
If it has been a while replace the spark plugs, cap, rotor, ignition
wires, and maybe even the coil. Like the hard cold start inspect the
wires at the ballast resistor and the relay just below, everything
must be dry, clean, and tight. The fuel system usually is not affected
by rain unless you are getting water directly into the fuel! A problem
with the pick-up hose or the fuel pump will generally cause you grief
in nice weather AND bad weather. Since there is no harm in inspecting
it do it anyway and replace any parts that are wrong, deteriorated,
broken, etc. The alternator has no direct effect on starting of the
motor. The trouble is if the ignition wires are breaking down inside
the wells where they attach to the spark plugs you will never see it.
As the spark plugs wear the gap increases increasing the required
voltage needed but the wires break down and the voltage leaks out
before it can get to the plugs. Don't skimp on these parts, get the
best you can, the best place is a Delorean vender or next choice a
Volvo dealer. Don't go to the local parts store, you may not get the
best quality there. 
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, "TalksToGod" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> This is the second time this has happened to me. I parked my car
> outside overnight and it rained/misted. Today when I tried to start my
> car, it would not start (at least I fixed the roof leaks :-)  ) but
> there was gas getting to the motor. This has happened to me before and
> I thought the hose in the fuel tank was poping up above the fuelline
> so I shook the car, tried to start it again and started. I figured
> this because I was low fuel   -This time I am also low fuel but I
> checked the hoses in the tank. I know there is fuel getting to the
> motor, it is just a matter of flooding it in order to find out. Given
> that there is fuel going to the motor, it is obvious that the
> electical system is faulty here. I checked over all wires in the
> engine compartment, cleaned everything, nothing was wet it seemed. The
> alternator is rebuilt with new brushes only a few weeks ago now, so I
> know its not that. The car starts/runs fine any other time its resting
> in the rain. Now, my question is-does anyone have any advice to
> prevent this from happening, is there a point of entry where water can
> get to any electronics and cause this that I am just missing? To
> clarify, I checked all fuses, all relays, and electical connections
> within the engine compartment such as resistor etc. Thank you all very
> much.


Message: 9
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:36:19 -0000
From: "thomaspaulmccoy" <>
Subject: 5w30?

What are the disadvantages of using 5-30?

GM specifies 5-30 in my new car (37K miles so far - no probs).  If 
one was looking to boost DMC performance, wouldn't 5-30 be a decent 

--- In, "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_l...> 
> I would only reccomend using 20w50 in temperatures that are 
constanly above 90F both day AND night!

I second that statement... stay away from 20-50!  A few high revs or 
redlines in cold weather & you're going to see an increase in 
driveway oil spots.


Message: 10
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:31:14 -0400
From: "Scott Gardner" <>
Subject: RE: Parts for a sad ebay DMC-12

    Good point, and I agree with you on the "$20,000" rule, but I think
it bears mentioning that the rule only applies over a limited range of
purchase prices, and of course it depends on whether you want a
"needs-nothing" daily driver, or you want a concours-quality
restoration.  Personally, I think that $17,500 is on the low side for
completing a typical $2500 DeLorean, but there are quite a few out there
selling for $18k or $19k that would need little if any additional
investment to get them up to the level of a looks great/runs great daily
driver.  There are even a lot that sell for $14k to $15k that probably
don't need five or six thousand in parts to complete them, unless you
happened to buy one that turned out to be 1,000 miles away from needing
a complete engine and tranny rebuild.
	But your point remains valid, that a low-dollar initial
investment just means that you're going to have to fork over that much
more to get the car up to any given level of appearance/reliability.  I
would add that you're generally better off in the long run saving up the
money and buying a car that someone else has completed all or most of
the work on already.  More than once, I've bought a car and paid less
for it than the total of the receipts for work that had previously been
completed on it.  In those cases, it's almost like I got the car for
free, and the restoration at a discount!

Scott Gardner

-----Original Message-----
From: fivetwofive [] 
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: [DML] Parts for a sad ebay DMC-12
Just remember the $20.000 rule,when it comes time to buy a 
Delorean,whatever you pay for it,is the difference,between,what it 
cost to buy,and what it will COST YOU to finish this car,meaning 
that,if you pay for example $2500.00 for this car it will cost you AT 
least $17,500 or MORE (not including labor) to complete this car.Hope 
this puts some understanding,into your head before you get into this 

Just think about this ONE question before you decide to buy this car:
WHY DID the last person restoring,this Delorean GIVE UP on this car? 
Something to think about.



Message: 11
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 02:57:38 -0000
From: "content22207" <>
Subject: Wet ignition problems

Water plays havoc with high tension electricity -- everything from the
coil forward. Will create a short or ground very quickly.

If car won't start, put a timing light on the coil output. You've got
to have fire there for any hope of starting.

You can use a hair dryer or heat gun (not too close!) to dry things out.

On a clear day, with car running gently soak various ignition
components using thin stream of water from garden hose. If moisture's
getting in, this will find it.

I was promised new cap & rotor by previous owner. Think now it was
factory (Renault) original. Car had bad "English Morning" syndrome.
Also would not start in even light rain. Hitting distributor with
garden hose killed every time (was only component susceptible to
water). In all fairness to cap & rotor, could have been terminal end
of ignition wires too. Moot point -- new cap, rotor, and wires make my
car startable virtually under water. Funny thing is the old components
had no visible cracks or deterioration.

Bill Robertson


Message: 12
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:11:17 -0000
From: "content22207" <>
Subject: Bosch ignition wires

I'm not too keen on Bosch spark plugs (am running HEI), but their
wires really are nice. Are spiral core, not solid, which is
recommended for high voltage coils. Are also less expensive from
DeLorean vendor than parts house cross reference.

Bill Robertson

>As the spark plugs wear the gap increases increasing the required
>voltage needed but the wires break down and the voltage leaks out
>before it can get to the plugs. Don't skimp on these parts, get the
>best you can, the best place is a Delorean vender or next choice a
>Volvo dealer. Don't go to the local parts store, you may not get the
>best quality there.
>David Teitelbaum
>vin 10757


Message: 13
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:52:25 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>
Subject: Re: 5w30?

It is dangerous to compare your daily driver to the Delorean. For one
thing (very important!) the Delorean has mechanical lifters not
hydraulic. The relationship between the camshaft and the tappets is
very important in the selection of a motor oil. Another critical
factor is the clearances built into the motor and another is the type
of piston. It is always best to go with the manufacturers
recomendation but with today's improved oils as long as you purchase a
premium branded oil close to what was recomended you will be fine. You
will not find much of a performance increase in the selection of an
oil, look for longevity. Change the oil once a year with the filter
and you will be fine. More important than the selection of the oil is
to NEVER overheat the engine!!!!!!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, "thomaspaulmccoy"
<thomaspaulmccoy_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> What are the disadvantages of using 5-30?
> GM specifies 5-30 in my new car (37K miles so far - no probs).  If 
> one was looking to boost DMC performance, wouldn't 5-30 be a decent 
> solution?
> --- In, "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_l...> 
> wrote:
> > I would only reccomend using 20w50 in temperatures that are 
> constanly above 90F both day AND night!
> I second that statement... stay away from 20-50!  A few high revs or 
> redlines in cold weather & you're going to see an increase in 
> driveway oil spots.


Message: 14
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 05:21:35 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: Re: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?/5w30?

--- In, "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> There are many factors that go into recommendations for an engine 
> lubricant. The engine tolerances, operating temperatures, emissions, 
> oil capacity, circulating efficiencies in the engine just to name 
> some. But the goals are proper flow, protection at high and low 
> temps, and cleanliness.

Absolutely right on all counts here.  Not every engine is going to respond the 
exact same way to every oil. And yes, lubricating technology has come quite a 
ways since the D first hit the pavement. Both in preventing thermal 
breakdown, and in cleaning detergents. A great example of that is my car. The 
first couple of oil changes that I did around the 3500 or so mile marks, the oil 
was dark, and nasty. Since using regular conventional oils, my oil is now 
much cleaner, an has gone from a nasty, almost black, to a dark gold color 
when changing. And it runs much smoother. As far as what brand to use, the 
most reccomended brands that I've heard are Castrol, Mobile, and Exxon 
based lubricants, as they come from Gulf Coast wells. I've heard that 
Pennzoil, and Valvoline are not quite as good, because they originate from 
Pennsylvania wells that produce a higher parrafin (wax) content. Of course I 
would assume that strict refinement would remove the wax just the same, but 
who knows. Since this is speculation, take it as just that. But if anyone has any 
online resources that could point out differences in brands, please share the 

Manufacturer specifications when it comes to performance/emissions/etc... do 
indeed play a HUGE part in how the determine what types of oil to use in their 
motors. Many GM and Ford engines as it seems state to only use 5w30 oil. 
This surprised me quite a bit too as the vehicles that use this weight such as 
Grand Am/Prix and Explorers have engines that are designed for 
performance in either driving fast, or towning. But looking at newer 
technologies such as more efficient engine/transmission cooling, better 
filtration, and more efficient internal lubrication, and combustion management 
computers, engines won't break down, nor dirty the oils are quickly. Hence 
they can run these lighter oils to decrease emissions, and increase 

And efficient filtration plays a HUGE roll as well. Learning from past 
experience with my DeLorean, I only buy filters from the manufacturer. Purflux 
for the DeLorean, and Motorcraft for the Ford (which they sell _at_dml_ Wal Mart 
now). FRAM is junk from several sources I've seen online, and from the 
photos you can see in the archives of one that failed while it was on my car.

Now when it comes to the DeLorean, I myself play it safe, and stick with the 
factory guidelines. I *might* be able to get away with a lighter oil weight, but 
what I run works just fine. Going by what the owners manual says, and by how 
my engine responds, I'm doing just fine. BUT, I do not see a need to ever go 
below 10w40. The kind of temperatures that warrant that light wieght will 
probably have such inclimate weather, that your car is going to be in storage 
anyways. But then again, it just depends upon what your engine likes. If you 
live in an area where it gets cold enough in the evenings, and the motor runs 
easier on 5w40, then yes, I'd say by all means, use it. Going over 15w40 is 
unessisary too, unless you live in the Southwestern Mojave, and drive your 
car hard in 100+ temperatures. If it gets cold, and you've got 20w50 in you 
DeLorean, she will be pretty crankywhen you start her up cold. And once you 
do get her started, the engine will not respond properly. Hit the gas, and shell 
rev up slowly. Don't give her enough gas, and she'll lug. Plus when running 
20w50, I've noticed a great deal more oil spattered on my air filter from the 
breather hose, and more soot in the tailpipes.

The biggest unresolved debate is going to be regular vs. synthetic. Engines 
designed specificly for synthetic have smaller sized oil passeges that are 
designed the the smaller, more uniformed HC chains in synthetic. Regular 
oils will not flow as well, and can hence impeed lubrication in these engines. 
regular engines can go either way. I do just fine with regular, conventional oil, 
so I stick with it. Plus the higher cost is a factor too. 7 quarts of syntheic gets 
pretty expensive. Granted though, you don' have to change it as often. If 
anyone here can relate some experience in switching their PRV over to 
synthetic, and can give some details on changes that they've noticed, I've love 
to hear!

vin 6585 "X"


Message: 15
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:08:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: William T Wilson <>
Subject: Re: 5w30?

( Moderators note: This subject can be debated endlessly and enough has been said now and in the archives. Unless something entirely new comes up I'm killing the thread. )

On Wed, 28 May 2003, thomaspaulmccoy wrote:

> What are the disadvantages of using 5-30?

Similar to the disadvantages of 10W40.  Oil with a very wide viscosity
range has more chemicals in it and depends on them more.  As a result it
is more prone to breaking down and suffers more as it gets contaminated, 
and the lubrication qualities are less at the temperature extremes.  A 
5W30 oil is really 5-weight oil with thickeners in it to make it act like 
30-weight oil when hot.

Most engines spend most of their running time hot, so the net effect of a
wide viscosity range is that your oil is basically just not as good during 
normal to hot conditions.
Depending on your climate 10W30 (cold), 15W40 (moderate to hot) or 20W50
(very hot, like Florida or Texas in the summer) are good oil viscosities
to use.

Note that this does not apply to synthetic oils.  Synthetic oils can have
wider viscosity ranges without any of the problem of ordinary oil.  If you
are using fully synthetic oil (which very well may be what GM is using in
your new car) 5W30 is better than normal 10W30.  But stay away from plain 

> was looking to boost DMC performance, wouldn't 5-30 be a decent
> solution?

Oil thickness doesn't have that much of an impact on performance.  It can 
improve your fuel economy, though - that's probably why GM is specifying 
the thinner oil (even if it isn't as good for the engine long-term).


Message: 16
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:15:33 -0600
From: Mark Noeltner <>
Subject: Re: Re: Conflicting Advice. Who's right?/5w30?

At 05:21 AM 5/28/2003 -0000, you wrote:
> But if anyone has any 
>online resources that could point out differences in brands, please share
>links!  And check out the discussion forums.
Everything you ever wanted to know about oil, filters, and other types of
lubricants. Do searches for old discussions, or ask your questions. There
is also a forum that posts used oil analysis results. This can really point
out a bad oil.

Mark N
VIN 6820
--was running 10w-40 Castrol, now running Mobil 1 15w-50


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