From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1551
Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 4:55 AM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. JZD mentioned on Dateline
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink_at_dml_yahoo.com>

2. Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----Noooooo don't do it!
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

3. Re:Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----Noooooo don't do it!
From: "Palatinus, Joe" <jopalatinus_at_dml_davidson.edu>

4. RE: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----but wait - theres more
From: jordan rubin <nuttenschleuder_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. DeLorean One
From: Joshua Shain <knightoftheslightlyangulartable_at_dml_yahoo.com>

6. London Ontario Meet PICS!
From: <ken_at_dml_odoc.ca>

7. Re: Marv Stein's "Show & Shine" (London, Ontario)
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

8. Starter heatshield replacement ,How?
From: "John Elgersma" <delorean_at_dml_telus.net>

9. Gullwing BMW
From: "Ian Foster" <ian_at_dml_netvigator.com>

10. Re: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank...
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>

11. Re: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank - Sorry for being so long winded here but...
From: "George Ryerson" <TRyerson_at_dml_neo.rr.com>

12. Re: Gullwing BMW
From: Warren Turkal <wturkal_at_dml_cbu.edu>

13. Oil Pressure WAS Marv Stein's "Show & Shine" (London, Ontario)
From: "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com>

14. Re: DeLorean One
From: "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com>

15. RE: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----but wait - theres more
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

16. Parts Used
From: "Steve" <sales_at_dml_eletronix.com>

17. Re: Starter heatshield replacement ,How?
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

18. Re:Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----Noooooo don't do it!
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>

19. Low end hesitation update
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>

20. RE: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank - Sorry for being so long winded here but...
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>





Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:51:25 -0000
From: "erikgeerdink" <erikgeerdink_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: JZD mentioned on Dateline

The other day, Dateline did a story on Botox and the legal issues 
that are going on with that "product".  Anyway, they showed some 
video footage of John Delorean walking out of a court house back in 
the early '80s.  About 10 seconds worth.  The lawyer that defended 
John Delorean is the same Lawyer that defended OJ Simpson and the 
people who manufacture Botox. 

Erik




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:05:08 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----Noooooo don't do it!

Since the Delorean uses a continuous injection system (CIS) it is
usually easy to clean the injectors and have them work like new. In
pulse type (where there is an electrical plug on the injector) there
is a valve inside that turns the injector on and off. This type is
much harder to clean and usually requires replacement. In the use of
ANY fuel additive you must always be careful that you don't
contaminate the  catalytic converter. The additive MUST say safe for
use in cars with a converter. In general all of the auto manufacuteres
take a dim view of additives for the oil, coolant, and fuel. The
gasoline has enough detergent to keep a system clean and if it is
moderatly dirty with use it will clean it up. Pouring cleaner into a
system with problems is only going to cause more. The cleaner is more
for preventive use than for a cure. I have been able to "fix" (clean)
injectors with terrible spray patterns, leaking, dribbling, wrong
opening pressure, etc. It does require the injector tester-cleaner and
mineral spirits. It also takes a few minuets, I work on it until I see
a good pattern, the correct pressures, and I hear it "sing". I agree
in some cases it is nice to "match up" a bunch of injectors with very
close opening pressures but on a CIS system it isn't that important.
More important is to MAKE SURE that you have the correct injector with
the right part #. It is possible someone changed 1 or more and didn't
get it right! Once you clean the injectors, tune up the engine, and
fix the vacuum leaks the car won't hardly hunt at all!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> Jordan, I take a different approach on the injectors since I work
with fuel
> distributors and fuel systems all the time for Deloreans and I will say
> other exotic cars. I use a chemical called Berrymans B12 that you
can buy in
> almost any auto store or at Wal-Mart. Sometimes it's best to let a
sleeping
>




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:38:26 -0400
From: "Palatinus, Joe" <jopalatinus_at_dml_davidson.edu>
Subject: Re:Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----Noooooo don't do it!

I put some of that STP stuff in my car when my fuel pump was making
noises, The stuff seemed to quiet the fuel pump, so I started putting
one in every time I stopped for gas on a long trip, cause I was worried
about my pump dying. I ended up with about 1/4 of a tank of unusable gas
that just stayed at the bottom, and when my fuel level got to 1/4 of a
tank the car died.  I emptied out the stuff from the tank with a siphon
pump and it didn't even smell like gas anymore. I don't think the pump
was sucking all the stuff through to the engine.  I never would use that
trash in any car ever again, I think it can do nothing but harm, maybe
it could clean the injectors out if you dip them in a bottle of the
stuff, but I would never put it through the fuel system.

Joe P.
VIN 17167 6808



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: jordan rubin <nuttenschleuder_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----but wait - theres more

Should it be a given, that regardless of milage or
driving conditions, etc.  that after 21 years its safe
to say that the fuel injectors are in need or cleaning
or replacment.

   Delorean.com sells the injectors for about 30$ a
pop
well, it says injector nozzle and there are six of
them... i believe the are them.   delo # 102742

Im not trying to suggect any bad maintenance practices
here, think of this as a hypothetical question.

It seems all of the negative comments that was raised
about bottles injector cleaner was mostly about the
sludge and varnish clogging the injector.  and some
had concerns about the injector seals.

Would it be good idea / bad idea in a scenario, to
burn down a few tanks of gas with injector cleaner, if
indeed you had every intention of removing the
injectors for cleaning and / or replacment anyway.

I imagine removing a 21 year old injector along with
its seal , would pretty much mean you would have to
have new injector seals on standby regardless.

so barring the injectors and their seals.  would fuel
injector cleaner still present a problem, as a means
to clean through the fuel system as opposed to
replacing it.

thanx

jordan 11613 



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joshua Shain <knightoftheslightlyangulartable_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: DeLorean One

 Hi All,

 I was just wondering if anybody on the list has past experience with DeLorean One in Chatsworth, CA. They have had my DeLorean for several months now and have not even completed the checkout. Is this normal?

 Thanks.

-Joshua



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:39:08 -0400
From: <ken_at_dml_odoc.ca>
Subject: London Ontario Meet PICS!

I put some of the pics I took from the show...
 
Some great shots when my buddy was standing out the sunroof of my grand
prix on the highway!
 
And an explanation (in pictures) of why my car was unable to make the
show ...
 
Not an accident. just not running
 
Ah well .. check it out
 
http://odoc.ca/dcs_london.htm
 
 
Ken
005541
ken_at_dml_odoc.ca
www.odoc.ca <http://www.odoc.ca/> 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:02:59 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Marv Stein's "Show & Shine" (London, Ontario)

Did you solve the oil pressure problem?

Harold McElraft - 3354

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "James LaLonde" 
<deloreandmcxii_at_dml_e...> wrote:
> I was so concerned with my oil pressure last post I really just 
> mentioned the show in passing.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 03:41:45 -0000
From: "John Elgersma" <delorean_at_dml_telus.net>
Subject: Starter heatshield replacement ,How?

When I removed my RH manifold and installed a new gasket, I also 
removed the starter heatshield at the time. The asbestos was so 
disintegrated that I left it for the time-being. I just ordered a 
new one from PJ Grady which is made out of stainless steel and is 
slightly different. Can the heatshield be reinstalled without 
removing the exhaust manifold or the starter??





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:53:07 +0800
From: "Ian Foster" <ian_at_dml_netvigator.com>
Subject: Gullwing BMW

Hi DMCers,

Have y'all seen any images of the BMW M12. It is a gullwing of sorts. It
looks a bit like a Honda NSX. The lower doors open out, the top glazed part
opens up like a gullwing.

Cheers,        IAN (Hong Kong)
**************************





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:26:35 -0500
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank...

I think the moral of the story here is that your DeLorean should be *driven*.  A bottle
of STP cannot reverse of the effects of months or years of storage.

When I first received my car, it surged horribly at idle as the previous owner had
driven less than 1000 miles per year for several years.  After daily driving for a few
days the surges diminished and within 2-3 weeks receeded completely.

The enemy of your car is Time, not Miles.


Gus Schlachter
VIN #4695
Austin, TX



David Teitelbaum wrote:

> ...... Once you clean the injectors, tune up the engine, and
> fix the vacuum leaks the car won't hardly hunt at all!
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:03:07 -0400
From: "George Ryerson" <TRyerson_at_dml_neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank - Sorry for being so long winded here but...

> Should it be a given, that regardless of milage or
> driving conditions, etc.  that after 21 years its safe
> to say that the fuel injectors are in need or cleaning
> or replacment.

Sorry for being so long winded here, but here are the facts as to what fuel
injector cleaners really are, and why. Also some information on what
gasoline is made of and how it relates to fuel injector cleaners.
Fuel injector cleaners consist of common solvents which for the most part
are already present is gasoline. Contrary to popular belief, gasoline is not
a single substance but consists of a mixture of light hydrocarbons. The
largest components of gasoline are Heptane, Hexane, Octane ( this is where
the term "Octane Rating" comes from by the way ), and Cyclohexane. There are
also smaller amounts of other things such as Benzine, Toluene, and Xylene.

Benzine, Toluene, and Xylene are commonly used elsewhere as solvents and to
a certain extent will dissolve deposits in fuel injectors. This is not the
reason that they are included in gasoline, but IS the reason that they are
put in small cans and sold as "fuel injector cleaners".

Additionally, just for information, there are trace amounts of Naphthalene,
which is commonly known as "Moth Balls", present is gasoline.

The final components of gasoline, which are present most everywhere in the
United States, are called oxygenating compounds. These things aren't related
to the topic of injector cleaners, but are interesting to show how the gas
companies distort the truth. These so called oxygenating compounds are
usually nothing more than common Ethanol, which is present in beer, wine,
and booze. IMHO the real reason for putting Ethanol in gasoline is simply
that including Ethanol, which dissolves water and itself dissolves in
gasoline, is to permit the gasoline companies to include a certain amount of
WATER in the gas in a way that consumers cannot detect. It may be hard to
believe that the gasoline companies would do this, but indeed it is a fact
and the presence of water can be confirmed analytically.

The thing to note here about fuel injector cleaning additives ( the "better"
ones at least ) is that they almost always composed of things that ARE
ALREADY IN gasoline. The things that are already in gasoline are the
Benzine, Toluene, and Xylene mentioned earlier. The sum total of Benzine,
Toluene, and Xylene in gasoline can be fifteen to twenty percent of the
total gasoline ingredients.

Since up to twenty percent of the gasoline is ALREADY the same ingredients
that are sold as "fuel injector cleaners", there is little sense or benefit
in adding an additional eight ounces or so to ten or more gallons of gas in
the fuel tank. Doing so in the case of an eight ounce can of "fuel injector
cleaner" being poured into ten gallons of gas already in the tank, adds only
about three percent more "fuel injector cleaner" to what is already there.

Other things commonly sold as "fuel injector cleaners" are even worse than
what is described in the previous two paragraphs. This type of "cleaner" is
nothing more than alcohol ( Ethanol or Methanol ) which will have almost
zero effect on crud deposits in car fuel systems.

Sometimes the ingredients are spelled out on cans of this stuff in plain
language ( Toluene, Xylene, Methanol, etc. ), but mostly, if the ingredients
are listed at all, scientific terms are used to make it hard for the average
customer to figure out what is really in them.

Sorry for being so long winded here, but I just hoped to set the record
straight on fuel injector cleaners.

George Ryerson, Akron Ohio

'83 Yellow painted "D"






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:54:44 -0500
From: Warren Turkal <wturkal_at_dml_cbu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gullwing BMW

On Friday 20 June 2003 12:53 am, Ian Foster wrote:
> Hi DMCers,
>
> Have y'all seen any images of the BMW M12. It is a gullwing of sorts. It
> looks a bit like a Honda NSX. The lower doors open out, the top glazed part
> opens up like a gullwing.
>
> Cheers,        IAN (Hong Kong)
> **************************

You got links?
Warren



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:04:04 -0000
From: "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: Oil Pressure WAS Marv Stein's "Show & Shine" (London, Ontario)


> Did you solve the oil pressure problem?

Yes:
I stared at the engine for awhile... then I stared at the oil guage. 
Then I took at wrench to head... and I stopped caring if the oil 
pressure was 3 psi low.

Just kidding.

Acutally it's running at about 3 oclock (30 psi) at idle and 1:30 
oclock at 3500rpm (55-60 psi)... so I think it's okay now. Just for a 
bit on the road i got REAL REAL low. Maybe She didn't like me taking 
her through Detroit.

What do you think?




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:10:43 -0000
From: "James LaLonde" <deloreandmcxii_at_dml_excite.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean One

>  I was just wondering if anybody on the list has past experience 
with DeLorean One in Chatsworth, CA. They have had my DeLorean for 
several months now and have not even completed the checkout. Is this 
normal?
> 
>  Thanks.
> 
> -Joshua

Slow too, eh? I thought they were just rude and expensive. 

What made you take your car there? What are you having done to it 
(just curious). 
ANY vendor or repair shop should be able to get your car in far under 
one month... let alone "several"
I would give them a call.
Correction: **I** would go pick up my car and send it to DMCenter 
Garden Grove or DMCHouston (or PJ Grady if you're in that direction)

I've heard of and had numerous bad experiences with D1 - suffice to 
say.

-James LaLonde 4009




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:32:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----but wait - theres more

I guess it is time for injector cleaner afficiandos to
get into this.

If, for example, (here in the states) you burn Chevron
gasoline, you are getting a bit of injector cleaner in
every tankful.  Techron.  Since I run turbos, I burn
the Chevron Supreme most of the time.  

Then, every spring, as I prepare for my first long
trip ( minimally needing two tankfuls of gas), I put a
bottle of Techron into the tank just as I fill up for
the trip.  This is because my car sits for 7 months
every winter.  Even then, I do use Stabil and I run
the car once a month long enought to have the fans
come on.

I have never experienced any problems with the
injectors, seals, or any other part of the fuel system
which could in any way be due to the use of injector
cleaner.

Bottom line:  Use of any product should be predicated
upon a number of factors.  Blanket condemnations or
recommendations should always be taken with a grain of
salt.

No connection to Chevron - just my zwei pfennig.

Dick Ryan



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:09:51 -0000
From: "Steve" <sales_at_dml_eletronix.com>
Subject: Parts Used

  Is there a going price for used but good condiction  quarter 
pannels, hoods, bumpers, ect. What is the going rate on nonworking 
cars,  that is kinda hard to answer.
 Thanks

Steve
 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:47:51 -0000
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: Starter heatshield replacement ,How?

"John",
  - On Winged1, I removed the tattered remains of the heat 
shield, and couldn't face the prospect of the same configuration going 
back in.  There are a number of "thermal protection blankets" out 
there ... I chose ThermaCool.  They make a little blanket that wraps 
around the starter, and is retained by a couple of band clamps.  The 
procedure for installing these blankets is to partially remove the 
starter, wrap the blanket, and then reinstall the starter.  Very 
simple, and it seems to work great.  I know that you are interested in 
keeping your car "stock", but this may be a wise upgrade (IMHO).

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Elgersma" <delorean_at_dml_t...> wrote:
> When I removed my RH manifold and installed a new gasket, I also 
> removed the starter heatshield at the time. The asbestos was so 
> disintegrated that I left it for the time-being.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:08:46 -0000
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>
Subject: Re:Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank ----Noooooo don't do it!

I would recommend against soaking injectors in strait cleaner.  I 
tried doing this 2 years ago with my original injectors.  I left them 
in the cleaner for a few days and when I pulled them out they were 
all coated in rust.  There wasn't any water in with the cleaner, just 
strait cleaner.  Also keep in mind I really didn't know what I was 
doing back then, but still head this advise.

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC-6960



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:15:47 -0000
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>
Subject: Low end hesitation update

As an update to the hesitation issues with my car, 5 of my injectors 
have a poor spray pattern.  These were brand new in spring of 2001 
when I rusted my original ones.  I'm going to have them 
professionally cleaned with the bosch tool or whatever it is (my 
uncle has the thing) next friday.

My car also seemed to be running perfectly when analyzed.  It had .02 
CO emmitions, 0 of the P emmitions (I honestly dont remember what 
that one is called, I just know there is a P in it). Thats also 
without a CAT. The timing was dead on.

One thing I'm still noticing is my frequency valve is usually pretty 
quiet under normal idle.  But every now and then, seemingly out of 
nowhere, it buzzes as loud as it can and the idle goes bazerk.  What 
I'm assuming is happening is the car is running lean via the 
frequency valve (but not too lean), then fully richens it up just at 
random.  There is no envoronmental change.  I dont know why it would 
suddenly enrich the mixture to that extent. I'm almost suspecting it 
could be a bad LAMBDA computer causing that.  Thoughts?  (remember, 
new plugs, wires, cap/rotor, fuel filter, O2 sensor).

When my fuel injectors get cleaned, I will once again (3rd time since 
owning my car) completely pull the intake manifold with intention of 
replacing every single o-ring on top of this engine.  The o-ring for 
the fuel distributor and the gasket for the air meter housing will be 
replaced as well.  Since I'll be pulling all of this off, is there 
anything else people can suggest I check/change while I'm at it?  
(Water pump was done in 2001). Thanks.

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC-6960





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:49:12 -0700
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Fuel injector cleaners in gas tank - Sorry for being so long winded here but...

George, Excellent reply and I appreciate the time to write the statement.
B12 Chemtool or what I call Berryman B12 is Toluene in a concentrated form
which as you know will hasten the process of dissolving or cleaning the
tank. Everyone is naturally correct that the cars need to be driven, but
since most of them aren't our daily drivers we have to contend to what goes
on. I don't use the chemical that much, unless I feel I'm possibility
getting a little sluggish and maybe this mechanic in the bottle will help a
little. But I feel the main thing is if you put it in the tank just to make
you feel like your doing something good, then drive it out and don't leave
high concentrates there. We have about 8 O rings in the fuel distributor and
some chemicals may make them swell. Just be careful.
John Hervey




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/