From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1651
Date: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:27 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Just a tought
From: "Jack Stiefel" <jack_at_dml_sacketmansion.com>

2. Fall Foliage Tour
From: "Mr. Woop Ass" <sephiroth_at_dml_merriman.com>

3. New owner help
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

4. WARNING - eBay auction fraud!
From: "Fedeli, Joe (DSCP)" <Joe.Fedeli_at_dml_dla.mil>

5. Re: Costs for Driving to Pigeon Forge
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

6. Re: Cleaner/Sealer
From: "sonnyvr2000" <sonnyvr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Re: Swapping Clutch on a 5 speed?
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

8. Re: Recover Dash and instrument hood or buy NOS?
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: Re: Costs for Driving to Pigeon Forge
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: Recover Dash and instrument hood or buy NOS?
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

11. Re: Swapping Clutch on a 5 speed?
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:14 -0400
From: "Jack Stiefel" <jack_at_dml_sacketmansion.com>
Subject: Just a tought

I have been looking at my garage for a while and had an idea...  I own a
1988 Jaguar XJ-SC (that's Cabriolet not Convertible) I have in great
condition.  For those not sure what this is, please look at my site
www.sacketmansion.com/jaguar .  I was wondering if anyone on the list would
be interested in a trade.  Don't flame me, it is just a thought.  The Jag
has the v-12 and is a very rare car.  I was kind of looking for a good
condition painted car with an automatic.  I am not looking at a serious
fixer-upper or junkyard save.  If anyone is interested email me off list.

Thanks in advance, and please again don't flame me on this one, just another
hair brained idea

_______________________________
Jack Stiefel - Radio Cape Vincent
Live Internet Radio at Radio Cape Vincent
Take a trip to the historic General Delos Sacket House
Proud member of the Audiorealm Radio Network


[Moderator's note: Jack's e-mail address is jack(at)sacketmansion.com]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:01:40 -0400
From: "Mr. Woop Ass" <sephiroth_at_dml_merriman.com>
Subject: Fall Foliage Tour

Ladies and gentlemen,

    I was wondering if there is a date yet for the fall foliage tour IV?
I understand that it is in october, but want to be able to have enough time
to tell my boss: "Hey! I cant work on XX days!"  ;)

Thanks!
Have a wonderful day!

Rex
Proud owner of Sunstar's ;)




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 04:01:36 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: New owner help

Spend some quality time with wiring diagram & tech manual. You'll
discover car isn't engineered as exotic as it looks. And familiarity
gained will serve you well when car does act up. Am very lucky that my
initial trips went smoothly. Know the little car pretty well now, but
didn't then. Side of the road is not best place to start understanding
how your DeLo works.

Am a big fan of doing your own mechanicing. Takes very deep pockets to
pay someone else. And "professional" mechanics (NO, that isn't a
slight against Rob Grady. Have found him invaluable myself) sometimes
do job less carefully than you would yourself. Of course you need to
know your limits. But don't be afraid to push them reasonably.

Use all resources available. Would be silly not to. In addition to
online groups are: owner clubs, generic foreign car mechanics,
DeLorean gurus (including Rob Grady. Buy something before picking his
brain), fellow owners, magazines and newsletters (predecessors to
online groups?).

You'll notice many owners log thousands of miles in their cars.
Occasionally something breaks, but they quickly diagnose and usually
repair just as fast. Couldn't do this if DeLo's were truly pitiful or
hopeless.
In your immediate situation: next time engine stops, methodically look
for cause. Guarantee there's one waiting to be found. Start by jumping
RPM relay (pic of jumper location on John Hervey's website). If pump
spins but engine won't start, pop out an injector (#3 is my favorite
for accessability) and activate air sensor plate to ensure entire fuel
run OK. If pump doesn't spin, most likely has lost its ground. Could
be as simple as kicking inertia switch on driver's firewall. Problem
could also be in ignition. Ensure high voltage electricity is reaching
plugs (timing light is safe way to do that). Can lay a plug on block
and actually observe quality of spark. A volt meter will tell you if
enough voltage is entering coil (location of DeLorean ignition
resistors subjects their connections to weather).

Are some emissions related issues I can not advise about, but others
on list can. Don't know if they'd actually kill engine or just make it
run badly.

Even when my catalytic converter stopped up car still ran -- barely.

You've bought an old car with issues common to all older vehicles. Of
course you've got some proprietary ones too, but all marques have
those as well. Big difference between old cars and new ones off
showroom floor. Personally, I wouldn't own anything but the first.

Bill Robertson
#5939 (one of 8 vintage cars, ONLY cars, in stable)











________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:44:15 -0400
From: "Fedeli, Joe (DSCP)" <Joe.Fedeli_at_dml_dla.mil>
Subject: WARNING - eBay auction fraud!

I just want to warn others regarding a seller on eBay that is defrauding
eBay buyers.  He is: VFToys.  Currently, Square Deal mediators are
attempting to have him correct it, but he has refused to respond to them or
I as of this current time for resolution.   I purchased a DeLorean model for
$127.50 and he never shipped it.  Money is gone, but I do not want to see
other get burnt.  Today, he just changed his feedback to PRIVATE to cover
the negative postings against him.  He sells many toy cars and other items.
As always, buyer beware...I just do not want others to bid, pay and not get
the item.  Anyone can email me for the highlights if wanted.

Joe   

[MODERATOR'S NOTE: Joe's e-mail address is Joe.Fedeli(at)dla.mil]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:22:55 -0500
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Costs for Driving to Pigeon Forge

I have received a number of inquiries regarding shipping verses driving 
cars to PF.

The cost comparison from the West Coast (LA) is

3 days driving time (each way)  =  5 nights in motel   _at_dml_ $100/night  = $500

Gasoline cost 4400  miles _at_dml_ 20 mpg = 220 gallons x $2.00/gal =         
$440  (gas could be $2.50 gal.!)

Meals, misc. for 6 days  $25 per day =                                   
                 $150

Wear and tear on car(oil change, tires, etc.)  4400 miles _at_dml_ $. 25/mile = 
$110
                                                                        
                                     $1,200

Lost vacation time (unless you like driving)  6 days                     
      (Price ?)
Risk cost of an accident                                                 
                     (Price ?)

If you are planning on bringing a car, using a transporter would be just 
under $1000.

This means you would have about $200 for air fare.  

It all comes down to what your time is worth and whether you want your 
car there.


BOB





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:50:52 -0000
From: "sonnyvr2000" <sonnyvr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaner/Sealer

It never ceases to amaze me that people will ask a question here 
about a part/product/service that they bought from one of the 
vendors. Why aren't you asking them? Warren (and everyone else there)
has always been very helpful over the phone to me and it's a free 
call!

My experience with this stuff has been better than Andy's, but he and 
I are also using it two different ways, too. The instructions on my 
bottle of Cleaner/Sealer are as follows:

"Always wear rubber gloves. Shake well before use. Squeeze directly 
onto a DAMP cloth and rub into the surface of the stainless, going 
the same direction as the grain. Allow to sit for ten minutes, and 
then rinse thoroughly. For a bright shine, polish with a soft dry 
cloth going the same direction as the grain. For heavily soiled 
areas, pre-cleaning is required."

The emphasis on the word DAMP above is mine. I think that is why 
Andy's experience has been less than he expected. Warren told me that 
there were two formulas of this stuff as well, the original factory 
stuff, and an improved formula that they now sell. He also said the 
application instructions between the original and ther new stuff were 
different, so maybe Andy has some of the original stuff.

I'd also add from my personal experience that the bit about shaking 
well and using gloves is not a bad idea. The gritty stuff inside the 
bottle tends to settle to the bottom, I even shake it while using it.

Sonny V.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Michael Fischer" 
<Michael.Fischer_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> Howdy All,
> 
> 	I've got an old bottle of DMC Cleaner/Sealer that I got from
> Houston a while back ... But there's no label on it ..I was 
wondering if
> anyone has any tips on the application of it.  (Or if I should even 
use
> it.)
> 
> Thanks
> Mike
> Vin 17106




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:05:53 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping Clutch on a 5 speed?

Not to start a holy war, but what the hey.. it's been a while. 

I was in a position a few months ago to compare a current-design 
Centerforce Clutch with a current OEM (Valeo) clutch assembly, side 
by side fresh out of the box. As far as I can tell, there is NO 
difference between the two other than the 50 cents worth of gold 
paint on the CF version. The clutch disc, in both cases, carries 
the "Valeo" label ink-stamped right on the facing. All other 
stampings and codings are identical.

A few years ago the CF had some additional flyweights on the pressure 
plate, but Valeo re-designed the plate and the weights don't fit 
anymore. So  - CF just leaves them off. No change in price. 
Centerforce NEVER manufactured their own PP, they have always 
modified, painted, and repackaged the Valeo. I assumed that they did 
something special with the disc facing, but does not seem to be the 
case, at least now. 

So - At this point you may as well go with the Valeo version and save 
yourself a hundred bucks or so. Both are available from the usual 
vendors, I believe. And I'll bet that the stock Valeo is very common 
where Jan lives. 

Dave Swingle 

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_k...> wrote:
> Jan - You needn't remove the engine from the car, but you do need 
to 
> remove the transmission.  With ...

> I had been in.  You can also change the distributor cap and rotor 
at 
> this point if you want to (from underneath).  I hope this helps.  I 
> can give you a step-by-step if you think you need it.
> 
> Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
> Winged1 - with Centerforce clutch!
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Jan van de Wouw <delorean_at_dml_h...> 
wrote:
> > I need to swap my Clutch as af ther 22 years and 41000mi
> > it's slipping under mild to heavy acceleration.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Recover Dash and instrument hood or buy NOS?

Personal thoughts:  If you're into concours - NOS is
the only way to go.  If not . . . . I had ordered a
NOS binnacle through one of the vendors.  I was very
unhappy with it when it arrived.  Moreover, I figured
it would just crack again like the original.  So, I
had my binnacle recovered in leather by the DeLorean
Motor Center.  

It looks awesome - fits in with the rest of the
interior so well that it almost looks stock - won't
crack, etc., etc.  I currently have no cracks in the
dash, but when one appears, I will have the dash done
as well.  I have seen one car that they had done where
the entire interior was done in leather and it was
very nice.  

I know the purists will gag, but it is something for
you to consider.

Dick Ryan
VIN 16867  





--- Dale Schaub <DaleSchaub_at_dml_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I need to replace my dash and instrument hood or
> have them recovered. Has anyone had their dashes
> recovered by www.justdashes.com?  How is their
> quality?
> 
> I will not save any money by going with
> www.justdashes; however,  I am just concerned about
> NOS. I haven't had much luck with NOS. I replaced my
> seat covers two years ago with NOS (someone out of
> Canada--not one of our suppliers) and a year later
> they looked worst then my original seats. That was
> $1,200 down the drain.
> 
> Has anyone replace their dashes and instrument hood
> with NOS?
> How are they wearing? In Arizona sun?
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for
> sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Costs for Driving to Pigeon Forge


--- Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com> wrote:
> It all comes down to what your time is worth and
> whether you want your 
> car there.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NO - NO - N0 - Bob:  It comes down to more than that.

It really comes down to the sheer joy of driving your
DeLorean.  One of the reasons our cars get such a bad
rap from other car afficiandos is because they seldom
see our cars on the road and they assume DeLoreans are
unreliable.  

I can't really argue with your cost analysis other
than to say that I obviously drive faster, get better
mileage and stay in cheaper motels!!!!

Dick Ryan
VIN 16867



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:55:10 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Re: Recover Dash and instrument hood or buy NOS?

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Dale Schaub" <DaleSchaub_at_dml_w...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I will not save any money by going with www.justdashes; however,  I 
am just concerned about NOS. I haven't had much luck with NOS. I 
replaced my seat covers two years ago with NOS (someone out of Canada-
-not one of our suppliers) and a year later they looked worst then my 
original seats. That was $1,200 down the drain.
> 
> Has anyone replace their dashes and instrument hood with NOS?
> How are they wearing? In Arizona sun?
<SNIP>

I'm up here in Vegas, and I can tell you that in less than 3 years of 
being installed in my car, I ruined a 2nd binnacle. Everything was 
fine, and then on Friday afternoon, I noticed a small crack about an 
inch long in the center of the binnacle. By Monday morning, the dash 
was ruined. The crack had streched to both ends. And since then, even 
more cracks have spread out across the top. The dashboard however has 
pretty much retained it's color. I'm sure it's a bit faded, but with 
other interior trim components that already have UV damage, my POV 
could be swayed. The glovebox lid however looked fine at the time, so 
I didn't replace it. Needless to say, it has since become further 
damaged, and where as the dash and other trim peices have faded, the 
glovebox lid has fried to a golden brown.

Now for the past almost 3 years, my car was always parked in a garage 
when not in use, and not at work. Yeah, I'm sure that the sunscreen 
cover from DMC Houston would probably have helped, but it's just too 
much of a pain to get on. Especially durring a desert windstorm. And, 
I also do not nourish/treat the interior panels as much as I know I 
should. It's been a conbination of lazyness, and neglect since I plan 
on gutting/replacing/customizing the interior after my almost 
complete mechanical restoration is finished (inspired by a warped 
dashboard damaged durring installation, among other things).

So if you're going to replace/recover the dash, make sure that you 
include the glovebox lid as well. Regardless of how good a condition 
it may appear in. As for the binnacle, you may want to recover it in 
leather. I've no idea what the original is made from, but it has just 
become brittle as all get out. And if your're going to do the 
binnacle in leather, perhaps you should consider this for the 
dashboard as well.

Just Dashes look like they really do one helluva job going by their 
before/after pics in their online portfolio of work. But seeing as 
how the DeLorean dash is just a simple flat board with notches for 
the glovebox, binnacle, and defrost vents, as compared to the far 
more complicated (and rare) dashes that they repair, it doesn't seem 
worth the cost if it's going to be the same as just buying a new one. 
Plus, I also do not see any advantages with Just Dashes vs. OEM. No 
UV protection for the price. Color matching to "DeLorean Gray" 
shouldn't be a problem according to their website, but you still have 
whatever turn around time you need to wait for the completed 
dashboard to return to you.

As an alternative, try checking around your local area. I found a 
local shop the specializes in interior restorations. They were more 
than willing to answer all my questions, and were even able to show 
me their portfolio of past restorations. Everything from custom rods, 
to award-winning restos. Shop around and see what you can find. If 
the dash isn't physicly damaged or deformed, perhaps you could have 
it nicely recovered for a reasonable price?

That's just my .02, with interest! ;)

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:19:39 -0000
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping Clutch on a 5 speed?

Dave - When I installed my Centerforce clutch, the assembly still had 
the counterweights as a design feature.  As is the case with many of 
the parts that we use for this car (and others), the personal 
preferences are just that.  I am aware that Valeo supplied the basic 
pieces, and Centerforce added to, and modified them.  My understanding 
was that Centerforce used pressure plate springs with a higher spring 
rate, and added the counterweights to reduce the effective pedal 
pressure.  This, according to the literature, provided higher clamping 
forces on the clutch disk without appreciably higher pedal force 
requirements.  If the current Centerforce parts are now identical to 
the Valeo parts, but are more expensive, then you are correct ... save 
your money and buy the less expensive parts.  It would be interesting 
to get the Centerforce version of the current story, just to see if 
they are "blowing smoke".  If talk of clutch configurations starts a 
"holy war", we have way too much time on our hands. ;-)

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
Winged1

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> Not to start a holy war, but what the hey.. it's been a while. 
> 
> I was in a position a few months ago to compare a current-design 
> Centerforce Clutch with a current OEM (Valeo) clutch assembly, side 
> by side fresh out of the box. As far as I can tell, there is NO 
> difference between the two other than the 50 cents worth of gold 
> paint on the CF version. The clutch disc, in both cases, carries 
> the "Valeo" label ink-stamped right on the facing. All other 
> stampings and codings are identical.
> 
> A few years ago the CF had some additional flyweights on the 
> pressure plate, but Valeo re-designed the plate and the weights 
> don't fit anymore. So  - CF just leaves them off. No change in 
> price. Centerforce NEVER manufactured their own PP, they have always 
> modified, painted, and repackaged the Valeo. I assumed that they did 
> something special with the disc facing, but does not seem to be the 
> case, at least now. 
> 
> So - At this point you may as well go with the Valeo version and 
> save yourself a hundred bucks or so. Both are available from the 
> usual vendors, I believe. And I'll bet that the stock Valeo is very 
> common where Jan lives. 
> 
> Dave Swingle 





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/