From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1790
Date: Monday, December 15, 2003 3:10 PM

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. RE: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

2. Re: Water pump replacement (a long one!)
From: "supermattthehero" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

3. Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

4. Storage - Tire Info
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

5. COLD START PROBELMS!!!
From: "Kramer" <jettaman95_at_dml_yahoo.com>

6. wheel color
From: casey barlow <dmc1288mph_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

8. Re: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

9. Corrado and Elvis/car in Eugene
From: "Adam 16683" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>

10. Re: Rear Louver Needed
From: "Robert Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

11. Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: "Tom" <tomcio_at_dml_gtemail.net>

12. Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

13. RE: COLD START PROBELMS!!!
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

14. Re: COLD START PROBELMS!!!
From: "Dave Sontos" <dsontos_at_dml_sybercom.net>

15. Re: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?
From: Peter Lucas <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>

16. Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: "twinenginedmc12" <twinenginedmc12_at_dml_gendreaumicro.com>

17. RE: Re: ALL Calendar orders to be shipped Monday...
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

18. Re: COLD START PROBELMS!!!
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

19. Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

20. Re: ALL Calendar orders to be shipped Monday...
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>

21. Re: Re: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?
From: Michael Paine <mpaine_at_dml_tycomsystems.com>

22. Re: wheel color
From: PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com

23. Re: COLD START PROBELMS!!! (Ignition?)
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

24. Re: wheel color
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

25. Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:05:09 -0600
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?

Well, sisince we are still on this subject I would have to agree that HAND 
WASHING is the best solution. I know how it is though.... your filling up 
and the computerized pump offers that
fantastic car wash (sometimes free) and you look down at your spotted car 
and thing it
will be a good idea.
I have learned that no matter what you do you will end up with spots, 
streaks and smudges
on the car unless you do it by hand.
Stainless just does not act the same way that glass like clear coat does.

SO, my trick is to hand wash the car to rub all the real scum off.
I use wheel cleaner on the rims, and sometimes on the body if it is very 
dirty.
Then I use a soft sponge or very soft bristle brush and car wash soap and 
scrub it down.
THEN - (here's the trick) I drive down to the car wash and use the SPOT FREE 
RINSE.
All that a "spot free rinse" is, is nothing more that filtered water.
Like a giant Brita filter. That is why it is low pressure.
This eliminates most of the hard water stains.
Then I drive home or take a detour on the highway for a quick dry off.
NEXT STEP - I like to use the pre-cut Window Glass Cleaner Wipes by Amour 
All.
I clean the glass and all the body panels by hand using these.
They work great at getting all of the dirt and spots off.
Ok, here is the secret recipe.
Try to find some EAGLE WET & SHINE.
This is a clear coat sealer.
It is a clear liquid. Spray it on and wipe it with a terry cloth.
You will notice immediately that the surface become slick as whale poop.
You can run your fingers accross the metal with them grabbing or leaving 
streaks.
This helps elliminate the finger prints.
I lay it on thick around the door.

Now for the black stuff.
First clean off the louvers and all the "black" stuff.
Go get a little red bottle of "Mother Black Restore" and use a terry cloth 
to apply.
Becareful not to let it run onto the metal, it is greasy!
This will take all the white ashy look out of the louvers, engine cover, 
pontoons,
side vents and trim - looks like new instantly.
Re-apply this each time for long life.

*NOTE - NEVER PAINT your louvers, engine cover or side bits.
These are texturized plastic molded peices, it will never look the same if 
you paint them.

Now you have a shiney clean car and you will love the luster.
This will last you a few outings.
As you know after you have owned one of these cars and driven it on a daily 
basis like I do,
the "clean" lasts for a few hours and it is ruined.
There is no answer to this problem other than painting.
However, I have considered the concept of clear coating the metal.
I wonder how that would look?

SUMMERY:
* Amour All Glass Cleaner Wipes
* Eagle Wet & Shine
* Mother's Black Restore
* Terry cloth towels
* 6-pack of your favorite beverage

- Videobob
VIN# 5278
http://www.dfwdmc.com







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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:10:23 -0000
From: "supermattthehero" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Water pump replacement (a long one!)

Interesting you mention that you had difficulty finding the bolt in a
hardware store.  Of all the bolts and screws I have removed and
reinstalled on my DeLorean, I have never been able to find an exact
match for any of them at a hardware store.  By exact match, I mean
same thread, thickness, length, and color(for exterior screws).  I
always ended up ordering them from one of the vendors.  I suppose
there may have been a few instances where a different thread or type
of bolt could have been used, but well, I didn't want to have to
replace them later if they would break off or come loose because the
thread was not fine enough or the metal was too soft.  

Only with a DeLorean...


Matt
#1604


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, rbrogren_at_dml_a... wrote:
> This is a thank you message, but first let me give some background:
> 
> Back in May my D decided to dump the coolant right as I pulled in to
a Volvo 
> dealership lot (while picking up my car that was in for regular
service). I 
> didn't have time to tow it back home so I asked my favorite mechanic
there to 
> take a look and I would call back. When I came back they had
replaced one of the 
> short hoses on top, at a cost of $146.70 but it still had a leak,
"probably 
> the water pump". I was quoted $1250 to $1500 to replace the pump. I
had heard 
> and read here about the tribulations of that job and since there was
no way I 
> would pay that much I decided to do it myself. For various reasons I
didn't 
> have time to get to it until about a month ago. In the meantime I
had been 
> studying the manual, parts manual, service bulletins and although
they gave me a 
> pretty good idea what I was in for I ended up several times just
standing there 
> staring at the jumble of components, hoses and fuel lines to figure
out where 
> to start. In desperation I started to search the arcives and came
across two 
> excellent articles that proved to be invaluable! At the end of the
disassembly 
> process the engine compartment looked like a x-mas tree, with
connection tags 
> on strings all over the place. The reassembly process is going as
well as can 
> be expeted -- slower than molasses, but I don't mind the time because I 
> certainly don't want to redo it!
> 
> The only problem (so far) is that I broke off one of the 7Mx35
socket head 
> bolts on the back of the waterpump housing when I disassembled tho
old one to 
> get the back casing for the new pump. Have you ever tried to find
that type and 
> size of a bolt? Impossible locally and that includes mayn well stocked 
> hardware stores, industrial fastener dealers and Volvo and other
import shops! Almost 
> two days wasted running around until I gave up and called Rob.
> 
> Now to the kudos:
> A sincere thank you to Dave Swingle and Peter Lucas for their
write-ups and 
> pictures in the Tech Archives. Without the help of what they wrote I
would 
> probably have been stumped several times and probably made a number
of mistakes! 
> And a great big thank you to Rob Grady for his invaluable advice during 
> several phone calls and for their rapid deliveries of the parts!
(Now, if the USPS 
> Express Overnight snail mail would deliver the 7mm bolt I can get
the intake 
> and all the rest of the spagetti reinstalled!)
> 
> I have said it before: Without the DML experts and archives and your
favorite 
> parts suppliers, the Delorean would just be a memory! 
> 
> Roger
> VIN 1074
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:21:33 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update

I know the novelty of cornering is a bit alien to you guys in the US 
(sorry, couldn't resist), but a loose TAB, even half a turn, affects the 
handling massively. Bottom line: The rear end of the DeLorean should be 
tight and positive, if it isn't and the back end gives that feeling of 
following the front in a kind of lazy shifting, you're bolts need 
tightening - and nothing will cause a bolt to bend or break faster than 
being loose to start with.

I am in Toby's camp here. We're all attempting to cure the symptoms as 
curing the disease means redesigning the rear suspension (I know about 
Pearce-design's solution, but not many of us want to go that far) - but 
the Inconel bolts are a far better solution than putting something there 
to catch it if/when it breaks. My everyday car has something like this - 
it's a bracket that sits under the exhaust downpipe as this exhaust 
always fails in the same place. Instead of making a better exhaust, they 
put a bracket to catch the downpipe when it falls off. But an exhaust 
won't cause an accident.

Martin

>
>I will have to check with Dave as to how old my bolts are (possibly NOS) but I
>know that the brackets have been on this car since the late 80s. This year (my
>1st yr of ownership) I have put on over 17k (rather aggressive) miles and no
>problems/bendings of the bolts.
>
>  
>





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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:42:53 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Storage - Tire Info

While I was on All-Data this afternoon I noticed this Shop Bulletin 
covering tire storage. Since I was ready to put my D away for a 
while I found it interesting, especially since I have some fairly 
new Michelins.

Harold McElraft - 3354

Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC 
ALL MODELS
STORAGE OF VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH HIGH PERFORMANCE TIRES

High performance tires are typically made with nylon overlay that 
enables the tires to achieve the designated speed rating and also 
enhance tire handling capabilities.

Nylon material has memory retention and when stored for long periods 
of time without movement, may flatspot. With this in mind, the 
following steps should be taken to avoid flatspotting when vehicles 
equipped with high performance tires are not used for periods of 
time.

^ New vehicles should be stored with 44 psi in the tires. If the 
vehicle is operated, the air pressure should be reduced to the 
recommended operating pressure and then increased to 44 psi prior to 
being placed back into storage.
 
^ All vehicles stored for periods longer than 30 days, should be 
stored with 44 psi in the tires and be moved several feet at least 
once during each 30 day period so that a different portion of the 
tread contacts the ground. 





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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:32:22 -0000
From: "Kramer" <jettaman95_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: COLD START PROBELMS!!!

Dear List,
  The recent snow and bad conditions have left me in a problem. My 
car will not start even when I try a battery start from another car. 
I had to charge the car up a few days ago and then drove it for an 
hour or so. Then drove it the next day and had no problems. Then I 
tried today and it wouldn't start. Should I get a new battery or wait 
until the weather dries up and try again. PLEASE HELP!!
    Sincerly,
          Kramer
          ~10610




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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:10:39 -0800 (PST)
From: casey barlow <dmc1288mph_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: wheel color

Hi,  I want to repaint my wheels,anyone know the paint
code for the light colored wheels, if there is one? I
want to bead blast them and repaint them with
base/clear. Will this work? Thanks Casey  VIN# 3270

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/



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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 05:43:39 -0000
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: TOBY-TAB update

Michael (and other interested individuals) - As you may be aware, I 
have started a new company, using the inventory from Darryl 
Tinnerstet's Specialty Automotive as the basis for moving forward in 
performance and aftermarket upgrade parts for the DeLorean 
automobile.  One of my top priorities is to initiate a third batch 
of TOBY-TAB's.  I am negotiating with the manufacturer right now on 
price and lead time for delivery.  The next batch will have a couple 
of minor design changes to allow for easier installation on some 
cars.  This was based on some feedback from previous purchasers.  I 
expect the negotiations to be completed this week, and I will let 
those interested know when the new bolts will be available, and what 
the final price will be.  Thank you all for your support in my new 
endeavor.

Toby Peterson
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.DeLorean-parts.com

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, MichaelRPack1_at_dml_c... wrote:
> 
> Where can I order a set of the "tabs'" for a 1981 & 1983 DMC?
> 
> Sincerely,
> Michael Pack




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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:08:01 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?

All car washes apply wax, they have to, to dry the car with high
pressure air the water has to bead up. It is one of the bigger scams,
for the extra money for "wax" you get to see some lights lite up. The
problem with car washes is if the brushes are not properly taken care
of (kept well wetted and replaced when worn) dirt gets embedded in the
nylon bristles and then is rubbed against your car. These are the
swirl marks you can see under certain lighting conditions. This can
happen even when everything is taken care of. If your car is very
dirty with mud that will cause the swirl marks as it gets rubbed off.
This is the reason you see on many car washes 2 attendants with
brushes washing off as much of the heavy dirt and salt as they can.
For a car that you care a lot about and since it isn't that big you
should try not to go into the car washes. 
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> One of the previous owners of my car had taken it through car washes
> with brushes.  End result was a ton of swirl marks in the stainless that
> were very obvious when close up.  It took me some time and patience to





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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:26:01 -0000
From: "Adam 16683" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Corrado and Elvis/car in Eugene

Corrado and Elvis, you both post about viewing a car in Eugene. Is 
this the same car? I live in Hillsboro which is close enough to 
Eugene. I will look at the car(s) for you but I am somewhat of a 
novice. I am a beginner but i have had my Delorean for almost two 
years now. I can at least tell you if it runs normally, has idle 
problems, etc. I will do my best with the frame inspection. 

If someone more experienced will look at the car that would be 
better. But i will check it out on monday or tuesdsay, and get back 
to you.

Adam Price
Hillsboro, OR

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "corradodelorean" <corrado63_at_dml_h...> 
wrote:
> Hey,
> my name is corrado i am from germany.
> 
> is there anywone close to this dealer?
> it sells a delorean.
> my ask:
> someone knows the dealer?
> someone can look at the delorean for my?
> 
> by a mistake on ebay, I must buy it :-(
> 
> her the adress
> 
> Eugene Executive Auto Sales
> 800-481-2114
> 541-342-2111
> sales_at_dml_e...
> 
> Eugene, Oregon
> United States /Portland 
> 
> on ebay:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&item=2446314190
> 
> thank you for your assistance
> 
> corrado




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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:40:18 -0000
From: "Robert Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Louver Needed

I thought you might want to know about this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34204&item=2448587235



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, jimbo0946_at_dml_a... wrote:
> Thanks for your condolences.  The damage actually isn't all that
bad.  Only one of the louvers is damaged and it is only the edge of it
that has splintered from where they guy stood.  It happened in New
Brunswick, New Jersey. It should be repairable.
> 
> Jim




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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:14:16 +0100
From: "Tom" <tomcio_at_dml_gtemail.net>
Subject: Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update

Hi Shannon and all interested

Again, speaking of the bolt's quality - agreed. It's just a bit pricey
Speaking of the whole setup, well, let's say that it's not perfect. But what
you are suggesting (the bracket)  looks like a joke. I'm sorry to say this,
but I honestly thought that it was some kind of a joke when I saw the
pictures. By looking at it I would say that the only thing this bracked does
is catch the bolt in case it brakes in half. Honestly, how much force can
this bracket support? 3 pounds... maybe. Probably less. What it might do is
cause the epoxy on the frame to crack becase it will trasfer some force to
the 'lip' on the frame which is not designed to carry any load.
I'm sorry but I must strongly disagee with this bracket design. In my
opinion it might do more bad than good.

BTW, My previous DeLorean (vin 06298)  had well over 60k miles on it when I
sold it. It had OEM TABs and they were straight and tight. No brackets, no
replacement bolts, no improvements of any sort.

Take care
Tom Niemczewski
tomcio_at_dml_gtemail.net
vin 6149 (5-speed)
Save the dream so you can live the dream.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Shannon Yocom" <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
>
> If speaking of the bolt itself - agreed.
> If speaking of the setup as a whole I would like to respectfully disagree.
> I would think the "Bauerle Bracket" is better.
> http://www.wcnet.org/~delorean/page_layouts/Bauerle_Brackets.html
> No, not just because I have it installed on my car but for the fact that
it
> supports the other end of the bolt and can act as a "catch" IF need be.
More info
> here: http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/tabolts.html.
<SNIP>




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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:41:32 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update

I think it was also discussed in the past that the bolt itself, under 
normal movement, will pivot and the end of the bolt will move around - 
and beng held captive by this bracket may either affect the movement of 
the rear arm (and I for one think there MUST have been some reason it 
was done in this apparently poor way - Lotus is not known for making 
mistakes in this sort of thing!) or simply not work at all.

I've done several sets of TABs and finding a strait OEM bolt is 
somewheat of a novelty. Here'a an example

http://www.delorean.co.uk/DMUK/newparts1.html#tabs

(that particular bolt was cut out, but is laid out in the photo in its 
original shape)

As for price... well, I personally think $60 is damn good value for 
insurance alone. How manu potentially dangerous design flaws can be 
corrected with such a small and simple outlay?

Martin

PS We don't supply those bolts to the US.

Tom wrote:

>Hi Shannon and all interested
>
>Again, speaking of the bolt's quality - agreed. It's just a bit pricey
>Speaking of the whole setup, well, let's say that it's not perfect. But what
>you are suggesting (the bracket)  looks like a joke.
>
>





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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 05:40:31 -0800
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: COLD START PROBELMS!!!

Kramer, When you say it won't start, do you mean it won't turn over or it
turns over but won't start.
John Hervey
www.specialtauto.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Kramer [mailto:jettaman95_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 6:32 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] COLD START PROBELMS!!!


Dear List,
  The recent snow and bad conditions have left me in a problem. My
car will not start even when I try a battery start from another car.
I had to charge the car up a few days ago and then drove it for an
hour or so. Then drove it the next day and had no problems. Then I
tried today and it wouldn't start. Should I get a new battery or wait
until the weather dries up and try again. PLEASE HELP!!
    Sincerly,
          Kramer
          ~10610



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:15:13 -0500
From: "Dave Sontos" <dsontos_at_dml_sybercom.net>
Subject: Re: COLD START PROBELMS!!!

Make sure your door lights are not staying on and killing the battery
overnight. Go out in the dark and see if the lights are still on by looking
in the door seams. Also check your glove box light, make sure it isn't still
lit.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kramer" <jettaman95_at_dml_yahoo.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 9:32 PM
Subject: [DML] COLD START PROBELMS!!!


> Dear List,
>   The recent snow and bad conditions have left me in a problem. My
> car will not start even when I try a battery start from another car.
> I had to charge the car up a few days ago and then drove it for an
> hour or so. Then drove it the next day and had no problems. Then I
> tried today and it wouldn't start. Should I get a new battery or wait
> until the weather dries up and try again. PLEASE HELP!!
>     Sincerly,
>           Kramer
>           ~10610
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:00:36 -0500
From: Peter Lucas <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>
Subject: Re: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?


On Dec 14, 2003, at 8:05 PM, Video Bob wrote:
>
<<<snip>>>
> Now for the black stuff.
> First clean off the louvers and all the "black" stuff.
> Go get a little red bottle of "Mother Black Restore" and use a terry 
> cloth
> to apply.
> Becareful not to let it run onto the metal, it is greasy!
> This will take all the white ashy look out of the louvers, engine 
> cover,
> pontoons,
> side vents and trim - looks like new instantly.
> Re-apply this each time for long life.
>
> *NOTE - NEVER PAINT your louvers, engine cover or side bits.
> These are texturized plastic molded peices, it will never look the 
> same if
> you paint them.

Well, this is one of those religious things, but FWIW my recommendation 
with
respect to the "black stuff" is exactly the opposite:

Properly clean, prep, and paint all the black trim, and NEVER, EVER put 
any
kind of greasy gunk on it.  That stuff is like a drug--looks fine if 
you keep it up,
but you are "hooked" and any lapse of attention will quickly lead to 
awful
appearance as the greasy coating weathers off and/or attracts dirt.

The original surfaces were painted (well, certainly the louvers--they 
are fiberglass,
not textured plastic--and I suspect the plastic trim was painted as 
well). Use the
correct paint and do it right and it will look as it was intended, and 
will degrade
gracefully when dirty.

--Pete Lucas
   VIN #06703




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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:20:40 -0000
From: "twinenginedmc12" <twinenginedmc12_at_dml_gendreaumicro.com>
Subject: Re: TOBY-TAB update

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_d...> 
wrote:
> I think it was also discussed in the past that the bolt itself, 
under 
> normal movement, will pivot and the end of the bolt will move 
around - 
> and beng held captive by this bracket may either affect the 
movement of 
> the rear arm (and I for one think there MUST have been some reason 
it 
> was done in this apparently poor way - Lotus is not known for 
making 
> mistakes in this sort of thing!) or simply not work at all.
..

I, for one, disagree.  Lotus may not be known for making mistakes, 
but I don't believe there was a reason (at least not a mechanically 
sound one) for the poor design of the Delorean trailing arms.  It's 
appallingly badly done, and has virtually no chance of not suffering 
some kind of damage during normal use.  I believe it's either a 
mistake, or some compromise to save on manufacturing costs.  If the 
joint were meant to rotate in more than one axis, it should have been 
a ball joint.  A bolt subjected to bending and shear stress at the 
same time, that's just bad form.

Rick.






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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:53:12 -0500
From: "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: RE: Re: ALL Calendar orders to be shipped Monday...

I asked this before, but do not think I got an answer:

Is there a web site where we can preview the calendar?

-----Original Message-----
From: gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com [mailto:gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 3:00 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: ALL Calendar orders to be shipped Monday...


Yes, the calendars are ready to go and ALL orders will be mailed First
Class tomorrow (Monday, Dec. 15).  Watch you box for delivery if you
need to get it before your spouse does!

-Thank you for your support.

We will be in town over The Holidays, and available to ship new calendar
orders as needed (flu symptoms permitting!).  The calendar helps to fund
the magazine, and we appreciate your business.  (see order info below).

Sincerely,

Ron and Cheryl Wester
gullwingmagazine(at)juno.com

ORDER INFO FOR 2004 DELOREAN CALENDAR:
Now available for $15.00 ea. (US shipping included).
Canadian: add $1.50 ea. shipping.
Foreign: add $5.00 ea. shipping.
(Discounted shipping charges for more than 1 quantity per envelope.
Send e-mail request for rates.) 
      
ORDER TODAY for delivery before Christmas by sending check or money
order
to:
 
     GULLWING Magazine
     P.O. Box 991
     St. Peters, MO  63376
     USA
 
 or electronic fund transfers available using checking account or credit
card via www.PayPal.com to gullwingmagazine(at)juno.com. 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:49:30 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: COLD START PROBELMS!!!

Correct me if I am wrong here but from the symptoms you describe your
problem is not "Hard Cold Start". It sounds like the battery is just
being drained flat when the car is not in use. A quick fix is to just
disconnect the battery when not using the car either by removing a
wire from the battery or with a master switch. WARNING!!! A dead
battery can FREEZE!!!!!!! Also repeated draining of a battery to
compeletly dead and recharging it in such deep cycles shortens it's
life. A battery that has frozen is DANGEROUS!!! It gets shorted inside
and will generate excess heat and hydrogen gassses that can explode
when you try to recharge. If the sides are bulged then it is suspect.
Take it to a shop where they can test it.
Now on the the car itself. You need to find the circuit that is
draining the battery. Put a test light in series with a fully charged
battery. With the doors closed (or disconnected) the light should not
be lit. If it does light up pull fuses one at a time until it goes
out. Now you know which circuit is the problem. Follow it till you
find the problem. Common problems are: cigarette lighter, door lights,
bonnet light, glove box light, engine compartment light. Any
non-origional wiring is always suspect. It could also be a bad
alternator, you will know because pulling all the fuses will not shut
the light off.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Kramer" <jettaman95_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> Dear List,
>   The recent snow and bad conditions have left me in a problem. My 
> car will not start even when I try a battery start from another car. 
> I had to charge the car up a few days ago and then drove it for an 
> hour or so. Then drove it the next day and had no problems. Then I 
> tried today and it wouldn't start. Should I get a new battery or wait 
> until the weather dries up and try again. PLEASE HELP!!
>     Sincerly,
>           Kramer
>           ~10610




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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:08:46 -0800
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update

Lowering the car will reduce the amount of multi axis rotation simply
because the suspension travel is reduced. My car has been lowered most of
it's life and when I installed the Toby bolts last summer the original TAB's
with over 60,000 miles on them, including some spirited driving in places
like Road America,  looked as new. I do check and retorque the TABs once a
year. These cars aren't forgiving to being ignored but with proper
maintenance they can be as trouble free as any other car. Many of the
problems showing on the list are the result of poor or no maintenance,
prolonged storage, and at times the jury rigging of components vs using
proper parts. I can't understand the lengths some people will go to trying
to circumvent using original components. Many times they end up paying as
much or more than the DeLorean shops charge and when you figure in the leg
work trying to track these items down it looks like they may have cost a lot
more. Certainly there were compromises made in the cars design to reduce
manufacturing costs making areas of the car benefit from upgrades but the
basic design of the trailing arms isn't as horrendous as some would say.
It's simply a part of the suspension that requires routine checks. It's also
an area that gives plenty of warning before a catastrophy. If you're driving
around with a wandering suspension or hearing loud clunks emanating from
the rear suspension you should be checking things out. If you continue
driving until something fails you can't blame it on the design.

Bruce Benson



>  It's
> appallingly badly done, and has virtually no chance of >not suffering
> some kind of damage during normal use.   If the
> joint were meant to rotate in more than one axis, it >should have been
> a ball joint.  A bolt subjected to bending and shear >stress at the
> same time, that's just bad form.
>
> Rick.





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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:17:30 -0000
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: ALL Calendar orders to be shipped Monday...

Check out message number 37303.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> I asked this before, but do not think I got an answer:
> 
> Is there a web site where we can preview the calendar?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gullwingmagazine_at_dml_j... [mailto:gullwingmagazine_at_dml_j...] 
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 3:00 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DML] Re: ALL Calendar orders to be shipped Monday...
> 
> 
> Yes, the calendars are ready to go and ALL orders will be mailed 
First
> Class tomorrow (Monday, Dec. 15).  Watch you box for delivery if you
> need to get it before your spouse does!
> 
> -Thank you for your support.
> 
> We will be in town over The Holidays, and available to ship new 
calendar
> orders as needed (flu symptoms permitting!).  The calendar helps to 
fund
> the magazine, and we appreciate your business.  (see order info 
below).
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Ron and Cheryl Wester
> gullwingmagazine(at)juno.com
> 
> ORDER INFO FOR 2004 DELOREAN CALENDAR:
> Now available for $15.00 ea. (US shipping included).
> Canadian: add $1.50 ea. shipping.
> Foreign: add $5.00 ea. shipping.
> (Discounted shipping charges for more than 1 quantity per envelope.
> Send e-mail request for rates.) 
>       
> ORDER TODAY for delivery before Christmas by sending check or money
> order
> to:
>  
>      GULLWING Magazine
>      P.O. Box 991
>      St. Peters, MO  63376
>      USA
>  
>  or electronic fund transfers available using checking account or 
credit
> card via www.PayPal.com to gullwingmagazine(at)juno.com.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:36:37 -0500
From: Michael Paine <mpaine_at_dml_tycomsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Automatic car washes- A bad idea?

I should mention my father has a Brushless car wash, nor is it touchless. The
car is touched by cloth in the wash and blown dry with a strong blower motor.
You do not need to wax the car to get the water to blow off - if you stood in
front of the air blower you can really feel the force. Beaded water or no, it
WILL come off the car. 

Regards,

Michael


Quoting David Teitelbaum <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>:

> All car washes apply wax, they have to, to dry the car with high
> pressure air the water has to bead up. It is one of the bigger scams,
> for the extra money for "wax" you get to see some lights lite up. The
> problem with car washes is if the brushes are not properly taken care
> of (kept well wetted and replaced when worn) dirt gets embedded in the
> nylon bristles and then is rubbed against your car. These are the
> swirl marks you can see under certain lighting conditions. This can
> happen even when everything is taken care of. If your car is very
> dirty with mud that will cause the swirl marks as it gets rubbed off.
> This is the reason you see on many car washes 2 attendants with
> brushes washing off as much of the heavy dirt and salt as they can.
> For a car that you care a lot about and since it isn't that big you
> should try not to go into the car washes. 
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Abato" <delorean_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> > One of the previous owners of my car had taken it through car washes
> > with brushes.  End result was a ton of swirl marks in the stainless that
> > were very obvious when close up.  It took me some time and patience to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 





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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:14:13 -0500
From: PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: wheel color

Powdercoating is the way to go.  Its more durable than paint and resists nicks and scratches more.  They were originally powdercoated from the factory, not painted.  Cincinnati Powdercoating did mine and they look amazing.  They also clearcoated them which makes them a little easier to clean.  

Patrick
#1880



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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:28:17 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: COLD START PROBELMS!!! (Ignition?)

Key to problem may be in last sentence: "until the weather dries up".

Don't know how long car sat before initial jump start, but unless a
device is draining battery (or battery is old to begin with --
remember cold weather lowers battery efficiency dramatically),
shouldn't be dead again so soon.

You folks up north just got hit by double whammy: heavy rain melting
previous heavy snow -- tremendous moisture (we saw pictures of the
flooding). Water is death to high voltage electricity. If your
engine's disposable ignition components are questionable, may not be
getting a spark.

#5939 came with vintage distributor cap and wires (new plugs only).
Would not run in mere dew, much less actual precipitation. Now, with
all new ignition components, is impervious to weather. Wash engine
every time I wash car. Starts right up afterwards.

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Kramer" <jettaman95_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> Dear List,
>   The recent snow and bad conditions have left me in a problem. My 
> car will not start even when I try a battery start from another car. 
> I had to charge the car up a few days ago and then drove it for an 
> hour or so. Then drove it the next day and had no problems. Then I 
> tried today and it wouldn't start. Should I get a new battery or wait 
> until the weather dries up and try again. PLEASE HELP!!
>     Sincerly,
>           Kramer
>           ~10610




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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:58:06 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: wheel color

Can you confirm this? Certainly, they all flake as if painted, and I 
thought powder coating was a relatively new process? FWIW though, I 
agree with you, though it may be tricky finding a powder coating place 
who can match early grey wheels - I ended up having mine painted, but to 
a smooth, keyed surface.

Martin
#1458

PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

>Powdercoating is the way to go.  Its more durable than paint and resists nicks and scratches more.  They were originally powdercoated from the factory, not painted. 
>






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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:27:02 -0000
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra_at_dml_isd.net>
Subject: Re: TOBY-TAB update

As the owner of the failed bolt, I should probably chime in as Toby 
suggested doing so.

My first trailing arm bolt incident occured in fall of 2001.  It was 
likely caused by those "ripple" bumps found on gravel roads. I hit a 
patch of them doing about 45 mph, and the entire car shook hard.  A 
few days later I noticed the rear of the car seems to be swaying as I 
would accelerate.  Checking the trailing arms revieled a complete 
loss of the alignment shims on the passenger side.  That particular 
bolt had a slight bend in it, but the drivers side bolt was fine.  

The following spring (2002) I decided that I no longer wanted to 
worry about my trailing arm bolts at all.  So I ordered the newly 
availible first batch of Toby-TABs. With my "as long as I'm doing 
this, I might as well do that, that, and that" philosophy, I decided 
to replace everything on the trailing arm bolt area.  So I also 
ordered 2 new bushings, 4 new "medium" sized hardened washers, and 10 
new alignment shims (but not all were used).  Unfortunately, the 2 
larger sized washers are unavailable, so I cleaned up and re-used my 
original ones. I removed everything, cleaned up the area, and 
reinstalled/lubed/torqued everything according to spec. I also took 
advantage of the dissasembly to clean the the battery ground for the 
entire car, which goes into one of the bushing bolts.

Fast forward an entire year.  I took 2 cross-country trips (MN-
Memphis and MN-New Jersey) coupled with nearly every day driving from 
April-October. (Which performed flawlessly I might add).  As Toby 
mentioned, it ended up being near 20,000 miles.

Now in May 2003, I'm in Chicago for the spring tech session getting 
my clutch changed by all the helpful folks there.  While my car was 
on the lift with the transmission removed, someone pointed out to me 
that my alignment shims were askew on the driver's side bolt.  So I 
loosen the bolt to reposition the shims, but I notice a definate 
twist in the bolt head and nut when doing so.  I take everything off 
to find a very bent Toby-TAB.  After cleaning everything up, I found 
that the two new "medium" sized hardened washers that are placed on 
either side of the bushing, were crushed in where they made contact 
with the bushing.  I'm assuming this loosened the joint enough to 
displace the alignment shims, and somehow bend the trailing arm 
bolt.  There were ABSOLUTELY NO signs of this when driving.  No 
clunks, sways, nothing.

What does this all mean?  I means that I would easily pay a premium 
to get some newly manufactured hardened washers. (Urethane bushings 
wouldn't be too bad either -hint-hint-).

My drivers side Toby-TAB was bent more than my original passenger 
side bolt.  The Toby-TAB was still secured tightly, but probably not 
up to spec with the crushed washers.  My original passenger side bolt 
was completely loose with the loss of all alignment shims.  I would 
hate to see what would of happened if I had my original bolts in 
there still.

Wow, what a long post.

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC-6960

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_k...> wrote:
> Hello List - I have some important information that I want to pass 
> along for all interested parties regarding a bent bolt that was 
found 
> at a tech session in the midwest last spring.  The bolt was one of 
my 
> bolts, and had been installed by the owner.  If the owner wishes to 
> add anything to this post, he is welcome to (he is a highly 
regarded 
> member of this list).  The information that I was given was that 
the 
> installation was done with new "large" flat washers obtained from 
one 
> of the DeLorean vendors, and that he had put something close to 
> 20,000 miles on the bolts, including hitting some rather 
significant 
> potholes.  The car's owner noted that the new flat washers were 
worn 
> nearly half way through the thickness where the sleeves through the 
> trailing arm and bushings contact them.  The bent bolt was 
eventually 
> sent back to me for evaluation.  I sent it to the original 
> manufacturer in order to verify that there was nothing defective 
> about the bolt, or the materials used to make it.  I received the 
> manufacturer's formal written report yesterday.  The bolt was sent 
to 
> an independent testing laboratory, where it was tested to ultimate 
> tensile failure to verify material tensile properties, tested in 
> double shear to verify ultimate shear strength properties, and 
tested 
> for Rockwell hardness to see if there were any variations in 
hardness 
> in the bent area of the bolt.  The bolt failed at a tensile load of 
> 31,603 lbs, which translates to a tensile strength of 245,360 PSI.  
> The shear strength (using standard double shear tests) of the bolt 
> was 265,580 PSI, with a peak load at the breaking point of 45,489 
> lbf.  To get the single shear stress values, you divide the double 
> shear stress values by two, giving you a shear strength value of 
> 132,790 PSI in single shear.  The minimum values for this grade of 
> inconel are 220,000 PSI (tensile) and 125,000 PSI (shear), so the 
> material was well above the minimums.  The Rockwell hardness values 
> were all in the range of 47.15 - 47.97 Rc in the deformed area of 
the 
> bolt.
> 
> What the heck does all of this mean?  The TOBY-TAB bolt is 
incredibly 
> strong, but even it can't survive in a loose joint where the 
washers 
> have worn significantly.  The impact loads and general pounding 
that 
> the parts of the trailing arm connection take on rough roads and 
> during performance driving will eventually bend any bolt that is 
> installed there, even mine.  The stock, or even "improved" bolts 
> don't stand a chance in this environment.  Bottomline - The TOBY-
TAB 
> is the best that can be had, but you must still ensure that all of 
> the parts in the joint, including washers and sleeves, must be hard 
> enough to resist wear, and the tightness of the joint must be 
> maintained through normal maintenance.  I am looking into a new 
flat 
> washer material that I think will solve this wear problem, but the 
> cost may be nasty.  I will keep the List apprised of any further 
> developments.  As always, I welcome all of your input into this 
> issue.  Thank you for your support of the launch of this new 
company. 
> 
> Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
> DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
> Winged1




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