From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1793
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:06 PM

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Starting problems Part 2
From: jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net

2. Re: Starting problems Part 2
From: brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net

3. Re: DeLorean Performance Ignition Kit
From: stitsien_at_dml_lvcm.com

4. RE: Re: "French" PRV
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

5. Newbie says hi
From: doki_pen_at_dml_yahoo.com

6. DeLorean Car Show Magazine
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

7. Re: Fridge Run Update
From: racuti1_at_dml_delorean.com

8. Re: Newbie says hi
From: jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net

9. RE: Newbie says hi
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

10. RE: Re: Starting problems Part 2
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

11. Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com

12. Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

13. Re: DeLorean Performance Ignition Kit
From: james_at_dml_usadmc.com

14. Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update
From: MichaelRPack1_at_dml_cs.com

15. RE: Re: "French" PRV
From: benjamin strand <benjamin_strand_at_dml_yahoo.com>

16. RE: Re: "French" PRV
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

17. RE: Re: "French" PRV
From: Pete Berveiler <zamphyr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>

18. Prototype
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

19. DMC Quality Assured Sticker
From: PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com

20. Re: Prototype (and other early Deloreans)
From: rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net

21. Re: "French" PRV
From: abbotts_at_dml_aardvark.net.au

22. Re: Prototype
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>

23. Re: DMC Quality Assured Sticker
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

24. Re: Re: Prototype (and other early Deloreans)
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

25. Re: Prototype
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 04:41:02 -0000
From: jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net
Subject: Re: Starting problems Part 2

See if you are getting spark to the spark plugs. If you don't know
when the motor was last tuned-up or it has been a long time it is
proabably due. Replace the distributer cap, rotor, ignition wires, and
spark plugs.  Also check the connections on the white ballast
resistors on the firewall. It could also be a bad pick-up coil in the
distributer, again you have to see if you are getting any spark. If
you are then check the cold start valve to see if it is getting power
when cold and the motor is cranking.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, jettaman95_at_dml_y... wrote:
> Dear List,
>   A few days ago I wrote in saying that my car would not start. To be 
> more specific. The engine turns over like it is going to start. The 
> RPMs bounces up and down and I hear the engine like it may start. But 
> it dosen't.
>   I just got a new battery and put it in yesterday. The car started 
> up with no problem. Then this morning I went out to start it and it 
> was a weak start noise. So I let my car charge all day and guess 
> what? It still is doing the same thing.
>   By the way, while it was charging I checked each of the fuses to 
> see which was draining my battery. My cigar lighter was the problem 
> and I took out the fuse and the car still wont move.
>   Please help!!
>     Sincerly,
>        Kramer
>        ~10610




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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 04:48:10 -0000
From: brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net
Subject: Re: Starting problems Part 2

You're going to have to diagnose this step by step:

1) Ensure braided block to frame ground at passenger crossmember is
good. That's ONLY place starter, ignition, etc grounded (if car
stock). Many ills have been traced to that braid. Can check negative
battery cable too while down there (under passenger splash guard), but
it isn't exposed and should be OK.

2) Ensure fuel pump spins -- jump RPM relay (brown to white/purple,
opposite corners of harness connector). Pump should spin immediately.
If it doesn't check for voltage from fuse #7 and a good ground from
pump (fuse #7 doesn't pass through key switch BTW so can't leave relay
jumped forever).

3) Measure static battery voltage. Easiest from jump post in engine
compartment (also easiest for step 4). Needs to be 11+ volts.

4) Watch battery voltage as starter motor turns. If you're alone
simply run a wire from jump start post to solenoid trigger (white/red
I believe). If voltage drops precipitously battery is no good.

5) Measure voltage into coil. Must be at least 7-8 volts for coil to fire.

6) Check for spark as starter motor turns engine. Can either pull a
plug and lay it on block (lets you see quality of spark too) or simply
use a timing light.

7) Ensure injectors opening. If fuel distributor doesn't make
humming/moaning/whining noise as air sensor plate manually lowered
(RPM relay jumped), system isn't building enough fuel pressure. Can
pop injectors out to visually inspect spray pattern as air sensor
plate lowered.

8) Ensure no "catastrophic" vacuum leaks. Watch air sensor plate as
starter motor turns engine -- engine vacuum alone should lower 1/16 to
1/8 inches. 

9) Ensure spark advance diaphragm not receiving vaccum. Advanced
ignition timing much harder to start than retarded.

10) Ensure idle speed motor not stuck closed. If car starts by
manually opening throttle plates, is definitely something wrong with
idle motor, ECU, or microswitch.

11) Ensure cold start valve opens. Simply remove from cold start tube
and visually inspect spray pattern as starter motor turns. Engine
probably won't start with cold start tube open on top.

If NOTHING above works, will move to ignition timing, cylinder
compression, and clogged exhaust...

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, jettaman95_at_dml_y... wrote:
> Dear List,
>   A few days ago I wrote in saying that my car would not start. To be 
> more specific. The engine turns over like it is going to start. The 
> RPMs bounces up and down and I hear the engine like it may start. But 
> it dosen't.
>   I just got a new battery and put it in yesterday. The car started 
> up with no problem. Then this morning I went out to start it and it 
> was a weak start noise. So I let my car charge all day and guess 
> what? It still is doing the same thing.
>   By the way, while it was charging I checked each of the fuses to 
> see which was draining my battery. My cigar lighter was the problem 
> and I took out the fuse and the car still wont move.
>   Please help!!
>     Sincerly,
>        Kramer
>        ~10610




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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:00:15 -0000
From: stitsien_at_dml_lvcm.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean Performance Ignition Kit

Do you have dyno reports you can post yet?

Matthew Stits
Vin 0789

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, James Espey <james_at_dml_u...> wrote:
> Several people have already emailed me about the DeLorean 
Performance
> Ignition Kit shown on out web site here:
> 
> http://www.delorean.com/12Days/Day6.asp
> 
> We developed this kit in conjunction with Nology 
(http://www.nology.com) in
> California. They started the initial development on our nitrous 
program, and
> we have used this kit on one of our test cars (the car used in the 
Player's
> Run rally earlier this year) for nearly 12 months, and are pleased 
to be
> able to offer it exclusively to DeLorean owners.
> James Espey
> DMC (Texas)
> http://www.delorean.com




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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:31:39 -0800
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: "French" PRV

As I understand it he did chose worse, The Citron 4 cylinder was his 1st
choice.
John



-----Original Message-----
From: brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net [mailto:brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 3:22 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: "French" PRV


Factory was in France, but Swedes have their fingerprints on design too.

To be honest, Volvo's final rework of original design (B280) is very
nice engine, EFI not withstanding.

I was very leery about PRV before actually getting my hands on one
(original posts to DML regarded Vortec conversion). Now, am rather
fond of the little powerplant. Has its weaknesses: "Internal" water
distribution pipe is assinine. Ignition distributor would have been
better relocated by cylinder #3 (as it is on B280). Clearance is tight
among injectors and spark plugs. But in all PRV is surprisingly smooth
running (given odd fire sequence) with good bottom end torque and
projected long life span -- Bertone I saw in Hagarstown junkyard had
180,000 miles on odometer.

JZD could have chosen worse.

Bill Robertson
#5939




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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:23:21 -0000
From: doki_pen_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Newbie says hi

Hi Everyone,
     I wanted to say hi and welcome myself to your group.  I just 
purchased my first delorean.  It's an 81 with an automatic 
transmission with 30k miles. The car has been sitting outside for 
about eight months so I am having some problems.
     My main concern is the brakes.  I have to step so hard just to 
get the car to stop.  And if i do get it to stop sometimes the front 
left or right wheel will lock up and drag along the ground.
     Pedal feel is pretty squishy for the first 3 inches, then rock 
hard.  Pumping the brakes does nothing to give me back a higher 
pedal.  Do you think I am a victim of frozen calipers? Maybe swollen 
brake lines?

Thanks everyone!

Jon

69 porsche 912
75 Jag XJ6C
68 mini cooper
73 Leyland Mini
81 Delorean




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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:03:41 EST
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: DeLorean Car Show Magazine

Thanks for the rush at Christmas on subscriptions

We just printed another batch so we have plenty in stock
If you have wanted to purchase the magazine and have not now is the time to 
do it in time for Christmas.

If you order in the next few days we will send you the magazines by 1st class 
instead of the bulk mail usually used so that you can enjoy the magazine for 
the Hollidays

In the latest issue you will find articles on the Indiglo Dash, An update on 
Pigeon Forge with photos of the area.  Information on a New yet to be released 
Movie with a DeLorean in it (Spymate), and much much more.

go to www.deloreancarshow.com and click on magazine.

For those of you that don't want to send a check 
There is also a selection on the side that will allow you to use paypal.

Credit card use should be days away we are testing it now.

The car show registration is now in its testing phase as well.  If you 
register and have any feedback let us know.  With all the variations we had it was a 
bit difficult to program some of the options but they appear to be working 
fine.

The web page will be linked to it in a few days.  Some of you have found it 
already and registerd.  Scott M was the first to register.  Thanks Scott.

Ken

16684 (Gigawat)
16113 (Raffle Car)
16918 (restoration project)
3951 (titled yesterday)
3390(restoration project)
3720 (170 mile car) for sale


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:26:52 -0000
From: racuti1_at_dml_delorean.com
Subject: Re: Fridge Run Update

To my knowledge, this is the first mention of this on the DML so
for those who may be confused about what this "Fridge Run" is, I'll 
explain:

Uh..it started out as a half-joke. I suggested a run to my parents' 
house in Ft. Myers, Florida to "raid their refrigerator" and crash at 
their house because my dad made the wise-acre comment that I couldn't 
find 5 DeLoreans that could make it that far and back without 
breaking down. (Forgive him, he's a Corvette man and knows not what 
he says)

This is an un-sanctioned event (not sponsored by any organized club, 
just me) and I had only posted it in the DMCForum. Originally, it was 
supposed to be 5-7 close friends just looking to go south and get out 
of the cold but it appears to be evolving into something bigger.

I pretty much already have the "assault team" picked to drop in at my 
parents' house with, but if you are interested in attending, and can 
provide your own lodging (there are a variety of decent hotels in the 
area) please email me at racuti1_at_dml_delorean.com or email my social 
director Andrei Cular.

What was a leisurely drive and trip to the beach is now that plus 
shop time and perhaps a parade. I'm also looking to set up a all-
hands barbque at my folks' house. We're playing "fast-n-loose" with 
the dates right now so please be patient.

Rich
#5335
(May God have mercy on my soul)

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Andrei Cular" <acular_at_dml_t...> wrote:
> Here is the latest of potential events for the first annual Raid 
Rich's
> Parents Fridge Run to Fort Myers FL.  Anyone that is interested in 
attending
> please send me an email sx240_at_dml_h...
> 
> Tech session -- I have gotten permission to take over any available 
shop
> space at work for a day and night.  Depending on what happens we 
might even
> have a engine analyzer curtsey of Dave S.  Maybe Walt can bring his 
AC
> equipment?  I should have everything else needed to complete any 
job except
> for a fuel pressure gage set.  I do have few extra fuel injectors, 
and a rig
> to clean and test them.  And a parts store with a good supply of 
metric
> fasteners and plumbing just a couple miles down the road.
> 
> Dinner and or drinks with sunset photos at the almost world famous 
Tarpon
> Lodge -- As long as we have less than 50 people they wont give us 
any
> special prices, lunch usually runs about $10ea.  But they have 
agreed to
> give us unlimited unrestricted access to the property for 
pictures.  And
> they have a perfect back drop, specially for sunsets.  take a look 
at
> http://www.tarponlodge.com/accommodations.htm
> 
> Beach Day -- Feb will probably still be too cold for most locals to 
go in
> the water, but northerns will probably love it at 70 degree.
> 
> Sat Feb 21.  Edison Festival of Light car show and Parade -- If we 
arrange
> things around this weekend and have a good showing of cars their is 
a very
> good possibility that we will beable to participate in the show and 
parade.




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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:10:12 -0000
From: jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net
Subject: Re: Newbie says hi

Sounds like a sticking piston in one or more of the calipers. The best
approach is to just rebuild all the calipers and possibly replace the
master cylinder. 
 Since you just got the car one of the first things you should do is
change ALL the fluids. Be careful with the automatic. If you notice it
shifting funny fix the shift computer right away before you do any
damage to it. Get a Workshop manual. Call a Delorean vender and order
2 oil filters and a drain plug adapter. Talk to them about wether you
need to do any of the recalls or updates. Get rid of the fan fail
relay or the wire bypass. Pressure test the cooling system for leaks.
As for right now check the air in the tires. The label with the
correct pressures is on the door of the gove box inside. Get an extra
key made if you only have 1. When you can lift the car up check the
C/V boots (4) and the trailing arm bolts. Have the spare tire resealed
so it holds air. And keep reading the DML!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, doki_pen_at_dml_y... wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>      I wanted to say hi and welcome myself to your group.  I just 
> purchased my first delorean.  It's an 81 with an automatic 
> transmission with 30k miles. The car has been sitting outside for 
> about eight months so I am having some problems.
>      My main concern is the brakes.  I have to step so hard just to 
> get the car to stop.  And if i do get it to stop sometimes the front 
> left or right wheel will lock up and drag along the ground.
>      Pedal feel is pretty squishy for the first 3 inches, then rock 
> hard.  Pumping the brakes does nothing to give me back a higher 
> pedal.  Do you think I am a victim of frozen calipers? Maybe swollen 
> brake lines?
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> 
> Jon
> 
> 69 porsche 912
> 75 Jag XJ6C
> 68 mini cooper
> 73 Leyland Mini
> 81 Delorean




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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:25:11 -0800
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Newbie says hi

Jon, Welcome to the Delorean World. Jump in the sauna is always warm and
comfy.
Brakes: calipers are 20+ years old and full of gunk, master cylinder seals
are hard and cylinder is full of old fluid and rust,  brake lines old, Dot 4
is most likely old. If a complete brake fluid transfusion doesn't do it,
then is replacement time.  Not trying to be negative BUUUUT, it's all old.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/brakes-rotors.html


-----Original Message-----
From: doki_pen_at_dml_yahoo.com [mailto:doki_pen_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:23 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Newbie says hi


Hi Everyone,
     I wanted to say hi and welcome myself to your group.  I just
purchased my first delorean.  It's an 81 with an automatic
transmission with 30k miles. The car has been sitting outside for
about eight months so I am having some problems.
     My main concern is the brakes.  I have to step so hard just to
get the car to stop.  And if i do get it to stop sometimes the front
left or right wheel will lock up and drag along the ground.
     Pedal feel is pretty squishy for the first 3 inches, then rock
hard.  Pumping the brakes does nothing to give me back a higher
pedal.  Do you think I am a victim of frozen calipers? Maybe swollen
brake lines?

Thanks everyone!

Jon

69 porsche 912
75 Jag XJ6C
68 mini cooper
73 Leyland Mini
81 Delorean



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:47:29 -0800
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Starting problems Part 2

Kramer, I would be checking the starter. Clean the main wires going to the
solenoid on top of it and make sure they are ok. Then if does the same
thing, then the solenoid contacts inside it may be wore out. If they are
wore out then I would replace the complete starter. Remember it's 20+ years
old and never been changed. One other thing, be sure to check connections on
the start inhibit relay and has the starter conversion been done if you have
a car before vin 2547.
John Hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/starters.html




-----Original Message-----
From: jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net [mailto:jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 8:41 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Starting problems Part 2


> Dear List,
>   A few days ago I wrote in saying that my car would not start. To be
> more specific. The engine turns over like it is going to start. The
> RPMs bounces up and down and I hear the engine like it may start. But
> it dosen't.
>   I just got a new battery and put it in yesterday. The car started
> up with no problem. Then this morning I went out to start it and it
> was a weak start noise. So I let my car charge all day and guess
> what? It still is doing the same thing.
>   By the way, while it was charging I checked each of the fuses to
> see which was draining my battery. My cigar lighter was the problem
> and I took out the fuse and the car still wont move.
>   Please help!!
>     Sincerly,
>        Kramer
>        ~10610



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:29:27 -0000
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com
Subject: Re: TOBY-TAB update

Kevin - With the original OEM bolts, the tensile stress caused by 
the torqueing process is about 80% of the capability of the material 
used to make them (less than 150,000 PSI).  With the TOBY-TAB's 
ultimate tensile stress allowable of between 245,000 and 248,000 
PSI, the installation torque of 50 lb-ft is hardly noticed by the 
bolt material.  One caution with the self-locking nuts (and this is 
true of ALL self-locking nuts) ... they will loose some of 
that "lock" after multiple reuses.  If the nuts get to where they 
will turn freely on the bolt threads, it's time to get a fresh nut.  
Watch out for those cheaper "nylok" nuts - some of them are made of 
near grade 2 steel.  Those nuts would strip out long before they 
developed the capability of the bolts.  I know that some people 
complained about the nuts that I used in my kits, but they held 
during the recent ultimate tensile test with no damage to the 
threads.  That was a 31,000 lb + load.  Good stuff.  Let me know if 
you have any other questions.  BTW - The third batch will happen.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.DeLorean-parts.com


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "K. Creason" <dmc4687_at_dml_m...> wrote:
> Q for Toby: it was said to be bad to re-torque the original TABs 
(could cause more fatigue or something) is that true for the Toby 
TABs? If so-- is there no maintenance method of checking and 
securing the TABs besides a visual inspection (which can't see 
squat) or replacing them (not an option since TTABs are not 
available)?
> 
> Thanks-
> Kevin




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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:17:09 -0800
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update

Clunking can come from a number of places. In addition to isolating the jar
of road imperfections, the rear suspension bushings act as a type of
spherical joint to allow some adjustment as dimension changes result from
the lateral and radius arc movement of the suspension. If these bushings are
begining to display wear or deterioration it could cause clunking. Several
years back there was an article in DeLorean World magazine regarding the
movement of axle bearings in the rear suspension carriers. Apparently some
cars had developed enough slop in the housing to allow, during hard
cornering, a bit of bearing movement back and forth between the tru arc
rings securing them. The suggestion there was to try to inject grease into
the housing around the bearing. Cv joints should not cause a clunk if they
are in good condition. A certain amount of movement back and forth between
the transaxle and the rear carrier is normal. Certainly the DeLorean's rear suspension is a compromise between manufacturing cost and performance and there are better ways to do it like, for example, the Pierce design. A triangular lower traverse link would probably offer better handling than the stock design but that would require  changes elsewhere in the way the rear suspension travel is controlled. Cost was begining to be a major factor and the DeLorean wasn't
designed with all out performance in mind anyway. The selling price was
already exceeding it's competition. The window price on a 1982 Corvette was
under $20,000 while the Delorean was over $25,000. All in all, I still feel
a properly maintained original rear suspension system is safe and reliable.

Bruce Benson

> My !#$_at_dml_#% car has so much clunking from the
> half-axles sliding back and forth that I am constantly >checking the TABs,
but have to fight the tendency to >forget that that noise is there. I've
done the body bolts >several times, secured the tool kits and stuff, >and
replaced rear-end bearings... I removed my original >TABs last year and they
were slightly stretched,
> slightly bent.




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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:13:23 -0000
From: james_at_dml_usadmc.com
Subject: Re: DeLorean Performance Ignition Kit

Possibly next week. The holiday may set that back to first of 
January. I have it on a Stage II engine car here, but not a stock 
car. I have one stock DeLorean here that is available to have this 
kit put on it...need to find the time in the service department 
schedule.

James

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, stitsien_at_dml_l... wrote:
> Do you have dyno reports you can post yet?
> 
> Matthew Stits
> Vin 0789





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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:23:10 EST
From: MichaelRPack1_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Re: Re: TOBY-TAB update

In a message dated 12/16/2003 11:37:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dmc4687_at_dml_mindspring.com writes:

<< I disagree with that statement. My !#$_at_dml_#% car has so much clunking from the
 half-axles  >>

Check the axle yolks for the clunking sound. My Friend Kayo Ong's 1981 DMC 
had to have them replaced up at Rob Grady's. He was experiencing the same sounds 
in the back.

Sincerely,
Michael Pack



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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:45:08 -0800 (PST)
From: benjamin strand <benjamin_strand_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: "French" PRV

Speaking of Citroen, are there any members of the DML list who also own a French made Citroen?  Preferably a 1970's D series?  Ugliest looking car ever built.  But the handling and the suspension...unbeatable.  That was a car that was truly ahead of its time.  If only there was a way to incorporate the air/fluid hydropneumatic self-levelling suspension system on a Delorean, or any other car for that matter.  
 
Ben
Vin 4613

John Hervey <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com> wrote:
As I understand it he did chose worse, The Citron 4 cylinder was his 1st
choice.
John



-----Original Message-----
From: brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net [mailto:brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 3:22 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: "French" PRV


Factory was in France, but Swedes have their fingerprints on design too.

To be honest, Volvo's final rework of original design (B280) is very
nice engine, EFI not withstanding.

I was very leery about PRV before actually getting my hands on one
(original posts to DML regarded Vortec conversion). Now, am rather
fond of the little powerplant. Has its weaknesses: "Internal" water
distribution pipe is assinine. Ignition distributor would have been
better relocated by cylinder #3 (as it is on B280). Clearance is tight
among injectors and spark plugs. But in all PRV is surprisingly smooth
running (given odd fire sequence) with good bottom end torque and
projected long life span -- Bertone I saw in Hagarstown junkyard had
180,000 miles on odometer.

JZD could have chosen worse.

Bill Robertson
#5939



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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:09:06 -0800
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: "French" PRV

A friend of mine knows a lot about Delorean because of the Citroen. If there
is something we might us off one, he is the man. He just closed his shop and
works off Ebay only.
John Hervey



-----Original Message-----
From: benjamin strand [mailto:benjamin_strand_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:45 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [DML] Re: "French" PRV


Speaking of Citroen, are there any members of the DML list who also own a
French made Citroen?  Preferably a 1970's D series?  Ugliest looking car
ever built.  But the handling and the suspension...unbeatable.  That was a
car that was truly ahead of its time.  If only there was a way to
incorporate the air/fluid hydropneumatic self-levelling suspension system on
a Delorean, or any other car for that matter.

Ben
Vin 4613

John Hervey <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com> wrote:
As I understand it he did chose worse, The Citron 4 cylinder was his 1st
choice.
John



-----Original Message-----
From: brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net [mailto:brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 3:22 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: "French" PRV


Factory was in France, but Swedes have their fingerprints on design too.

To be honest, Volvo's final rework of original design (B280) is very
nice engine, EFI not withstanding.

I was very leery about PRV before actually getting my hands on one
(original posts to DML regarded Vortec conversion). Now, am rather
fond of the little powerplant. Has its weaknesses: "Internal" water
distribution pipe is assinine. Ignition distributor would have been
better relocated by cylinder #3 (as it is on B280). Clearance is tight
among injectors and spark plugs. But in all PRV is surprisingly smooth
running (given odd fire sequence) with good bottom end torque and
projected long life span -- Bertone I saw in Hagarstown junkyard had
180,000 miles on odometer.

JZD could have chosen worse.

Bill Robertson
#5939



To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:13:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Pete Berveiler <zamphyr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: "French" PRV

Its on the Bently, and I think a more adaptive version
is on a Corvette...


--- benjamin strand <benjamin_strand_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Citroen, are there any members of the
> DML list who also own a French made Citroen? 
> Preferably a 1970's D series?  Ugliest looking car
> ever built.  But the handling and the
> suspension...unbeatable.  That was a car that was
> truly ahead of its time.  If only there was a way to
> incorporate the air/fluid hydropneumatic
> self-levelling suspension system on a Delorean, or
> any other car for that matter.  
>  
> Ben
> Vin 4613
> 
> John Hervey <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com> wrote:
> As I understand it he did chose worse, The Citron 4
> cylinder was his 1st
> choice.
> John
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net
> [mailto:brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 3:22 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DML] Re: "French" PRV
> 
> 
> Factory was in France, but Swedes have their
> fingerprints on design too.
> 
> To be honest, Volvo's final rework of original
> design (B280) is very
> nice engine, EFI not withstanding.
> 
> I was very leery about PRV before actually getting
> my hands on one
> (original posts to DML regarded Vortec conversion).
> Now, am rather
> fond of the little powerplant. Has its weaknesses:
> "Internal" water
> distribution pipe is assinine. Ignition distributor
> would have been
> better relocated by cylinder #3 (as it is on B280).
> Clearance is tight
> among injectors and spark plugs. But in all PRV is
> surprisingly smooth
> running (given odd fire sequence) with good bottom
> end torque and
> projected long life span -- Bertone I saw in
> Hagarstown junkyard had
> 180,000 miles on odometer.
> 
> JZD could have chosen worse.
> 
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for
> sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for
> sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> 
> 


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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:09:34 -0600
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Prototype

I see some people think that the first 100 or so deloreans after the 
500 vin are prototypes are they?

 From what i have been told a prototype is a car that was made before 
production and has no title issued to it because it is a prototype not 
a production version of a car.

All other prototype vehicles i have seen for sale have no title just a 
bill of sale.

Mark




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:04:19 EST
From: PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: DMC Quality Assured Sticker

I have an early '81, but I really like how this simple sticker looks in the 
window of '83s.   Does anyone make these or know where I can get one?

Patrick
1880


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:06:21 -0000
From: rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net
Subject: Re: Prototype (and other early Deloreans)

Mark and List,

Check post 31978 from James Espy earlier this year, which explains
some of the details about early Deloreans including prototypes,
"black" cars, pilot cars and production cars prior to VIN...560
that were not included in the original factory warranty plan.

Pilot car #20 does have a VIN and a title or at least it did when
I was attempting to negotiate purchasing the car about a year ago.

Also, note that some cars were "pulled" from the production line
early on and at least some of these cars became factory RHD cars
and were re-assigned later VIN's as they were actually sold.
So, for those of you who think they know the actual production
number of their car by calculating production from VIN...500,
there is a good chance your calculated number is not accurate,
especially the later VIN's.  There is also some info out there
suggesting VIN's were assigned prior to the "end of the line".

BTW: James, did you ever get a chance to take more detailed 
     photos of the one existing prototype that is in storage?

Later,
Rich W.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> I see some people think that the first 100 or so deloreans after 
the 
> 500 vin are prototypes are they?
> 
>  From what i have been told a prototype is a car that was made 
before 
> production and has no title issued to it because it is a prototype 
not 
> a production version of a car.
> 
> All other prototype vehicles i have seen for sale have no title 
just a 
> bill of sale.
> 
> Mark




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:30:38 -0000
From: abbotts_at_dml_aardvark.net.au
Subject: Re: "French" PRV

The PRV's poor reputation is only partially deserved IMHO. My feeling 
is that the early versions had some design and manufacturing flaws 
which can be overcome with a bit (a lot?) of work. One of the worst 
flaws is the engine's propensity to leak coolant into the oil when 
the cylinder sleeve seals fail. I have a strong suspicion that the 
sleeves did not have enough protrusion above the block when these 
engines were first assembled at the factory. This could contribute to 
blown head gaskets also. The fix requires a full rebuild. Check the 
sleeve protrusion. I bet its nowhere near enough even with the 
thickest available seal fitted to the base of the sleeves. Cure? 
Simple (relatively!).  Have the block decks machined to achieve 9 
thou protrusion with the thickest seal (yellow one) fitted. Only 
needs about 3 thou or so taken off on average, so doesn't measurably 
affect cam chain tension. So long as the protrusion is the same for 
all 3 sleeves on each bank and they are square with the block and 
each other, that *should* hopefully take care of any future concerns. 
The other problem I have suspicions about is low oil pressure due to 
faulty oil pump relief valve springs. My engine showed precious 
little oil pressure on a gauge, but the idiot light on the dash 
rarely came on. Geez, what are those switches set at, about half a 
psi? When I disassembled the oil pump the spring was in 8 bits. 
That's not a one-off failure, that's a badly made spring. Early V6's 
were known for hacking up valve train components due to a lack of 
lubrication. Haven't got proof, but my gut feeling is that the cause 
could be primarily due to bad oil pump springs leading to oil supply 
limitations to the top end of the engine. Don't know for sure, just a 
hunch. How many folks would bother to routinely pull the oil pump 
(not an easy job) just to check it out?
Otherwise (French design quirks excepted) its a nice little engine. 
The later B280 version fixed the odd firing sequence by offset 
grinding of the crank throws to even things up. Heads were modified 
and given oil 'wells' for the cam lobes to dip into each revolution. 
Cams were re-designed to give a bit more grunt and a little better 
fuel consumption, the silly distributor position of the early 
versions was altered. My B28 had covered over 200,000 km when I 
pulled it apart due to the busted oil pump spring. The bottom end, 
including the bores, showed virtually no wear at all. A quick 'glaze 
break' and a set of new rings and bearings just to be on the safe 
side and it should be good for another several hundred thousand km. 
Hopefully :)
Our local machine shops and Volvo dealerships have never yet had a 
B280 apart. Some of them must have accumulated pretty high mileage by 
now. Must say something for the longevity of those engines I guess. 
And for a V6 they are remarkably smooth. Considering the modest power 
output, it'd be nice if the fuel consumption was a bit better though.

Cheers
Steve Abbott

   --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, brobertson_at_dml_c... wrote:
> Factory was in France, but Swedes have their fingerprints on design 
too.
> 
> To be honest, Volvo's final rework of original design (B280) is very
> nice engine, EFI not withstanding.
> 
> I was very leery about PRV before actually getting my hands on one
> (original posts to DML regarded Vortec conversion). Now, am rather
> fond of the little powerplant. Has its weaknesses: "Internal" water
> distribution pipe is assinine. Ignition distributor would have been
> better relocated by cylinder #3 (as it is on B280). Clearance is 
tight
> among injectors and spark plugs. But in all PRV is surprisingly 
smooth
> running (given odd fire sequence) with good bottom end torque and
> projected long life span -- Bertone I saw in Hagarstown junkyard had
> 180,000 miles on odometer.
> 
> JZD could have chosen worse.
> 
> Bill Robertson
> #5939





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:44:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: Re: Prototype

Anything after VIN 500 in a DeLorean is a **PRODUCTION CAR**. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking anything otherwise. Mr. Landi has been trying to pass this car off as a preproduction car and sell it for quite a while now. The reality is he has an exremely low production number car, but nothing more. It upsets me greatly that he continues to try and pass the car off as something it's not. I'm sure he will respond to this thread and state his reasons as to why he feels he has a preproduction car, but his reasonings are not valid, and his car is no more a prototype than anyone elses on this list. To see what a true preproduction car is, check out this link-

http://www.dmcnews.com/Resource/Prototype/prototype.html

This car was sold in AZ several years back, and is in fact a preproduction car. Notice the cosmetic and mechanical differences from the production DeLorean. I believe there were 3 of these cars made in 1980 mainly for promotional purposes. These cars differ from the initial prototypes, which can be seen here-

http://www.entermyworld.com/prototype/index.html

The original prototypes are believed to have been kept by Lotus until the early/mid 1990s when they were supposedly all destroyed. There were also  3 of these made. Rumor has passed around this list before that one of these cars is rotting away in someones back yard in Utah, but I take those with a grain of salt. If it were true, some DeLorean fan would have offered the owner of the car a large enough amount of money for the owner to sell it by now. So while we're at it let's reiterate our DeLorean productition facts just so that we can get the truth out here. The first 500 DeLoreans built were "black cars." These were cars built for practice purposes and were supposedly all destroyed. They were called black cars because they did not have stainless panels. Anything after VIN 500 is a PRODUCTION CAR.

Louie Golden
VIN 5252 Charlotte, NC
NC plates "88 MPH"

--- Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com> wrote:
I see some people think that the first 100 or so deloreans after the 
500 vin are prototypes are they?

 From what i have been told a prototype is a car that was made before 
production and has no title issued to it because it is a prototype not 
a production version of a car.

All other prototype vehicles i have seen for sale have no title just a 
bill of sale.

Mark

_____________________________________________________________
Buy and sell stocks in NFL teams! Get paid dividends every time your team wins! Free limited-time trial at http://www.AllSportsMarket.com/Index.asp?Refer=delomail



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 23
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:21:17 -0600
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: DMC Quality Assured Sticker

They are non existent now, the stickers were QAC applied.

Mark


On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 04:04 PM, PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

> I have an early '81, but I really like how this simple sticker looks 
> in the
> window of '83s.   Does anyone make these or know where I can get one?
>
> Patrick
> 1880
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Come see all of my Photo's at my Website.
http://photos.yahoo.com/snextime




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 24
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:39:27 -0600
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Prototype (and other early Deloreans)

I meant originally from the factory a title not issued would make it a 
prototype if it was not exactly like production cars. Vin #20 needed a 
title to be driven on city roads for showing to the public, this is 
still a prototype car because most parts on this car changed for 
production purposes.

I am talking about VIN 570 not being a prototype, all this is an early 
production model and nothing more.

Mark

On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 04:06 PM, rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net 
wrote:

> Mark and List,
>
> Check post 31978 from James Espy earlier this year, which explains
> some of the details about early Deloreans including prototypes,
> "black" cars, pilot cars and production cars prior to VIN...560
> that were not included in the original factory warranty plan.
>
> Pilot car #20 does have a VIN and a title or at least it did when
> I was attempting to negotiate purchasing the car about a year ago.
>
> Also, note that some cars were "pulled" from the production line
> early on and at least some of these cars became factory RHD cars
> and were re-assigned later VIN's as they were actually sold.
> So, for those of you who think they know the actual production
> number of their car by calculating production from VIN...500,
> there is a good chance your calculated number is not accurate,
> especially the later VIN's.  There is also some info out there
> suggesting VIN's were assigned prior to the "end of the line".
>
> BTW: James, did you ever get a chance to take more detailed
>      photos of the one existing prototype that is in storage?
>
> Later,
> Rich W.
>
>
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_w...> wrote:
>> I see some people think that the first 100 or so deloreans after
> the
>> 500 vin are prototypes are they?
>>
>>  From what i have been told a prototype is a car that was made
> before
>> production and has no title issued to it because it is a prototype
> not
>> a production version of a car.
>>
>> All other prototype vehicles i have seen for sale have no title
> just a
>> bill of sale.
>>
>> Mark
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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>
>
>
Come see all of my Photo's at my Website.
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:52:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Christian Williams <delorean_at_dml_framezero.com>
Subject: Re: Prototype

Wait a second, I never knew why 501 was chosen as the number that the VINs
started at, but I didn't think it was because there were FIVE HUNDRED
"black" cars. These couldn't have all been destroyed. It just doesn't make
sense for a new company to create 500 cars and then destroy them all. I've
never even seen a picture of one of the cars.

Can someone please clarify this?

-Christian


On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Louie Golden wrote:

> Anything after VIN 500 in a DeLorean is a **PRODUCTION CAR**. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking anything otherwise. Mr. Landi has been trying to pass this car off as a preproduction car and sell it for quite a while now. The reality is he has an exremely low production number car, but nothing more. It upsets me greatly that he continues to try and pass the car off as something it's not. I'm sure he will respond to this thread and state his reasons as to why he feels he has a preproduction car, but his reasonings are not valid, and his car is no more a prototype than anyone elses on this list. To see what a true preproduction car is, check out this link-
>
> http://www.dmcnews.com/Resource/Prototype/prototype.html
>
> This car was sold in AZ several years back, and is in fact a preproduction car. Notice the cosmetic and mechanical differences from the production DeLorean. I believe there were 3 of these cars made in 1980 mainly for promotional purposes. These cars differ from the initial prototypes, which can be seen here-
>
> http://www.entermyworld.com/prototype/index.html
>
> The original prototypes are believed to have been kept by Lotus until the early/mid 1990s when they were supposedly all destroyed. There were also  3 of these made. Rumor has passed around this list before that one of these cars is rotting away in someones back yard in Utah, but I take those with a grain of salt. If it were true, some DeLorean fan would have offered the owner of the car a large enough amount of money for the owner to sell it by now. So while we're at it let's reiterate our DeLorean productition facts just so that we can get the truth out here. The first 500 DeLoreans built were "black cars." These were cars built for practice purposes and were supposedly all destroyed. They were called black cars because they did not have stainless panels. Anything after VIN 500 is a PRODUCTION CAR.
>
> Louie Golden
> VIN 5252 Charlotte, NC
> NC plates "88 MPH"
>
> --- Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com> wrote:
> I see some people think that the first 100 or so deloreans after the
> 500 vin are prototypes are they?
>
>  From what i have been told a prototype is a car that was made before
> production and has no title issued to it because it is a prototype not
> a production version of a car.
>
> All other prototype vehicles i have seen for sale have no title just a
> bill of sale.
>
> Mark
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Buy and sell stocks in NFL teams! Get paid dividends every time your team wins! Free limited-time trial at http://www.AllSportsMarket.com/Index.asp?Refer=delomail
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>
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>
>





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


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