From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1798
Date: Friday, December 19, 2003 5:04 PM

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Prototypes, legend and lore
From: "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>

2. Re: Stainless Steel Illusions, Errata Pt2?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

3. Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

4. Re: Testing Fans on #3299
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

5. Re: Turn ignition key, and starter not activating
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

6. Updates on 3299's problems
From: Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Re: Idle speed motor
From: "graham WELLS" <gwells_at_dml_churchfarm-classics.fsnet.co.uk>

8. Re: Prototypes, legend and lore
From: "Henry" <henry_at_dml_ix.netcom.com>

9. Logo/Stickers
From: Tom Watkins <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>

10. Re: Euro Headlights
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

11. Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

12. Re: QAC label with DMC logo
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>

13. Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

14. Re: Re: Turn ignition key, and starter not activating
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

15. Free Software for Ring Tones
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

16. Re: Re: Euro Headlights
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

17. RE: Re: Euro Headlights
From: "jdub" <doki_pen_at_dml_yahoo.com>

18. Re: Euro Headlights
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>

19. Re: Prototypes, legend and lore
From: "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>

20. RE: Logo/Stickers
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

21. Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

22. Re: Rear Sway Bar
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

23. Re: Prototypes, legend and lore
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

24. Re: Turn ignition key, and starter not activating
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

25. Re: Prototypes, legend and lore
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>





Message: 1
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:03:51 -0000
From: "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: Re: Prototypes, legend and lore

Now to add my 2 cents worth,here's my reply,
The factory begain producing cars for DEALER shipment in June of 
1981,prior to that,there was a series of cars Vin # 000520 thru 
000648 that were HAND assembled and shipped to the USA.There were 
approximately 40 in number.These autos were for the factory 
executives,trade shows EPA and DOT.To the Best of my knowledge only a 
few of these cars survived.The balance were crashed tested,destroyed 
or disassembled for parts.They were NEVER destined to be sold to the 
general public My car has a vin tag showing a date of March 1981.As 
ALL cars HAVE to have VIN#'s this was probably done in March prior to 
shipping to the States.There are possibly several pre-prod.prototype 
cars in the US.or worldwide,BUT in the 22yeras I have been into 
Deloreans,I have only information on maybe a total of 10-12( possibly 
a few more that I am not aware of). WORLDWIDE with vin's below vin# 
648,as the FIRST car that was sold to the General public was Vin # 
000649.The #1 and #2 prototypes were sold in the fall of 1984 AT 
auction in California.Neither of the autos was in drivable 
condition,being damaged and with parts missing.The #1 ptototype 
purchased by Bill Yaccobozzi,sold for $37K.The #2 prototype,purchased 
by Don Williams,sold for $21K. 
As for my car Vin#000570,it was assigned as a "training car"(after 
BEING HAND assembled) and then was assigned to a K.Rzemek,as it was 
never intended/nor was it EVER sent to a DMC car 
delearship,again,this car(00570)was NEVER intended to be "sold" 
except for the fact of the DMC's need for cash/ collaspe,saved it 
from it's fate of doom.Again in my 22years of keeping a interest in 
Deloreans,I have ONLY come across about a dozen cars(worldwide) 
Between vins 520-648. If they were "regular production cars",then 
just answer this Question--Where are all these(128 cars) missing cars-
-- You would think since they were the first "dealer sold cars" as 
some people would  think,then they should be easy to find.Also the 
true "first" Delorean prototype Delorean was not EVEN a Delorean,it 
was a FIAT X/19 (a pic is shown of it in SSI)So that the two orignal 
prototypes are cars 2 and 3 on the list.Also to back up what I am 
saying I have  Documents to prove/backup my words.One more thing I am 
the second owner of 00570 the first owner got it from a company that 
was a liquidator of some kind, for DMC excess inventory(ie:items that 
could NOT be sold thru regular channels)(this is what the first owner 
told me,as I located him in N.J.) They(DMC) needed cash,but could not 
sell the cars(vins 520-648) thru normal Dealer channels/networks,for 
liability reasons,as these cars again were NEVER intended to be sent 
to/thru the new car dealerships
Ferrai TODAY does the same thing with their new production Prototype 
Ferraris(except they will never release or sell those cars(or any 
parts off those cars) in any manner,no matter how much money you 
throw at them)if you go to the Ferrari factory,somewhere in the 
corner of the factory grounds,you will FIND MILLIONS and Millions of 
Dollars worth of Ferrais,crushed or stacked 3 or 4 high one on top of 
each other,it just would make you sick to see testerossas,GTO's  and 
F-50's,and some of their "lesser cars" stacked one on top of the 
other.And a start-up Company like DMC was following the same path(or 
at least disassembling,these early cars)but like any company that 
needed/strapped for cash,you sell off what ever you can,that is where 
my car and others like mine had their chance,to escape their fate.If 
I am wrong please correct my facts.

Claude
00570  

P.S.Some of my facts were gleened from DMC factory Documents, and DW 
and previous owners,and Consolidated Leasing,and California Tech 
Center.










--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "James" <james_at_dml_u...> wrote:
> I've extensively researched the history of prototypes and know a 
fair 
> amount about them as well as the pre-production cars. Here 
goes...the 
> first prototype with the Citroen 4 cylinder engine is in a private 
> collection in Nevada. It is the subject of a feature article in an 
> upcoming issue of "deloreans". The owner is proud of the car, but 
> very protective. I don't expect we will see the car publicly 
> displayed in the near future. But I'm working on him. :-)
> 
> The second prototype was sent off to Lotus for "evaluation". This 
car 
> never returned to the states and I went to Lotus last year (at 
their 
> invitation on another matter) and spoke to several people about it. 
> Everyone was in agreement that it was destroyed in the late 1990's. 
> Photos of that era show it seemingly abandoned and in VERY poor 
> condition.
> 
> Dozens of prototypes were built at built at Lotus (cars with 
> fiberglass bodies) and destroyed or disassembled according to 
sources 
> at Lotus. I believe all the pre-production cars were built at 
> Dunmurry (in the late months of 1980 as production loomed). They 
were 
> numbered, a prefixed with a "D". One would imagine they started 
> at "D01", but no documentation has surfaced to prove that. There is 
> documentation (dated 12/31/81) of the existence of cars numbered 
D19, 
> D20, D21, and D28. These are referred to on different documents 
> as "pilot builds" or "engineering mules".  Two or three of these 
pre-
> production cars have survived - the one on the DMC-News web site 
> which I believe is D28 (current whereabouts unknown) and Sascha 
> Skucek's car (sorry if I spelled your name wrong). I think we 
> determined that Sascha's car is D20. Based on the dates of that 
> document, I am inclined to think that only those four pre-
production 
> cars came to the states, the rest having stayed in Dunmurry. 
> 
> Between late Jan 1981 and April 1981, several hundred (the actual 
> number is unknown at this time) of what's come to be called 
> the "black cars" were built. Exactly what became of these cars is 
> unknown as well.
> 
> Regular production started at VIN #500, though the first 60 were 
not 
> intended for retail sale, and a document exists saying that there 
was 
> to be no warranty coverage on those cars. SSI says production 
started 
> in April, but several cars exist with build dates of March. 
> 
> The earliest documented retail sale VIN is 635, the first known 
> public sale was June 17, 1981 in Beverly Hills, CA (VIN 910). I 
doubt 
> any cars were sold retail prior to that date, as cars didn't arrive 
> in the US until early June of 1981. We all know there are lower 
VIN's 
> in private hands now, though most (if not all) can be established 
as 
> having previously been company cars originally, and were only sold 
> later as company finances deteriorated and they were forced to sell 
> those cars. Those cars were sold through a company called "Chestnut 
> Fleet Leasing" and these cars are sometimes referred to as 
> the "Chestnut Fleet" cars.
> 
> James Espey
> DMC (Texas)
> http://www.delorean.com




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:06:29 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Illusions, Errata Pt2?

You are absolutly correct. In my copy from the origional printing it
too says Bridgewater, Conn. You should e-mail James Espey so if there
is ever another printing it can be corrected. I guess he could also
have a little card made up correcting this and then stuck into the
book. There is no dispute that the East coast QAC was in New Jersey.
That is why it makes sense that some cars were taken to the Bedminster
Estate, it is not that far from Bridgewater. That brings up a story Ed
Russo, the caretaker of the Estate till Trump took over, told me about
how one morning he and others came out and saw all the Deloreans
parked around the circle in a Villa on the Estate and no one knew how
they got there or where the keys were. BTW he remembers 25 cars, not
15. At the last event we had there we tried to park the Deloreans in
the compound recreating the scene but were told we could not disturb
the people that  were living there so all we got were pictures in
front of the Mansion. We couldn't even go inside. Now with Trump there
we may never get in there again. For pictures of the Estate you can go
to Deloreanmidatlantic.com 
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Chabotte" <webmaster_at_dml_8...> wrote:
> P. 134 "Faceoff At The QAC"
> 
> 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence. Refers to the East Coast QAC as being
in Bridgewater, Connecticut. Now, there is indeed, a Bridgewater, CT.
but I could have sworn up and down (sometimes i do!) that it's
supposed to be Bridgwater, NJ?
> 
> -Jeff Chabotte
> Norwich, CT
> Webmaster, http://www.88-mph.com
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:32:51 -0600
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION

I was hoping you wouldn't bring this up since I already have a patent 
attorney working on it.
But since you brought it up....

Yes, when I made my shifter medallions using the old "DMC" logo, James sent 
me a letter
telling me that I should have approved it with them first, and to promise 
not to sell them
or else he would "take legal actions".
I talked with James on the phone and asked:
"How is it that all these other Delorean related parts sellers sell logo'd 
merchandise then?"
He says that they have signed "License agreements" to do so.

Because I take threats of "legal actions" very seriously I felt I needed to 
do some research
to make sure I don't end up in trouble...after all, I only made a few little 
stickers,
so what's the big deal right?
Wrong, when it comes to copyright, the Federal Government steps in and takes 
over
and makes things expensive.

You are right, DMCH does not own the original trademark that was originally 
registered
my the real Delorean Motor Company in 1979.
It expired in 1985, as well as every other reference.
Because of this, DMCH would not be able to prosecute someone, nor would they 
be
eligible for restitution if some one used that logo.
They could however argue that use of the logo could cause "market confusion" 
against their
current logo.
I spent several hours on the phone today with a patent attorney and we 
discussed every
scenario. They explained that it would not do any good to spend the 
thousands of dollars
it would take to try to get the old logo re-registered because the trademark 
office would
argue it looks too much like their current logo, and regest it, and you 
would loose your money.
This is why no one else has bought it.
You can't. It's a waste of money to try.
No attorney would touch it.
....which is why they ignored it.
However, they would have to go through a lot of extra effort to stop you 
from using it.

James contacted me today and said that he would send me the requirements for
using their licensing agreement, but also mentioned for small items it is 
not worth it.

I personally feel that as long as it does not interfere with their business 
there is no harm done.
With the Delorean being an almost forgotten car, and with so much negative 
public opinion of the
car, nothing would do more good that to have people making stickers, hats, 
shirts and etc.
In the long run the business ends up at DMCH's door step.

Scenario:
I make, sell and wear a Delorean shirt. Some younger guy sees it and 
comments,
"that's a cool shirt, that's the car from back to the future right?".
"Yes, I own one, I bought it on eBay!" I reply.
"Wow, I have always wanted one, I will check that out when I get home!".
This is a practical scenario.

To be honest, Discovery Channel, Monster Garage, Don Steger and Rich W. are 
the people
responsible for me buying a Delorean.
I was -this close- to buying a Corvette.
I saw the first "Rock Crawler" episode with all the Deloreans on it and it 
got me to thinking about them. I checked eBay, first I bought all the 
Sunstar models, then, anything with a Delorean on it that I could get. 
Finally I found a local car on eBay, I looked at, drove it and bought it.
DMCH will be making money from me in the future because of that.

MORAL OF THE STORY?
There is no such thing as bad publicity.
If DMCH is smart, they would turn a blind eye to these little activities,
or allow affordable or "free" license agreements that would only stipulate 
that they approve the
products for integrity purposes in an effort to promote the Delorean.
They loose nothing, and gain everything.
Win win.

I will however respect their wishes even though according to my patent 
attorney that I or anyone else can use the old unregistered logo without 
fear of federal prosecution, however if DMCH wanted
to spend the money they could attempt to take you to court to prove 
"consumer confusion".
However, they have not done it to "Dallas Market Center" or "Douglas Machine 
Company",
"Dennis Motor Cycles" or any of the other 50, YES FIFTY "DMC" trademarks 
that are out there.
They would argue that using "DMC" while also using a similar font could 
cause a market confusion.
However, shirts, hats and stickers may not have anything to do with a car!

James also said it is OK to use a photo of the car itself.
Although he did not like my explanation that the sticker that I made was in 
actuality a photo
of my front grill logo pasted into a circle which is the god's honest truth.
He figured I was being a smart ass I guess! - HA HA

I will keep everyone posted as to how things turn out with me and James.
I was contacted by a lot of people who wanted the stickers and I have not 
sold any yet.
They are great for sealing Christmas card envelopes!
I am hoping that we can work together on this and both be happy.
As many of you know, I am working on a documentary for television,
as well as a series of "How To" videos that will be out next year on DVD.
This will be a great service to the Delorean community and will help out 
everyone
who sells parts.

I just want to help, that's all.

Thanks for reading this long ass e-mail!
- Videobob
VIN# 5278





>From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [DML] QAC label with DMC logo
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:05:10 -0800 (PST)
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>FILETIME=[7B5648D0:01C3C5E9]
>
>According to the United States Patent and Trademark
>Office, DMCH owns registration number 2491848 which is
>in fact a DMC logo.
>
>However, the DMC logo that most people try to use (as
>seen on the front of the car itself) is number 113096
>and listed as "DEAD".  According to an attorney friend
>who deals whit this sort of thing, that essentially
>means it is public domain.
>
>I don't know which logo the QAC label used.
>
>You don't have to believe what I am saying on the DML,
>but you can look it up yourself at
>http://www.uspto.gov/
>
>The real trick is, a hobbyist making a few labels (or
>models, or keys, or whatever) will probably not have
>the means to enter a legal battle with DMCH..  One of
>the downfalls of the US legal system, IMHO.  I have
>not heard of anyone challenging DMCH on ownership of
>the logo.  Anyone with a legitimate business reason to
>do so is likely to not want to do anything to upset
>DMCH (because they have a monopoly on many of the
>parts required to continue doing business).
>
>On a sad note, It looks like JZD's new car project may
>not be doing so well, his registration for "DeLorean"
>(number 76165416) in the font we all know is also dead
>as of March 18, 2003.  Looks like they did not care
>enough to renew it...  This by the way is the
>lettering found on the back bumper of our cars, and
>the hood emblem on 1982 cars.
>
>Marc
>
>--- James Espey <james_at_dml_usadmc.com> wrote:
> > Don't believe everything you read on the DML. :-)
> >
> > I send emails, nasty-grams come from lawyers.
> > Neither Casey nor Bob got a
> > nasty-gram.
> >
> > Persons interested in licensing the use of the DMC
> > logo for aftermarket or
> > reproduction parts should send a written request for
> > information to:
> ><SNIP>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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>
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Get dial-up Internet access now with our best offer: 6 months _at_dml_$9.95/month!  
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:55:19 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Testing Fans on #3299

Don't forget relay #24 (next to fan fail). That's what otterstat
triggers. Remove and jump lines in/out to test.

Could also be bad ground from fans. Are grounded to crumple extension,
which takes terrible battering from mere elements, even more so road
salt. Test for voltage on ground side to see if good.

Bill Robertson
#5939

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> Jump the wires going to the otterstadt switch with a paper clip. Turn
> the key on. If the fans don't run then it is one of the following:
> bad circuit breaker
> bad fan fail relay or bypass wire burnt
> wiring problem
> bad fan motors
> For the high idle make sure that the throttle is returning all the way
> to the idle position, the arm hits the idle micro and makes it click
> you fix all the vacuum leaks, the link from the throttle spool to the
> throttle plates isn't worn out. Check that all the vacuum hose are
> routed correctly, not leaking, cracked or split.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_y...>
> wrote:
> > Hey there everyone.
> >  
> >   I have been working alot on #3299 that I bought Nov 11th. 
> Replaced the governor, vacuum modulator, applied the major tuneup kit
> for automatics, flushed the fuel lines, and replaced the control
> pressure regulator.  Now I have two new symptoms, everyone - give me
> your best ideas.
> >




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:08:12 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Turn ignition key, and starter not activating

What Ramon hears could be solenoid on starter motor itself.

Needs to clarify whether "click" comes from inside passenger
compartment or from under car. Latter would isolate problem to
battery, starter motor, or connections between them (don't overlook
return ground).

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> Check ALL the big wire connections between the battery and the frame,
> starter, and alternator. Have the battery load tested. There is an
> update on the wiring in the starter circuit for very early cars. It
> may apply to yours.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "dmc001629" <dmc001629_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> > Dear List:
> > 
> > I am a month long DeLorean owner of #1629.  Driving my car daily, I 
> > am encountering the "typical" small agitations that 22 year old 
> > sports car owners encounter ... so I am working out the bugs.  The 
> > most recent is one that I would like some advice on.
> >




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:50:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Updates on 3299's problems

I just got in guys from learning ALOT from the workshop manual; it's 12:50 am and I literally just got in.  Here are some new details to help you guys:
 
Point #1.  I placed the key in "accessory" mode.  Refer to page N:01:03 from here.  For those without the workshop manual, the compressor switch was on "OFF" and the fan speed was on "0".  If I turned the compressor 1 dial to "max", the fans WILL come on.  If I turn the compressor knob to "norm", the fans will turn OFF.  IF I turn the compressor knob to "Bi-level", the fans come BACK ON.  For kicks, me and Dmc83n99 experimented with his control settings.  On "Max", "Norm", and "Bi-level", the fans were on all 3 times.
 
DMC-Houston suggested the following:
 
1.  Have the car sitting cold
2.  Fill it with coolant
3.  Start engine and let it heat to 220 degrees Farenheit
  ----If the fans do NOT come on, the fan switch is faulty and needs to be replaced.
 
I'm thinking about following your lead, DMChrome, and buying the fan-fix.  Is it the first one listed for about $129.00?  If so, I'll check my car and see if I have anything like that.
 
Point #2.  Dmc83n99 suggested to me the overheating problems (resulting of course because the cooling fans aren't coming on) may be the result of a failing thermostat.  Now the only thermostat I know of on this car is the one featured on C:12:01 or http://www.usadmc.com/dmcstore/ViewPage.asp?PageID=12#19.  He is sugguesting that the thermostat is failing to register, causing the cooling fans not to activate, causing the temperature to increase to dangerous overheating levels...and possibly also being the reason the idling is so high...this is of course all just suggestions.
 
  When I first received this car back on Nov 11th, the cooling fans DID come on automatically by themselves while the car idled..this does lead me to believe that the thermostat may have simply failed.  I have a feeling this car hasn't just sat for months; I think it has been sitting for YEARS, and now that this car is finally being driven - parts are breaking due to the sad fact they've been disengaged for so long that they're brittle and are breaking easily.


---------------------------------
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:44:42 -0000
From: "graham WELLS" <gwells_at_dml_churchfarm-classics.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Idle speed motor

It is a while ago that I had my idlespeed motor off for testing, but my
recollection is that it was effectively like a rotary solenoid in that
if there was no power it retuned to it's rest position. Not like a servo
motor if my memory of servo motors is correct. Mind you my memory is
sometimes a bit suspect !

Graham
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Gutkowski" <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Idle speed motor


> If there was, it is wrong. The idlespeed valve (that's what it is,
after
> all) will freeze in whatever position it was unplugged - this may be a
> position that will cause the engine to stall, but usually, the engine
> carrys on at a fixed speed
>
> Anyone who's ever been into radio controlled modelling will know what
a
> servo motor is - that's what the idlespeed "motor" is, controlling a
> variable air valve.
>
> Martin
>
> doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com wrote:
>
> >Did I recently read a post that said if you disconnect the wires
going to the
> >idle speed "motor" the engine should stall? Why is that?
> >
> >Mine certainly does not.
> >
> >Dave & 6530
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:18:00 -0500
From: "Henry" <henry_at_dml_ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Prototypes, legend and lore


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that all our Deloreans were "Hand Assembled."

-Hank  #1619

----- Original Message ----- 
>Vin # 000520 thru 
> 000648 that were HAND assembled and shipped to the USA.



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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:33:57 -0500
From: Tom Watkins <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>
Subject: Logo/Stickers

I may be in the minority on this issue but I think that remaking "QAC" 
stickers is not appropriate as this would mean that anyone could buy one 
and place it on their car.  Even people with bad intentions when 
selling....."yeah this car is perfect....see my QAC sticker!"   The QAC 
stickers are a part of DMC history and a part of the process when the 
cars were made.  Unless the car was actually gone over by one of the 
original QAC locations I feel it isn't right to simply add one to your 
car unless you are replacing one that already existed and is old/fading. 
    My car does not have a QAC sticker and as far as I know never 
did....does this mean that is didn't get inspected?  Should all cars 
have one anyway?  After 22 years I think these would be pretty moot.

Perhaps our vendors could get together and design a new sticker.   These 
would be applied only after they certify your car as 100% with each 
sticker indicating the service center that performed the work.    This 
would give most owners the chance to get this "certification" at any 
vendor location.  I live in Maine so my car is only serviced by Rob 
Grady so I think I should be able to have the opportunity to get one as 
should someone who lives nearer a different major vendor.  Just an idea, 
perhaps a little too idealistic a concept since our vendors are all in 
competition with each other but it would be a nice way to make it more 
like a community. Any thoughts?

Tom
#05732




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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:00:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Euro Headlights

Hey Jon, I support you on the headlights issue. 
Overall, the Delorean is a very timeless design, but
the headlights do date the looks.  That's just what
headlights were in 1981.  The designer didn't really
have other options. (Besides maybe popups, but that
may have made the car too close to the Lotus look and
increased costs.)  Anyway, I'm starting on a tangent
there.  

When I first saw the Nissan conversion, I did think it
was a good choice of lights, but if what's been said
about them being siliconed in is true, it's a
disappointing and unsafe installation.  If you really
like this look, do your research and some engineering
and develop a way to mount them so that they are
secure and adjustable.

For my project, I also wanted a change in the look of
the front end, but took a slightly more dramatic
approach.  Stay tuned to the website for updates.


=====
Steve

VIN 2650 ("Project Delorean")
www.projectdelorean.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/



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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:20:18 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION

Uh, nice sentiment, but wrong.

Trademarks have value.  Sometimes lots of value - think of Pepsi,
Coca Cola, IBM, HP, Ford, the Chevrolet bowtie.  It takes a lot of
time and effort to build the reputation that is behind those
trademarks.  Just seeing those logos gives you an immediate 
impression in your mind about the brand they represent.

Defending trademarks is a Very Serious Thing.  If you as a trademark
holder do not aggressively protect your trademark, you can and will 
lose it.  Inspecting products that others produce that use your logo
is not enough to protect the trademark.  You must have agreements 
in place that define precisely the terms under which the logo may
be used.  The price charged for licensing a logo is a measure of the 
effort to protect it.  If you as a trademark holder freely license your
logo to anyone you are diluting that logo's value and you are giving
a lot of the brand definition to others.  Should you later decide 
that you want to charge for use, you can be sued and lose not only
your attempt to charge you can also lose exclusive use of the trademark.

--
Mike



> I was hoping you wouldn't bring this up since I already have a patent 
> attorney working on it.
> But since you brought it up....
> 
> Yes, when I made my shifter medallions using the old "DMC" logo, James sent 
> me a letter
> telling me that I should have approved it with them first, and to promise 
> not to sell them
> or else he would "take legal actions".
> I talked with James on the phone and asked:
> "How is it that all these other Delorean related parts sellers sell logo'd 
> merchandise then?"
> He says that they have signed "License agreements" to do so.
> 



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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:21:59 -0500
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>
Subject: Re: QAC label with DMC logo

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 06:05:10PM -0800, Marc Levy wrote:
> According to the United States Patent and Trademark
> Office, DMCH owns registration number 2491848 which is
> in fact a DMC logo.
> 
> However, the DMC logo that most people try to use (as
> seen on the front of the car itself) is number 113096
> and listed as "DEAD".  

Actually, it's '1113096'.

Noah
#2867



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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:47:05 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION

Chrysler Corp has actively been going after all the aftermarket people
using their logo in advertising and on the products. This IS serious
business. DMC Houston has invested A LOT in staking their livelyhood
on the Delorean and all that goes with it. They are entitled to at
least control the use of the logo. My suggestion is to go ahead with
the repreduction of the label but come to some kind of agreement with
DMC Houston and sell it exclusively to them. Something on the order of
the keys they now sell. They can't do everything, they buy from other
sources so you would just be a vender to them for the label. The
benefit to you would be you would have a one stop bulk buyer with good
credit, the downside is that they will attempt to set the price.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, mike.griese_at_dml_w... wrote:
> Uh, nice sentiment, but wrong.
> 
> Trademarks have value.  Sometimes lots of value - think of Pepsi,
> Coca Cola, IBM, HP, Ford, the Chevrolet bowtie.  It takes a lot of
> time and effort to build the reputation that is behind those
> trademarks.  Just seeing those logos gives you an immediate 
> impression in your mind about the brand they represent.
> 





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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:13:02 -0500
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Turn ignition key, and starter not activating

The click is inside the car 
This is the 900 mile car I sold him and the problem is no power to the starter solenoid.
The starter/solenoid is new (Oct) (not reconditioned) 
The battery is new (July)
The alternator is new (Nov)(High current version)
ALL of the relays in the relay box have been replaced.
The electrical system has been gone over and contacts cleaned but that does not mean that there is still not corrosion

The car has the fuse by pass update and everything worked fine until two days ago.  The car has been on the road since October as an everyday driver.

The relay fix is not in the car and that is a start but what is needed is to check the voltage going into the switch and at the fuse box.

This has not been done

The problem is going to boil down to a bad connection or a relay went dead.  The problem is to determine the location of the problem.

There also is a connection right above the windshield washer bottle and if that is the problem may be a bit hard to get at for a new owner.  For us veterens we know how to bypass that problem by enlarging the hole and pulling down the cable. 
(not recommended for most owners) 

I hope this helps as I have not come up with any other alternative but what is listed here or on the DML so if anyone can help Ramon it would be appreciated. 

I think the relay fix is a good start since there is a click it means some power is getting back there although I think its the fuel relay clicking.

This car runs very nice and its a shame a $3.00 part is causing this much problem.  I am not near the car or I would have gone and fixed it.  With a volt meter and a manual it should take about an hour to troubleshoot for someone with experience. 

Ramon is pretty good with mechanics but as I was up until this year with all the refurbishings I have done the DeLorean is different and until you have taken one apart these little problems can be quite annoying.

By the way as much as all of you know I enjoy the DeLoreans until I started looking for a raffle car and then got sucked into the refurbishing I knew more about Mustangs and Jaguars than DeLoreans.  Mine is a concours car and needed the fluff more that the meat so until I started to tear into these things I knew a lot less than many of you assumed I knew.
This year and 8 cars later I am still learning but have a whole lot more understanding and experience with the car.
Its been a lot of work but a lot of fun also. Many of you that have seen the pictures of the dismantled DeLoreans know what I mean.

I will be having a slide or mpg show at Pigeon Forge showing some of the work on these cars.  I think it will be interesting.

It will probably Haunt Dave Strangard (SP) knowing what he went through with Vixen but he understands what each car needs to get back to running. 

Ken




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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:16:03 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Free Software for Ring Tones

In yesterday's NY Times, Circuits section on page G3 there is a
website that has free spoftware to convert sound clips into
downloadable ring tones. www.xingtone.com This is a great idea if you
want to change the ring tone in your cell phone and want to put a BTTF
sound into your phone! You could pull a clip from the movie, maybe the
lightning or even a voice! This could be a great gift for the holidays
to a Delorean fanatic. It is free to do now but in January it says it
will charge $15.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757




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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:47:21 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: Euro Headlights

Why are they called "Euro" headlights? Esp since they come from a Nissan...

The DeLorean headlights were used on the Audi coup and early quattro's, 
europen cars. They're rare though.

Martin
(UK)

Steve Stankiewicz wrote:

>When I first saw the Nissan conversion, I did think it
>was a good choice of lights, 
>





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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:56:44 -0800
From: "jdub" <doki_pen_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Euro Headlights

This is my understanding.

	Europe started using the H1 and H4 bulbs way before the US did.  This
allowed auto manufacturers to design headlight enclosures that followed the
lines of the car, while using a european standar replacement filament.  Cars
shipped to the US used standard sealed beam lamps based on the availability
of replacements in the US.

Take a look at the front facia of the 450sl mercedes for example:

http://website.lineone.net/~vhvc/1980%20Mecedes%20350%20Convertable.1981%20D
aimler%20VandenPlas.htm

Notice the originally designed "Euro" enclosures.  When cars were imported
the solution was to use a plastic housings that mounts two 5" sealed beam
headlamps in the stock location.

http://www.miloeuropeancars.com/450sl.jpg

	  This saved manufacturing costs because the body's mounting location
doesn't need modification.  It was an easy and cheap bolt on solution.  This
design also allowed the use of headlight wipers because of the flat surface.
	The same goes for the Nissan Maxima lamps.  They follow the lines of the
car, while still using standard H4 (i think) filaments. Just like europe has
been doing for a long time.  Maybe a more proper name for the headlamps
would be "import".
	One of the most tragic victims of the conversion (IMHO) was the 230sl
couple.  I love the way the european enclosures looked:

http://www.ifrance.com/3AClub/230SL.JPG

	Tragicly thousands of the originals were smashed and broken up when the
cars were imported and affixed with this "lovely" solution:

http://www.classicsandcustoms.com/list/images/6563_5292002174647.JPG

	Notice how now you can use a simple 7" sealed bulb available at any parts
store.

Sorry for the rambling

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Gutkowski [mailto:webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:47 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Euro Headlights


Why are they called "Euro" headlights? Esp since they come from a Nissan...

The DeLorean headlights were used on the Audi coup and early quattro's,
europen cars. They're rare though.

Martin
(UK)

Steve Stankiewicz wrote:

>When I first saw the Nissan conversion, I did think it
>was a good choice of lights,
>




To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
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Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:25:13 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <DMCVegas_at_dml_lvcm.com>
Subject: Re: Euro Headlights

I've no idea. I didn't even pay attention to the subject line... :p

As a rule of thumb, if it's a single flat color (especially black or 
silver), if it's overly small or compact, we call it "Euro Style" 
here in the US. This covers anything from car accessories (which is 
typicly overly ornate and gaudy) to housewares (which are typlicly 
more simplistic & plain). This also seems to occasionally cover 
modular furniture. Don't ask me why, but thats the way that they list 
everything in catalogues over here, even though the items seem have 
nothing to do with Europe.

Plus, it also tends to be synonymous with expensive.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_d...> 
wrote:
> Why are they called "Euro" headlights? Esp since they come from a 
Nissan...

<SNIP>

> Martin
> (UK)




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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:28:17 -0000
From: "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: Re: Prototypes, legend and lore

Hand assembled meaning that they were NOT on a "regular" production 
line/run,meaning that the cars were indivutally assembled,NOT parts 
added on as it was going along on a Tellus production assembly 
line.There was NO pressure to assemble items on the car,(as it would 
be on a normal assembly line).In other words "hand assembled".Without 
the Tellus moving onto the next stage of assembly.Teams assigned to 
work/learn/hand assemble ect.Before the Start of the "real" 
production line. Maybe this clearifies things
Claude
00570


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Henry" <henry_at_dml_i...> wrote:
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that all 
our Deloreans were "Hand Assembled."
> 
> -Hank  #1619
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >Vin # 000520 thru 
> > 000648 that were HAND assembled and shipped to the USA.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:33:23 -0600
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Logo/Stickers

Your right about using the stickers for inappropriate use.
I don't know anything about them.
However, things like this are a fun novelty at car shows.
Kind of like the way so many people reproduce thier window stickers.
It's just for fun.
- VB


>From: Tom Watkins <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: DMC News Group <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [DML] Logo/Stickers

>I may be in the minority on this issue but I think that remaking "QAC"
>stickers is not appropriate as this would mean that anyone could buy one
>and place it on their car.  Even people with bad intentions when
>selling....."yeah this car is perfect....see my QAC sticker!"   The QAC
>stickers are a part of DMC history and a part of the process when the
>cars were made.  Unless the car was actually gone over by one of the
>original QAC locations I feel it isn't right to simply add one to your
>car unless you are replacing one that already existed and is old/fading.
>     >
>Tom
>#05732



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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:51:33 -0600
From: "Video Bob" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: QAC label with DMC logo - PATENT INFORMATION

( I'm don't think anymore could be added to this subject so I'm going to end it with this post. We're starting to cover some of the same ground that's been covered and expanding away from DeLoreans:  Moderator )


Let me bbreak it down like this.
Ever heard of a little band from San Francisco named "Metallica"?
When they were a garage band playing in tiny clubs, they started to cover 
other bands
music, namely "Diamond Head", almost every song on their first album came 
from
Diamond Head.
Some local fans of the music made some "bootleg" or "underground tapes" of 
Metallica
and traded them amongst each other until one of these tapes got into the 
hands
of a promoter that was putting on a battle of the bands show.
Metallica, who at the time was all living together in a one room apartment 
with no money
was asked to play show that would be the spark that ignited their career.
If not for the fans distributing their bootleg tapes who knows if they ever 
would have made it.
Now, many years later they have gone so far as to sue their own fans for 
using "Napster"
and trading their music on the internet.
I have not bought one of their albums since, nor will I ever, or ever attend 
their shows.
I am done with them and I can tell you about a lot of other people who feel 
the same way.

Now, I am not saying that people should have free reign of the logo.
Hey, I am a television personality, there are several people around the 
country that
actually have fan pages about me, they use my logos, my copyrighted stuff on 
their
page where they praise me.
Am I going to complain about that?
NO WAY!

MY SUGGESTION was that the licensing agreement be such that even the little 
guy could
use the logo for things as small as stickers or other items that are not big 
money makers,
providing that DMCH approves the design.

I would really like to know if PG Grady, Delorean Motor Center, Delorean 
Stainless Steel Products,
Gullwing Magazine, DCS Magazine, ....and all the countless others of people 
out there making
logo'd merchandise have licensing agreements.
I feel I have something positive to offer people, and I would like to be 
able to do it.

- VB

>
>Uh, nice sentiment, but wrong.
>
>Trademarks have value.  Sometimes lots of value - think of Pepsi,
>Coca Cola, IBM, HP, Ford, the Chevrolet bowtie.  It takes a lot of
>time and effort to build the reputation that is behind those
>trademarks.  Just seeing those logos gives you an immediate
>impression in your mind about the brand they represent.
>
>Defending trademarks is a Very Serious Thing.  If you as a trademark
>holder do not aggressively protect your trademark, you can and will
>lose it.  Inspecting products that others produce that use your logo
>is not enough to protect the trademark.  You must have agreements
>in place that define precisely the terms under which the logo may
>be used.  The price charged for licensing a logo is a measure of the
>effort to protect it.  If you as a trademark holder freely license your
>logo to anyone you are diluting that logo's value and you are giving
>a lot of the brand definition to others.  Should you later decide
>that you want to charge for use, you can be sued and lose not only
>your attempt to charge you can also lose exclusive use of the trademark.
>
>--
>Mike



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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:02:24 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Sway Bar

The addco sway bar makes it a little more tricky to jack up the rear of 
t he car since it goes below the frame.

THe sway bar also bolts to the trailing arms and the metal on the arms 
is not as thick as I would like. Don't over tighten these bolts because 
it dents the trailing arm.s


BOB




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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 23
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:21:14 -0600
From: Mark Valuch <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Prototypes, legend and lore

Ok you have a hand assembled production car.

Now truly if your car is a prototype what parts are different than a 
production car?

Mark
6683 prototype?


On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 01:28 PM, fivetwofive wrote:

> Hand assembled meaning that they were NOT on a "regular" production
> line/run,meaning that the cars were indivutally assembled,NOT parts
> added on as it was going along on a Tellus production assembly
> line.There was NO pressure to assemble items on the car,(as it would
> be on a normal assembly line).In other words "hand assembled".Without
> the Tellus moving onto the next stage of assembly.Teams assigned to
> work/learn/hand assemble ect.Before the Start of the "real"
> production line. Maybe this clearifies things
> Claude
> 00570



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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 24
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:27:07 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Turn ignition key, and starter not activating

Tell him to jump solenoid (red/white wire?) just to be sure. Should be
able to reach without even jacking up car (ensure in neutral!)

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, kKoncelik_at_dml_a... wrote:
> The click is inside the car 
> This is the 900 mile car I sold him and the problem is no power to
the starter solenoid.
> The starter/solenoid is new (Oct) (not reconditioned) 
> The battery is new (July)
> The alternator is new (Nov)(High current version)
> ALL of the relays in the relay box have been replaced.
> The electrical system has been gone over and contacts cleaned but
that does not mean that there is still not corrosion..............

> Ken




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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:50:37 -0800
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Prototypes, legend and lore

> Ok you have a hand assembled production car.
>
> Now truly if your car is a prototype what parts are different than a
> production car?
>
> Mark
> 6683 prototype?

The term for these cars is pilot model. That's how bugs are worked out and
production standards are devised and modified. Sometimes changes are made in
the car to improve the assembly process and sometimes the process is changed
to make assembly more efficient. In any event, a prototype is a
pre-production example of, for the most part, what's coming. Sometimes
they're not even drivable. The pilot model is, for the most part, what the
finished product will be but isn't intended for sale. It's built and rebuilt
for training and process development purposes along with road testing,
government compliance crash and emission testing and so on. These cars are
destroyed once final production begins. In all the years I worked for Ford I
never saw pilot models built in numbers like the 500 quoted here. My guess
is the majority of the black cars never went beyond the plastic body stage
and were the result of developing the rather complicated process for making
those bodies. The rest of the assembly process development most likely
involved only a few of those bodies. In recent years we built next year's pilot models on the assembly line right alongside current models and then shipped them
back to Detroit for testing. Years ago we got pilot cars shipped to us from
the pilot plant in Dearborn and after new model production started we
destroyed the pilot cars. It would be very interesting to know just how the
DeLorean pilot cars ever got registered. Ford and the government were very
strict regarding our pilot cars and their eventual destruction.

Bruce Benson






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