From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1806
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2003 5:06 AM

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. catalytic converter removal
From: "stainlessillusion2000" <dmcman_at_dml_hawaii.rr.com>

2. Re: Prototype Delorean AGAIN!
From: "deloreand" <ed_at_dml_dmc-service.nl>

3. Re: catalytic converter removal
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

4. Re: catalytic converter removal
From: stefano putgioni <stefano_put_at_dml_yahoo.it>

5. Re: DeLorean Door Seals...
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

6. Lotus Esprit gearbox, same as the DMC
From: MichaelRPack1_at_dml_cs.com

7. DeLoreans on MG Rebroadcast
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

8. idle revisited
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>

9. Re: Lotus Esprit gearbox, same as the DMC
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

10. Re: idle revisited
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

11. Re: idle revisited
From: "Jerry Harry" <jlharry_at_dml_mcloudteleco.com>

12. Re: idle revisited
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

13. Re: idle revisited
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

14. Re: catalytic converter removal
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>

15. wishing everyone a Merry Christmas
From: Eric Itzel <eric_at_dml_seviernet.com>

16. Re: catalytic converter removal
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>

17. Re: idle revisited
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:35:41 -0000
From: "stainlessillusion2000" <dmcman_at_dml_hawaii.rr.com>
Subject: catalytic converter removal

i was considering removing the catalytic converter off my delorean, 
i heard that if you do so, it will increase horsepower and breathe 
better, is this true?, can anyone help me out!




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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:49:38 -0000
From: "deloreand" <ed_at_dml_dmc-service.nl>
Subject: Re: Prototype Delorean AGAIN!

Well if you tell the story like this it sounds like you did the best 
for the cars.
In the other way I, Ed Uding from the Netherlands, feel robbed: I 
had a good deal with you and settled it with a $ 2000 down payment 
to confirm our deal which you accepted. 12 hours later you mailed 
and did not call, letting me know that you sold the parts to Rob 
Grady and because I could not pick up the parts and cars that soon ( 
beginning of January).
Nice if you don't contact my to ask, as a matter of fact I would 
have had it all out in the first week of Jan.
What is left is a loss of two air plane tickets to New York, you 
knew I had them before you made the second deal with R. Grady. Also  
I still haven't received my down payment back!
Thanks a lot for doeing business, sorry to every body else but I 
think you should know this is the way it went.
Good deal Rob!

Ed Uding
Netherlands


   --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "fivetwofive" <CBL302_at_dml_m...> wrote:
> Yes,they were sold before the auction ended,I had countless offers 
to 
> sell indivutal parts,and quite a few OFFERS WORLDWIDE(for the lot),
> (as far as the Netherlands)(I was NOT into it to make a quick 
buck,i 
> just needed to make sure the cars got a good HOME,otherwise I 
would 
> have let the auction run,and see How high it would go)(and now 
they 
> DO HAVE THE BEST HOME)Orignally I took a Deposit on the person in 
the 
> Netherlands,But will be returning/returned  their Deposit,as the 
time 
> and DISTANCE involved in the move,could NOT be worked out,in the 
TIME 
> I have left to remove the cars,so that the Cars/parts were sold to 
> someone on the east Coast(at this time I will not say)BUT he IS on 
> the DML,and is within driving/towing distance from my place here 
in 
> Connecticut,so there should be no problem with removal of 
> cars/parts,and I KNOW(and took his word that at least 3 of 4 cars 
> will be completed)And like me knows these cars,like the back of 
his 
> hand.(I just never had the time to finish)
> 
> Regards
> Claude
> 00570
> soon 
> vin#00000 
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Enid/Jeremiah 
> <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> > I have heard rumor from someone who is going to look into going 
to 
> Conneticut...I'll say more when something actually happens.  I 
hate 
> hearsay.
> > 
> > DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_w...> wrote:I was wondering if anyone 
> acquired the big Delorean parts and car 
> > auction on EBay, i seen the seller closed the auction early.
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To address comments privately to the moderating team, please 
> address:
> > moderators_at_dml_d...
> > 
> > For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
> www.dmcnews.com
> > 
> > To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:53:28 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: catalytic converter removal

There has  been a discussion about this before on the DML.

You can get a "test pipe" to replace the converter

or

You can remove the converter and hollow it out and then
put it back on to look stock.

Yes. it will give more torque and horsepower and your
engine and engine bay will run cooler.


The car will also still pass emission tests provided it is
properly maintained because the fuel injection system
is really accurate in controlling air to fuel ratio.

However, whether it is legal to do so depends upon where you live.

Most state exclude cars 25 years and older from emission test.

Illinois is one of those "pain in the ass" states that regulate cars 
forever.
Even California excludes older cars.

BOB







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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:56:07 +0100 (CET)
From: stefano putgioni <stefano_put_at_dml_yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: catalytic converter removal

the my opinion is not remove the converter,because not
have positive result.
remember which the engine is are project with the
catalilytic converter.  

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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:12:13 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Door Seals...

In addition to all this good advice Rob Grady taught me a "trick"
uses. He grinds the front edge undercutting it to tip the lip of the
seal foward. It is hard to explain exactly but in essance it gives the
seal more room and the door rubs against it less so the seal will last
longer. He also sells the seals in different heights so you can get a
better fit. Of course this is assuming you are buying the seals from a
Delorean vender and are getting the correct profile in the first
place. When you order the seals tell the vender you are getting them
from your problem and they will help you with correcting it. Under NO
circumstances attempt to adjust the doors to improve the seal fit. If
the doors open and close nicely and the gaps on the panels is pretty
even all around, the doors are OK. You may need to adjust the anchor
pins. With new seals installed you may not get the doors to close
right if the anchor pins where adjusted for the old, worn, seals.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, tobyp_at_dml_k... wrote:
> This sounds like you need to trim the fiberglass flange down a bit 
> in the areas where the seal is being split.  Some cars have a "tall" 
> flange on the underbody, and this can lead to overcompression of the 
> seal.  You can trim off up to about a quarter inch, reinstall the 
> seal, and see if this problem continues.  Careful not to trim so 
> much that the seal has nothing to grip to.  One way to be a little 
> more "scientific" about it is to remove the seal, apply some lumps 
> of modeling clay to the door surface that normally touches the seal, 
> and then close the door.  Then, open it back up, and measure the 
> clay thickness.  I think that you will find that it gets very thin 





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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:12:20 -0500
From: MichaelRPack1_at_dml_cs.com
Subject: Lotus Esprit gearbox, same as the DMC

Dave,

Have an 89 Lotus Esprit gearbox, same as the DMC. Renault called it the UN1 gearbox.

Here is a link that has some technical info about the Renault gearbox, from
Derek Bell: http://www.bell-performance.co.uk/. He uprated the gearbox and
has been able to run a 500hp car with this box, for 5-years, without any
problems.


Up-rating the Renault UN1/369 Transaxle 
 

Introduction 
           The Renault UN1 transaxle is very popular with various kit cars and replicas because it is (was?) easy to find, light, convenient in design  for  a mid engine installation (e.g. Lotus Esprit) and able to take much higher powers than normally intended. If you use the car mostly on the road, with no sprinting, and not using full chat in 5th   and drive with empathy for the machinery, you will probably  have no problems.

However, all things have limits and as owners of mid engine V8 powered replicas push power outputs above a mild level of tune with a  302 or 351 V8, the UN1/369 is right on the limit. The problem comes when you want to strengthen the transmission   as it is basically at the heart of the car, change the gearbox and you may well  have to change the bell housing /adapter, clutch, gearchange linkage, drive shafts, 

CV joints,  gearbox mounts etc etc. the alternative gearboxes are not cheap, and then you have to spend a lot of money and /or effort getting it to work!



This was  the problem I had with my Lola T70 with 500hp Small Block Chevy, In view of the above difficulties  in changing the gearbox, I resolved to try to strengthen the Renault as being the easiest solution, if it was possible.

Background and weaknesses of the box. 

                       It is difficult to find any hard facts out about the Renault transaxle, it has been used for many years in many vehicles, from the Master and Trafic vans to the Renault   GTA and the 21 turbo (the best one if you can get it, with 3.44:1 final drive ratio). I was however told by someone in the gearbox trade that it was originally designed as a racing/sports car gearbox by ZG. Certainly, as I got into gearbox design myself, I was struck by the similarity of the internal design to some Porsche (ZG) boxes for example.

It actually has a reputation as being a tough gearbox, any box that can take what the average van driver dishes out must have something going for it!

But the nemesis of a gearbox is torque, not horsepower. With the weight of an iron block V8 pressing sticky slicks firmly to the ground, and 420 lbs.ft. on the input shaft, there is nowhere to hide, and the weakest link will fail.

In the UN1 (the 369 is only very slightly different in small details), there are two main weaknesses and one lesser one.

1)       the overhung 5th gear (like many 5 speed boxes, the 5 speed UN1 is the earlier 4 speed version with an extra gear hung on the end!)

2)       the small diameter splined link between the clutch/input shaft, and the first motion shaft

3)       Flexing of the first motion shaft between the two ball bearings due to the thrust pushing them apart.

The good news is, all of these weaknesses are in the first motion shaft. The output shaft on the gearbox is massive and I’ve not heard of it failing, usually it is protected by the first motion shaft failing first! So the obvious path was to try to beef up the first motion/input shaft assembly.

Up-rating Gearbox shafts.

What makes life difficult as far as putting high torques through a gearbox, is that if you are stuck with modest shaft diameters (which we are, because the input shaft has to pass very close to the differential, in a tube) then only high strength steels will enable the required strength to be achieved in the space available.

A widely used steel for shafts is EN24, this is commonly used for good quality drive shafts. This is a “tough” steel in that it cannot be hardened to the levels that EN36 can, but can take some elastic deformation, whereas EN 36 is more stiff , it will break rather than bend, although it takes a lot of force to do either.

The point is, that to obtain the required strength in a gearbox shaft, you need

1)       the right alloy

2)       the right heat treatment

3)       the right surface treatment.

One possible solution which has been tried (and failed) is to eliminate the weak joint between the two pieces of the input shaft by welding.

The process of welding, however you do it involves generating high enough temperatures to melt the steel locally, this undoes the local heat treatment of the steel, both through the bulk and the surface. In the weld itself , the crystalline/grain structure of the steel which is a critical factor in the strength of the steel is completely changed, almost certainly for the worst. If the welding technique (e.g. MIG, or TIG) deposits new metal, then the composition of the weld metal will also define   the strength of the final shaft, general purpose MIG wire is pretty soft and is unlikely to have the required strength.

I considered  various ways of joining the existing Renault shaft  to the clutch extension shaft to improve its strength and get rid of the necked down weak area, but could not think of a way that got round the above difficulties. In fact, I came to the conclusion that the whole assembly, even without the weakness, had little strength to spare, which is why I went for the one piece shaft.

The one piece shaft 
I increased diameters wherever possible, eliminated the spline joining of the two pieces and all possible undercuts, and upgraded the steel, and the resulting shaft has given no trouble. I originally made it from EN24 so that the shaft had a little “give” so there was some resilience to absorb torque transients, but had to make another from EN36 because the shaft flexed too much between the two main bearings in the gearbox first motion shaft, which spoiled the mesh between the two shafts.



As you can see, the new shaft (lower in photo) eliminates the necking where the clutch and first motion shafts join, is larger in diameter wherever possible, and particularly so at the (overhung) 5th gear end which is substantially thicker , and has no undercut. the clutch spline is bigger as is first gear.   The EN 36 shaft has given no trouble, and has withstood full power and torque in all gears including 5th at the Nurburgring (185 and still going). A further three kits have been used in GT 40 replicas actively used in sprinting and hill climbs, including some with tuned 351 Windsor’s and the only thing they have broken is drive shafts!



Although the new bits (the complete mod includes a higher ratio first and second  gear and a host of smaller items including the seals needed to rebuild a box)) are not cheap, neither is any sensible alternative. Opinions vary, but the older Porsche 911 boxes are not regarded as being particularly strong as far as high torques are concerned (911’s have mostly small engines), and the stronger boxes like the G50 are expensive.

Hewlands cost £5k plus second-hand, and are noisy and baulky for a road car, ZF boxes are mostly ex Pantera with low final drive ratios and cost £4K and up.

 

So I took the view that up-rating the Renault box was the easiest route, and I still  think it’s the still the cheapest way to a practical quiet synchromesh gearbox which has taken in my case 420 lbs.ft. and 500hp for 5 years now.  The only other change required is the clutch spline which is now the larger Ford standard spline(1” dia, 23 teeth) for which clutch driven plates are easier to obtain than the Renault 24 mm spline.

The cost of the upgrade kit is £1750 inc VAT.  If you are interested, please contact me.




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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:23:00 -0600
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: DeLoreans on MG Rebroadcast

In case you missed it the first round, The American/Backyard Monsters
episode is going into re-runs now. This is the GT-40/Bronco/Rock-pusher
episode with a decent amount of DeLorean content in the background.  Check
Local Listings for times, Eastern times given here:

December 27 - 10 pm and 1 am (December 28) Right after the Hovercraft
episode - wow - a Rich W Marathon!

Jan 2 - 10 pm
Jan 3  - 1 am and 2 pm
Jan 19 - 8 pm and 11 pm
Jan 23 - 7 pm
Jan 24 - 2 am
Jan 25 - 3 pm

Dave S




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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:06:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: idle revisited

Hey group,

I've done some more fiddling around with my car's idle... trying to figure out what the deal is. Initially I thought the cable was somehow not getting enough tension to return the throttle arm to the microswitch, but it looks like that is no longer the issue. The throttle can return the arm to close the microswitch, but the microswitch doesn't make the car idle down every time like it should. I've lubricated the ever living mess out of every visable part of the throttle linkage from front to back on the car for reference. When the car is cold, it idles perfectly (well, as perfectly as a PRV CAN idle...), but as the car warms up, something suddenly happens and the car's idle jumps to 1500 and stays. I've watched it in the driveway as this happens, so since the throttle arm isn't moving, this tells me it's something in the automatic idle system. Several months ago I could blip the throttle, and the car would *sometimes* idle down to where it should, but this is no longer the case. The idle is getting progressively higher. After being driven, it now wants to idle at about 2000 rpms.

Over the last few days I've played around with some things. First I just unplugged the idle speed motor to see what happens. The idle will drop about 200 rpms sometimes, but will jump up other times when I try this, but when I plug it back in the car idles down to 800 rpms. So for an experiment, I tried switching out the idle speed motor with one from my old DeLorean. This changed nothing with the idle situation. So let me see if I understand how the idle system works- the idle speed motor is electronically controlled by the idle speed ECU. The idle speed motor controls the throttle plates by vacuum. For reference, I also put on a new CPR over the weekend, and I also know the O2 sensor is bad because the car hunts when it is very very cold. So I've deduced that my idle speed ECU is the problem after all of this. Am I correct? Is there any further ways to test it? I really don't want to chunk down that kind of money if I don't have to, but the idle situation is getting so annoying that I don't want to drive it any more. I would be grateful for any additional viewpoints or suggestions. Thanks!

Louie Golden
VIN 5252
NC plates "88 MPH"  

_____________________________________________________________
Buy and sell stocks in NFL teams! Get paid dividends every time your team wins! Free limited-time trial at http://www.AllSportsMarket.com/Index.asp?Refer=delomail



________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:29:33 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Lotus Esprit gearbox, same as the DMC

Internally the same except for final drive. Externally the 369 (DeLorean 
and Renault 30) box has a rod linkage, UN1 (Renault 25 and Esprit) is 
cable shfted

The DeLorean is even more limited in terms of torque than the UN1 in the 
Esprit thanks to a higher final drive putting more strain on the box.

Martin

MichaelRPack1_at_dml_cs.com wrote:

>Dave,
>
>Have an 89 Lotus Esprit gearbox, same as the DMC. Renault called it the UN1 gearbox.
>  
>





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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:34:54 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <webmaster_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: idle revisited

Louie Golden wrote:

> So let me see if I understand how the idle system works- the idle speed motor is electronically controlled by the idle speed ECU. The idle speed motor controls the throttle plates by vacuum. So I've deduced that my idle speed ECU is the problem after all of this. Am I correct? 
>
Not quite.The idlespeed motor is an air valve and allows a dynamically 
controlled air flow to bypass the throttle plates. However, I think 
you're on the money and it's the idlespeed ECU. Can you try another one? 
It may be the idlespeed thermistor too, but that's a pig to get to

Martin





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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 05:40:07 -0600
From: "Jerry Harry" <jlharry_at_dml_mcloudteleco.com>
Subject: Re: idle revisited

Well,
      Im not one of the guru's on this list, however I have spent  time on
this idle circuit.
     I think if your idle speed motor is working ( Buzzses with the key on,
engine off ) and your idle tends upward you have a vacuum ( inlet air) leak.
The leak prevents the idle motor from being in total control of the
available air to  the engine at idle.
     Where the air is getting in can sometimes be located with an accelerate
like carburetor cleaner.  Just a shot here and there to find the spot that
outside air is getting into the intake manifold. When the accelerate gets
in, the engine RPM will go up for a moment. I would start at the back left
side were the idle control motor hose goes into the intake manifold. (
O'ring missing)  Then at all the openning into the intake even the ones you
think are closed.
    The diafram in the ac/heater switch could be open or any one of the
vacumn lines under the dash could be open, broken, etc. So to get them all
out of the question I would remove the large rubber line coming out of the
intake manifold on the rider side and plug the manifold.  This way you know
the leak is not forward in the cars compartment.
I'm surte you have tried most of this but it might help someone.
Your's in the Hobby
Jerry Harry
Vin #4890



From: "Louie Golden" <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:06 PM
Subject: [DML] idle revisited


> Hey group,
>
> I've done some more fiddling around with my car's idle... trying to figure
out what the deal is. Initially I thought the cable was somehow not getting
enough tension to return the throttle arm to the microswitch, but it looks
like that is no longer the issue. The throttle can return the arm to close
the microswitch, but the microswitch doesn't make the car idle down every
time like it should. I've lubricated the ever living mess out of every
visable part of the throttle linkage from front to back on the car for
reference. When the car is cold, it idles perfectly (well, as perfectly as a
PRV CAN idle...), but as the car warms up, something suddenly happens and
the car's idle jumps to 1500 and stays. I've watched it in the driveway as
this happens, so since the throttle arm isn't moving, this tells me it's
something in the automatic idle system. Several months ago I could blip the
throttle, and the car would *sometimes* idle down to where it should, but
this is no longer the c!
>  ase. The idle is getting progressively higher. After being driven, it now
wants to idle at about 2000 rpms.
>
> Over the last few days I've played around with some things. First I just
unplugged the idle speed motor to see what happens. The idle will drop about
200 rpms sometimes, but will jump up other times when I try this, but when I
plug it back in the car idles down to 800 rpms. So for an experiment, I
tried switching out the idle speed motor with one from my old DeLorean. This
changed nothing with the idle situation. So let me see if I understand how
the idle system works- the idle speed motor is electronically controlled by
the idle speed ECU. The idle speed motor controls the throttle plates by
vacuum. For reference, I also put on a new CPR over the weekend, and I also
know the O2 sensor is bad because the car hunts when it is very very cold.
So I've deduced that my idle speed ECU is the problem after all of this. Am
I correct? Is there any further ways to test it? I really don't want to
chunk down that kind of money if I don't have to, but the idle situation is
getting so ann!
>  oying that I don't want to drive it any more. I would be grateful for any
additional viewpoints or suggestions. Thanks!
>
> Louie Golden
> VIN 5252
> NC plates "88 MPH"
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Buy and sell stocks in NFL teams! Get paid dividends every time your team
wins! Free limited-time trial at
http://www.AllSportsMarket.com/Index.asp?Refer=delomail
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
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www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:04:12 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: idle revisited

Idle speed motor BYPASSES the throttle plates. Has the same effect as
variably cracking them open with lower throttle plate screw (which is
another way to manually set idle speed -- just like an old fashioned
carburetor -- but without benefit of balancing air to each cylinder bank).

Don't you remember that #10115 ran manual idle circuit? Why not
experiment with the same on #5252?

For others' info: it is very easy to switch back and forth between
manual idle and CIS. Once manual circuit is tuned, difference is one
hose vs one screw.

I've re-written manual procedure in Forum files section (IDLE.TXT) for
better general consumption (earlier version was nothing more than text
from a private eMail).

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> Hey group,
> 
> I've done some more fiddling around with my car's idle... trying to
figure out what the deal is. Initially I thought the cable was somehow
not getting enough tension to return the throttle arm to the
microswitch, but it looks like that is no longer the issue. The
throttle can return the arm to close the microswitch, but the
microswitch doesn't make the car idle down every time like it should.
I've lubricated the ever living mess out of every visable part of the
throttle linkage from front to back on the car for reference. When the
car is cold, it idles perfectly (well, as perfectly as a PRV CAN
idle...), but as the car warms up, something suddenly happens and the
car's idle jumps to 1500 and stays. I've watched it in the driveway as
this happens, so since the throttle arm isn't moving, this tells me
it's something in the automatic idle system. Several months ago I
could blip the throttle, and the car would *sometimes* idle down to
where it should, but this is no longer the case. The idle is getting
progressively higher. After being driven, it now wants to idle at
about 2000 rpms.
> 
> Over the last few days I've played around with some things. First I
just unplugged the idle speed motor to see what happens. The idle will
drop about 200 rpms sometimes, but will jump up other times when I try
this, but when I plug it back in the car idles down to 800 rpms. So
for an experiment, I tried switching out the idle speed motor with one
from my old DeLorean. This changed nothing with the idle situation. So
let me see if I understand how the idle system works- the idle speed
motor is electronically controlled by the idle speed ECU. The idle
speed motor controls the throttle plates by vacuum. For reference, I
also put on a new CPR over the weekend, and I also know the O2 sensor
is bad because the car hunts when it is very very cold. So I've
deduced that my idle speed ECU is the problem after all of this. Am I
correct? Is there any further ways to test it? I really don't want to
chunk down that kind of money if I don't have to, but the idle
situation is getting so annoying that I don't want to drive it any
more. I would be grateful for any additional viewpoints or
suggestions. Thanks!
> 
> Louie Golden
> VIN 5252
> NC plates "88 MPH"  
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Buy and sell stocks in NFL teams! Get paid dividends every time your
team wins! Free limited-time trial at
http://www.AllSportsMarket.com/Index.asp?Refer=delomail




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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:21:45 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: idle revisited

When the motor is cold the O2 sensor is not being used so you cannot
say it is bad because the motor hunts badly when cold. I still think
you need to go over the advance system for something hooked up wrong,
a defective part, or a vacuum leak. In addition I would check the
thermister circuit to the idle ECU. This is the sensor that tells the
ECU to run the motor at a higher idle when cold. It is uncommon (but
not impossible) for the idle ECU to be defective. Since you say you
have another Delorean to swap parts with then just switch the ECU's
and you will know if the trouble moves to the other car you have a
problem with the ECU. On the Deloreans that I have worked on vacuum
leaks are the #1 cause of idle problems. Don't forget that you can
have vacuum leaks from the seals on the injectors. They get hard and
stop sealing when they get old. They can get so hard that the
injectors are actually loose, the only thing keeping them from falling
out are the clips. An "O" ring can be out of place between the
cylinder head and the intake manifold. The "O" ring for the air tube
to the idle motor can be missing or cut. The point is there are a lot
of places that you can be leaking vacuum and the effect is cumulative,
ie, they all add up so it can be many tiny leaks making it impossible
for the idle motor to control air. If you have never had the top of
the motor off maybe it is time to do it, it is over 20 years since
those seals where put in origionally. Even if it was taken apart,
maybe there  is a stripped bolt, or an "O" ring missing or out of
place. I am always amazed by what I find on some cars, from
missing/lost harware, to parts put together wrong etc.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> Hey group,
> 
> I've done some more fiddling around with my car's idle... trying to
figure out what the deal is. Initially I thought the cable was somehow
not getting enough tension to return the throttle arm to the
microswitch, but it looks like that is no longer the issue. The
throttle can return the arm to close the microswitch, but the
microswitch doesn't make the car idle down every time like it should.
I've lubricated the ever living mess out of every visable part of the
throttle linkage from front to back on the car for reference. When the
car is cold, it idles perfectly (well, as perfectly as a PRV CAN
idle...), but as the car warms up, something suddenly happens and the 




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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:12:43 -0500
From: Jim Strickland <ihaveanaccount_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: catalytic converter removal

It may give you better performance, but it is not necessarily guaranteed.
 Cleaning out the cat and using a free flow muffler usually increase peak
horsepower, but depending on the setup, can adversely affect torque
because of the lack of "back pressure".  

I don't think it is legal to remove your cat in any state.  Just because
they don't test for it doesn't make it legal.

In Florida, there are no emissions or safety inspections.  Does this mean
I can legally run a 10,000HP jet engine in my car?  no.

Jim
1537


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:53:28 -0600 Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
writes:
...

> Yes. it will give more torque and horsepower and your
> engine and engine bay will run cooler.
>
...
>
> However, whether it is legal to do so depends upon where you live.
> 
> Most state exclude cars 25 years and older from emission test.
> 
...
> 
> BOB
> 


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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:31:33 -0500
From: Eric Itzel <eric_at_dml_seviernet.com>
Subject: wishing everyone a Merry Christmas

Hey Everyone
 
I'm just wishing everyone a merry Christmas. May your stockings be
stuffed with useful DeLorean items and I hope everyone traveling has a
safe journey.
 
Eric Itzel
vin 4433
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:41:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: Re: catalytic converter removal

I've given my opinion on this before, but since the topic comes up from time to time, I may as well share my two cents AGAIN ;-). I have driven several DeLoreans with their cats hollowed out. I can't say I feel any difference in performance with the cats hollowed out, and the car is no louder on the inside with the cat hollowed out. Martin Gutkowski tells me I need to drive those cars BEFORE and AFTER to feel the difference in power though. I can't say I've ever driven a DeLorean that was remarkably faster than another though, and I've driven my fair share of the cars. There are however two benefits to getting rid of the cat- 1) the engine bay and exhaust system are remarkably cooler 2) the exhaust note is more "masculine" and throatier sounding, especially at idle. It's somehow not louder though. The difference between the pressure of exhaust coming out of the exhaust pipes is also rather large, so I suppose hollowing out a cat will give you a freer flowing exhaust system, if not a few horses. The downside is that the DeLoreans I've driven without cats DO have stinky exhausts. It's not a lot of fun driving behind one of these cars... it made my eyes burn following Bill Robertson down to the SEDOC meet earlier this year. 

I'm considering hollowing out my cat, and putting a Borla muffler on my car though. I say Borla because they're stainless... Flowmaster is aluminum. I figure why not keep the whole system stainless if I'm going to change things out? Whenever I get around to doing this, I'll post the results to the list.

Louie Golden
VIN 5252
NC Plates "88 MPH"

_____________________________________________________________
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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:37:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Louie Golden <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: Re: idle revisited

Of course I remember my last DeLorean ran on a manual idle speed circuit Bill. The car actually ran much better that way. I am going to go and buy some vacuum caps and cap off the idle speed motor and see if my idle problem goes away when the idle speed motor is non-functional. However the idle speed motor does buzz with the ignition on, so I think it's OK. I can try running a manual idle circuit for a while, but don't want to keep the car that way permanently. The more things I change from stock on the car, the less someone down the road who works on the car will understand how it operates. I don't plan on ever selling the car, but I may have someone else work on it eventually, and I'm also not going to be around permanently either. Someone will inherit the car one day. I try to look to the future with these cars...

I've been told before that the DeLorean O2 sensor does nothing until about 300 degrees. Why then is it so common for people to diagnose a car that hunts at idle to have a defective O2 sensor? Or is it only when the car hunts when *WARM* that the O2 sensor is bad? So would a vacuum leak cause hunting when cold, and high idle when warm then?

Just to reiterate my car's behavior, when the engine is VERY cold (when it has been sitting overnight), it does hunt for about a minute, then the idle smoothes out to about 800 rpms and stays that way for several minutes until the engine gets warmer. Then something changes the idle speed- the car jumps from idling perfectly at 800 rpms to idling at 1500 rpms. It's literally like the flipping a switch. If I go out and drive the car after this, the idle will get stuck at about 2000 rpms now. The idle speed has progressively gotten higher since I've owned the car. These symptoms don't sound like a vacuum leak to me... it sounds like something electronic... though I could be wrong. I'm certain the car has had the intake manifold off in the last 5-10 years. It was serviced through DeLorean Motor center until the late '90s until the car came to the east coast. The car has probably $10k-$15k in reciepts from DeLorean Motor Center for work done between '95 & '98. DeLorean Motor Center put on a new water pump in '98 I believe, so that pretty much means the top half of the engine was off as recently as that, and could have been off again up to 2 years ago by a mechanically savvy former owner who was an avid DML member (Rob Starling).

Just as another reference point the car idles extremely richly when the car is very cold (ie- sitting over night). That's why I tried putting on an ECU from Bill's parts engine. The car runs so richly that it puffs out unburned fuel. After the car has been running about 3 minutes I'd say this problem goes away. This roughly coincides with the car's hunting as well. After the car has been running about 5 minutes the high idle begins. I don't *think* the car has any vacuum leaks, though I will try and find some now per everyones suggestions. I know that some of the vacuum lines are showing their age however, as Bill and I replaced a few while putting in a new CPR the other day.

Regarding the idle speed ECU- I don't have another car to pull parts from. I have a few random parts that I pulled off my old DeLorean which was wrecked earlier this year, but that was before I wrecked the car. The car is not in my posession, and the parts I have from it are completely random. Do you guys think a vendor would let me return an ECU if I bought one, and it didn't fix my idle problem? I just have a huge problem spending so much for this part.

Louie Golden
VIN 5252
NC Plates "88 MPH"

_____________________________________________________________
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