From: <>
To: <>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 1958
Date: Friday, April 09, 2004 8:41 AM

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Broken Bolt advice
From: Phil Priestley <>

2. Re: Constant High Idle Speed
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>

3. Cleaning the stainless steel body
From: "Roland Smith" <>

4. Re: Stainless steel problems PLEASE HELP ME!!!!
From: "Roland Smith" <>

5. I'm seeking a door air vent / deflector
From: "gzapf" <>

6. Re: Lowering Springs
From: "gzapf" <>

7. *Sigh* Didn't need to take that manifold off.
From: "thinkstainless" <>

8. Re: Concours Judging For Options & Accessories
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>

9. Water leaks
From: "TalksToGod" <>

10. 7mm Water Pump Backing Bolts
From: Enid/Jeremiah <>

11. Re: Cooling fans won't turn off..?
From: "ksgrimsr" <>

12. Raffle Car Update 100

13. Re: Stainless steel problems PLEASE HELP ME!!!!
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>

14. Re: Concours Judging For Options & Accessories
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>

15. RE: Re: Front Brake Rotors
From: "robert parker" <>

16. Pinball
From: "Robert Moseley" <>

17. Re: Clutch bleeding
From: "EJ Chambers" <>

18. Re: Removing Intake Manifold
From: "Michael Paine" <>

19. New POLL : To drive or not to drive?
From: "Robert Moseley" <>

20. Re: Constant High Idle Speed
From: Martin Gutkowski <>

21. Re: World premiere DeLorean video
From: "delorean9000" <>

22. Re: Concours Competiton

23. Re: Concours Judging For Options & Accessories

24. RE: Grey Stain
From: "Jack Singer" <>

25. Re: Concours Competiton

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:30:15 -0700
From: Phil Priestley <>
Subject: Re: Broken Bolt advice

I just went through something similar with Audrey (vin 2105).

  When I was removing the intake manifold to replace the o-rings one of 
the bolts sheared off in the head. I tried drilling it to tap it out 
with no luck. I put it all back together and drove her to my mechanic. 
He welded a nut onto the exposed portion of the bolt and was able to 
back it out.  He also used the same trick to get the broken exhaust 
stud out. It took several times and at one point he thought that he 
would have to pull the head and send it to a machine shop to have it 
drilled out, but in the end it worked. I think that as the bolt would 
break off below the surface he would tack a smaller diameter bolt on to 
extend it out to where he could work on it.

BTW, Audrey is named for the man eating plant in "little shop of 
Horrors" because she always seems to be wanting me to feed her a little 
more money.

On Apr 8, 2004, at 5:09 PM, Michael Paine wrote:

> Hey all,
> Problem: Broken Bolt
> Location: Outer Edge, Corner of Passenger Head (near jump lead post).
> Condition: Not too bad, Exposed 3/8" of bolt.
> <insert all advised ways to extract a broken bolt>
> Extended Problem: Broken bit in broken bolt
> Condition: VERY bad!


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 04:43:39 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: Re: Constant High Idle Speed

First thing that I'd try would be to test the Idle Speed Microswitch. With the key in the on 
position, flipping the switch by rotating the Throttle Spool, you should hear the clicking of 
a solenoid for the vacuum lines clicking. You may also need to test the wires that connect 
to the Idle Speed Regulator. Kind of rare, but it turned out to be a bad wire on my car, and 
tthe cause of the problem I was experiencing on my car, that had the same symptoms.

vin 6585 "X"

--- In, "dukeofclassiccars" <tswatch_at_dml_m...>
> Well, I bought my first DMC about 3 months ago and been spending a 
> lot of time fixing up the mess of the previous owner. 
> I'm stuck on one last problem.  I have a constant high idle speed
> 1,900 RPM.  Twice what it should be.


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:12:10 -0700
From: "Roland Smith" <>
Subject: Cleaning the stainless steel body

My 1981 DeLorean VIN 6667 purchased about two months ago was quite dirty and
dull from sitting outside for more than two years.

I have washed it with auto wash soap, wiped it with a Windex wipe and
cleaned it with stainless steel polish.  While that improved the finish, it
did not fully bring it back.

This last weekend I did a three step washing process:
    1.  I washed it with the auto wash soap to remove
         the dirt from the surface.
    2.   I washed it with baking soda on a sponge
          covered with a rough fabric but soft enough
          not to scratch.
    3.   I washed it, again, with auto wash soap to clean
           away any residue of the baking soda.

It looks the best it has since I purchased it.  I plan to use baking soda
again and some more of the stainless steel cleaner to further improve on it.

Roland Smith
Oakland, California
VIN 6667 .


Message: 4
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:18:24 -0700
From: "Roland Smith" <>
Subject: Re: Stainless steel problems PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

Try baking soda on a cloth covered sponge.

Also, Bon Ami polishing cleanser used with a very wet wash cloth and softly
applied will work.  Do not scrub.

Roland Smith
Oakland, California
VIN 6667
----- Original Message -----
From: "stainlessillusion2000" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 12:15 AM
Subject: [DML] Stainless steel problems PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

> hello list..ok...i posted about this subject before....but the
> answer did not help...ok so here is my problem....tonight, i went up
> to my parking garage to uncover my delorean, just to give it a check
> up and what do i see.....well, my delorean has bloches about the
> size of a quarter all around the body.....


Message: 5
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:21:34 -0000
From: "gzapf" <>
Subject: I'm seeking a door air vent / deflector

My driver's side one is busted, and my passenger side one is perfect.
 Does anyone have a spare part #100761 they'd like to sell?  Only one
of the big vendors appears to stock it, and only sells it in new pairs
for $60.


Message: 6
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:01:44 -0000
From: "gzapf" <>
Subject: Re: Lowering Springs

I'm considering lowering the front of my DeLorean too... if it'll
improve my view.  For those who have done this, is there an
improvement in visibility?


--- In, "EJ Chambers" <marmieej_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> I am looking at purchasing a set of Lowering Springs for my DeLorean.
> I am debating between the DMCH set and PJ Grady's set. DMCH lowers the
> entire car where as Grady's only lowers the front springs to their
> original design height.
> Any insight about either of these sets would be great. I would love to
> hear feedback from people who have installed these new springs to see
> if they like them, would they have done differently, etc..
> Thanks in advance!!
> Ej
> Vin 4475


Message: 7
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:17:20 -0000
From: "thinkstainless" <>
Subject: *Sigh* Didn't need to take that manifold off.

Well after spending countless hours doing my first tear down on my 
delorean, having no mechanical experience, after lifting the 
Manifold to see where this "leak" was comming from, I finially 
figured it. It was behind the engine the whole time, I had found 
a "T" shaped plasic piece, secured into three other hoses. 
Apparently when the car was running hot, it melted an already 
corroded spot in the "T" and busted a hole in it, thus dumping all 
my coolant on top of engine, under the manifold. Now, I don't know 
what the hell this piece is, like I said its "T" shaped, the top 
areas of the "T" are larger than the bottom tube of the "t" which is 
much much smaller. Like I said I was able to remove it by lifting 
the throttle body and reaching all the way back behind the 
engine. "Note to self .... buy a part manual" *Smirk*

Thanks Guys,

Mr. T.


Message: 8
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:00:17 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: Re: Concours Judging For Options & Accessories

On that same note, a friend of mine was once at a car show where 
there were doing concourse judging for several Chrysler vehicles. One 
guy who had an early 70's B Body had gotton marked off points for 
incorrect washer fluid color. After arguing with the judge, the guy 
pulled out his drivers license, build sheet, and several old pay 
check stubs. When they compared signatures, it was indeed proved that 
he himself was the one whom had signed-off on his own car _at_dml_ the 
factory when he built it! And as he blatantly put it, workers only 
concerns are to install what they have on the build sheet. And 
sometimes the lack of specific parts on hand at the time will result 
in lack of certain builds, as well as the use of substituted parts, 
per what certain specs require. Workers' only concern _at_dml_ the factories 
are to assemble cars, and get them out asap. When building a car, 
workers don't say to themselves, "20 years from now, will this car 
meet the stringent requirements of a concourse competition?" This is 
the last possible concern assembly line workers have. So what's 
actually original, and what's "considered" original can be two 
seperate things.

DeLorean specific, the question that I'd have is in regard to 
accessories. Granted, I wasn't there when authorized dealers were 
selling DeLoreans off their lots, so I've no idea as to what went on. 
BUT, every car that I have ever seen on a lot will have 2 seperate 
stickers. The MSRP factory which states what comes standard/optional, 
and a secondary one which lists additional charges for Dealer Prep, 
and Dealer Installed Accessories, etc... The problem that I'm seeing 
here is that the Millennum Concours manual does NOT differentiate 
between "Dealer Accessories", and "Dealer >Installed< Accessories". 
If you've got a Luggage Rack installed, and NO delivery sheet to 
prove that it was an accessory that was installed _at_dml_ the Dealership 
prior to delivery/purchage, shouldn't that be considered for a 
repremand for points deduction since the car has been modified by the 

vin 6585 "X"

--- In, mike.griese_at_dml_w... wrote:
> Marc - the process DMCH uses is not very different than
> how the Mustang Club of America or the National Corvette
> Restorers Society run their concours events.  The 


Message: 9
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 06:37:57 -0000
From: "TalksToGod" <>
Subject: Water leaks

I have been meaning to get some opinions on this- When I pulled my
DeLorean in to work on it, the rugs and floor was flooded with water.
I know my doors don't leak because in the summer with the rain and
everything I had to battle the inner seals to stop leaking and did so
sucessfully. I also checked out most of the points in the manual where
water leaks may occur. Is there anything underdash that can leak water
perhaps from the cowl or...? Thanks guys Dan Benedek #5003 (on the
road in a few days :) :))


Message: 10
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Enid/Jeremiah <>
Subject: 7mm Water Pump Backing Bolts

Does anyone know where to find the 7mm Water Pump Backing Bolts?  From what I hear, they can be quite hard to find.  I have heard people who replace their water pumps just use the same bolts, but I'd really like to replace mine.  Anyone know where you can get these specific bolts?  thank you!

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 11
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:27:37 -0000
From: "ksgrimsr" <>
Subject: Re: Cooling fans won't turn off..?

I'm not sure your problem is the same as mine, but I had an issue 
last year that had the same symptoms you describe.

In my case, the problem was a side effect of interaction between the 
hysteresis of the otterstat switch and the effective setpoint of 
thermostat. The otterstat has a bit of hysteresis built in so that 
when it turns the fans on, the switch remains activated until the 
temperature comes down below a certain point at which time the 
switch opens. In my case, the thermostat was not performing properly 
and would not permit the temperature to come down low enough for the 
otterstat to turn off. In essence my thermostat was performing as if 
it had a setpoint too high. Replacing the thermostat solved my 
problem. You may be experiencing a similar issue, especially if you 
have an antique thermostat.


--- In, "dmcorlando2003" <SundeQuick_at_dml_a...> 
> Ok, here is the scenerio....
> My fans turn on when the A/C is on and turn off and on with the 
> cycling of the A/C compressor.  However, when they are activated 
> the otterstat they stay on.  The system never cools past the first 
> mark in order for the otterstat to turn them off. 


Message: 12
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:00:47 EDT
Subject: Raffle Car Update 100

Yes we are at the 100 ticket sales mark so we are 2/3 of the way there and 
pretty much on target for what we expect.

The car is not what we expected and this is a good thing.

Dave has taken the car to the next level and he has continued to improve the 
car.  The surprising thing is how well this car handles and I think Dave is 
going to expand on this in a later post.

The car will get its final interior touch up at the tech seminar in Chicago 
on I believe may 15th or so.  

The car passed the emissions with flying colors and the new video is up on 
the web page.

Remember the May 1st deadline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 13
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:46:22 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <>
Subject: Re: Stainless steel problems PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

If you are in a parking deck garage and the decks leak and if it is
leaking over your car it could be what is staining it. Try using #80
sandpaper being careful to only rub in the direction of the grain.
Blow the dust off frequently so you don't put the rust back into the
S/S. Finish up with a blending pad. You will wind up doing the whole
car so it looks even. After you get it cleaned up you will have to
either park somewhere else or use a waterproof cover.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, "stainlessillusion2000" <dmcman_at_dml_h...>
> hello list..ok...i posted about this subject before....but the 
> answer did not help...ok so here is my problem....tonight, i went up 
> to my parking garage to uncover my delorean, just to give it a check 
> up and what do i see.....well, my delorean has bloches about the 
> size of a quarter all around the body.....massive amounts of 


Message: 14
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 06:18:12 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: Re: Concours Judging For Options & Accessories

I both agree, and disagree with you on this subject here.

A councourse competition is important. We can set the standards for
what truly is original. This helps to educate prospective owners, and
help build confidence in them to know that a standard has been set.
Therefore increasing the value of our cars, thru that confidence.

However, you're absolutely right that we must also take the same
amount of effort, if not even more to futher educate people as to what
makes a safe, reliable car that is suitable for daily driving, even if
it isn't used for that purpose. But in order to do this, we mussent
sacrifice anything in the concourse catergory. Instead, competition
needs to be divided into 3 catergories:

1. Concourse.
Must be presentable as an example of the state that a freshly
assembled car *should* have appeared, according to it's build date, as
soon as it left the assembly line. To hell with Dealer Options. If
you've got a Luggage Rack installed, IMO, you should have points
deducted, as you have modified the car. If a part as been replaced for
safety reasons, (ie coolant bottle), original component must accompany
the car, and must be ready to re-install WITHOUT any modifications
nessisary to the car. Plus, replacement/substituted parts MUST be
installed the same way. So if you've got an SS Braided Clutch line, it
MUST be installed in the same location as the original. If it's run on
the side of the chassis next to the A/C hoses, deduct points. If two
of more cars are tied for position, fuction of Air Conditioning system
should be tested. Lowest ambient duct temperature, quickest cooling
effiency, etc.

2. Driver Ready.
Car must retain as stock an appearance as possible, but must meet, or
exceed factory intended reliability. Must have all Safety Campaigns
installed, and known factory issues MUST be rectified, but MUST
function as closely to factory specifications as possible! Ie. Deduct
one point for a Blue Fan Fail relay. No points for facctory bypass
wires. Add one point if Hervey's Maxi-Brute installed, but add two for
Fan Zilla. Both perform the same task, but the Fan Zilla retains the
function of the Fan Fail light. However, bonus points can be added if
independant engineering is incorporated. So, I've you've got a Fan
Zilla that retains the "Fan Fail" light, BUT utilized independant
wiring to isolate the fans, that would be consideration for an extra
point. In addition, and wiring modifications would have to look as
stock as possible with both wiring conduit, and aditional fuse boxes
that may be installed. After market raidios are permitted, as would be
speakers. BUT, they must retain as stock an appearance as possibble.
Kickpanel speakers are acceptable, as well as speakers mounted in the
rear firewall, above the Parcel Shelf, deduct points for speaker
boxes, and exposed amplifiers that interfear with the intended
function of the parcel shelf. If an R-134a conversion has been
completed, the duct temperature must either meet, or exceed factory
specs for ambient duct temperatures. Upgraded alternators, turn signal
conversions, etc. If judges cannot understand, or question any
modifications, owner explanation of function, and appearance may be
taken into consideration. In addition, any parts that have been
replaced, shouldn't be cross-over. Ie. Non-Girling hydraulics,
non-Lift-o-Mat struts, etc. If something is in question, owner should
provide proof that the part(s) in question were indeed purchased thru
an approved DeLorean vendor. Non-functional accessories should only be
considered in the even of a tie-breaker, but should have points
deducted regardless, if they have been improperly applied/installed.
ie. misaligned Sidestripes, luggage racks, etc. Although, bonus
acccessories that are installed, and help function, such as the
luggage rack for transporting a spare tire, should be given extra
points. And still this can go on, and on to be hammered out further.
Depending, we may actually be able to reward people additional points
for higher milage as well...

3. Peoples' Choice.
Anything goes, and everyone gets to cast their vote for their favorite
car among the participants. Depending upon participation, this can be
divided ever further between both painted, and unpainted cars. No
restrictions on cars, except that they must be posses the same
reliability factor as cars in the "Driver Ready" catergory have, but
there are no restrictions on drivetrain originality. No points
deduction, just eligibility qualifications to enter.

And as with all, restrictions on how many participants per competition
can be limited, or divided up between milage. We really do need
something definetive such as these two catergories to answer two very
important questions: "What is original?", and just as important, "What
is reliable?" Educate people, and you kill the stigma around our cars.
You'll also perk interest, and raise values, and encourage vendor
loyalty on the side too.

If you want people to speak out about what direction to take our cars
for these competitions, consider all of this.

vin 6585 "X"

--- In, Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> Marc,
> You raise an very important question that we are also trying to
> with other car clubs.
> Here is the best example,  a stock Nash Metropolitan had no seat
> poor brakes and only stick shift.
> Clearly, a metropolitan without seat belts is a very serious safety 
> hazard.  Should this car be given more points than a car with seat


Message: 15
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:36:45 +0000
From: "robert parker" <>
Subject: RE: Re: Front Brake Rotors

I have '78 Capri disc pads on the front. (My brother owns a '78 Capri)   Got 
them at Whitlock Auto Supply for $5.99 with Lifetime Warranty.    A PERFECT 
match for OEM DMC pads. Might one also speculate '78 Capri rotors are 
interchangeable, also?      Drive Stainless    Robert   VIN 6924

From: "therealdmcvegas" <>
Subject: [DML] Re: Front Brake Rotors
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 19:19:33 -0000

There was one post 7 years ago that stated the 77 Capri pads and
rotors are supposed to be the same, and another that confirmed that a
European version of the Capri is a match. But still, you'd have to
make the comparison side by side.


Message: 16
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 08:31:58 -0000
From: "Robert Moseley" <>
Subject: Pinball

Does anyone have one of the "Back To The Future" pinball machines that
they are willing to part with and sell?
Now that I am getting a bigger house I will have a spot to put it
and I have always wanted one!
Let me know.
- Videobob


Message: 17
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:22:31 -0000
From: "EJ Chambers" <>
Subject: Re: Clutch bleeding

When I was bleeding my clutch the last go around, we used an 8mm
socket to initially open the bleed screw and then an 8mm wrench for

I always try to find a standard size that fits before I attempt SAE
sizes just due to the massive amount metric nuts/bolts there are on
the car compared to SAE. (Maybe where I have SAE just originated from
a previous owner too)

Vin 4475

--- In, "eremhcel" <dmcfive0_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> Hello. I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Since I have my 
> manifold off, I decided to bleed my clutch with new fluid. The last 
> time I did it (Sept. 2001), I was able to reach in and turn the screw 
> without trouble. Now when I try to loosen the screw, It's almost 
> frozen on there and the wrench was starting to round it off. I was 
> thinking to get vise grips on there and taking the screw off and 
> replacing it. Can I get this screw from Pep Boys or other auto parts 
> store and what size do I get? Thanks for any help. 
> Mike 
> 5623
> PS- The wrench I was using was 5/16. It seemed to fit good. Was that 
> the right size?


Message: 18
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:58:57 -0400 EDT
From: "Michael Paine" <>
Subject: Re: Removing Intake Manifold

Leave that "metal bar" alone, that is the pipe to the cold start valve 
- it will come off with the manifold. If you really want to take it off 
- there is a screw in the middle of where it ataches to the manifold. 
Be warned, there is an O-Ring under it and you may need to replace it 
if you take it off.

There are 4 bolts that hold the intake to the engine - 2 on the left 
and 2 on the right.


vin 6067

> New problem.
> Removing the intake manifold. I have been able to move the top part 
> thats conected to the distributor cap, but when I got benieth it, 
> theres a metal line/bar that goes to something off the left hand 


Message: 19
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 09:04:31 -0000
From: "Robert Moseley" <>
Subject: New POLL : To drive or not to drive?

Hi ya'll.
I have created a poll asking people if they will be driving their
Deloreans to the show, or towing, or flying.
I am wondering how many of us are willing to make the long trip
in our cars, for me it will be close to 1000 miles.
Please participate in the poll, and it concludes the day before the show. 
- Videobob
VIN#5278 (+ some new parts)

PS: Yes, I have repaired my wrecked car and it is back on the road!
Special thanks to all of those who helped me in the repairs and
upgrades including Rob Grady, Don Stegar and all the folks at DMCH who
installed my new windshield and supplied with me with some much needed
parts, and especially John Hervey who took the time to personaly work
on my car and hook me up with all the upgrades I needed.
Without these contributors to the Delorean community our cars
might not be usable as daily drivers.
All of us have bought from one of these people at one time or
another or at least been given priceless advise.
Without them, our cars might dissapear from the roads.
Thanks guys.
- VB


Message: 20
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:05:45 +0100
From: Martin Gutkowski <>
Subject: Re: Constant High Idle Speed

Sounds like the idlespeed thermistor has died. Check resistance between 
pins 9 and 11 on the plug going to the idlespeed computer (it's written 
on the box which is which), if it's open-circuit, there's your problem.

Best Wishes


dukeofclassiccars wrote:

>Well, I bought my first DMC about 3 months ago and been spending a 
>lot of time fixing up the mess of the previous owner.  Unfortunately 
>I'm stuck on one last problem.  I have a constant high idle speed of 
>1,900 RPM.  Twice what it should be.


Message: 21
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:59:07 -0000
From: "delorean9000" <>
Subject: Re: World premiere DeLorean video


For more information about the DeLorean documentary airing on TRIO 
next month, please visit:


--- In, ElectroDFW_at_dml_c... wrote:
> MODERATOR NOTE: Trio is a somewhat obscure cable channel not 
available in all markets. ALSO - last I heard Daniel McGauley was 
still selling the only legal copies of the movie - he lists it on 
ebay very often. 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi All,
> Be sure to set your Tivo's for this:
> Doc Block: On Sunday, June 6, TRIO presents a documentary block 
> featuring films that cover the wide-ranging subjects of pop-
culture classic 
> failures. 
> <snip>
> ...and the world television premiere of the 60-minute version of 
> Pennebaker’s DeLorean (the 1981 film made just before the 
automaker’s business  demise) airs at 10:00 p.m., ET.
> Is this already available? If so, who has it, and how much?


Message: 22
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 08:29:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Concours Competiton

In a message dated 4/8/2004 8:43:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:
Until Ken K came along, this was how I saw things... and I had never 
been to any DeLorean event for the first 6 years of my ownership 
until Ken had his show in 1998 and invited daily drivers.  I just 
wish I could convince Ken that he does not need the Concours event at 
all..  Does anyone go to these shows FOR the Concours?  Ken's shows 
are about the people, which is why I have yet to miss one (even 
though I know there is a long list of people who would love to kick 
my ass!)

I happen to agree with this and it was the motivating factor for the show was 
to get the ownership to come out and show the cars and to gather for a great 

Based on the above where Marc says Ken's shows are about people, I totally 
and concours owners (myself included) are people to.  So as I have stated 
early on and will continue to do, we will not exclude any faction of the DeLorean 
Community.  This show is open to everyone. And as Marc has stated he has 
tried to convince me not to do a Concours as much as I have tried to convince him 
that is part of any cars community and a show that includes everyone needs to 
have everyone participate on whatever level they want.
I have entered my car in two other concours events and I think we as a 
community do a better job on the concours event.

This year because of all the new addtions over the past few years we have 
special catagories for best lights, best shifter, best stereo and more.  
Basically because you are doing more with the cars so we need to recognize that as 

Remember to bring your Delorean or BTTF model we will again judge for best 

Do you realize that if everyone that is coming to the show would find just 
one person that was not planning on going and bring them what the size of this 
show could be.  We are still getting only about 2% of the cars out there to 
come to the shows.  Even at 150 cars.  I am sure each one of you knows at least 
one person with a D that does not even know about the show.

Awareness is the biggest part of this and we need to make people aware.

Marc and I have gone over this a number of times and I even asked the 
original post to not be posted but the moderators chose to as they should and we have 
this discussion again. It comes up every year.  And every year I say I am not 
going to respond and then I end up responding.

Well the bottom line is that the show is for everyone no matter what your 
views, affilitation, whether an owner or an enthusiast, Concours, Daily Driver or 
slighlty modified like Curtis or The D Rex.  There is something for everyone.

We think we will have 4 to 6 Time machines at the show.  Again only time will 
tell as only two owners have registered so far the other 4 promising to do so 
shortly.  It looks like a minimum of 4 with two owners being a bit more 

Come to the show and check it out

Marc per your last comment

If you want I will rent a dunking booth and we can put Marc in it.

That would probably be my best fund raiser LOL

Thanks Marc and all of you


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 23
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:07:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Concours Judging For Options & Accessories

I have to disagree.  

Every concours event is based around originality.  That is 
what the contest is all about.  It is NOT a car show.  It 
is judging the adherence of the car to the original effort
of the manufacturer.  To take your argument to the extreme, 
the original 1898 Benz would be worth more with power steering,
seatbelts, xenon headlights and disc brakes?

To take your Metropolitan example, adding disc brakes and 
seat belts may make it a better car.  In the eyes of many,
it does not make it a better Metropolitan.  

Like it or not, the rest of the world values and pays for 
originality.  Look at Sports Car Market, Hemmings Motor News
or any other enthusiast magazine and note that cars restored
to original condition almost always bring higher money.  It
doesn't matter if later technology is better. 


> Marc,
> You raise an very important question that we are also trying to reconcil 
> with other car clubs.
> Here is the best example,  a stock Nash Metropolitan had no seat belts, 
> poor brakes and only stick shift.
> Clearly, a metropolitan without seat belts is a very serious safety 
> hazard.  Should this car be given more points than a car with seat belts?
> What about adding disc brakes. ?  With all cars on the road able to stop 
> better than a stock met isn't this a better car that should get more points?


Message: 24
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 09:25:49 -0400
From: "Jack Singer" <>
Subject: RE: Grey Stain

Does anyone know if there is a stain that can convert a black dash to



Message: 25
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:46:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Concours Competiton

Prices are ALWAYS set by the buyer.  


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
> and car prices are set by what someone is willing to sell it for, or 
> pay for it.


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