From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2269
Date: Monday, October 11, 2004 7:19 AM


There are 23 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Clarifications: Bill Robertson's engine(s) [Long]
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

2. Manual trans drain plug
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

3. Re: "French" PRV
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

4. Fall Tour Urgent Hotel News!!!
From: "turbodmc3113" <turbodmc_at_dml_hotmail.com>

5. Re: Chevy Engine swap
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

6. Re: Straight skinny on fuel accumulators
From: "checksix3" <jetjock11_at_dml_hotmail.com>

7. Re: DeLorean Dignity
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>

8. RE: DeLorean Dignity
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_comcast.net>

9. Rear Axle
From: "Tom Watkins" <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>

10. New member here
From: <maple80_at_dml_devaddict.com>

11. Re: DeLorean Dignity
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

12. Re: DeLorean Dignity
From: "Dani B" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

13. Delorean rear view camera
From: jordan rubin <nuttenschleuder_at_dml_yahoo.com>

14. Re: Delorean rear view camera
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

15. Seeking the truth (and nameless postings and fuel accumulators)
From: "James" <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>

16. Re: Rear Axle
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>

17. Re: Manual trans drain plug
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

18. Re: DeLorean Dignity
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>

19. BTTF Engine Swap comments
From: "Tom Watkins" <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>

20. Re: Lockzilla or WingsAloft???
From: "darryl" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>

21. PRV Engine Information
From: Todd Nelson <tan5732_at_dml_rit.edu>

22. Fuse 5 keeps blowing, idle speed motor not vibrating...
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

23. Re: Chevy Engine swap
From: "darryl" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:11:58 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Clarifications: Bill Robertson's engine(s) [Long]



Hopefully the moderator will let this through before engine repower
thread is nipped. Is somewhat illustrative of PRV history, as well as
potentially interesting to all these people apparently talking behind
my back (whoever suspected that doing whatever one wants with a car
titled in one's own name would create a controversy).

In the mid-late 1980's, some fellow in Ohio was selling imported
Renault Z7V's (basically identical to Volvo B27E) complete and ready
to drop into DeLoreans that had melted their factory blocks. I guess
that was a common problem. B27E differs from B28F (basically DeLo
engine) as follows:
- Obviously 2.7 liter displacement
- 9.5:1 compression
- Single piece fuel/air mixture unit
- No deceleration valves in the throttle plates
- PCV through the U pipes rather than cold start tube
- Series 038 CPR, with one attendant vacuum hose
- No spark advance cutoff solenoid (uses ported vacuum)
- 2 centrifugal advance counterweights (single weight may have been a
DeLo only mod because even B28F uses 10 degrees BTDC as its base spec)
- No provision for Lambda whatsoever
- Aux air valve and brass screws (non shear head) in lieu of CIS
Renault further deviated with hard steel fuel lines and an aluminum
fuel distributor. As Louie noted, my car's original owner dropped one
of these into #5939. At some point an idle speed motor was grafted on
with only moderate success (without an idle speed microswith --
nowhere to attach one -- the system was hard wired active all the
time. It also lacked a thermal sensor in the coolant distribution
pipe). I jetisoned CIS soon after buying the car because it stopped
working reliably.

And as Louie noted, this engine suddenly developed a Valdez oil leak.
Fascinatingly, another owner at Pigeon Forge suffered an identical
failure IN EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE (passenger side casting spar for #3
main bearing). What are the odds of that? You haven't lived until you
have a hole in your upper oil galley. Transforms the vehicle into a
rolling environmental catastrophe.

BTW: I still have my Z7V safely stored indoors. It's a very nice
performing engine and I hope to someday patch the hole and find
another DeLo to drop it into. Don't miss maintenance around that silly
K Jetronic manifold one bit however.

My current block has a Peugeot ID tag but is basically a Volvo B28A.
With the exception of the lower crankcase casting, everything below
the heads should be identical to a DeLo block (8.5:1 compression).
Heads are also identical except that they were never drilled for fuel
injectors (flat spots are cast into them at those locations). Only
real difference is the intake manifold and of course fuel metering
device. B28A used a scary looking carb canted 45 degrees. My engine
came with an industrial LP carb. I made a custom adapter plate to
mount a Motorcraft 2150 (word to the wise: use a 2100 instead. PRV
does not like unvaporized fuel from the late model "high speed
circuit"). Pics have been uploaded to #5939's photo album. Adapter
plate is attached with bolts that pass through the manifold from below
-- Volvo design. Note that the manifold is turned around 180 degrees
from Volvo's orientation to locate a vacuum barb in the rear. I tapped
a plug in the other vacuum port to help hold the throttle cable
bracket. More of those pesky little problems that pop up during a
repower...

Quick point of order: gasoline (and LP for that matter) engines do not
care whether fuel is metered by a carburetor or by fuel injectors.
With a suitable manifold you can carburete anything. Ignition could
then become a problem (computer controlled cars), but fuel/air
delivery will work just fine. This of course means that a stock DeLo
is easily converted to carburetion. Heresy to say so, but it's the truth. 

Problem with my current engine's motor mount bosses are twofold:
- located in the center of the lower engine casting
- shallower angle than DeLo
Since less than a week remained before Pigeon Forge when I discovered
this (they sure looked the same at a glance), quick decision was made
to rig up some crossmember extensions and use the lower casting
already in place. In theory this was a temporary solution. In practice
I'm still driving around on them. Somehow suspect they'll become a
permanent, albeit bolted on, part of the car. These extension are
clearly visible in the pic of my mufflers in #5939's photo album.
They're made of extremely high carbon railroad steel so I'm not
worried about the veneer of surface rust. Note that the motor mounts
themselves are different too (had to use them to match the boss
angles). Combined effect of crossmember extensions and bigger motor
mounts is to raise the rear of my engine 1/2" or so above a stock DeLo
PRV.

If it makes anyone feel better, I'm using the stock 5 speed
transmission without modification. Bolted right up to my new engine no
problem (on the floor -- ask me sometime about bolting up a fine
spline input shaft while the engine is still in the car...)

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Louie" <louie_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I thought I'd take this time to clear the air some about Bill 
> Robertson's car and the engines it has had. I hear people talk all 
> of the time about the "crazy" things Bill does to his engine. 
> 
> First of all his DeLorean came with a replacement Renault PRV 
> installed. His car's original DeLorean PRV melted down sometime in 
> the mid '80s, and at that time it was replaced with a Renault 2.7 
> Liter PRV rated at 145hp. He didn't do this to his car, that's the 
> way it came. Though at first glance his engine looked original, it 
> in fact had no Lambda and was altogether a different engine.
> 
> Second he didn't carburete his PRV. He bought a crate carbureted 
> Pugeot engine off ebay that he installed in his car. His original 
> plan was to buy a new DeLorean without an engine and transplant it 
> into that. But his Renault PRV developed a Valdeze-esque oil leak 
> and so Bill decided to just go ahead and use that engine on his 
> current DeLorean. He didn't hack apart a stock DeLorean engine and 
> shove in a carbureter, he implanted into his DeLorean a PRV that was 
> DESIGNED and ENGINEERED to be carbureted. The only changes Bill made 
> to this engine was to replace the original engine's single barrel 
> carb with a double barrel. This engine was actually different enough 
> from the stock DeLorean's that he had to fabricate new motor mounts.
> 
> All I'm asking is before you judge Bill have your facts straight 
> first. He does think out of the box and I think that's a good thing. 
> People complain all of the time about lack of performance options, 
> and lack of variety of places to buy parts for their cars, yet they 
> denounce people like Bill, VideoBob, and John Hervey. But it's these 
> people who question the status quo that will bring more options to 
> the DeLorean table. Even though occasionally guys like these will 
> fall on their faces with something they try, but their thinking 
> outside of the box benefits us all. I guess all I'm asking for is a 
> little more respect for our fellow owners, and to have your facts 
> straight before you criticize one another. We really should all be 
> allies in this DeLorean thing.
> 
> Louie Golden
> VIN 5252 Charlotte, NC








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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:50:11 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Manual trans drain plug



Has anyone ever heli-coiled the drain plug on a manual trans? Any 
idea what size it is? Last time I change my gear oil I noticed that 
it was starting to strip, and over time it's started leaking a 
little. Changing to synthetic gear oil has made it leak more. 

Dave S








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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:40:13 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: "French" PRV



Actually the PRV used by DeLorean is basically Volvo B28F, chosen
specifically because it was already certified for US emissions. To the
best of my knowledge French renditions were never imported into this
country on a production basis.

F Series has several North American only modifications over European
spec PRV's:
- Lower compression (8.5:1)
- Lambda (~1% reduction in CO)
- Faster warming up CPR (final counterpressure is identical however)
- Smog pump
DeLorean futher modified its engines as follows (probably because of
lack of smog pump) :
- Removed a centrifugal advance counter weight and advanced base
ignition time 3 more degrees
- Used full manifold vacuum for spark advance, routed through an idle
cutoff solenoid
DeLorean CIS ECU is also set for 750 RPM versus 900 RPM Volvo spec

Note that a DeLorean tuned to European specs will probably melt the
catalytic converter if left in place. 

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "secret_jedi_guy"
<secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> The PRV is FRENCH.  The FRENCH haven't 
> produced U.S. emmissions legal vehicles in 25 years.  That is before 
> the DeLorean was built and I have all of the previous owner's 
> service records that show how much of a pain it was to get it to 
> pass it's smog check this year.  In dumping the PRV, I can get 
> something AMERICAN that I can do most of the work on myself.
> 










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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 03:24:23 -0000
From: "turbodmc3113" <turbodmc_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Fall Tour Urgent Hotel News!!!





Last chance room reservations at the $159.00 rate.

Many of you have run into problems with the hotel reservations for 
the Fall Tour.
The last chance to get the $159 rate will be no later than Monday 
Oct. 10th subject to availability. I have worked things out with the 
hotel and if they quoted you a higher price please call them back 
immediately and you should get the adjusted rate YOU MUST DO THIS NO 
LATER THAN MONDAY!

The phone number for the Harrison Conference center is 516 671-6400 

The group rate is under "Fall Tour 5" 

I apologies for any inconvenience to all parties affected by this but 
I assure you it will be
worth it once we are there!

I will spare you all the contractual details of  what transpired but 
it should be ok now
E-mail me or call me at 516 676-9198  if you are still having 
problems.

For people who think they may be coming to the Fall tour for one or 
both days I still need to hear from you, I can waive the late 
registration fee if I know you are planning to come and you contact 
me. E-mail me at falltour5_at_dml_hotmail.ccom  that's falltour5(at)
hotmail.com 

If you want to see photos got to www.falltour.itgo.com  
For registration forms and more info go to the club web page 
http://www.deloreanmidatlantic.com/events/falltour5.htm 

5th Annual DeLorean Fall Foliage Tour Itinerary
 

October 16th & 17th 2004

The Long Island Gold Coast Tour, live the dream!


Saturday   
                             11:15am to 1:00pm

The first meeting point is at the Sands Point Preserve and Museum.
Parking fee is $2.00 (but may be waived?) admission to The Atoms 
Family exhibit is $4.00 (optional).
Sands Point Preserve 95 Middleneck Road, Sands Point, New York 11050  
(516) 571-7900
http://www.sandspointpreserve.org 

1:00pm
We line up for the caravan
Have your two-way FM radios on the DMC 12 channel 

1:30pm to 2:45pm
Arrive at Nassau County Art Museum Roslyn Harbor
145 Acres of Art, Gardens & Sculpture
One Museum Drive, Roslyn Harbor, NY 11576
Parking is free, Café Musee offers lunch and beverages but does
not 
accept credit cards!
CURRENT EXHIBITION: The W.P.A. Era: Art Across America admission is 
$6.00 optional.
http://www.nassaumuseum.com 

2:45pm
Caravan to Hotel

Arrive at hotel (approximately) 3:00pm
Note: official check in time is 4:00 , explore the hotel grounds and 
facilities if you cant check in.
                   
                                                                  
5:30-6:45 pm
Dinner at Marra's (Glen Cove)
Family style Italian Buffet $25*paid in advance

6:45pm
Stone Cold Creamery (ice cream)
Starbucks, Liquor Store Etc.
Just steps away from Marra's
Back to the Pub and grounds at the Harrison conference center 
until ?????????????

Note: We adding things to this event, this Itinerary is subject to 
revision 
          and change. Remember to check for updates prior to the tour!

Sunday

Guests of the Harrison conference Center get a complimentary 
breakfast in the dining room (see hotel for serving time)

We will be doing a morning photo shoot of the cars at the hotel
(Time to be determined)


Check out and departure 11:00-11:30 am


Caravan to Road Rally start point (Crescent Beach about 1 mile)
Get ready for an awesome Road Rally!
This will include a stop at the 
Welwyn Preserve 
This also has the Holocaust memorial and education center on the 
grounds if you wish to take time to visit it.



The Road Rally finishes in Bayville at the Walls Warf restaurant
at 2:30 pm

3:00 Lunch/Dinner
This will be a fabulous dinner!
Choice of 3 entrees and dessert
Views of Long Island sound and Connecticut 
Don't miss this $25

Links:

Registration form 
http://www.deloreanmidatlantic.com/events/Falltour5/regform.pdf  

Mid Atlantic Club Info Fall Tour 
http://www.deloreanmidatlantic.com/events/falltour5.htm

For additional Images http://www.falltour.itgo.com/photo2.html

E-mail falltour5_at_dml_hotmail.com 














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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 04:06:55 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Chevy Engine swap



I hope you didn't take my advice the wrong way. I never said not to do
the conversion. I was only trying to point out some of the pitfalls in
undertaking such a large project. I did not mention emissions,
handling, weight transfer, fuel consumption, range, increasing cooling
system capacity, managing for adequate clearances for serviceability,
strenghtening the frame for the motor mounts, and countless other
things that should be considered BEFORE you go down this road. All to
often people start a project like this and never finish or finish it
"half-assed" because they did not consider all of the ramifacations.
By posting to this list you have asked for people's opinions so in
that light I offer mine. I can only hope that you are successful, and
document fully what you have done for yours and other's benifit in the
future. I recomend you keep a log of what you do, the problems you
faced, and how you overcame them. A detailed parts list will come in
handy if you ever need to replace some item and you can't remember
what it was and where you got it. For budgeting purposes take your
initial estimates and double them so you will not run out of the funds
required to complete this. Same goes for time, 2X, or more is how long
it will take. Since you are not doing this work yourself, you say you
will have a mechanic do it, it is also going to cost you a significant
amount of labor. Most people that will attempt these kinds of projects
try to save some of the labor (money) by doing it themselves. A
project like this can only be done on a hourly rate basis, it is just
too hard to estimate how many hours it will take so labor is going to
be your biggest unknown.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



-- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "at88mph" <at88mph_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> 
> I think Darkstar nailed it.  I'd like to add some more comments to my
> earlier post.  I didn't do the engine/tranny swap looking to sell
the car.
> Truth be told, I'll probably NEVER sell the car.  It was my first
car at 15









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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 03:50:53 -0000
From: "checksix3" <jetjock11_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Straight skinny on fuel accumulators




I'm not going to get into this argument but it's obvious neither of 
you are engineers. For the sake of the less informed here both of you 
should stick to what you know and that obviously isn't elastomerics.

I'm continually amazed at the massive amounts of misinformation 
offered up on this list by supposedly knowledgeable people. They may 
know the car but when they try to go beyond the mechanic stage they 
don't fare very well. From what I've seen there are only a few (very 
few) here who're able to do it and then only in specific disciplines. 
The rest always end up spouting nonsense, to the detriment of those 
seeking the truth.










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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 02:17:33 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Dignity



Well, the moderator was right. It was a post that managed to hit all 
points possible, to ruffle everyones' feathers. :) But, I am going to 
keep this in a positive light, and on the subject topic.

You're absolutely right about the PRV. It's reliable, and can be made 
so with time and effort. And I'm going to back you that statement, 
and the fact that it is indeed underpowered. But let me present to 
you another point of view. One from a fellow DeLorean owner, whom 
like yourself, I too am planning for an engine swap down the road.

The PRV is quite a unique engine in many ways. It has it's unique 
quirks, combined with an unconventional fuel injection system, with 
an emissions control device strapped onto it as an afterthought, and 
you've got quite a challenge ahead of you. And that is the problem. 
As you've already said, you had to have a mechanic do a bit of work 
on your car, and naturally, you have concerns about what is going to 
pop-up and hit you in the future. A quite valid concern.

However, I am going to reccomend that you not proceed with an engine 
swap with your car. Based upon what you've written, I don't think 
that you're ready yet for that challenge. If you cannot replace a 
series of heater hoses on your own, there is no way you're gonna be 
able to swap an entire motor out. I'm not saying this as a slam 
against you. But you really need more time under the hood (or bonnet, 
or engine cover, depending on your definition :p) before you attempt 
any radical modifications, let alone fabrications. Yeah, I know that 
you've got a willing mechanic to help you out. And that's fine, but 
only to a point. You have got to build up the self confidence, and 
have some decent skills in your arsenal. And you've got to go in with 
the attitude that you alone must complete this job, with minimal 
outsourcing of labor for things you can't complete, because you lack 
the TOOLS, and not the ABILITY to complete. Such as fabrication, etc. 
You absolutely must become more self-reliant in car repair, before 
you attempt

Now, don't take this post the wrong way. My intent here is not to 
discourage you, but rather to encourage you. Get more working 
experience with engines in, before you try anything of this 
magnitude. Rise to the challenge of working on your motor first.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"
Intercooled twin turbo V8...Someday.








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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:27:05 -0700
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_comcast.net>
Subject: RE: DeLorean Dignity


I have dealt with California emissions and if you do it properly and
tailpipe emissions are good you can go to a referee and they will give you a
barcode that smog stations will use instead of your vin.  it will not exempt
you from testing but "rubber stamp" your conversion.  shoot me an e-mail off
list and I can give you some pointers on how to deal with them. I have done
a LT-1 in a Cherokee with out much problems.

Darkstar

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Shepherd [mailto:chrisau79_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: October 9, 2004 3:50 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] DeLorean Dignity




> Hey....go for it. My only caution is that if you live in CA do your
> emissions law research first. I got my twin turbo because the owner found
> that even though the car met all the emissions standards CA wouldn't license
> it because he had "altered the approved exhaust system". No, I don't live in
> CA.
>
> Chris

[very long quote trimmed by moderator]





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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:43:54 -0400
From: "Tom Watkins" <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>
Subject: Rear Axle


I was told yesterday during a yearly vehicle inspection that my drive axle boots are torn on one side.  I was told that the CV joint has some movement that would indicate some wear.   I couldn't find a "kit" for the parts in the CV joint as replacements but there was a great articule in last months GULLWING magazine about cleaning and re-booting them.

If there is some undesirable movement in the CV joint. not normal in and out but laterally, is it advisable to simply take it out and clean the dirt etc...re-pack and re-boot?  A new shaft is approx $600.   Any thoughts?

Thanks

Tom Watkins
dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net
Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:26:16 -0700
From: <maple80_at_dml_devaddict.com>
Subject: New member here


Hope to get to know you all. I will try to contribute to the discussion with my thoughts, knowledge, and opinions.





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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:34:14 -0500
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Dignity


[Moderator Note: Perhaps this post is a bit off topic and politically charged, but I found it interesting and approved it because it contains technical information some subscribers will enjoy reading.  Please do not consider this an invitation to begin a political or ecological debate on the DML.  - DML moderator Mike Substelny]


"The FRENCH haven't produced U. S. emissions legal vehicles in 25 
years."  Is a meaningless slam again french auto manufacturers. 
 Remember when US car makers said emission controls would kill the V8 
and performance?  Well, they lied.  Have you ever emission tested a 
French car verses a US car?  I have.

There  is a major disconnect between science and US vehicle emission laws.  

The main reason there are such strict vehicle emission laws in the US is 
because they are designed to mis direct the publics attention away from 
the real pollution problems.

Vehicle emissions are not the major source of pollution that affects 
peoples health.  Coal fired power plants and oil refineries are the 
major sources of emissions in this country AND THE WORLD.  

This opinion is based on scientific fact.  The latest research verifying 
this fact occurred last fall during the power outage on the east coast. 
 During that time, since the coal fired power plants were shut down, 
 sulfur dioxide levels dropped 90% and ozone levels dropped 50%.

What?  Ozone levels dropped 50%.?  Wait,  hasn't the government 
justified emission controls on cars to control Ozone?  
Yes, scientists have known for years that emissions from power plants 
are the major single source of ozone precursors - not cars.

That is why EUROPE  has had sulfur dioxide emission controls one their 
coal fire power plants for over 30 years now.   Don't ever hear about 
ozone air pollution's problems in western Europe do you?  Is Europe 
magically immune for photo chemical oxidant reactions in the atmosphere? 
 Or do they just control the real major sources  AND NOT OVER REGULATE 
AND MIS DIRECT THE PUBLIC ATTENTION AWAY FROM REAL POLLUTION PROBLEMS.

CA just took a step backward in this area and eliminated the 25 year 
rolling exemption for emission testing.    They are going to spent 
millions of dollars on testing cars that represent 0.1% of the vehicle 
population.  California automobile emissions have dropped 99.% in total 
tons in the last 30 years, but ozone level have only dropped 50%.  Of 
course, they have done nothing about power plants and oil refineries. 
 They also have the highest gasoline prices in the country, but they are 
the third largest producer of oil?

It is a shame that some CA DeLorean owner could not get his cars 
approved because of a non stock turbo and exhaust.  It really had 
nothing to do with emissions, just stupid laws to harass the public so 
they don't have the time to be creative or to think about real social 
issues.

I have been in charge of emission testing of over 100,000 vehicles, 
exhaust system changes -as long as you have a catalytic converter- make 
no difference.  My opinions are based in fact and not disinformation.


BOB









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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:05:55 -0000
From: "Dani B" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Dignity



I really haven't been following the engine swap threads because I knew
problems were likely to rise. It is the same with any car mailing list
or forums you subscribe to; they nearly butchered a guy for making a
custom 1950 Buick on my other forum...I feel that stock is good for
some cars, but I too really am not one who cares for this engine...In
fact, I'm likely do a swap in the near future to an 8 as well. I'm not
worried about value (because I will never sell the car) and I'm not
worried about what anyone else has to say about it.  AND, it will just
set my DeLorean apart from anyone else's. It's always possible to
convert it back and is free provided you keep your old engine and etc.
How can anyone really be upset with an engine swap? Everyone was
interested in a interior package to replace their stock interior, the
only difference with an engine is you can't really see it! Everyone
should have their own opinion and be able to express it, but it
doesn't make anyone wrong in what they're doing. It's YOUR cars-do
what you feel with them! Just what I think anyway- Dani B. #5003


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "secret_jedi_guy"
<secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> [Moderator Note: Obviously this post will insult hundreds of people
on the DML.  Please keep in mind that this anonymous person is simply
expressing an opinion.  On the DML we do allow our subscribers to
express opinions, and past experience has shown that no hot-tempered
response or witty retort will change his/her mind.  -Mike Substelny
DML moderator of the week]
> 
> Look I didn't mean to "offend the faith of the purists."  When I
got 
> the car I knew exactly what I was getting.  What I didn't expect
was 
> about $389 for a shop job to replace six heater hoses.  The problem 
> was the ENGINE and the LOCATION of the hoses, he also said that any 
> other fixes would cost the same or more because of the awkward 
> design.  In asking for info about an engine swap, I was not looking 
> for a slugfest about how I will devalue the car, and how I must not 
> have known what kind of car it was, or what I was getting.  I am
not 
> planning on selling it.  The PRV is FRENCH.  The FRENCH haven't 
> produced U.S. emmissions legal vehicles in 25 years.  That is
before 
> the DeLorean was built and I have all of the previous owner's 
> service records that show how much of a pain it was to get it to 
> pass it's smog check this year.  In dumping the PRV, I can get 
> something AMERICAN that I can do most of the work on myself.
> 
> On another note, someone said that I should just spend $2000
dollars 
> on an old Camaro to run into the ground and "spare the DeLorean its 
> dignity."  The fact is the DeLorean looks like a Lotus and has less 
> power than a VW Bug.  A car like that has NO dignity.  Now if you 
> really want to say I know nothing about the car you are mistaken.  
> It was intended to be a sports car to compete with the Corvette.  
> You can look that up.  They went with the PRV because the cost went 
> up to produce them and yes the PRV was a reliable powerplant at the 
> time.  Granted, with time, effort and money I could keep my current 
> PRV and have it be a reliable powerplant for another 100,000 miles 
> or I could swap it for a more powerful, emissions legal, American 
> engine and make the car what it WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.  You should
also 
> remember that this car would be NOTHING to ANYBODY except the very 
> first enthusiasts if Back to the Future was never made.  It would 
> just be another piece of failed automotive history, and even in
Back 
> to the Future they swapped the engine in 3 cars for a small block
V8 
> in order to get an engine growl underneath the added jet sound.
> 
> In answer to another question of whether my other mechanic friend 
> would stay with me till the end.  Yes, he was the one who was going 
> to help me perform the swap because has done it before with no 
> problems.  I thought about turbos, but the fact is I would be stuck 
> with the PRV and a twin turbo taking up space in there making it 
> that much harder to work on.
> 
> Don't tell me I'm "bastardizing" it by changing the engine.  I am 
> just taking an incomplete concept car and finishing it.
> 
> VIN: 1223








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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: jordan rubin <nuttenschleuder_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Delorean rear view camera


Hello,


As some of you know, I have been working on a project
which has one or more miniature cameras mounted on the
Delorean which goes to an LCD display up front.

After installing it in the mustang for testing, it
finally went into the delorean today.  Not installed,
mearly placed in and ran off of the lighter.

I have provided any photos of this for you to view.

http://retroserver.no-ip.com/gallery/camera/index.html

Thanx

Jordan 11613





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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:12:59 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Delorean rear view camera



Great idea - I am very interested in this. Having owned a D for over 
23 years, every time I back out of a parking place, especially in a 
somewhat busy parking lot, I still get scared. Yesterday was a 
perfect example. Fortunately the fellow behind me realized I 
couldn't see him and backed away from me (over my left shoulder and 
out of mirror view too). When I finally did see him I almost died on 
the spot.

I hope you will continue to share the development with the group.

Harold McElraft - 3354



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, jordan rubin <nuttenschleuder_at_dml_y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> As some of you know, I have been working on a project
> which has one or more miniature cameras mounted on the
> Delorean which goes to an LCD display up front.
> 
> After installing it in the mustang for testing, it
> finally went into the delorean today.  Not installed,
> mearly placed in and ran off of the lighter.
> 
> I have provided any photos of this for you to view.
> 
> http://retroserver.no-ip.com/gallery/camera/index.html
> 
> Thanx
> 
> Jordan 11613








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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:15:45 -0000
From: "James" <james_at_dml_usadmc.com>
Subject: Seeking the truth (and nameless postings and fuel accumulators)



For someone who wasn't going to get into the argument, you managed to
insert yourself in it. :-)

This nameless poster paints with a very wide brush. I said nothing
about elastomerics, and wouldn't try to do so - I wrote about the
sales experience of accumulators at DMC (Texas) something I know more
about than perhaps all but one or two other people in the world. Oh,
and I also mentioned a conversation with my Bosch rep.

Other than that I agree with your thoughts. I think they could have
been posed in a more constructive manner, but someone who isn't
willing to sign his/her name to their writings doesn't have to think
about things like that. And that's a shame because I think you have
had some valid points in the past that may have been discounted
because you post anonymously. If you are one of the ones "seeking the
truth", why not come clean with your true identity?

Note to moderators: Can we *please* put an end to the nameless posts?
I mean, I don't agree with everything Marc Levy or John Hervey or some
others say, but at least they are willing to put their name with their
words. That should count for something.

Note to other DML'ers: If you feel the same as I do about nameless
postings, PLEASE let the moderators (and me) know as well - email the
moderators - moderators(at)dmcnews.com - and me -
james(at)delorean.com - thank you.

Here's my name...

James Espey
DeLorean Motor Company (Texas)
15023 Eddie Drive
Humble, Texas 77396 USA
http://www.delorean.com

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "person unwilling to put his name in
his postings" wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm not going to get into this argument but it's obvious neither of 
> you are engineers. For the sake of the less informed here both of you 
> should stick to what you know and that obviously isn't elastomerics.
> 
> I'm continually amazed at the massive amounts of misinformation 
> offered up on this list by supposedly knowledgeable people. They may 
> know the car but when they try to go beyond the mechanic stage they 
> don't fare very well. From what I've seen there are only a few (very 
> few) here who're able to do it and then only in specific disciplines. 
> The rest always end up spouting nonsense, to the detriment of those 
> seeking the truth.








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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:18:59 -0400
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Axle


On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 08:43:54AM -0400, Tom Watkins wrote:
 
> If there is some undesirable movement in the CV joint. not normal in and out but laterally, is it advisable to simply take it out and clean the dirt etc...re-pack and re-boot?  A new shaft is approx $600.   Any thoughts?

Can't speak to the specifics, but having rebuilt my CV joints, I'd
recommend doing likewise. I've no idea how much work-on-car experience
you have, but it's a relatively simple project (if messy). Can easily be
done in a weekend if the internals are ok; can be done in few hours, 
really. If some parts do have wear, you should be able to tell pretty 
easily (which, of course, means waiting for the new parts to come in).

--noah
#2867

-- 
<huey> dd of=/dev/fd0 if=/dev/flippy bs=1024
<huey> ^^^ Making Flippy Floppy






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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:33:16 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Manual trans drain plug



It is a pipe thread which means it tapers so it gets tighter as you
screw into it. Try a new drain plug with a magnet and wrap it with
teflon tape. If that doesn't work you wil have to find a metric pipe
thread insert, I am sure that someone makes it, I have never seen it.
You "could" use an english thread insert, those I have seen. It would
mean using an english plug and remembering to NEVER mix up the drain
and level plugs. It is rare for that to leak. Inspect it closely for a
crack, that is more likely.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever heli-coiled the drain plug on a manual trans? Any 
> idea what size it is? Last time I change my gear oil I noticed that 
> it was starting to strip, and over time it's started leaking a 
> little. Changing to synthetic gear oil has made it leak more. 
> 
> Dave S








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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:37:37 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Dignity



To add further, Classic Car related information to this, there is one 
more thing that should be noted. Refineries, and powerplants can earn 
what are called "Smog Credits", that allow them to further pollute. 
And this comes from the destruction of Classic Cars. What happens is 
they buy a older car from you (between $400-$700 according to CA 
DMV), they take the HC, CO, NOX, sulfur, etc. emissions limits that 
are listed for a late model car's smog check, NOT the actual recorded 
tail pipe emissions, and issue the credit to a polluting factory. 
Their reasoning is that since they have taken the polluting vehicle 
off the road (it has to be destroyed), then the assumed emissions 
that said car would have *created*, are then then allowed to be 
expelled from a factory. These smog credits allow businesses to avoid 
EPA fines when then exceed maindated emissions limits, because they 
have "credits" to spend to avoid such heavy fines. In fact, they 
allow said bussiness to actually pollute more. This definetly 
pertains to DeLoreans, because they are now eligable for this program.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/avrp/avrpfaq.htm

Things like this apply to ALL classic car owners. Since CARB 
(California Air Resource Board) sets such tight restrictions on 
emissions, the Federal Govt., and other states will simply adopt 
their regulations, to save money on individual research. So things 
like this typicly affect us all, regardless of state, and in many 
cases, regardless of science.

Another thing is that I know allot you folks in Cali are looking 
forward to is your 30 year smog exemption. And guess what, you 
probably won't get it!

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/9511040.htm?
1c

When reading this article, please take note that "experts" that are 
claiming increased asthma cases in the state are not citing the case 
studies that actually place the blame on agricuture in the San 
Joaquin Valley, where these increased cases have been discovered. 
Antiquated diesel water pumps, and the fact that cattle in the San 
Joaquin Valley now out number registered motor vehicles are the cause 
of air pollution. Cattle alone cause high methane emissions, dust, 
and nasty runoff waste. And anytime the initiatives have been on the 
agenda for the stricter pollution controls, or penaties are scheduled 
to be levied, allot of aggies have been able to dodge them, with 
their influence.

Now, like I say, I too am trying to keep this a non-political as 
possible (trust me, I could go far more into this). But, when you 
enter into the classic car hobby, you've got to be prepared for allot 
of things that are threatening your hobby, and the freedom of 
expression that it entails. "Car Culture" involves anyone who has the 
slightest amount of passion about their vehicles.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:16:33 -0400
From: "Tom Watkins" <dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net>
Subject: BTTF Engine Swap comments


I doubt very much that they swapped out the engines just to get the added jet sound.  As a film producer let me explain that just about EVERY sound you hear that are not the actors voices are added in later in post-production.  (footsteps, clock ticking, doors creaking, gunshots, engines running etc...) The DeLorean engine sound in the movie is created by a sound engineer and put in.  They did not put in a V8 just to get the engine growl.  They may have swapped out the engine for other reasons but it is inaccuracte to suggest the sound dept relied on a swapped engine for their effects.    I have worked with dozens of sound guys and they take lots of pride in the fact thay they create their sounds with like an artist.     

Wrote:
and even in Back to the Future they swapped the engine in 3 cars for a small block V8 
in order to get an engine growl underneath the added jet sound.



Tom Watkins
dmctom_at_dml_earthlink.net
Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:21:09 -0700
From: "darryl" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>
Subject: Re: Lockzilla or WingsAloft???


Tom, please don't think I was knocking the Zilla products - even I wouldn't do that.  His stuff is bulletproof if a little pricey.  And actuators versus solenoids should be a no-brainer.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Detroit and all of the other major manufacturers switched from solenoids to actuators for door locks many years ago for reasons of cost and reliability.  In the case of DeLorean door openers (and locks) the weight and current draw differences are additional major factors in that choice.

The whole point of my earlier statement was availability.  Only one door opener system is readily available, and has been market proven for over 15 years.

And I presume the line "If you want a door opener system now, by all means contact Toby." was not directed at me, since obviously I've been using that system already for, oh, about 17 years.  So, yes I am a little biased.

Now Robert, your statement is a little disturbing: "Aside from function, use of specificly branded products helps to further one's pride in one's own vehicle."  That sounds like an advertiser's dream - pay more for Nike because they spend millions on advertising, whether or not it's a better product.  I'm having trouble with that one.  Some of us just don't buy into that logic.  Maybe I am getting old, but I just don't think that way - I use what works best, regardless of "name branding"  But I have to agree, when I heard folks talking about all the Zilla products they had installed, my thoughts were more toward the power of advertising and image than "that's what it takes to keep these cars functioning".  They are great products if you really do need them.  But they aren't a requirement - I had 7 cars over an 18 year period without once needing any of them.

The bottom line is we should all thank our lucky stars for the choices we have as owners of an orphan car, and for the continued work of folks like Toby, Bob Z., Rob, Don, Stephen, and the rest.  It could easily have been a lot worse.
Darryl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:41:07 -0400
From: Todd Nelson <tan5732_at_dml_rit.edu>
Subject: PRV Engine Information


Hey,

  Does anyone know of a reliable source to get information on the stock PRV engine used in the DeLorean?  Either in text or online.

Thanks,
Todd


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:57:06 -0000
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Fuse 5 keeps blowing, idle speed motor not vibrating...



After my starter took a dump last month, I installed an Autolite
starter built for an Eagle Premier, and it works beautifully.  Much
smaller, easier to install, and it makes a way cooler sound when it's
cranking :)  Best part, it only cost me $120.  

Whilst I was still trying to make the old starter work, one of the
times that I was cranking it, I suddenly heard a very rapid *CLICK
CLICK CLICK CLICK* coming from underneath the dash, and just at that
moment my #5 fuse blew.  Since replacing the starter, my #5 fuse keeps
blowing every time I turn the key to the ON position, and my idle
speed motor no longer vibrates.  Could these things be related?  I
notice that there's a LUCAS relay under the dash, could this be the
problem?  I have yet to check the voltage at the idle speed motor plug.

Interestingly, if I turn the key to the ON position, then replace the
#5 fuse, my dash instruments will work fine, but if I turn the key
off, and then back on, the fuse will then blow.  

thanks,

Matt
#1604









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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:05:29 -0700
From: "darryl" <darryl_at_dml_techline.com>
Subject: Re: Chevy Engine swap


As builder and driver of one of the best known Chevy-powered DeLoreans, I guess it's time I weigh in on this subject.  I bought a vandalized engine-less car in 1990 and decided because of my street rodding background it would be the ideal test bed for some of the ideas I had been considering.  I did a bolt-in transplant of a supercharged Chevy 4.3 V6 which I have now driven for some 9 years with very few problems (other than those caused by my right foot).  Even though I built my own transmission adapter, motor mounts, headers, etc. the job was pretty straightforward, and is totally reversible (although I can't imagine anyone doing that).  The weight difference is nominal and change in handling unnoticeable.  The performance on the other hand is a huge improvement.  [footnote to Marc - when you drove the car the timing was severly advanced.  I had used the wrong timing marks the last time I worked on it.]

Why consider an engine transplant?  In my case it was obvious, but think about the complaints that are most often cited here:  hot start/cold start, fuel accumulator failure, fuel injection system problems, water pump failure, leaking head gaskets and expensive rebuilds, etc.  With a domestic motor most of these go away, and if you do need a water pump, for example, it is much easier to find and less expensive.  Would I ever consider changing my car back to PRV power?  No way.  Did I ruin the value of the car?  Considering that it's worth about twice my total investment I don't think so.

With that said, do I recommend you transplant a different motor?  No.  That may sound surprising, but here are my reasons.  Simply put, I don't think most owners have the skills to do it right, and to pay a shop to do it would cost too much.  But mostly, I think the car should be kept original - quirks, lack of power, high maintenance costs and all.  There are just too few of them to be replacing the engines, or chopping them up into hovercrafts, 4X4s, etc.  Just my opinion - it's every owner's right to do with them as they please.

If you really want a re-powered DeLorean, why not just buy mine and save yours as an original?  While I don't really need to sell it, and there is certainly nothing wrong with it, my interests have moved to other areas and it just sits most of the time.  It's way too nice of a car for that - as I have always said, these cars need to be driven, not stored.  Check the pictures in the last Gullwing magazine and contact me privately if interested.

Darryl T.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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