From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2279
Date: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:57 AM


There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Changing oil question
From: "Richard" <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>

2. Re: Auto to Manual!!!
From: "Richard" <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>

3. Re: DMC Logo
From: Peter Lucas <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>

4. RE: Trailing Arm Bolt Removal
From: "Nick Kemp" <nkemp_at_dml_bwig.net>

5. Re: Changing oil question
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com

6. Re: Trailing Arm Bolt Removal
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com

7. RE: Re: Rough Idle
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

8. RE: Changing oil question
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

9. Re: Trademarks, and DMCH
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>

10. Re: Auto to Manual!!!
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com

11. RE: Re: AC compressor whining
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>





Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:34:26 -0000
From: "Richard" <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Changing oil question



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "secret_jedi_guy"
<secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
 I can't figure out how to get the 
> plug out of the oil pan.  It looks like it just has a square hole 
> where you put in a ratched with no socket and unscrew it that way, 
> but everything I've tried is either too small or too big.  It looks 
> like the same plug on the transmission fluid pan but it is hard to 
> see.  Is there a special tool to get the plug out?
> 
> Thanks for the help
> 
> Japheth VIN: 1223

You can make the tool yourself quite easily and cheaply.  Go to your
local hardware store and ask for a piece of 5/16" square key-stock. It
comes in 2ft lengths or something like that which is way more than you
need, but it's so inexpensive anyway.  Put a 90 degree bend about 1/2
to 3/4" from one end and cut off the excess.  It's easier to heat it
with a torch first.  You now have a square "allen key" which will fit
perfectly into that drain plug.  Use the remainder of the key-stock to
make more of these for your other DeLorean friends.  

Richard Rowe
VIN 5853 








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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:41:50 -0000
From: "Richard" <dmc_driver_at_dml_yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Auto to Manual!!!



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Rydholm" <ebondefender_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I would change it if I were you. I heard that the little computer 
> modules in the Auto trans DeLoreans give out after about 40K miles or 
> so..


There are fixes available from the vendors for the shift computer. 
Apparently,it's easy to fix and once the flaws are corrected, an
automatic DeLorean shifts as good as any modern automatic car out
there, so I've been told.

Richard Rowe
VIN 5853









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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:55:18 -0400
From: Peter Lucas <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>
Subject: Re: DMC Logo


I'm *still* not taking sides, but since the list has decided to invest 
this much attention on this topic, it is probably worth doing our 
collective best to get the facts right for the record.  Several 
otherwise interesting posts have contained statements that I believe to 
be inaccurate [I feel like factcheck.org  :-) ].   I am not trying to 
nitpick, but as I will point out, the mistakes are directly relevant to 
our topic:

On Oct 15, 2004, at 10:31 AM, John Hicks wrote:

>  To copyright a document,
> you merely add "Copyright yyyy by (your name, organization etc...)

This was true before 1978, but as I said in a previous post, current 
law grants copyright automatically upon creation with or without a 
copyright notice.  You can read about this here:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc

This is relevant to the present discussion, since (at least on my copy) 
the DeLorean Workshop Manuals don't seem to carry copyright statements.

> and your material is protected for 99 years.

Not nearly that simple.  As I said, it depends on when the work was 
created as well as whether the author is an individual or a corporation 
(among other things).    Details may be found here:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hlc

> Copyrights are non-
> renewable.  Laws against plagerism protect copyrighted materials
> from being "re-written" and re-copyrighted.

I have never heard of a law against plagiarism.  This is not a legal 
concept, it is a moral/ethical one. It refers to using someone else's 
ideas without proper credit.  Read about it here:

http://www.bobbyelliott.com/plagiarism.htm#illegal

This, too, is more than just hairsplitting:  It would be perfectly 
legal for someone on this list to take the DeLorean workshop manuals 
(or any other book), rewrite them in their own words, redraw the 
illustrations, and publish the resulting book as a new publication with 
a fresh and perfectly valid copyright. You just can't use the same 
words as the original. It would be polite to cite the original source, 
but not legally required.  Again:  copyright protects the *expression* 
of ideas, not the ideas themselves.

> Logos require a "Registered" Trademark issued by the US Patent and
> Trademark Office (www.uspto.com).

This statement, too, is incorrect.  You get trademark protection by 
*using* a mark, not by registering it.  It is just much easier to 
defend if it is registered.

Here's what the Trademark Office has to say about it:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmfaq.htm#Basic001

Looking up registrations at the Trademark Office is relevant, but 
doesn't in itself prove anything.  As people keep emphasizing, it is 
litigation that decides intellectual property disputes. Period.

[Please note that I don't mean to pick on John:  most of his message 
was useful and informative. His comments on the realities of actually 
facing the prospect of defending your own work was especially 
important.  You get a whole new perspective when your kid's college 
education depends on being able to defend your intellectual property.]

While I am offending people, here's one more nit:

On Oct 15, 2004, at 2:04 PM, Marc Levy wrote:

>  It is
> difficult if not impossible to enforce a trademark
> registration when the logo use predates the
> registration.

This isn't correct.  As documented above, registration isn't required 
at all, much less prior to use.  Indeed, proof of prior use is 
necessary for a full registration.  It is true that if somebody *else* 
is actively using a mark at the time you attempt to register, you will 
likely not succeed.


--Pete Lucas
   VIN #06703






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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:58:27 -0500
From: "Nick Kemp" <nkemp_at_dml_bwig.net>
Subject: RE: Trailing Arm Bolt Removal


Dave,

I had the very same problem years ago and never did get the bolt out.  I
ended up writing an article for DW about it.

The bigger concern is that if you were to torque the nut on that trailing
arm, you could be perfectly torqued and still be loose at the frame end of
the bolt.  A dangerous situation.

I still hold by my original recommendation to grease the trailing arm bolts
to prevent corrosion.

Nick Kemp








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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:14:34 -0000
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com
Subject: Re: Changing oil question



Japheth - The square is about 5/16", which is in between the standard 
square drives for most ratchets.  Some people make a tool from a 
larger allen wrench by grinding one end square to the proper 
dimensions.  Others actually have the correct tool to use for this.  
I personally (many years ago) took a 7/16" diameter bolt, cut all but 
about 1/2" of the shank off, and then used a file to make the remains 
of the shank square.  I just slip this "tool" into the plug, and use 
a box-end wrench to turn it.  You can do whatever works best for you, 
but that is the scoop.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248 "Winged1"
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.delorean-parts.com


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "secret_jedi_guy" 
<secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> I'm trying to change the oil, but I can't figure out how to get the 
> plug out of the oil pan.  It looks like it just has a square hole 
> where you put in a ratchet with no socket and unscrew it that way, 
> but everything I've tried is either too small or too big.  It looks 
> like the same plug on the transmission fluid pan but it is hard to 
> see.  Is there a special tool to get the plug out?









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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:05:46 -0000
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com
Subject: Re: Trailing Arm Bolt Removal



Hello List - I wanted to make two comments on this thread, so please 
bear with me.  When I decided to commission the first batch of TOBY-
TAB's, somebody put together a poll on this very list to find out 
what the "fleet experience" was with the trailing arm bolts.  In 
round figures, one third of those responding had found bent, 
corroded, or broken TAB's at some point; one third had looked and 
found nothing amiss, but said that they were continuing to inspect 
these joints (this is a good thing, regardless of what type of bolt 
you have); and one third had no idea what we were talking about, and 
didn'y really care.  As I said back then, it's the one third that 
didn't (and still doesn't) have a clue that *really* bothers me.

The second comment is in response to Joe's note - I just thought that 
I would point out that there should be no rotation of the bolt in the 
trailing arm when everything is torqued up.  This is a very common 
misconception of the function of this joint.  All rotation in this 
joint should be in the rubber part of the rubber bushing, with all of 
the individual components in the stack-up stationary relative to one 
another.  There is a tendency in the fleet to find the sleeve in the 
rubber bushing disbonded from the rubber, which then allows the 
rotation to occur between the sleeve and the rubber.  However, the 
design was originally supposed to have all rotation in the rubber 
only.  I just wanted to clarify this point, because this illustrates, 
in part, why there should be weight on the suspension before final 
torqueing of the bolts ... to set the rubber bushing in the rest 
position prior to locking it down through the joint clamp-up.  The 
anti-seize compound is crucial for protecting the steel trailing arm 
and sleeve from further corrosion inside.  However, since the TOBY-
TAB's are made from Inconel, they are impervious to corrosion.  
Okay ... I am done with my lecture for today, although I can very 
easily get wound up about that last one third of the fleet.

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248 "Winged1"
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.delorean-parts.com

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Kuchan" <josephkuchan_at_dml_h...> 
wrote:
> A new trailing arm went in along with Toby TABS with a thin coating 
of antiseize on the smooth part of the bolt that needs to pivot 
inside the trailing arm.









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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:21:49 -0500
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Rough Idle


Shannon, & John
Tune up will be in order if they haven't been done. If you could take the
plugs out and read them, that would give you a good indication if a cylinder
is running rich or lean. I would also replace the 02 sensor before adjusting
the fuel mixture screw if you haven't already. That would take out the
seeking at idle. Also, rough idle could be caused by a leaky injector and
fast idle by a vacuum leak.
John Hervey
www.specialtauto.com



-----Original Message-----
From: John Rydholm [mailto:ebondefender_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:16 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Rough Idle





I have a very similar problem to yours, Shannon. My car usually does
~900-950 idle and has been fluctuating back and forth a bit like it
wants to stall. I have also had times when I step on the gas, and it
accelerated much slower than normal even in 1st. I tried putting fuel
injector cleaner in my tank, and now I'm going to try replacing all 6
sparkplugs with Bosch-platinums. I REALLY hope it's not my fuel pump,
as I have a faint whine behind the dash/hood area. (Of course I
suppose that's an excuse for a Tankzilla or something- if only I
could afford that.)

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "birdwell77095" <birdwells_at_dml_u...>
wrote:
>
>
> My car normally idles at about 900 RPM. In the last couple of days
it
> will drop slightly then rev back up. When I press the accelerator
the
> engine will rev up roughly for about a second before smoothing out.
> Could this be a slight leak in a vacuum hose? This started a day
> after I refueled. Could it be bad gasoline?
>
> Shannon








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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:23:37 -0500
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Changing oil question


I have the standard oil drain plugs that don't require the special wrench.
If you want to use a tool to change them out then I will loan it also.
John Hervey
www.specialtauto.com




-----Original Message-----
From: secret_jedi_guy [mailto:secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:26 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Changing oil question





Don't worry about the spark plugs I got them all done myself.  It
just took some work to get at the ones on the left side.  Well now
I'm trying to change the oil, but I can't figure out how to get the
plug out of the oil pan.  It looks like it just has a square hole
where you put in a ratched with no socket and unscrew it that way,
but everything I've tried is either too small or too big.  It looks
like the same plug on the transmission fluid pan but it is hard to
see.  Is there a special tool to get the plug out?

Thanks for the help

Japheth VIN: 1223








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moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:25:48 -0000
From: "gullwingmagazine" <gullwingmagazine_at_dml_juno.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarks, and DMCH



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_y...> wrote:
 
> With all that said, each time this topic comes up I
> again think about why it even matters..  

Marc, your correct, it doesnt matter.  Unless you personally have 
plans to use the trademark and hire legal counsel, there is no end to 
this debate.

> The same conclusion every time, it boils down to greed on the
> part of DMCH.  

DMCH is in business to make money, and if Stephen Wynnw is worth a 
darn as a businessman, he is in business to make as much as he can 
without alienating his market.  If you don't like a vendor making 
money, don't buy from them.  

> Greed in not such an awful thing, but as with all of the other     
> faults I have discussed over
> the years with the way DMCH (and other "vendors")
> conduct themselves, It is my opinion that they take it
> too far..  

Then step up to the plate and start your own DeLorean business.  I'm 
sure you will find it is no cake-walk.  Sounds like your not pleased 
with any of the vendors.

As for me, I will continue to patronize every vendor as I have in the 
past.  Every one of them has given me great advice and service as 
well as supplying me parts and accessories at a fair price.  I've 
even used the DMC logo on some custom parts I've made and Stephen 
Wynne thought they were great!  These people are not hard to work 
with!

Ron










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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:25:56 -0000
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com
Subject: Re: Auto to Manual!!!



Thomas - Not to rain on your parade, but there are some differences 
between the car structures for the automatics and the manuals.  These 
differences include some bracketry, and some penetrations that exist 
in one, but not the other.  For instance, I am not sure if the 
penetrations and attachment holes for the clutch master cylinder 
exist on the cars originally built as automatics.  There are also 
some significant differences in the wiring, and even the cooling 
system.  In short, it's a much bigger ($$$$$$) job than merely 
swapping some "bits" over.  This is not to say that it cannot be 
done - however, "you must be prepared to go the distance" is all that 
I'm saying.   

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248 "Winged1"
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.delorean-parts.com

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Thomas Mc Auley <dmc4087_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> Hello! I am thinking of swopping my automatic for a manual, and I 
want to use De Lorean bits etc. The linkage for a manual seems to 
cost too much from www.delorean.com, so I was wondering if anyone was 
thinking of swapping their manual to an auto, and we could swap parts.
>  
> Thanks,
> Thomas,
> Vin 4087
> Belfast









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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:45:22 -0500
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: AC compressor whining


Ryan, All vendors my be over $250.00 but since by the recent definition by
James Epsey of what a proper vendor is, then I'm a Delorean parts supplier.
I sell the new compressor for $219.95 with a new clutch or and if you want
just the clutch it's $59.95.
John Hervey
www.specialtauto.com
Delorean parts supplier.






-----Original Message-----
From: ryanpwright [mailto:dmcnews_list_at_dml_ryanwright.com]
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:00 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: AC compressor whining





Thank you for your replies.

> belt. Spray some WD-40 into the bearing (it isn't easy). If the
> noise goes away now then you have confirmed the bearing is bad.

How difficult is "isn't easy"? I've been spraying the wd40 between the
pulley and the compressor. Any chance I'm hitting the bearing?

Bill: Thanks for the info on the compressors. I did not know they
could be found so cheaply. The last compressor I bought (for my Fiero)
was $400, and compressors from the vendors are all over $250. For
$100, I agree with you - might as well replace the whole thing.

You said "transfer your current back" - what's that mean? Are you
talking about the pulley? How difficult is that to do?

Thank you,

-Ryan


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...> wrote:
>
>
> Replacing the 2 idler pulley bearings is not a difficult job. Just
> make sure to note the orientation of all the brackets, bolts, washers,
> and cover. You really have to put it back together EXACTLY as it comes
> apart. They should be replaced anyway, they are probably 20 years old.
> If you still have the noise and the belt is good then you can assume
> the A/C bearing is bad. To confirm I use a squirt bottle with water.
> Spray it on the belt, if the noise goes away you have a bad pulley or
> belt. Spray some WD-40 into the bearing (it isn't easy). If the noise
> goes away now then you have confirmed the bearing is bad.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
>
>
> -- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "ryanpwright" <dmcnews_list_at_dml_r...> wrote:
> >
> > How difficult is this to replace?
> >
> > Any thoughts on how to find out whether it's this clutch bearing or
> > the idler pulley? Not that I mind replacing both, but if I can
> > identify which one it is somehow, that would be nice.
> >
> >








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