From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2305
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:18 AM


There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Ebay SCAM!! DMC Owners BEWARE
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>

2. Re: Timing Gear Cover Leaking...Backfiring?
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

3. Re: Okay, It Was A Bad Idea....
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

4. Re: Timing Gear Cover Leaking...Backfiring?
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

5. Re: Front wheel caster/camber
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

6. Dash and rear lights
From: "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_hotmail.com>

7. Wiring Diagram Question
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

8. Re: Low-vin door problem
From: "thebrave65" <johnnysher1_at_dml_cox.net>

9. Re: Front wheel caster/camber
From: "painterdave72" <painterdave72_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. RE: Okay, It Was A Bad Idea....
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

11. Overtemp monitor / "dummy light"?
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>

12. Re: Front wheel caster/camber
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

13. Smoking Manifolds
From: motarhedd_at_dml_aol.com

14. Re: Front wheel caster/camber
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

15. Re: Timing Gear Cover Leaking...Backfiring?
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

16. Re: Front wheel caster/camber
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

17. Re: Dash and rear lights
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

18. Re: Overtemp monitor / "dummy light"?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>





Message: 1
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:03:41 -0000
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>
Subject: Re: Ebay SCAM!! DMC Owners BEWARE


Everyone remember our previous discussion about someone owning the DMC
logo? Here's an instance where it's a good idea.

-Ryan

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "James" <james_at_dml_u...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Interesting that they have the DMC logo on them. We've also contacted
> Ebay as this isn't the first we've heard of them. Anyone else who has
> 





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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:15:32 -0000
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Timing Gear Cover Leaking...Backfiring?


Now THIS is an interesting point.  So in other words, the ignition
timing of the DeLorean CANNOT be set by aligning the crankshaft pulley
marks and stabbing the distributor alone, because it might be on the
incorrect stroke.  

So the ONLY way to make sure it's ALWAYS right is to not only align
the pulley marks, but ALSO verify that you are on the correct stroke;
either by inserting something into the spark plug hole, or placing
your finger over it and waiting to feel "pressure." 

I wish this information would have been more forthcoming a few months
ago when I still had the engine out of the car.  Looks like I'll be
pulling the intake manifold again :(


thanks,

Matt
#1604
 
--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> An alternate way of seeing if the #1 cylinder is at TDC is by sticking
> a long flexable wire down to the piston and turning the crank until
> you see from the wire that the piston is at TDC (That is, all the way
> at the top of the cylinder). If you pull the next plug in the firing
> order and use the wire there after #1 TDC and the next cylinder goes
> to TDC, then you have the correct stroke. If you do it and the next
> cylinder isn't at the top then its the wrong stroke. You've got to go
> by the timing marks, if you line the pully up with the mark and its
> the incorrect stroke- crank the engine around until it hits the marks
> again and try. Once it is at TDC you set up your distributor. -Dani B.
> #5003
> 





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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:46:14 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Okay, It Was A Bad Idea....



Get yourself a portable jump-starting battery pack. You can run your
sterio off it and use it to jump your car. You might want to also have
the battery checked and the alternator. If the battery is over 5 years
old it should be replaced. At least you still had a good time!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "LJScarlet2" <ljscarlet2_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I posted earlier about driving my Delorean in the Greenwich Village 
> Halloween Parade.  While the parade was a hoot and we all had a good 
> time, driving the car was a disaster.
> 
> I used an inverter to hook up my stereo to the original cigarette 
> lighter.  There wasn't enough time to attach the replacement--I 
> needed to look good myself first :)  Anyway, we drove down to the 
> parade and turned on the stereo.  It wasn't loud, but it was 









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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:28:04 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Timing Gear Cover Leaking...Backfiring?



PRV has a nifty way of locating TDC cylinder 1:

Are 2 plugs on top of the engine. One farthest from the "front"
(closest to the flywheel) is used to locate #1 TDC. Rotate the engine
to within 20 degrees of TDC via the timing scale. Remove that plug and
insert a foot long 5/16" (8mm) drill bit through the hole. Bit will
rest on #3 or #6 counterweight -- can't remember which -- into which
an 8mm indexing hole was drilled at Douvrin. Rotate the the engine
until the bit drops into the indexing hole. Engine is now at absolute
TDC #1. Be sure to adjust your timing scale accordingly.

This is a factory procedure BTW.

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> An alternate way of seeing if the #1 cylinder is at TDC is by sticking
> a long flexable wire down to the piston and turning the crank until
> you see from the wire that the piston is at TDC (That is, all the way
> at the top of the cylinder). If you pull the next plug in the firing
> order and use the wire there after #1 TDC and the next cylinder goes
> to TDC, then you have the correct stroke. If you do it and the next
> cylinder isn't at the top then its the wrong stroke. You've got to go
> by the timing marks, if you line the pully up with the mark and its
> the incorrect stroke- crank the engine around until it hits the marks
> again and try. Once it is at TDC you set up your distributor. -Dani B.
> #5003
> 









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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:56:17 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Front wheel caster/camber



Without getting into what castor and camber is, it doesn't matter. It
cannot be adjusted on a Delorean. It CAN be checked and if it is not
right something is bent, broken, missing. Was your car lowered? If it
was that will affect these things. Get the car to an alignment shop
and have them first inspect the front suspension for anything bent or
a bad ball joint or bushing. It is not uncommon for the lower control
arms to get bent from a tow truck operator who pulls on them or uses
them to hold down a car. If you front end frame (AKA the crumple zone)
was installed wrong that can cause bad tire wear. In the Workshop
Manual there is a diagrham with measurements so you can check the frame.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm sure this has been hit around the list in the past-But my front
> wheels are chambered out so much that my tires are already killed not
> even 10K of life-the outside tread is bald now. What to check out? My
> front end frame including shock towers is BRAND NEW! can my ball
> joints or shocks/springs have any influence on this? Also it seems any
> time I make a turn from a dead stop with the steering all the way to
> lock (either right or left-doesnt matter which), I feel a sort of
> quick jump or pop come from the front end. I don't believe it is
> happening from the sway bar. The books I have don't seem to touch on
> this very well. What kind of things should I be checking out? Thanks
> guys! Dani B. #5003








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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:53:23 -0500
From: "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Dash and rear lights


All my dash lights and right rear lights (from head light) went out since my
last drive.  The brake, left rear and front light seem to be working fine.
Rear circuit boards were replaced some months ago with Grady's new boards
and new bulbs.  All was working great until this past trip out last
Wednesday.

Any common issues to look at here?

Ed
10541





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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:57:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Stankiewicz <protodelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Wiring Diagram Question


Anybody know what the label should be for part 190 on
the wiring diagram?  My copy of the diagram shows
"190", but no description.  I see the device in the
upper right hand corner of the diagram, but was
wondering if anyone knows what it is.

Thanks,

=====
Steve

VIN 2650 ("Project Delorean")
www.projectdelorean.com


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 






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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:21:33 -0000
From: "thebrave65" <johnnysher1_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: Low-vin door problem



Also, keep in mind, that the early cars such as this one had the 
doors stamped from a "soft" die, (the material was a softer metal).  
The result were ill-fitting doors.  There is a 7xx VIN in our local 
club (AZ-D) that has doors which just don't quite fit properly.

Johnny
5518

> 
> 
> If the door is hitting someplace even after you have removed the 
pins
> you have a problem. Try closing the door holding a piece of stiff
> paper and try to find the point that it is hitting on. When you 
close
> the door without the pins it should close smoothly and straight down
> with nothing forcing it foward or back. Maybe a screw is sticking 
out
> under the weatherstripping seals or a pop rivit is not flat. Maybe
> soemthing is caught at the top of the door by the hinges underneath.
> It is strange that it should be temperature related. Check that the
> strut is not "bottomong out". There are some struts that seem to 
force
> the anchors when the door gets closed and eventually it ruins the
> lower mount. Take the strut off the door and close it slowly, see if
> it closes better all the way without it.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757

> > > > Raphael, France








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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:50:05 -0000
From: "painterdave72" <painterdave72_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Front wheel caster/camber



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm sure this has been hit around the list in the past-But my front
> wheels are chambered out so much that my tires are already killed not
> even 10K of life-the outside tread is bald now. What to check out? My
> front end frame including shock towers is BRAND NEW! can my ball
> joints or shocks/springs have any influence on this? Also it seems any
> time I make a turn from a dead stop with the steering all the way to
> lock (either right or left-doesnt matter which), I feel a sort of
> quick jump or pop come from the front end. I don't believe it is
> happening from the sway bar. The books I have don't seem to touch on
> this very well. What kind of things should I be checking out? Thanks
> guys! Dani B. #5003


Hey Dani u should take ur wheels off and check the large nut in the middle of 
the spindle to make sure it is completly torqued down... other than that i dont 
know what would make the tires out of adjustment that way since there is no 
adjustment for that on the Delorean.. Dave vin 15275...








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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:03:26 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Okay, It Was A Bad Idea....


ah, nothing more embarrasing than being seen broken down in a DeLorean.
So cliche'.
I am in the works to turn my D into a full blown time machine, this will add 
tons of little lights
all over the car and electronics....

I recently bought a full Knight Rider conversion car, and the people who 
built it did something
really cool, they put in two batterys except one is on an isolation 
transformer that has all the
electronics hooked up to it.
Both batteries will charge when the car is running, but only one battery 
will run down
from the electronics, this way the car will always start even if the other 
battery is dead.
I thought this was fantastic so i am going to put a second battery behind 
the drivers
seat with one of these isolation transformers so that I can run all my time 
machine junk
and never worry about being able to start the car up!

Also, the OPTIMA batteries are what you wanty to use, they are what all the 
low rider guys
use in thier boom box cars.

- Videobob
VIN#5278


>From: "LJScarlet2" <ljscarlet2_at_dml_yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Okay, It Was A Bad Idea....
>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:09:48 -0000
>
>
>
>
>I posted earlier about driving my Delorean in the Greenwich Village
>Halloween Parade.  While the parade was a hoot and we all had a good
>time, driving the car was a disaster.
>
>I used an inverter to hook up my stereo to the original cigarette
>lighter.  There wasn't enough time to attach the replacement--I
>needed to look good myself first :)  Anyway, we drove down to the
>parade and turned on the stereo.  It wasn't loud, but it was
>working.  Now, 2 hours go by and we are still on line to enter the
>parade, with the car running but not moving and all the lights and
>music going.
>
>We finally get started and drive about 5 or so blocks (you'd be
>amazed how long that took with me trying not to hit marchers).  Then,
>I noticed the volts dropping. 





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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:19:52 -0000
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>
Subject: Overtemp monitor / "dummy light"?



Folks,

Has anyone added a high temp "dummy light" to their cars, or could
someone provide me with information on doing so?

With winter fast approaching, I have been making daily use of my (1.25
mile range) remote start and letting the car warm up for 10 to 15
minutes before heading out to the parking lot. I start it from my
office and can neither see nor hear the car, only knowing it's been
started due to the confirmation on the keyfob. As it gets colder
outside, I expect I'll run the car unattended for even longer.

Overheating is a big concern. The car will idle until it runs out of
gas without overheating, but if the fans were to die, or the water
pump, or one of the belts were to break, or a hose, or any number of
other cooling system components, I'd come back out to a real problem.
Anything from a destroyed engine to a car on fire.

Therefore, I need a basic circuit that energizes a relay if the
temperature gets to about the midpoint on the gauge (well before any
damage could occur). I can wire this to an input on my starting system
that would kill the ignition and alert my pager. If the car had a
dummy light I'd just tap into that, but it doesn't, and I don't know
how to add one.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

-Ryan








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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 01:01:29 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Front wheel caster/camber



Do you have readings from an alignment machine? You really shouldn't 
estimate these settings. The only real adjustment is the toe which 
will, if the toe-in is too much, cause the tires to wear on the 
outside as you describe. Adjustments for the other measurements are 
possible but are for the folks who have access to the right gear or 
shops.

Harold McElraft - 3354

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm sure this has been hit around the list in the past-But my front
> wheels are chambered out so much that my tires are already killed 
not
> even 10K of life-the outside tread is bald now. What to check out? 
My
> front end frame including shock towers is BRAND NEW! can my ball
> joints or shocks/springs have any influence on this? Also it seems 
any
> time I make a turn from a dead stop with the steering all the way 
to
> lock (either right or left-doesnt matter which), I feel a sort of
> quick jump or pop come from the front end. I don't believe it is
> happening from the sway bar. The books I have don't seem to touch 
on
> this very well. What kind of things should I be checking out? 
Thanks
> guys! Dani B. #5003








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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:55:07 -0500
From: motarhedd_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Smoking Manifolds


Hey all,

  i've been working on replacing the manifold gaskets on the car for the last week now, seems like one big problem after another. first the passenger side had a stripped stud, and a broken stud. got the stripped stud out with a brand new pair of vise-grips, then the hole was stripped out after the effort. tapped new threads and engineered a bracket to use the other holes in the block. 

  So now the the new stainless steel gaskets are on and the manifold to crossover pipe has a "paper?" gasket. Both sides now smoke, lots of smoke, like they are burning something, it doesnt smell like exhaust or grease.
i wonder if i should have put some permatex on either of the gaskets? or are the manifolds burning the greasy residue off of them?

thanks,
Russell Nicoulin
Vin#1790





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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:13:01 -0600
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: Front wheel caster/camber


There is no front end alignment on DMC other than toe-in. Which means that
either your toe-in is out of adjustment or all the new front end stuff was
not installed properly. It's very critical to get it welded on correctly
since there is no adjustment afterwards. How was the new front end installed
and aligned? This is not a casual project for "a guy with a welder" but
something that needs quite a bit of precision.

Keep in mind that in this suspension design the lower control arms are held
in location by the sway bar, in other words its not just a sway bar but also
a trailing arm. If the sway bar is bent or any of the bushings are worn, bad
things happen.

Dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 12:04 PM
Subject: Front wheel caster/camber



I'm sure this has been hit around the list in the past-But my front
wheels are chambered out so much that my tires are already killed not
even 10K of life-the outside tread is bald now. What to check out? My
front end frame including shock towers is BRAND NEW! can my ball
joints or shocks/springs have any influence on this? Also it seems any
time I make a turn from a dead stop with the steering all the way to
lock (either right or left-doesnt matter which), I feel a sort of
quick jump or pop come from the front end. I don't believe it is
happening from the sway bar. The books I have don't seem to touch on
this very well. What kind of things should I be checking out? Thanks
guys! Dani B. #5003









________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:08:55 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Timing Gear Cover Leaking...Backfiring?



Not particular to the PRV... All 4 cycle engines push their pistons to
the top of the cylinders twice -- once on the compression stroke and
once on the exhaust stroke.

Why don't you simply watch the valve train as you turn the engine.
When both #1 valves are closed (timing marks aligned), piston is
~CLOSE to TDC on the compression stroke.

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> 
> Now THIS is an interesting point.  So in other words, the ignition
> timing of the DeLorean CANNOT be set by aligning the crankshaft pulley
> marks and stabbing the distributor alone, because it might be on the
> incorrect stroke.  
> 
> So the ONLY way to make sure it's ALWAYS right is to not only align
> the pulley marks, but ALSO verify that you are on the correct stroke;
> either by inserting something into the spark plug hole, or placing
> your finger over it and waiting to feel "pressure." 
> 
> I wish this information would have been more forthcoming a few months
> ago when I still had the engine out of the car.  Looks like I'll be
> pulling the intake manifold again :(
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Matt
> #1604
>  









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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:16:06 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Front wheel caster/camber



You know what-This car was transported all the way from NC to NY and I
remember these were used (as the tow loops on the frame were broken
off in the front) to hold the car to the flat bed. I am positive the
front end work was done correctly. My mission is to check out the sway
bar, ball joints and see how much the lower arms move tomorrow.
Suspension hasn't been lowered. So also- bad shocks too would cause
tire wear as well? -Dani B. #5003

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Without getting into what castor and camber is, it doesn't matter. It
> cannot be adjusted on a Delorean. It CAN be checked and if it is not
> right something is bent, broken, missing. Was your car lowered? If it
> was that will affect these things. Get the car to an alignment shop
> and have them first inspect the front suspension for anything bent or
> a bad ball joint or bushing. It is not uncommon for the lower control
> arms to get bent from a tow truck operator who pulls on them or uses
> them to hold down a car. If you front end frame (AKA the crumple zone)
> was installed wrong that can cause bad tire wear. In the Workshop
> Manual there is a diagrham with measurements so you can check the frame.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I'm sure this has been hit around the list in the past-But my front
> > wheels are chambered out so much that my tires are already killed not
> > even 10K of life-the outside tread is bald now. What to check out? My
> > front end frame including shock towers is BRAND NEW! can my ball
> > joints or shocks/springs have any influence on this? Also it seems any
> > time I make a turn from a dead stop with the steering all the way to
> > lock (either right or left-doesnt matter which), I feel a sort of
> > quick jump or pop come from the front end. I don't believe it is
> > happening from the sway bar. The books I have don't seem to touch on
> > this very well. What kind of things should I be checking out? Thanks
> > guys! Dani B. #5003








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:17:33 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Dash and rear lights



Start with the headlight switch. The plug could have come loose or the
switch may be bad. 
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Ed Garbade" <edgarbade_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> 
> All my dash lights and right rear lights (from head light) went out
since my
> last drive.  The brake, left rear and front light seem to be working
fine.
> Rear circuit boards were replaced some months ago with Grady's new
boards
> and new bulbs.  All was working great until this past trip out last
> Wednesday.
> 
> Any common issues to look at here?
> 
> Ed
> 10541








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:24:08 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Overtemp monitor / "dummy light"?


Yes, monitoring the engine is a big problem with a remote starter. If
it is a 5-speed and you left it in gear you will surprise the
neighbors!!!!!! You also should worry about oil pressure. I would
install a neutral switch if possible and an engine monitor which could
shut the engine down if the oil pressure got low or the temp got high.
You also need an interlock so it cannot be activated if the engine is
already running so you don't damage the starter or flywheel. In some
areas there are laws against idling a motor more than a few minutes.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
>> 
> With winter fast approaching, I have been making daily use of my (1.25
> mile range) remote start and letting the car warm up for 10 to 15
> minutes before heading out to the parking lot. I start it from my
> office and can neither see nor hear the car, only knowing it's been
> started due to the confirmation on the keyfob. As it gets colder
> outside, I expect I'll run the car unattended for even longer.
> 
> Overheating is a big concern. The car will idle until it runs out of
> gas without overheating, but if the fans were to die, or the water
> pump, or one of the belts were to break, or a hose, or any number of
> other cooling system components, I'd come back out to a real problem.
> Anything from a destroyed engine to a car on fire.
> 
> Therefore, I need a basic circuit that energizes a relay if the
> temperature gets to about the midpoint on the gauge (well before any
> damage could occur). 





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