From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2335
Date: Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:14 PM


There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: Judging at DeLo Shows
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

2. Re: Concours Read this final solution (dunking booth)
From: Josh Haldeman <jhaldeman_at_dml_fuse.net>

3. Speaking of Concours - Odd Part available
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

4. OEM qwas 1700 vin numbers
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

5. Re: Happy Thanksgiving-And I Know What I'm Thankful For!
From: Josh Haldeman <jhaldeman_at_dml_fuse.net>

6. A Probably Stupid Question
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. RE: Re: Stuttering clutch
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

8. Re: 17000 Vins
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

9. Re: Polished number plate surround
From: "jamesrguk" <James_rg_at_dml_hotmail.com>

10. We need a group hug!
From: mroboto_at_dml_aol.com

11. Re: Tom's 17168 and Concours 2000 ( was Re: 17000 Vins)
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

12. AW: 17000 Vins
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>

13. Thanksgiving
From: chrisau79_at_dml_yahoo.com

14. Re: Judging at DeLo Shows
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>

15. Re: A Probably Stupid Question
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:08:06 EST
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Judging at DeLo Shows


In a message dated 11/24/04 8:38:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net writes:

> <<<I am aggitating for *BOTH* judged and non-judged display at future
> DCS's, with equitable concern for both classes of owners. For example,
> even if #5335 isn't ready for the rigors of competition at this point
> of its restoration, wouldn't you want to be included in the show in
> some other capacity rather than relegated to parking with the general
> public?>>>>>
> 



I can not agree with you more.

Any car that paid to be registered in the show was welcome to park inside the 
building and display with other cars.

The only requirements as Posted for OVER A YEAR on the web page and explained 
at the show is that you have 1/4 tank of gas or less as required by fire 
marshal law and that it not leak.

No car is relegated to parking with the general public.  At PF they did not 
mark off outside parking for us like they should have (due to a little extra 
comotion the day before) but if you read and followed the instructions you were 
quite able to park inside and be the center of the show.  I wanted more cars 
inside but people chose to park outside or forgot and filled up with gas.  We 
should have had 100 cars inside instead we had 68 I believe.

As you noted there was a lot of room left open that should have been cars.

This was the first time we did an inside show and things were different and 
we will learn from it but overall it will work which is what I wanted.

Also at all other DCS shows the cars all have been together so I do not 
understand if you meant previous shows since all cars have been together at the 
previous shows 
On the fountain display at Cincinnati
On the dock pier in Cleveland (Great areal shot)
On Gracelands parking lot (Great areal shot) 

WE WANT THE CARS TOGETHER

So lets make it clear for Pheasant run
 
To be in a building and to meet fire code you must 

A) have a 1/4 tank or less of gas 
B) have the gas cap taped (we will supply the tape if you  don't)
C) Not have any leaks and if you do have something to catch it ( you are 
responsible for carpet you damage.
Pheasant run is carpeted.

So now all the confusion can be avioded since the DML is host to 90% or so of 
all attendees.    

Cars that don't will park out the side with access to the convention center 
so you will be able to walk in and out easier than you did at PF.

Hope this clarifies that point because I cannot agree more that the cars 
should be shown in mass and that did not happen because of the confinements of the 
convention center and not following the rules. 

People wanted to be indoors and we tried it and it does work.  That was a 
great show and there was more information, vendors, exchange of ideas and twice 
the speakers of any other show we have sponsored.

For those of you that remember we had only four speakers in Cincinnati.

We have grown.

I think we could come close to 550 for Pheasant Run and if everyone just 
brings one person that did not come to the last show we could be over 600 so its 
up to you.
Chicago will be bigger and better than ever.

Thanks for the support


Ken


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:18:47 -0500
From: Josh Haldeman <jhaldeman_at_dml_fuse.net>
Subject: Re: Concours Read this final solution (dunking booth)


I would like to nominate myself...not for the dunking booth...but I'd 
like to crash into it with my DeLorean if at all possible.

Thank you,
Josh


kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

>
>Anyone else I should add and why.
>I think this covers all sides of all issues
>LOL
>

>Ken
>
>  
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:52:17 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Speaking of Concours - Odd Part available



As I'm going over #2466, I noticed that it still has the original 
long-style plywood deck boards the cover the fuse compartment and 
lambda compartment. Rather than cut these down as was done in the 
later cars (it is VERY difficult to remove them for service access 
this way) I figured I'd offer them to anyone who may need them for a 
concours-correct car. They are in perfect condition. I have another 
set of already-cut ones that I'll use, since this is never going to 
be a concours car due to other wear and tear I'd rather have the 
easier access to the compartments. 

If anyone is interested in these let me know off-list. 

Dave S 
swingle(AT)dmcnews.com








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:22:26 EST
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: OEM qwas 1700 vin numbers


In a message dated 11/24/04 8:41:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net writes:

> What you spend on a car to win a concours bears no relation to the
> absolute value of the car. It is possible to spend $3,000,000 on a car
> and the car is "only" worth $2,000,000 at auction. BTW I am just
> guessing but the $3,000,000 probably didn't include purchesing,
> 

We have one thing that I think is unique in the DeLorean 
and that is that we still have almost 100% available OEM parts and the 
concours cars are judged on original parts.  The aftermarket parts for the most part 
are deducted for except for the door struts and a few other minor parts that 
are similar and are saftey issues.

I looked at a Mustang show that boasted the quality of the Mustang ( I am a 
mustang lover too we have three of them) and the cars that won had aftermarket 
parts that were better than originals  they were nice but not original.  the 
above highly coveted Pebble Beach concours is a great event but the cars are 
made to be like original not original.  Big difference here and I think the 
vendors will keep us looking at original for a long time to come.

I think the DeLorean community does a great job on keeping enough original 
parts around 
even if the vendors run out of a part there are always parts avail from 
owners

Anyone need a light grey passenger side carpet.  (see my point)

Ken


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:40:07 -0500
From: Josh Haldeman <jhaldeman_at_dml_fuse.net>
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving-And I Know What I'm Thankful For!


Wow...thanks Mike!

I'm thankful that Mike gave me the opportunity to try doing this job!  I 
had tons of fun...and know what REALLY goes into this project now.  
Mike's a great guy, and has a ton of patience.  I also need to thank the 
people that helped us get the car apart in one weekend, and back 
together in three months...Mike Luckey, Rich Acuti, Greg Crews, Brian 
Pollard, Dom Diaz, Ken, Eric and Kenny Koncelik, John Hervey, Dave 
Bauerle, David Haldeman, (better known as Pops) and if I left anyone 
out, forgive me and know that it's only because it's almost midnight, 
and I've been up for too long sniffing paint fumes and working on fascias.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!

-Josh



Michael & Denise wrote:

>I wanted to extend a holiday greeting to all of the subscribers to the list and express my sincere gratitude to Josh Haldeman for his efforts in assisting me with my DeLorean.  Josh not only engineered the replacement of the frame for my car but he also went and picked it up after I purchased it on eBay and virtually single-handedly saved this vehicle from the parts pile.  I drove it back to Virginia from Cincinnati 2 weeks ago and it truly is like having a new car.  I hope I can someday make a difference with a car like Josh has with mine but I don't know if I'll ever achieve that level of expertise!  I hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable Thanksgiving and I know that Josh will be at the top of my list of people whom I am thankful to have met!
>Mike
>(no longer with a rusted out frame thanks to Josh!)
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>  
>






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:47:28 -0000
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: A Probably Stupid Question





Gentlemen,
  I have a question: why in this age of super cars, and our age group 
spending big bucks for the machines of their youths: Why didn' the 
DMC come back? Is John Delorean dead or something? We see the streets 
crawling with super cars, and he had a design that 20 years ago beat 
them all, why doesn't he sense it? Why doesn't he "do it again"? From 
what I understand of history the big "Auto Makers" ganged up on him, 
and shut him down. Why doesn't he take them on again? I think we 
deserve what his vision has to offer.








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:24:53 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Stuttering clutch


>From your description it appears that your problem is related to "clutch
chatter". This condition is a result of grease, oil or foreign matter on the
clutch rotating surfaces. Common causes in the DeLorean are a leaky clutch
slave cylinder or leaking input shaft seal. Worn (glazed) clutch facings can
also cause clutch chatter. 

DMC Joe

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Travis Goodwin <tgoodwin_at_dml_v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I've got a problem with my clutch.
> 
> When I shift into gear and release the clutch, I get a hard
vibration that
> shakes the car. If I shift and let the RPMs wind down and then
release, it's
> ok. It also works ok if I give it extra RPMs and release very slowly.
> 
> You think my clutch fork is bent or maybe I have a hard spot on the
clutch
> disk? Any thoughts?






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:54:40 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: 17000 Vins



I would suspect that a "glued on" vin plate was done not by the
"factory" but by some other entity after the demise of DMC. DMC was
the only entity with the authority to create vin plates. The were also
charged (as all manufacurers are) with the responsability to try to
prevent fraud. This includes a means of MECHANICALLY SECURING vin
plates. BTW that is also one of the reasons for the "check digit" in
the vin #. Most manufacuterers use a propriatery mechanical fastner to
prevent the casual swapping of vin plates. As an example Chrysler Corp
uses a "rosette" type pop rivit. Not easily avaiable but sometimes you
can find a vender that comes across a batch and then is offered for
sale at an exhorbitant price. Sometimes they are stolen by an
enterprising employee to sell. My guess is that the Deloreans that
were finished by Kapac are the only ones that would have a glued on
vin plate because they were playing games with the vin plates to try
to make as many cars as they could out of the remaining vin plates and
parts inventory. You can't pop rivit the vin plate on once the
windshield is installed so they didn't want to take the windshield  or
the dash out to put the plate on. I don't know how they ever got away
with not tying the vin # to the engine. It was Federal Law since 1969
that the engine and the trans was supposed to have some part of the
vin on each. I guess they only held the Domestic manufacurers to that
rule.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> 
> I'm really curious about the 'glued' on VIN plates. In all the years
I was
> with Ford VIN plate pop rivets were of a unique color, shape and
size. They
> were, until a couple of years ago, kept under lock and key and
unavailable
>ay with gluing them on is a question that would be interesting to have
> answered.
> 
> Bruce Benson
> 
> 
> 
> 








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:57:36 -0000
From: "jamesrguk" <James_rg_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Polished number plate surround



Yep itis rather 'Bling' I will grain one, or you could do it 
yourself. the alloy is very soft, you woulc be able to brush it with 
some heavy grit sandpaper in about 10 minutes I think.

I have the only other polished one on my car and have installed some 
blue bulbs in the numberplate lamp holders, looks amaaaaazzing, and 
of course, completley reversable!



James


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...> 
wrote:
> 
> Dude, that is one bad mutha-f-er!!!!
> 
> How much did that set you back?
> ...and how much for me to get one?
> - Videobob
> 
> - PS: Are you going to add a "grain" to it to make it look 
stainless?
> 
> >From: "jamesrguk" <James_rg_at_dml_h...>
> >Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> >To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [DML] Polished number plate surround
> >Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:09:29 -0000
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Some of you may have seen my posting a while back about these...
> >
> >
> >Today I collected the final product from the foundry and all I can
> >say is WOW.
> >
> >
> >Take a look in the photos section under "bezel_polished" and enjoy
> >
> >All comments welcome.
> >
> >
> >James








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:10:06 EST
From: mroboto_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: We need a group hug!


I find it very interesting that the subject of the Concours frequently 
surfaces with such controversy. Deloreans are quirky weird cars, and by nature so 
are those who choose to own them. Therefore, I guess I should really not be 
surprised by the odd banter that streams across the DML. As many of you know, I 
have spent a gazillion hours preparing my car for three Concours in a row. I did 
not do it for any reason other than the desire to get my car as close to the 
way it was meant to be in 1981. It was done with a fun spirit of competition, 
and to that avail, I wish there had been more competitors at Pigeon Forge.

James and the guys at DMCH worked their butts off to put together the basis 
for the manual. Then Ken Montgomery, Knut and others spent many hours to help 
update it. If you don't feel it's accurate, then volunteer your time to help. 
But that takes a lot more effort than complaining. (I think Michael Vick should 
have run with the ball more last Sunday too.)
The judges and assistant judges volunteered several hours to execute the 
scoring. I am sure each one of them has personal reasons why they do it, but 
that's their choice. For most of us this is a hobby, and nothing more. 
It's also a small community of cars and owners, and the DML is a great forum 
for the exchange of ideas, tech tips, etc. It's also a great way to meet other 
people with similar interests. However, I think it's counterproductive to 
throw so much criticism towards others on the list. Especially, if you are 
commenting on a segment of the group to which you don't participate in. A friendly 
ribbing between 81's and 83's is occasionally funny, but jeez, there is no 
reason to make anybody feel unwelcome because they don't fit into your exact class 
or category.
By the way, I too own an '83 turbo with undercoat, and I don't like it any 
less than my Concours car.
If you don't care for the Concours competition, don't compete. However, I 
highly recommend it, even if your car does not win, it's a fun feeling of 
accomplishment, and a great way to learn more about your car.

Hey Koncelik, I've got a great idea for the Pheasant Run show. Instead of 
BTTF guest speakers, how about we invite Jesse Jackson to speak about 
discrimination!

Daniel Deutsch (Orlando)
#3356 & #15779




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:01:51 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Tom's 17168 and Concours 2000 ( was Re: 17000 Vins)


In a message dated 11/24/04 1:58:23 PM Central Standard Time, 
james_at_dml_usadmc.com writes:


>  Removing
> the glued on VIN plate will show the pop-rivet holes where the
> original VIN plate was attached.

My car is 11596 and is a Jan '82.  My Vin plate seems to have 'fallen off' 
this fall and probably went between the dash and windshield.  I never looked 
closely as to why this happened but maybe my car has a glued-on VIN?  it's not an 
'83 but was purchased from KAPAC in Ohio (I have documentation as such).  

My question is how do i re-affix the VIN plate, assuming i can dig it out 
from between the dash and windshield?  superglue?

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:03:32 +0100
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>
Subject: AW: 17000 Vins


Even rivetting them on is ridiculous from our point of view here.

Each car needs to have the VIN stamped into the frame to get 
a german licence.

Of course this is a little bit strange on a car where the fram can 
be swapped like that. But still better than drilling out some pop
rivets and gluing on the new VIN plate.

Has this meanwhile been changed ?

Elvis




I'm really curious about the 'glued' on VIN plates. In all the years I was
with Ford VIN plate pop rivets were of a unique color, shape and size. They
were, until a couple of years ago, kept under lock and key and unavailable
for the public to purchase. This was done ( however futile an attempt as it
was ) to make swapping VIN plates difficult. How a manufacturer in 1982 got
away with gluing them on is a question that would be interesting to have
answered.

Bruce Benson







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:29:31 -0000
From: chrisau79_at_dml_yahoo.com
Subject: Thanksgiving



Happy Thanksgiving to all!!

Chris
6301








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:20:27 -0000
From: "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_carolina.net>
Subject: Re: Judging at DeLo Shows


You'll need somehow to distinguish which cars are in judged
competition. I don't mind parking inside, but I do not want my vehicle
subjected to the rigors of judging. I already know it isn't
competitive without a bunch of judges telling me so. Every car that
was pushed into the Pigeon Forge convention center was judged in the
process (hence that long line).

You might also need to segregate competitive cars from fixer uppers.
An owner who has invested thousands of dollars may not appreciate
being surrounded by vehicles in much less pristine condition. I recall
grumbling along these lines after Memphis. And not every owner will
spend hours washing and cleaning their car at the location -- another
complaint I remember after Memphis.

At least at Pigeon Forge every DeLo inside was in very good to
excellent condition. Made a nice display.

Bill Robertson
#5939

>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, kKoncelik_at_dml_a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11/24/04 8:38:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> brobertson_at_dml_c... writes:
> 
> > <<<I am aggitating for *BOTH* judged and non-judged display at future
> > DCS's, with equitable concern for both classes of owners. For example,
> > even if #5335 isn't ready for the rigors of competition at this point
> > of its restoration, wouldn't you want to be included in the show in
> > some other capacity rather than relegated to parking with the general
> > public?>>>>>
> > 
> 
> 
> 
[moderator snip]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:43:31 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: A Probably Stupid Question



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "nitrousgarageworks"
<nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_y...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen,
>   I have a question: why in this age of super cars, and our age group 
> spending big bucks for the machines of their youths: Why didn' the 
> DMC come back? Is John Delorean dead or something? We see the streets 
> crawling with super cars, and he had a design that 20 years ago beat 
> them all, why doesn't he sense it? Why doesn't he "do it again"? From 
> what I understand of history the big "Auto Makers" ganged up on him, 
> and shut him down. Why doesn't he take them on again? I think we 
> deserve what his vision has to offer.

It's not a stupid question at all. In fact, it's probably one that's
on allot of peoples minds when it comes to classic cars. But to know
the real answer to this, you've got to first know what the industry
has to deal with, in terms of delveloping new cars, and in some cases,
why they have to.

As the years have passed, new cars have had 3 main constraints that
they must be guided by. Fuel economy, emissions, and safety.
Unfortunetly, you can't have all three, without them affecting one
another. It would most likely be infinetly cheaper to manufacture most
classic cars with their moderatly simplistic interiors. Even if you
were to graft modern OBD-II emissions, and intergrate cupholders. The
problem is then safety concerns. Yeah, if I were to slam a classic
anything into some rinky-dink Honda Inisight, I'm pretty sure I'll be
fine. On the other hand, the Honda will most likey be wasted itself,
and would leave the driver in who knows what condition. So safety not
only concerns you as a passenger in a vechicle, but how your vehicle
will react with another car, to share the shock of the impact.
Fortunely, we are blesssed with trucks, and SUVs, which in many cases
allow us to get around many of these asinine restictions (note: I am
already ready for the offlist comments that statement alone will
genterate).

Now the DeLorean has to deal with all of this, and two more problems
inherint to itself, alone. The first being the fact that the DMC-12 is
a great vehicle for mass production, but not repeat sales. Let's face
it, with a plastic under body, stainless steel body panels, and an
optional stainless chassis as well, you've got a formula for a car
which will last the test of time. But indestructable cars are the
absolute worst thing a company can crank out. Where the hell are the
repeat buyers going to come from?

The second, and most important item is this: We've got a nasty stigma
that stems from the original company. That of course must go without
saying. Because of the easy construction, beautiful styling, and
adaptability of the car to new components, the DMC-12 is the ideal car
for a comeback. Even moreso, when you consider that the ideals behind
the car itself, and what it represents is also a huge magnet to
people. But it won't happen while the man himself is still alive.
Simply put, he makes investors too nervous. He has gone thru a
complete 360 turn. His presence made the company possible, because he
was there, and that eased investor concerns. Now, it's the complete
opposite. People are going to be willing to put up venture capital for
things associated with the car, and not some bus, or a snowgrooming
operation in hell's half acre, up in Utah. Doesn't matter if something
along these lines is going to be a good idea or not. The investors are
going to want to have a say in the matter. It doesn't even matter if
the possibility were there or not. Investors are going to want the
have some sort of permanent assurance that the company's finances are
locked down, and only focused on what they were originally earmarked for.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------