From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2349
Date: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:22 PM


There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: How THICK are you?
From: Eric Itzel <eric_at_dml_seviernet.com>

2. MSO DMC FOR SALE & DEALER SIGN
From: "austinbrumley" <austinbrumley_at_dml_delorean.com>

3. Re: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: "Mike Polzin" <MPolzin_at_dml_sen.com>

4. locking up Michelins (was: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use)
From: "Louie" <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>

5. Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com

6. NC get together
From: "Louie" <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>

7. Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>

8. Re: just stuff
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>

9. Re: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "Steve" <steve_at_dml_fotofx.net>

10. Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>

11. Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>





Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:36:07 -0500
From: Eric Itzel <eric_at_dml_seviernet.com>
Subject: Re: How THICK are you?


( I'm killing this thread as it's going nowhere. Moderator)


Marc, concrete would stick in the filter and cause premature wear- you
should think about using vermiculite instead- very thick when wet, but lacks
the hardening quality.

Eric

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Levy" <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:53 AM
Subject: [DML] How THICK are you?


>
>
> Lucas AND "some other motor honey"?
>
> I like the Lucas stuff, and use it in some
> applications.  But it does make the oil THICKER.
> Then, you went and added yet another "honey"?  even
> THICKER.
>
> More is not better.
>
> Why not put some molasses in there too?  Heck, go for
> concrete.
>
> --- Videobob Moseley <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> > I also added a bottle of Lucus and some other motor
> > honey I bought
> > at a car show... tou know the stuff where they show
> <SNIP>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>





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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:48:42 -0000
From: "austinbrumley" <austinbrumley_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: MSO DMC FOR SALE & DEALER SIGN


Hey, guys i know it's been a while since i posted anything but i 
thought you might want to hear about this. This is gonna sound wierd 
but here is the deal. I know this guy that owns a string of car lots 
through Kansas. His health is failing and they approached me to help 
sell one of his many collector cars. as of yet i don't know much 
about it but it is a new MSO car. It's been sitting for a long time 
so it will have the normal problems i'm sure. I'm going to try not to 
use Ebay for this. Also there is an original Delorean dealer sign. 
It's huge! if anyone is interested just get ahold of me for more 
details. FYI i think this is going to go cheap.

austinbrumley(AT)delorean.com








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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:55:38 -0600
From: "Mike Polzin" <MPolzin_at_dml_sen.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


I guess the thing that bothers me about this "discussion" is that I have to
sit here and defend a product that I have been using for over a year against
people who haven't used it, and thus can't possibly have a clue as to its
value. I guess no matter what, people are going to argue especially when you
decide to change the car from its stock configuration.

So, I am going to drive around with my shiney stainless steel air box and
show it off at car shows, along with my stainless steel fuel lines, and
custom exhaust and let people ooh and ahh about how cool this thing looks.
They will know I take pride in my car, as the Delorean purists walk by and
sneer. At least I am enjoying it!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DMCVIN6683" <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


>
>
> John that is what some of them are saying but i dont believe it either,
> I am on your side for this discussion.
>
> Mark V
>
>
>
> On Friday, December 3, 2004, at 11:07  AM, John Hervey wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hey Guy's help me out here,
> > So, What yall are saying is that when new products come out there will
> > be no
> > improvement in performance and efficiency because it wasn't available
> > 24
> > years ago for them to evaluate when they designed the car / engine.
> > Then all the claims that Bosch, MSD, Mallory, K & N not counting all
> > the
> > other the 100's of companies that have the engineering money are wrong.
> > For example, Bosch in the platinum + 4 plugs. They have poured
> > Millions into
> > design and research and state the +4 is the Best plug. MSD again have
> > poured
> > millions and have developed a multi million dollar industry in improved
> > ignition performance products.
> > And K & N took 50 year old technology and improved the air filter from
> > being
> > big and bulky to compact and spray on the oil. Maybe if spray oil was
> > invented 50 years ago the old oil bath filter would have never been
> > made.
> > If what your are saying is true, then why are engineering departments
> > all
> > over the world trying to build a better mouse trap and always trying to
> > improve the existing ones.
> > Sorry, I don't understand: I just know That if you keep on doing what
> > your
> > doing then you keep on getting what you got.
> > John Hervey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
> > [mailto:mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:59 PM
> > To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Marty - this reinforces my point exactly.  It's kinda funny that
> > a bunch of experienced engineers with a large amount of
> > resources available to them can deliver a better design than
> > a novice.
> >
> > --
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message from wingd2_at_dml_aol.com: --------------
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> I agree with you on this. The only real way to verify claims of power
> >> increases is thru actual testing. Like David T was saying, these
> >> engines
> > were
> >> developed with all the parts working as a "package" and just
> > changeing/modifing
> >> one
> >> part of this package does not necessarily equal performance gains.
> >> When
> > Casey
> >> first came out with his new air filter housing I liked the design, but
> >> questioned the actual gains that were claimed. We've done actual dyno
> > testing
> >> (Bob
> >> Brandies has the charts) of the stock Delorean air filter housing and
> > different
> >> filter combinations available for the car and, believe it or not, the
> > stock
> >> Delorean air filter housing is designed and works very well with this
> > engine.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> > moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> > For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
> > www.dmcnews.com
> >
> > To search the archives or view files, log in at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> > moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> > For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
> > www.dmcnews.com
> >
> > To search the archives or view files, log in at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:18:41 -0000
From: "Louie" <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: locking up Michelins (was: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use)



I've got Michelin Pilots on my car with probably about about 10k 
miles on them. I locked up my front wheels earlier this week in an 
emergency stop on *DRY PAVEMENT*. I was behind one of Charlotte's 
many city busses approaching an intersection. They are so tall and 
the DeLorean is so short that I couldn't tell until after he had 
gotten part way through the intersection that the bus had run a red 
light. We've got tons of photo enforced lights in town so I slammed 
on my brakes as no one was behind me (I'm getting tired of the $50 
tickets!). I locked up my front brakes so hard that they sent out a 
good puff of smoke in front of the car (just like in BTTF *gags*). 
I've broken traction with my car in other circumstances too, but 
those were all me being stupid and I won't go into them lol.

-Louie Golden #5252 Charlotte, NC


Harold McElraft wrote:

Either you are driving like a wild man or there is something wrong 
with your brakes. I can hardly get my Pilots to break loose on wet 
roads - forget dry pavement.

Harold McElraft - 3354








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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:22:46 EST
From: wingd2_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


In a message dated 12/3/2004 3:51:05 PM Central Standard Time, 
dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com writes:
   From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


Hey Guy's help me out here,
So, What yall are saying is that when new products come out there will be no
improvement in performance and efficiency because it wasn't available 24
years ago for them to evaluate when they designed the car / engine.
Then all the claims that Bosch, MSD, Mallory, K & N not counting all the
other the 100's of companies that have the engineering money are wrong.

    John,

   Read again what I said. I did not say that upgrading the air filter to a 
K&N style unit is bad. Matter of fact, dyno testing on my car showed a 3 hp 
increase at the rear wheels buy just changing a brand new paper filter with a K&N 
unit. What I said was that testing has shown me that the stock Delorean air 
filter housing is an excellent design just as it is, and it does not restrict 
air flow into the engine. It's design actually helps improve the performance of 
the engine by directing the air flow and increasing the velocity of the air 
into the intake. And so far, additional testing of other air filter housings 
(Volvo's, Renault's and others I've played with, including Casey's design) have 
not shown any improvements or performance advantages over the original stock 
Delorean unit. The best performance combination I've found so far is a stock 
Delorean air filter housing - with the intake tube hooked up like it is supposed 
to be into the pontoon for cooler outside air - with a K&N filter inside.    

  Marty  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:37:38 -0000
From: "Louie" <louie_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: NC get together



Hi List,

Myself and several owners are thinking about having an after 
holidays get together in North Carolina. It would likely be held in 
either Charlotte or Winston-Salem North Carolina just after New 
Years. January 3-4 works for me, but I'll take suggestions. We've 
got no specific agenda either... probably just a group of owners 
chatting and playing with our cars and maybe go to dinner or 
something. Jeff Friday of Concord is going to look into getting us 
track time at Lowe's Motor Speedway, but I would count on something 
more low key and laid back. 

Right now we've got 4 owners in state who are guaranteed to show, 
and I've got two owners from the Gulf Coast who have expressed 
interest as well. I know of several other owners within a couple 
hours driving distance who might be interested as well. So we could 
have 4 cars or we could have 10 (who knows, maybe more!). Let me 
know if you're interested and what dates/activities appeal to you. 
Oh, and you don't need to be an owner to attend! :-)

Louie Golden #5252 Charlotte, NC








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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:38:44 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> 
> Put in a copy of BTTF 1, just after Marty goes back in time and leaves 
> Peabody's farm
> he is driving down an old country road and then slamms the brakes.
> The cars slides on the front wheels and then jerks to the left hard.
> 
> There is your DeLorean braking system.
> Of course, those were a set of Goodyear NCT's but the also on bone dry 
> asphalt.
<SNIP>

And of course, that is a movie, which does things like that for
effect. Get a good set of tires that are proven on wet pavement. Good
tires will flush the water out from under them. Next, you just need to
learn not to panic. There have been a couple of times where I've lost
traction in the rain. Just let off the brakes, let the tires re-grip
the road, and then either resume braking as hard as you can, before
you lose grip of the road. Or steer out of the way into a safe lane,
or even the dirt.

Other than that, a new set of shock absorbers is going to greatly help
you maintain control. When you hydroplane, it works like this: You
tires lock up, and they lose grip of the road. This in turn causes
them to 'hop', and they'll bouce off the road, and lose contact all
together with it. When they come back down, they;ll hit water, and
will then slide across the surface of it. With a good set of shocks,
you can reduce, if not eliminate "wheel hop". This can not only
greatly reduce your chance of hydroplaning, but will also decrease
braking distance on both wet and dry pavement.

Not only would new shocks enable you to keep your tires in better
contact with the road, but you'll also be keeping more surface area of
the tire against the pavement. As tires have less weight pressing them
down, they will become rounder, due to their internal air pressure,
and will loose contact area, even if they never leave the road fully.
Even if you don't have any "wheel hop" to speak of right now, you can
increase the "footprint" of the tires durring braking, to maintain a
larger amount of friction, and thus decrease braking distance.

It's really funny. Right now in the thread about air filters, everyone
is in agreement that you can't simply replace one part, and expect a
whole bunch of improvement, without replacing other components that
work in tandem on a particular system. This applies to not only engine
performance, but every other system on the car. Even allot of
magazines who tested the DeLorean when it first debuted, were in
agreement that the brakes were excellent on the car. So ask yourself,
what has changed since then, and what needs replacement?

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:49:53 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: just stuff



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Murray Fisher" <murrayfw_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Dick,
>     As one "old Geezer" to another....you let the cat out of the bag.  I was
> trying to keep Les from being chastised by everyone on the list and like I
> always say, to each his own poison!  Ho ho.  I can make a statement like
> many make to me re my D.  I have read about the Bricklin but never have seen
> one in person. I haven't read the rest of the 41 DML on here this morning so
> there may be more nasty comments re his choice!  Ha.   Fun fun.  See you
> down the List.
>     Murray

Hey, people change, and so do their tastes. Nothing wrong with that at all. Although, I had 
been wondering why he hadn't posted in a while...

Allong the same lines as Murray, does anyone here either have, or know of someone who 
has a good condition Bricklin that they could bring to the next DCS event, or something 
like that? The reason that I ask, is because I have seen a couple of Bricklins in person here 
in Vegas, but they've all been damaged by the elements, and have not been in the best of 
condition.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:55:44 -0500
From: "Steve" <steve_at_dml_fotofx.net>
Subject: Re: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use



Bob, the hydroplaning problem you are referring to is common for any vehicle
without anti-lock brakes. The car will always go in the direction of the
momentum even if you turn the wheels. I was lucky enough to get to try it on
a driving course but the next time it rains go to your local shopping center
(open space) and try letting go of the brakes as you are turning. You will
get immediate control and the car will turn. It takes a bit of time and
skill to not lock the brakes in a panic but the anti lock is not doing
anything that people already did manually for many years, it may do it
better but after a few hours practice on a wet lot you should be able to
override the urge to put your foot thru the floor when some idiot cuts you
off. I don't know if you have a stick but engine braking will slow you down
pretty quickly without having to use as much brake.


Steve
#2700


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


>
>
> Yeah, but when some asshole in a BMW crosses 3 lanes to jump in front of
you
> and get into the left lane, then another idiot decides to stop at the
yellow
> instead
> of flooring it like everyone else does, then the BMW stops short with his
> $135K car's
> braking system.... then your 20+ year old brake technology simply locks
the
> wheels,
> then you begin to hydroplane and actually PICK UP speed, and even if you
> turn the wheel
> and nothing happens...... THEN WHAT?
> I was only going 30 MPH on a concrete road, "Beltline" in Dallas known
which
> has one of the most accident prone intersections in the USA (as studied by
> insurance companies).
>
> I am not talking about ideal driving conditions with Ms. Daisy, in a panic
> stop this is
> not a good car to be in.
> It will slide and then jerk you into another direction.
> (Like I said, watch BTTF1 and see the car do it)
> I am guessing that this is because the pressure is not evenly distributed
> among all the
> brack cylinders, as pressure releases it allows one wheel to spin and gain
> traction,
> if you are attempting to turn out of the way and the wheel is turned a
> little it will
> grab and jerk you in that direction.
> This actually helped me once.
> Some guy came to a quick dead stop on a 55 MPH little road, I slammed the
> brakes
> and started sliding, at the last second before I hit him, the car jerked
to
> the right hard and steered
> me around the truck and into the shoulder.
>
> Divine intervention or faulty engineering saved my ass.
>
> I have gotten used to driving cars with ABS, my Taurus is such a good car
> that I can not
> make it go out of control if I try.
> I have tried to do some age old brake tricks but nothing works.
> You can slam the brakes and steer like normal and come to a quick
controlled
> stop.
> There is a lot of difference in todays cars compared to the one's of a few
> decades ago.
> - Videobob
>
> >From: "Owen _at_dml_ Aerodrome" <owen_at_dml_aerodrome.us>
> >Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> >To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [DML] Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
> >Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 08:31:32 -0800
> >
> >
> >
> > > Yes it's true, I do drive like a mad man, but that was not the case
when
> >I
> > > was only
> > > going 30 MPH, and slid about 50 feet into the back of a BMW with zero
> > > control of the
> > > car in heavy rain.
> > > Bottom line, leave the car at home in the rain and take the OTHER car.
> >
> >No offence meant, but I think I'm gonna go with "learn to drive properly
in
> >the rain, since it'll come in handy in other situations, too."
> >
> >At 30mi/hr, a 3-second following distance (the minimum sane distance in
wet
> >weather) equates to 132 feet, giving plenty of room to stop, even if you
do
> >slide.  A fifty-foot following distance might have qualified for "mad
mad"
> >status after all.  :-)
> >
> >Regards,
> >Owen
> >
> >VIN 10470 "1 21 GW"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> >moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> >For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
> >
> >To search the archives or view files, log in at
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:07:47 -0000
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
Subject: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use



Other than the occasional incorrect BTTF reference, such as no
NCT's used on Deloreans in any of the three BTTF movies, there
is another more important reason why VB seems to rub people the
wrong way and that's a lack of behind wheel time in a Delorean.

I have owned one or more Deloreans since 1985 and have logged
tens of thousands of miles driving several different Deloreans,
in all kinds of weather conditions, but I do not feel the need
comment "this is the way all Deloreans must be" just because it
happened in one car, under one set of circumstances.  It's these
type of incorrect comments that paint a bad picture of Deloreans.

VB is still a new owner with less than a year of behind the wheel
time in a Delorean (especially since it was down for repairs),
yet the casual or new member to the DML may think he has years of
experience by the way he states his opinions.  I remember some of
VB's first posts, when he was comparing his Taurus to his Delorean
when discussing braking (he still posts about the Taurus).

My point here is not to bash VB's incorrect assumptions, but rather
to recommend looking at the big picture and consider other things
that may be the root cause of the poor braking conditions of his
Delorean.  Sometimes you have to look at a problem a little deeper.
Some of you have already mentioned other possible contributing
factors and it may be a number of these things all together.

Type of tires, age, condition and air pressures.  Condition of the
brake master.  Type and condition of the brake lines (rubber or SS)
Type and condition of brake fluid.  Condition of the brake pads
(even if new, one or more pads can easily get glazed).  Type and
condition of rotors and the operating condition of the calipers.
Alignment also plays a big part in stable braking conditions.

Other items that are not usually thought about with braking on
other types of cars (like the Taurus) is the condition of the
trailing arm bolts (bent, loose, tight but shims missing, etc.)
and the condition of ball joints and suspension bushings.

Another item often overlooked by possibly half of all Delorean
owners (because this only applies to Deloreans with automatics)
is the effects of heavy braking, wet or dry, when combined with
the downshifting of the automatic transmission.  The automatic
Deloreans do not downshift like a Taurus and this could result
in an unnerving effect during heavy braking or a panic stop.

My advice to VB would be to look beyond what appears to be the
obvious and seek out the advice of more experienced Delorean
drivers.  Go out and drive your Delorean when the weather is bad
but AWAY from others and adjust you braking style with the car.
Check all the components listed above on a regular basis and
get more behind the wheel miles in to gain more D experience.

Later,
Rich W.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...> 
wrote:
> 
> Put in a copy of BTTF 1, just after Marty goes back in time and 
leaves 
> Peabody's farm
> he is driving down an old country road and then slamms the brakes.
> The cars slides on the front wheels and then jerks to the left 
hard.
> 
> There is your DeLorean braking system.
> Of course, those were a set of Goodyear NCT's but the also on bone 
dry 
> asphalt.









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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:21:37 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_a...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I agree, the NCTs are
> probably a big factor as well as to why the car slid. 
> 
> Patrick
> 1880

Nope. BTTF used Goodyear Eagle GT tires. It is a little hard to tell in that scene, and in the 
final scene with the alarm clock, since the RWL are so faded. But they are the Eagle GTs.

Having a built in DVD player is nice. :) But I feel like such a fanboy now. I just spent the 
past few minutes freeze-framing a movie, to look at the treads, and sidewalls of a tire, on 
a car, in a 20 year old movie, so that I could respond to a debate on the internet! Someone 
please shoot me if I start wearing a costume to any comicons!

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








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