From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2350
Date: Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:58 AM


There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

2. DeLorean efficiency
From: "Tom Porter" <treehouse2000us_at_dml_yahoo.com>

3. Re: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

4. High quality vinyl seat covers for sale..
From: "painterdave72" <painterdave72_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. Re: How THICK are you?
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

6. Re: How THICK are you?
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

7. Re: How THICK are you?
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

8. RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

9. Re: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

10. Re: just stuff
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

11. Re: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

12. RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

13. RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

14. Re: oil discussion
From: Scott McMullan <smcmullan_at_dml_gmail.com>

15. more on oil
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>

16. Re: How THICK are you?
From: M5E <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

18. Re: just stuff
From: "Matthew David" <DMC5524_at_dml_hotmail.com>

19. some other tips
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>

20. Re: How THICK are you?
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>

21. RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

22. RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

23. RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

24. RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_comcast.net>

25. Re: DeLorean efficiency
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>





Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:07:14 -0600
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


Thanks Mark. Some people just don't like change and want to critize what
other try to do to improve the car.
Thanks



-----Original Message-----
From: DMCVIN6683 [mailto:dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:40 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Upgrading the Air Filter




John that is what some of them are saying but i dont believe it either,
I am on your side for this discussion.

Mark V



On Friday, December 3, 2004, at 11:07  AM, John Hervey wrote:

>
>
> Hey Guy's help me out here,
> So, What yall are saying is that when new products come out there will
> be no
> improvement in performance and efficiency because it wasn't available
> 24
> years ago for them to evaluate when they designed the car / engine.
> Then all the claims that Bosch, MSD, Mallory, K & N not counting all
> the
> other the 100's of companies that have the engineering money are wrong.
> For example, Bosch in the platinum + 4 plugs. They have poured
> Millions into
> design and research and state the +4 is the Best plug. MSD again have
> poured
> millions and have developed a multi million dollar industry in improved
> ignition performance products.
> And K & N took 50 year old technology and improved the air filter from
> being
> big and bulky to compact and spray on the oil. Maybe if spray oil was
> invented 50 years ago the old oil bath filter would have never been
> made.
> If what your are saying is true, then why are engineering departments
> all
> over the world trying to build a better mouse trap and always trying to
> improve the existing ones.
> Sorry, I don't understand: I just know That if you keep on doing what
> your
> doing then you keep on getting what you got.
> John Hervey
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
> [mailto:mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:59 PM
> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Upgrading the Air Filter
>
>
>
>
> Marty - this reinforces my point exactly.  It's kinda funny that
> a bunch of experienced engineers with a large amount of
> resources available to them can deliver a better design than
> a novice.
>
> --
> Mike
>
>
> -------------- Original message from wingd2_at_dml_aol.com: --------------
>
>
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I agree with you on this. The only real way to verify claims of power
>> increases is thru actual testing. Like David T was saying, these
>> engines
> were
>> developed with all the parts working as a "package" and just
> changeing/modifing
>> one
>> part of this package does not necessarily equal performance gains.
>> When
> Casey
>> first came out with his new air filter housing I liked the design, but
>> questioned the actual gains that were claimed. We've done actual dyno
> testing
>> (Bob
>> Brandies has the charts) of the stock Delorean air filter housing and
> different
>> filter combinations available for the car and, believe it or not, the
> stock
>> Delorean air filter housing is designed and works very well with this
> engine.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
Yahoo! Groups Links













________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:18:19 -0000
From: "Tom Porter" <treehouse2000us_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: DeLorean efficiency



To pharaphrase GMC, Not more than you need, just 'less' than your use 
to.  Over the last couple of weeks people on the list have been 
stating comparisons of what DeLorean made in the 60's (muscle cars) 
and his own version in the early 80's.  And then there were some 
comparisons to the 81 DMC and new cars of today.  And then there were 
posts about how stupid it is comparing technology of different 
decades, and differnt restrictions and regulations of the different 
eras.

I think though there has been an argument that has been left out of 
this whole mess... DeLorean efficiency.  Now this is not talking gas 
milege, although our dmc's are pretty good on gas in comparison to 
other 80's cars.

The efficiency I'm talking about is how much horsepower it takes to 
move a car at a certain speed.  I dont want to get into a big 
argument here over this, but take a Bricklin, or a Corvette, or some 
other muscle car, or yes, even a current day car.  Say we take a 
corvette, not a car person, but dont the old ones from the 70's have 
350 hp, or something like that.  Now what is the top speed.  I'm not 
sure, but with that lousy 3 speed auto I'm sure it cant do much more 
than say 120-140, tops.  It takes 350hp to make the car get up to 
140mph.  In my book that is a waste of horsepower, and efficiency is 
near 40%.

Take a DeLorean with its measly 130hp.  Its been doccumented at going 
apx 130mph, stock, not mentioning performance enhancing Island Turbo 
kits, and V8 Northstars and the like.  The Volvo engine were 
talking.  It might take a while, but that 130hp is capable of driving 
the car up to 130mph or about there, depending if your car's in 
tune.  In my book that is nearing 1 hp per 1 mph.  Or nearly 100% 
efficiency.

Now we talk about DeLorean being a Genius sometimes, and that the DMC-
12 is an engineers car.  Think about it.  What more could you ask for 
than to make a car as efficient as possible while making it striking 
and beautiful on the outside.  While execs of other companys thought 
how to make a sports car or an exotic was to throw in a huge engine, 
DeLorean rose above this, creating a near perfect car, not only 
asteticly, but mechanicaly as well.

Other manufactures have done this, but only by default sticking in 
measly 100hp engines because they were easy and cheap to 
manufacture.  Although John was severly limited in his engine choices 
at the time, I believe that this was a decision made and autherized 
by the factory to make an ethical car.  Remember, this car was 25,000 
dollars in a time when you could by a Honda for only 4,000.  It would 
have been easy for John to stick in a big V8 powerplant.

And just to show you that this isnt just a fluke and flawed 
reasoning, didnt the 70's prototype with a 4 cylinder engine only 
generate apx 120hp?  Its estimated top speed was 120.  Ratio of near 
100% effiency.  If you dont think John succeed in created an 
ethical "Sports" car, I dont know what would change your mind.

Tom Porter
Maine, USA










________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:03:16 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


In a message dated 12/3/04 9:45:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com writes:


> ...cause that's what the book says.
> That's what DMCH says, and what other vendors have said....
> to use 20/50 in temps over 14 degrees F.

Last time I talked to Rob Grady he told me 10W40 is what they put in D's when 
they do an oil change.

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:25:11 -0000
From: "painterdave72" <painterdave72_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: High quality vinyl seat covers for sale..



Hey all would anyone be interested in purchasing a pair of very good quality 
grey seat covers for thier car??? These covers are in excellent conditon 
except for a small one half inch tear in the passenger bottom which has been 
professionally mended but might need it again someday.. I will sell these 
pretty cheap....would be  a great alternative to the leather ones if someone 
didnt want to spend that much.. Thanks.. Dave.. vin 15275..








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:40:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How THICK are you?


I dont think it is the same Lucas.

http://www.lucasoil.com/


--- Chris Shepherd <chrisau79_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> For years I have been finding failed electronic
> components that have Lucas embossed on them. I take
> them out and find a replacement from any other
> manufacturer. If, by chance, I run across one that
> still functions I remove it, hit it with a hammer
> and then find a replacement. Why would anyone buy
> anything with that name on it. Stupid! The two my
> not be related but there is something to a name.
>  
> Chris
> 6301


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:11:00 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How THICK are you?


I am not sure what you are reffering to,
but in most auto parts stores you will see a little display of white plastic 
gears in a clear case
in two sets, one with untreated oil, and the other with LUCUS oil additive.
The one with the oil additive clearly is thicker and coats better.
This is the stuff I added to the engine.
Yes, it is thicker and might not be the best thing to do in the winter,
but thier claim is that the thicker oil sticks to the metal better leaving 
behind
a residue and actually helping cold starts....

I don't know, I'll give it a shot.
Can't be all that bad.
With all the money I toss out the window and into strippers g-strings,
what's another few bucks?

- VB

>From: Chris Shepherd <chrisau79_at_dml_yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [DML] How THICK are you?
>Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:55:08 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>
>For years I have been finding failed electronic components that have Lucas 
>embossed on them. I take them out and find a replacement from any other 
>manufacturer. If, by chance, I run across one that still functions I remove 
>it, hit it with a hammer and then find a replacement. Why would anyone buy 
>anything with that name on it. Stupid! The two my not be related but there 
>is something to a name.
>
>Chris
>6301
>
>Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>Lucas AND "some other motor honey"?
>
>I like the Lucas stuff, and use it in some
>applications. But it does make the oil THICKER.
>Then, you went and added yet another "honey"? even
>THICKER.
>
>More is not better.
>
>Why not put some molasses in there too? Heck, go for
>concrete.
>
>--- Videobob Moseley wrote:
>
>
> > I also added a bottle of Lucus and some other motor
> > honey I bought
> > at a car show... tou know the stuff where they show
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>All your favorites on one personal page  Try My Yahoo!
>http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:26:26 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: How THICK are you?


In a message dated 12/3/04 12:13:40 PM Central Standard Time, 
malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com writes:


> More is not better.
> 
> Why not put some molasses in there too?  Heck, go for
> concrete.

Agreed.  I have a client where I work who owns a Mercury Villager with the 
Nissan V6.  Recommends 5W30 year-round.  He chooses to put in 10W40 PLUS Lucas 
Oil Stabilizer in (brings his own parts).  One of my techs dumped the 
stabilizer in a funnel while adding it for him, and it took about 2 minutes for one 
quart to slowly ooze into the engine.  Last winter I saw the customer stuck at a 
Pizza Hut - couldn't get the car to start.  I suspect the thick gel he had in 
the engine had something to do with it.  The next time I saw him in the shop 
he had some nasty valve train clanking.  I'm sure that Lucas stuff DOES stick 
to the cylinder walls longer, but imagine your poor oil pump trying to suck 
that stuff up on a 20 deg morning????

No wonder your D won't start, even in Dallas!

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:26:34 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


The added weight of (maybe a 100 pounds) of the rear vents would only HELP 
the car
by adding weight, which adds pressure to the road.
If the weight were the problem the brakes would not lock but would be over 
worked
and warp under friction.
Under speed, the vents would push the car down closer to the road like a 
large spoiler
and help with stability.

The props on the car have no effects on it's ride, they are light weight 
aluminum parts
and could do nothing more than create wind drag and a whistle, but would not 
effect the
braking much.

Dudes... this stupid conversation is boring.
All I know is this.
Road + water + brakes = traction loss causing hydroplaning even at low 
speeds in a car
with a low front to rear weight ratio, and having smaller wheels on a stiff 
suspension...yada yada yada.
What proof?

View these pictures from last year and ask me if I have confidence in the 
car on wet roads.
http://dfwdmc.com/wreck.html

- VB

>From: "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
>Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:42:07 -0000
>
>
>
>
>It's important to remember that all of the %#_at_dml_^$#_at_dml_% strapped to the
>DeLorean in Back To The Future significantly changes the aerodynamics
>of the car in itself.  Picture a side view, and assume that the wind
>travels over the roof of the car, down the back, and it pushes DOWN on
>those big heavy metal vents on the rear of the car.  I assume that
>this would push the back of the car down a little more, giving the
>front of the car a little lift, thus not giving the tires an ideal
>contact with the surface of the road, like a stock DeLorean.  This
>however is merely my speculation, I am sure the physics majors here
>can dispute what I just said in some way. I agree, the NCTs are
>probably a big factor as well as to why the car slid.
>
>Patrick
>1880
>
>
>
>
>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> >
> > Put in a copy of BTTF 1, just after Marty goes back in time and leaves
> > Peabody's farm
> > he is driving down an old country road and then slamms the brakes.
> > The cars slides on the front wheels and then jerks to the left hard.
> >
> > There is your DeLorean braking system.
> > Of course, those were a set of Goodyear NCT's but the also on bone dry
> > asphalt.
> >
> > On a wet road your car will slide like it's on glass if you lock the
>front
> > wheels.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:34:33 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


In a message dated 12/3/04 12:15:52 PM Central Standard Time, 
john_at_dml_specialtauto.com writes:


> For example, Bosch in the platinum + 4 plugs. They have poured Millions into
> design and research and state the +4 is the Best plug. MSD again have poured
> millions and have developed a multi million dollar industry in improved
> ignition performance products.
> 

One thing I've wondered about +4 Plugs - it seems to me that all 4 ground 
wires/electrodes cannot be precisely the same distance from the center electrode. 
 Since the spark is going to jump the quickest way it can, only one ground 
wire will cause the spark for combustion (the closest one).  How is that any 
better than a single-wire plug (besides being more profitable for Bosch)?  Sorry 
for the lack of DeLorean-specific content.

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:37:31 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: just stuff


I have always wanted to get a Bricklin, but you mention damage...
the problem is that the composites they used for fiberglass was not as good 
as it is now.
Back then they use loose glass with the resin, like in our underbodies.
This makes them very brittle and the reason why they ended up having to put
a steel frame up the middle of our cars instead of the one peice underbody 
as originaly planned.

With today's woven carbon fibers they could do it.

The fiberglass on these Bricklin's usually need to be completely redone.
The entire surface needs to be hard sanded, re coated and resealed and then 
wet sanded
and painted again..... The doors and interior also need to be completely 
reworked
with actuators, a whole lot of work, but one day I will do it.

If you want to see a real Bricklin doing some serious haulin'ass then find 
the re-issue
of the original "Gone In 60 Seconds" from the 70's.
It is wicked.
- VB

>From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [DML] just stuff
>Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:49:53 -0000
>
>
>
>
>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Murray Fisher" <murrayfw_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dick,
> >     As one "old Geezer" to another....you let the cat out of the bag.  I 
>was
> > trying to keep Les from being chastised by everyone on the list and like 
>I
> > always say, to each his own poison!  Ho ho.  I can make a statement like
> > many make to me re my D.  I have read about the Bricklin but never have 
>seen
> > one in person. I haven't read the rest of the 41 DML on here this 
>morning so
> > there may be more nasty comments re his choice!  Ha.   Fun fun.  See you
> > down the List.
> >     Murray
>
>Hey, people change, and so do their tastes. Nothing wrong with that at all. 
>Although, I had
>been wondering why he hadn't posted in a while...
>
>Allong the same lines as Murray, does anyone here either have, or know of 
>someone who
>has a good condition Bricklin that they could bring to the next DCS event, 
>or something
>like that? The reason that I ask, is because I have seen a couple of 
>Bricklins in person here
>in Vegas, but they've all been damaged by the elements, and have not been 
>in the best of
>condition.
>
>-Robert
>vin 6585 "X"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:49:11 -0600
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


You know that car also traveled back in time too so why don't our cars 
do the same?

  It was a movie prop car and nothing more and you cant compare any 
driving or braking characteristics to a real Delorean.

Quit using BTTF as a reference to the Deloreans performance.

Mark V


On Friday, December 3, 2004, at 01:20  PM, Dom Diaz wrote:

>
>
> Those were not Goodyear NCTs on the BTTF car. It also spun out when 
> taking
> off, does your do that much? I wouldn't use a movie as a definitive 
> comment
> on the capabilities of this car. You should drive yours back to 1955.
>
>> From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
>> Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>> To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [DML] Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
>> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:16:20 -0600
>>
>>
>>
>> Put in a copy of BTTF 1, just after Marty goes back in time and leaves
>> Peabody's farm
>> he is driving down an old country road and then slamms the brakes.
>> The cars slides on the front wheels and then jerks to the left hard.
>>
>> There is your DeLorean braking system.
>> Of course, those were a set of Goodyear NCT's but the also on bone dry
>> asphalt.
>>
>> On a wet road your car will slide like it's on glass if you lock the 
>> front
>> wheels.
>>
>> Maybe John Hervey is to blame?
>> I put on a set of his rebuilt brake calipers and they do work a lot 
>> better
>> than the originals did.
>> They will lock your wheels right up.
>>
>> Yes it's true, I do drive like a mad man, but that was not the case 
>> when I
>> was only
>> going 30 MPH, and slid about 50 feet into the back of a BMW with zero
>> control of the
>> car in heavy rain.
>> Bottom line, leave the car at home in the rain and take the OTHER car.
>> - VB






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:18:43 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


Confirmed.
In BTTF1, at 20:47 you will see an extreme close up of JUST the left rear 
tires as the car
power slides into position.
"Goodyear Eagle GT" is what is on the tire.

Schooled.
- VB

>From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
>Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:21:37 -0000
>
>
>
>
>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_a...> wrote:
><SNIP>
> > I agree, the NCTs are
> > probably a big factor as well as to why the car slid.
> >
> > Patrick
> > 1880
>
>Nope. BTTF used Goodyear Eagle GT tires. It is a little hard to tell in 
>that scene, and in the
>final scene with the alarm clock, since the RWL are so faded. But they are 
>the Eagle GTs.
>
>Having a built in DVD player is nice. :) But I feel like such a fanboy now. 
>I just spent the
>past few minutes freeze-framing a movie, to look at the treads, and 
>sidewalls of a tire, on
>a car, in a 20 year old movie, so that I could respond to a debate on the 
>internet! Someone
>please shoot me if I start wearing a costume to any comicons!
>
>-Robert
>vin 6585 "X"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:32:38 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


Rich,
thanks for the adjustment.
I can take it.
I don't mind constructive critizism mixed with a little busting as long as 
it comes
from someone who knows what they are talking about.

I know I am new, and compared to you guys I will always be new.
I have put about 25K miles on the car since I got it last November.
Since then I have crashed it, rebuilt the whole front end,
replaced the entire brake system, all the hoses and belts, taken the 
internal parts of the
doors apart and repaired the door locks and windows, removed most of the 
interior
to re-wire the stereo systems, GPS, etc..., re upholstered the seats, 
replaced the windshield,
the rims, the tires, facia, radiator, fans and a bunch of other junk.
It has been a long year.
I have been totally consumed by the car and related materials for last year 
now.
Every single day is a DeLorean day.

Aside from my own car, I have made a name for myself (good or bad) in the 
DeLorean
community in a short period of time resulting in nothing more than growing 
pains.

All that said,
All I said in the begining was that I don't want to drive the car in the 
rain,
it doesn't perform as well as a modern car in the rain and I would just 
assume
leave it at home to be on the safe side.

The end.
- VB


>From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use
>Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:07:47 -0000
>
>
>
>
>Other than the occasional incorrect BTTF reference, such as no
>NCT's used on Deloreans in any of the three BTTF movies, there
>is another more important reason why VB seems to rub people the
>wrong way and that's a lack of behind wheel time in a Delorean.
>
>I have owned one or more Deloreans since 1985 and have logged
>tens of thousands of miles driving several different Deloreans,
>in all kinds of weather conditions, but I do not feel the need
>comment "this is the way all Deloreans must be" just because it
>happened in one car, under one set of circumstances.  It's these
>type of incorrect comments that paint a bad picture of Deloreans.
>
>VB is still a new owner with less than a year of behind the wheel
>time in a Delorean (especially since it was down for repairs),
>yet the casual or new member to the DML may think he has years of
>experience by the way he states his opinions.  I remember some of
>VB's first posts, when he was comparing his Taurus to his Delorean
>when discussing braking (he still posts about the Taurus).
>
>My point here is not to bash VB's incorrect assumptions, but rather
>to recommend looking at the big picture and consider other things
>that may be the root cause of the poor braking conditions of his
>Delorean.  Sometimes you have to look at a problem a little deeper.
>Some of you have already mentioned other possible contributing
>factors and it may be a number of these things all together.
>
>Type of tires, age, condition and air pressures.  Condition of the
>brake master.  Type and condition of the brake lines (rubber or SS)
>Type and condition of brake fluid.  Condition of the brake pads
>(even if new, one or more pads can easily get glazed).  Type and
>condition of rotors and the operating condition of the calipers.
>Alignment also plays a big part in stable braking conditions.
>
>Other items that are not usually thought about with braking on
>other types of cars (like the Taurus) is the condition of the
>trailing arm bolts (bent, loose, tight but shims missing, etc.)
>and the condition of ball joints and suspension bushings.
>
>Another item often overlooked by possibly half of all Delorean
>owners (because this only applies to Deloreans with automatics)
>is the effects of heavy braking, wet or dry, when combined with
>the downshifting of the automatic transmission.  The automatic
>Deloreans do not downshift like a Taurus and this could result
>in an unnerving effect during heavy braking or a panic stop.
>
>My advice to VB would be to look beyond what appears to be the
>obvious and seek out the advice of more experienced Delorean
>drivers.  Go out and drive your Delorean when the weather is bad
>but AWAY from others and adjust you braking style with the car.
>Check all the components listed above on a regular basis and
>get more behind the wheel miles in to gain more D experience.
>
>Later,
>Rich W.
>
>
>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...>
>wrote:
> >
> > Put in a copy of BTTF 1, just after Marty goes back in time and
>leaves
> > Peabody's farm
> > he is driving down an old country road and then slamms the brakes.
> > The cars slides on the front wheels and then jerks to the left
>hard.
> >
> > There is your DeLorean braking system.
> > Of course, those were a set of Goodyear NCT's but the also on bone
>dry
> > asphalt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:01:48 -0500
From: Scott McMullan <smcmullan_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: oil discussion


And when I tried running 10w30 in my Delorean, I had no end of trouble
with my oil pressure, unce the engine was run for about 30 minutes. 
Switched back to 20w50 and haven't had a bit of trouble since.

I seem to be the only one reporting this particular problem, so maybe
I need a new oil pump, but a case of oil will keep me on the road for
now.





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 04:29:50 -0000
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: more on oil





  I'm not advocating anything. I'm just giving you my experience(s). 
Your choices are your choices. You have to bear in mind that when the 
DeLorean was built synthetic oil was in it's infancy, and not 
generally out in the public eye. Motor oil grades are to protect 
against wear, and heat. Recall your basic engine theory: The 
crankshaft rides on a film of "shearing" oil, off of the crank 
journals. The journals contain soft friction bearings, soft enough to 
score with you fingernail. It seems to me that the heavy grade oil 
specified for the DMC "back in the days" was to ensure a good "shear" 
pattern. Obviously 20W50 would flow at a slower rate, and require 
more oil pump pressure to move it than say 5W30 or 10W40. 20W50 is a 
pretty heavy grade of oil. It would also reach the crank journals, 
and friction bearings slightly slower at start up, when most of 
engine wear occurs.
  You get what you pay for, and with oil your paying for the additive 
package. I've reviewed the test results on everything from Casteroil, 
to Mobil One, and the one with the smallest wear, and best overall 
test results is Amsoil. If you claim your car is as precious to you 
as mine are to me, I opt for the best I can get for them. Oil and 
wear being one less thing I have to worry about when it comes to 
choices.
  I don't advocate motor oil additives, as your just paying top 
dollar for, and adding in what should have been present in the oil's 
additive package in the first place. 
  Choosing your brand of motor oil, grade, and such should be done 
with an open mind to new ideas, and advances in product technology.








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:47:25 -0800 (PST)
From: M5E <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How THICK are you?


Bear in mind oil additives, marketed "over the
counter" can be a "dis-similar" product to your
chemical makeup of your oil your using. Which means
they just end up sitting in the oil pan, adding to the
sludge, and clogging your oil pickup, adding to pump
wear, and component wear throughout the delivery
system within the engine.

--- Soma576_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

> 
> 
> In a message dated 12/3/04 12:13:40 PM Central
> Standard Time, 
> malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com writes:
> 
> 
> > More is not better.
> > 
> > Why not put some molasses in there too?  Heck, go
> for
> > concrete.
> 
> Agreed.  I have a client where I work who owns a
> Mercury Villager with the 
> Nissan V6.  Recommends 5W30 year-round.  He chooses
> to put in 10W40 PLUS Lucas 
> Oil Stabilizer in (brings his own parts).  One of my
> techs dumped the 
> stabilizer in a funnel while adding it for him, and
> it took about 2 minutes for one 
> quart to slowly ooze into the engine.  Last winter I
> saw the customer stuck at a 
> Pizza Hut - couldn't get the car to start.  I
> suspect the thick gel he had in 
> the engine had something to do with it.  The next
> time I saw him in the shop 
> he had some nasty valve train clanking.  I'm sure
> that Lucas stuff DOES stick 
> to the cylinder walls longer, but imagine your poor
> oil pump trying to suck 
> that stuff up on a 20 deg morning????
> 
> No wonder your D won't start, even in Dallas!
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for
> sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 04:43:57 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter



My advice is that you *can* "upgrade". The problem is there is no one
thing that will get you much improvement. Just changing an air filter
ain't going to do it! Now if you change the air filter you may notice
a "slight" improvement but combine that with a tune-up, a better
breathing exhaust, a hotter ignition, fresh, high octane gas, and
maybe some other things and all of a sudden you will get a measureable
change. The point here is that you have to go about this
realistically. And you have to be ready to spend a lot of money for
what will turn out to be small gains. If it was that easy then
everyone would be doing it. There is no *magic* here. There is the
story of the young boy walking into the speed shop and asking the
owner how fast he can make his car go and the owner replied "Speed
costs money, how much do you have to spend"? The laws of Physics
haven't changed all that much in 20 years.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, wingd2_at_dml_a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/3/2004 3:51:05 PM Central Standard Time, 
> dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com writes:
>    From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_s...>
> Subject: RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter









________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 04:49:15 +0000
From: "Matthew David" <DMC5524_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: just stuff




>From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

>I have always wanted to get a Bricklin, but you mention damage...
>the problem is that the composites they used for fiberglass was not as good
>as it is now.
>Back then they use loose glass with the resin, like in our underbodies.
>This makes them very brittle and the reason why they ended up having to put
>a steel frame up the middle of our cars instead of the one peice underbody
>as originaly planned.
>
>With today's woven carbon fibers they could do it.
>
>The fiberglass on these Bricklin's usually need to be completely redone.
>The entire surface needs to be hard sanded, re coated and resealed and then
>wet sanded
>and painted again..... The doors and interior also need to be completely
>reworked
>with actuators, a whole lot of work, but one day I will do it.
>
>If you want to see a real Bricklin doing some serious haulin'ass then find
>the re-issue
>of the original "Gone In 60 Seconds" from the 70's.
>It is wicked.
>- VB



I always thought the Brickllin's body was acrylic?


Matt C.







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 04:57:23 -0000
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: some other tips





  Some other tips: I found di-electric contact grease to be of great 
use, and of relative importance. Especially on older cars. I use it 
on EVERY electical contact, from spark plug head to boot connections, 
dash wiring connections, distributor and coil connections too.
  Di-electric contact grease, applied as film, not gooped on, can 
displace moisture, prevent corrosion, and ensure good electrical 
contacts in damn near all situations. Older cars seem to be vunerable 
to weak, and less than perfect electrical contacts, and connections. 
A moment's time spent, and a penny's worth of di-electric contact 
grease applied, can save you from having to do the job twice to get 
the desired results.








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 05:09:06 -0000
From: "nitrousgarageworks" <nitrousgarageworks_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How THICK are you?



I would advise avoiding Lucas products, as of late they have a very 
bad reputation, especially in electronic components.

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Chris Shepherd <chrisau79_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> For years I have been finding failed electronic components that 
have Lucas embossed on them. I take them out and find a replacement 
from any other manufacturer. If, by chance, I run across one that 
still functions I remove it, hit it with a hammer and then find a 
replacement. Why would anyone buy anything with that name on it. 
Stupid! The two my not be related but there is something to a name.
>  
> Chris
> 6301
> 
> Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Lucas AND "some other motor honey"?
> 
> I like the Lucas stuff, and use it in some
> applications. But it does make the oil THICKER. 
> Then, you went and added yet another "honey"? even
> THICKER.
> 
> More is not better.
> 
> Why not put some molasses in there too? Heck, go for
> concrete.
> 
> --- Videobob Moseley wrote:
> 
> 
> > I also added a bottle of Lucus and some other motor
> > honey I bought
> > at a car show... tou know the stuff where they show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> All your favorites on one personal page  Try My Yahoo!
> http://my.yahoo.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please 
address:
> moderators_at_dml_d...
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 05:16:09 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


And if you do things without measuring the results, you have no
idea what you've got.

I don't trust the seat of anybody's pants...

What I am saying is that engines, brakes, transmissions, coolant 
systems etc. are all designed as a system by experienced automotive
engineers with access to tools that can conclusively show the impacts
of a change to any part of the system.  Replacing bits and pieces 
with aftermarket parts that were not specifically designed or tested 
with the DeLorean with the intent of improving performance based on 
the component manufacturer's claim is a gamble.

The Bosch +4 plug is a perfect example.  They don't improve 
performance in every case.  In fact, they can reduce performance as 
we have found for the Lotus 9xx engines.  The shape of the 
combustion chamber, the placement of the plug, and the 
characteristics of the spark make for less complete combustion
than with the original equipment plugs.  

Mucking around with brakes and suspension is particularly
risky if you don't understand the dynamics of the system.
Increasing front brake capacity without adjusting the rear
brake bias can make the car unstable under braking.  This
increases the liklihood of locking up the front brakes.  Putting
large diameter, low profile tires, lowering suspensions, 
changing wheel offsets can have an adverse effect on handling.
This is why a number of major insurance companies are refusing
to honor claims for modified import cars.

I'm not saying that all aftermarket parts are snake oil.  There are 
a lot of well designed systems that are built for specific applications
that work quite well.  Often these systems are engineered with 
the participation of the original manufacturer and are typically done 
for markets that are much much larger than the DeLorean.  Expecting 
those same parts to bolt on to the DeLorean and make the same improvments
is a stretch.

--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>: -------------- 


> 
> 
> Hey Guy's help me out here, 
> So, What yall are saying is that when new products come out there will be no 
> improvement in performance and efficiency because it wasn't available 24 
> years ago for them to evaluate when they designed the car / engine. 
> Then all the claims that Bosch, MSD, Mallory, K & N not counting all the 
> other the 100's of companies that have the engineering money are wrong. 
> For example, Bosch in the platinum + 4 plugs. They have poured Millions into 
> design and research and state the +4 is the Best plug. MSD again have poured 
> millions and have developed a multi million dollar industry in improved 
> ignition performance products. 
> And K & N took 50 year old technology and improved the air filter from being 
> big and bulky to compact and spray on the oil. Maybe if spray oil was 
> invented 50 years ago the old oil bath filter would have never been made. 
> If what your are saying is true, then why are engineering departments all 
> over the world trying to build a better mouse trap and always trying to 
> improve the existing ones. 
> Sorry, I don't understand: I just know That if you keep on doing what your 
> doing then you keep on getting what you got. 
> John Hervey 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 05:22:11 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


Yup - I'd believe that scene.  Just like every other scene in the movie
was so true to life...

--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>: -------------- 


> 
> 
> Put in a copy of BTTF 1, just after Marty goes back in time and leaves 
> Peabody's farm 
> he is driving down an old country road and then slamms the brakes. 
> The cars slides on the front wheels and then jerks to the left hard. 
> 
> There is your DeLorean braking system. 
> Of course, those were a set of Goodyear NCT's but the also on bone dry 
> asphalt. 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 23
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 05:24:28 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: RE: Re: DeLo's In Year 'Round Use


Any engine will run like the one in the infomercial for 15 or 20 minutes
with no load.  

--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>: -------------- 


> 
> 
> ...cause that's what the book says. 
> That's what DMCH says, and what other vendors have said.... 
> to use 20/50 in temps over 14 degrees F. 
> 
> Next time I change it I will try some thinnner stuff. 
> I hate to dump $35 worth of new oil. 
> I also added a bottle of Lucus and some other motor honey I bought 
> at a car show... tou know the stuff where they show an engine running with 
> no oil, 
> no water and no oil pan? 
> This guy had an engine running like this and selling this oil additive and I 
> bit the hook. 
> Maybe it works, maybe not. 
> 
> Hey, I also have a lot of Ron Popeil's stuff to. 
> Just set it, and forget it. 
> - VB 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 24
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:11:05 -0800
From: "Darkstar" <darkstarmedia_at_dml_comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Upgrading the Air Filter


I work in an auto parts store and have talked to a Bosch guy about that and
he mentioned that other factors come into it.  one of the major things he
mentioned was that when a spark goes to one electrode it heats the electrode
increasing resistance enough to jump to another and so the pattern moves
around quite a bit.  He also mentioned that the way they set the electrodes
they are even enough that the distance difference is negligible and almost
impossible to measure.

Darkstar

-----Original Message-----
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com [mailto:Soma576_at_dml_aol.com]
Sent: December 3, 2004 6:35 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Upgrading the Air Filter




In a message dated 12/3/04 12:15:52 PM Central Standard Time,
john_at_dml_specialtauto.com writes:


> For example, Bosch in the platinum + 4 plugs. They have poured Millions
into
> design and research and state the +4 is the Best plug. MSD again have
poured
> millions and have developed a multi million dollar industry in improved
> ignition performance products.
>

One thing I've wondered about +4 Plugs - it seems to me that all 4 ground
wires/electrodes cannot be precisely the same distance from the center
electrode.
 Since the spark is going to jump the quickest way it can, only one ground
wire will cause the spark for combustion (the closest one).  How is that any
better than a single-wire plug (besides being more profitable for Bosch)?
Sorry
for the lack of DeLorean-specific content.

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
Yahoo! Groups Links














________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 06:26:41 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: DeLorean efficiency



Debates, and comparisons can, and will rage on for eternity. But no
matter what, the thing that I have been most pleased with has been my
car's reliability. For several years, the DeLorean was my ONLY car.
And it has seen me thru some rough times, as well as many more happy ones.

Sure I could nitpick certain things here and there. But what has
really counted for me has been that my car has remained on the road.
Only once have I ever had a failure on my car due to an inherent
engineering problem (shift pivot bolt). Otherwise, regular maintenace
has been the winning formula to longevity. And it how many miles that
I rack up that count to me. :)

Could I ask for anything more? Sure. Intergrated cupholders. My
passengers just aren't cutting it.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------