From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2389
Date: Monday, December 27, 2004 1:29 PM


There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. RE: ADMIN - Note from the Moderators
From: "timnagin" <timnagin_at_dml_mindspring.com>

2. Re: My highly modified DMC-12
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>

3. VH1 "I Love '81"
From: toscano2_at_dml_ix.netcom.com

4. Headlight switch
From: "Roland Smith" <roland_at_dml_dnai.com>

5. Re: Replacing thermo time switch.
From: "Adam 16683" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>

6. Re: United We Stand Car
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com

7. AW: Re: Fuel pressure and depressing the air metering plate
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>

8. Re: Frequency valve buzzing when key in "ON" position?
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

9. DeLoreans in Australia
From: "Rick" <rhaslewood_at_dml_optusnet.com.au>

10. Re: Tachometer wire repair?
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

11. Re: Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II
From: "bjmccool" <bjmccool_at_dml_comcast.net>

12. Tachometer Flicker
From: "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com>

13. Re: VH1 "I Love '81"
From: "ardont" <tamir_at_dml_entermyworld.com>

14. Flickering Tach
From: "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com>

15. Re: VH1 "I Love '81"
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>

16. Re: Fuel pressure and depressing the air metering plate
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Re: Flickering Tach
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

18. Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

19. Re: Replacing thermo time switch.
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:48:59 -0500
From: "timnagin" <timnagin_at_dml_mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: ADMIN - Note from the Moderators


Dave,

Since you asked, please see below.


<snip>
>MODERATING - The feel we're striving for is that of a bunch of folks
sitting
>around the garage/living room discussing DeLoreans. This is not intended to
>be the town square.  If someone shows up and kicks over the beer and calls
>our car ugly, they may be asked to leave.
><snip>


I think there is a very long way to go in achieving this "feel".  So, should
I now ask you to leave?  You called my car ugly.


<snip>
>The moderators strive to do the best job they can and are always open to
>ways in which they can further improve.
<snip>


Ok, here are a few suggestions.

1) Don't play favorites.  Period.
2) Stick by the terms the moderators have set, and never deviate.
3) I think moderator term limits would go a long way in keeping the DML
fresh, and what it should be.  This will also keep some of the moderators
from developing that dreaded God complex.  Please note that this does not
apply to all moderators.

Greg







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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:12:42 -0000
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: My highly modified DMC-12



At least you can use photoshop to remove those mods before you have 
it smogged next time. :)


Joe OBrien










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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 23:34:46 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: toscano2_at_dml_ix.netcom.com
Subject: VH1 "I Love '81"


Just saw the portion of VH1's program "I Love '81" on the DMC. They showed a very interesting shot of one of the prototypes where one half of the car is "updated" and the other half had not been tweaked yet (like the photo in SSI, not sure of page # since I am not home right now), sliding window still in place. Anyone see the show and know where they got that footage? It looked like it was taken from a car show. 

They showed a montage of images and did not mention that that particular snippet was NOT the production car. 

Segment ended with typical general public attitude that "John DeLorean loved cocaine" with absolutely no mention of his acquittal on the charges. 





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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 21:12:55 -0800
From: "Roland Smith" <roland_at_dml_dnai.com>
Subject: Headlight switch


Thank you to all who responded to my inquiry about the headlight switch.

I will take the responses to my mechanic to have provision made for a relay
to protect the switch.

Best regards,
Roland Smith
Oakland, California
Vin# 6667







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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 06:14:42 -0000
From: "Adam 16683" <acprice1_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Replacing thermo time switch.



My car is having severe trouble starting in cold weather. It 
eventually starts but I have to crank it FOREVER. It also idles bad 
in cold weather, and if I dont let it warm up, it will almost stall  
when i try to drive it. After warming up it runs and restarts like a 
champ.

Yeah its probably not the thermo-time, but its the least expensive 
part of the "cold weather" circuit so I thought I'd give it a try. 

thanks! 

adam (at work on Xmas)
> 
> First question: Why do you need to replace the Thermo Time Switch?
> What troubleshooting has lead you to this? I only ask, in the 
interest
> of saving you money, by avoiding unessisary replacement of parts.
a snow day for work!








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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:28:51 -0000
From: tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com
Subject: Re: United We Stand Car



Josh - If you're referring to a DeLorean with a wild American flag 
motif that completely covered the car, that was my car, "Winged1".  
I created and applied those decorations shortly after the terrorist 
attacks in New York, etc.  I guess that I was trying to express my 
feelings after the attack.  I left the decorations in place for 
about 7 months, but then removed them when they started to show 
some "wear and tear" from exposure to all kinds of weather, 
cleaning, etc.  The car was returned to a stock appearance, and has 
remained that way except for the occasional club rally that called 
for other types of decorations.  The car resides in Issaquah, 
Washington.  It was a blast driving a unique car with such a 
striking exterior.  The stories that I could tell of public 
reactions to it ... 

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248 "Winged1"
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.delorean-parts.com

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Nun Yah" <joshp1986_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I was wondering what happened to the "United We Stand" car? Where 
> does the car reside? 
>   -Josh








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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:46:50 +0100
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>
Subject: AW: Re: Fuel pressure and depressing the air metering plate


David - I don't think so !

the lambda relay is powered from the RPM-relay.
When the engine is not running - the frequency valve is quiet.

What he hears probably is the idle speed motor.

Elvis



The Lambda system, including the frequency valve, is powered when the
key is on no matter if the motor is running or not. 
(snip)
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757







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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:48:02 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: Frequency valve buzzing when key in "ON" position?



Another quirk of the system is that if you turn the ignition on (not 
start the car) with the throttle floored, the frequency valve will 
buzz continuously. I discovered this effect on a car with a bad 
(stuck) full-throttle microswitch. 

Dave S


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> 
> Matt Spittle wrote:
> 
> > 
> >
> >1.  Is the frequency valve supposed to buzz when the key is in 
> >the "ON" position? (engine not running)
> >  
> Not continuously, but a quirk of the K-Jet system means the RPM 
relay 
> (which powers both fuel pump and frequency valve) often gets fooled 
into 
> "seeing" ain ignition signal when you first turn the key. It should 
> switch off after a second or so. If it doesn't then you may have a 
> faulty rpm relay.








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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:52:48 -0000
From: "Rick" <rhaslewood_at_dml_optusnet.com.au>
Subject: DeLoreans in Australia



G'day everyone,

Just letting you know the old DeLorean Australia website is back 
online and at a new address : 

http://www.zeta.org.au/~lanceh . 

There's been a few new DeLoreans arrive in Australia over the last 
couple of years, and lately the car has received some attention from 
the motoring press when author Matthew Reilly bought one at auction 
in Melbourne recently. So all in all DeLoreans are still going strong 
in Australia :-)

Cheers, and Happy New Year,

Rick Haslewood








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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:29:20 -0000
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Tachometer wire repair?


Are we talking about the same thing?  This is the part that I'm 
referring to from DMCH's website:

Part #102688 - WIRE, TACHOMETER 

Matt
#1604
--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "cruznmd" <racuti1_at_dml_d...> wrote:
> 
> 
> If I understand you correctly, the wire you're referrencing is not 
> the "tach wire". It is the pick-up coil wire. This wire sends 
pulses 
> to the ignition ECU which converts and amplifies these signals to 
> control the coil. As you have figured out, if that wire, or the 
pick-
> up coil fails, you're DIW.
> 
> Just FYI: The "tach wire" is a white/slate wire that ties in to 
> about 3 other white/slate wires in the fuse/relay compartment.





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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 11:10:16 -0600
From: "bjmccool" <bjmccool_at_dml_comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II


I'm wondering if MergerNetwork is able to verify their postings. Can just 
anybody post up a business opportunity without any type of verification? 
Assuming this is legitimate, is John Delorean involved? This sounds very 
similar to his most recent plans when the DMC-2 site was up and still going. 
A V-12 is possible, but 2000hp??? Even the W-16 Bugatti Veyron with 4 turbo 
chargers only creates 1001hp. Going from this logic, you would need a WW-32 
engine with 8 turbochargers to create 2002hp. I would examine the engine 
technology very closely before coming up with any investment.
As far as price, even the Mclaren F1 was only $1,000,000, and they only 
produced 100 cars. You could argue that at $1.5 million the clientele 
wouldn't be very concerned with price. Mclaren did have a racing heritage to 
back up it's reputation. For $1.5 million, it had better beat the pants off 
a Mclaren.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "spaceace3113" <spaceace3113_at_dml_yahoo.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 4:00 PM
Subject: [DML] Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II
>
> WOW, is this new activity????





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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:06:26 -0000
From: "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Tachometer Flicker



I have uploaded, to the file section, a movie showing my problem with 
a flickering tachometer. (It's a big file.)  Has anyone experienced 
this before?  Anyone have the cure?

Thank you and happy holidays, 

Dē & 6530








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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:49:43 -0000
From: "ardont" <tamir_at_dml_entermyworld.com>
Subject: Re: VH1 "I Love '81"



A lot of the footage they used in that show was from my Eurofest 
Video I sent them.  More info. on that car can be found on my web-
site at www.entermyworld.com

Regards,
Tamir


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, toscano2_at_dml_i... wrote:
> 
> Just saw the portion of VH1's program "I Love '81" on the DMC. 
They showed a very interesting shot of one of the prototypes where 
one half of the car is "updated" and the other half had not been 
tweaked yet (like the photo in SSI, not sure of page # since I am 
not home right now), sliding window still in place. Anyone see the 
show and know where they got that footage? It looked like it was 
taken from a car show. 
> 
> They showed a montage of images and did not mention that that 
particular snippet was NOT the production car. 
> 
> Segment ended with typical general public attitude that "John 
DeLorean loved cocaine" with absolutely no mention of his acquittal 
on the charges.








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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:52:34 -0000
From: "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Flickering Tach



I forgot to mention that a standard tach connected to the coil 
primary also exhibits this flicker...

Dē& 6530








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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:07:32 -0000
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
Subject: Re: VH1 "I Love '81"



On a similar note, I saw part of a segment of a VH1 show on Friday
that was called 101 Memorable Moments or something like it.  I was
a bit distracted since my 4 nephews were visiting, so I did not get
the exact details, but I think it was moment 49 or 47 or similar.

The memorable moment was the Back to the Future premiere in 1985,
which mentioned a few of the BTTF actors and the Delorean car star,
all in a very positive manner.  The segment was only a few minutes
but at least there was no cocaine references during that segment.

In case you want to look for the show and when it will be replayed,
it was aired this past Friday during the 6pm hour, Central Time.

Later,
Rich W.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, toscano2_at_dml_i... wrote:
> 
> Just saw the portion of VH1's program "I Love '81" on the DMC. 
>
> snip <
> 
> Segment ended with typical general public attitude that "John 
DeLorean loved cocaine" with absolutely no mention of his acquittal on 
the charges.








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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:12:01 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure and depressing the air metering plate



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_g...>
wrote:
> 
> David - I don't think so !
> 
> the lambda relay is powered from the RPM-relay.
> When the engine is not running - the frequency valve is quiet.
> 
> What he hears probably is the idle speed motor.
> 
> Elvis


That's true. I'm sure David knows this because most of his
posts are accurate but it does brings up several important points.
When a customer bring his car into the shop it is vital the tech
listen to his complaint but also take it with a large grain of salt.
The same goes here. It's very possible the individual asking for help
is offering mistaken conclusions. It's wrong to assume his comments
are accurate or that he knows what he is talking about (even if he
does). After all it's why he came searching for assistance in the
first place. It's also why people seeking help should mainly state
symptoms and not offer too much in the way of their own diagnosis.
This is a common problem and one that any good mechanic or
diagnostician in any repair industry is well aware of.

Another point is the advice offered in return should be based on
research if needed. In his desire to help David probably pulled his
answer off the top of his head and didn't bother to verify it even
though he likely knows better. This is another common mistake made by
techs. Often it bites them during dignosis of a fault more than it
does anyone else. I'm sure we've all been there. I'm often amused by
the steady stream of misinformation offered on this list but it's no
laughing matter for those left bewildered by conflicitng answers. I
feel much of the bad information is a result of the problem above. It
would serve everyone better if they took a moment to verify what
whey're providing is indeed accurate. It only takes a moment to check
the diagram or open the service manual. It goes for those seeking help
also. The more accuarte information you provide the more accurate will
be the diagnosis and the sooner you can be help. 

Speaking of the diagram it has many errors. Most are labeling and wire
color errors. For example every car I've installed window roll up
modules on I've found the window switch wiring colors to be
transposed. Other diagram errors are real wiring issues and I have yet
to see a 100% corrected diagram from any source.

By the way, the individual who stated the frequency valve will run
with the WOT switch closed or stuck is incorrect. That shouldn't
happen because (as was pointed out) the Lambda system is not powered
when the engine isn't running. A car that does this has an electrcial
problem or the wiring has been modified. On the other hand stuck WOT
switches have been common on Deloreans I've serviced. This can happen
if the mounting screws are overtorgued. One symptom of a stuck WOT
switch is an oscillating cold idle due to the interaction of the rich
mixture and the idle speed control system. Since the Lambda cold
thermo-coolant switch is paralled with the WOT switch and uses the
same input it too needs to be considered when dealing with cold idle
issues.

Finally I'd like to remind each of you we're all here because of a
common interest and should treat each other with respect and courtesy.
Between the bad information, pissing contests and yes, what I also see
as somewhat deplorable and biased moderation, I wonder how many owners
simply lurk or go elsewhere. Unless things improve in all these areas
I plan on doing the same myself. I came to offer my experience and
expertise but I have no need to remain as haven't found much of value
here. With modesty I feel it won't be my loss.

Greg








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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:58:35 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Flickering Tach



Sounds like you just verified  the problem is not the Tach. Have you 
checked fuse 1 for good contact? Also, be sure the ground wire to 
the ECU is in place and making proper connection. When is the last 
time you did a tune-up? A faulty or used up Dist cap and/or rotor 
could be at fault. Plug wires?

Harold McElraft - 3354


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention that a standard tach connected to the coil 
> primary also exhibits this flicker...
> 
> Dē& 6530








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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 05:18:13 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay



Actuallly it is not quite that simple. Yes, all these engine systems
are controlled by the RPM relay. It is *supposed* to prevent these
systems from continuiously operating if the ignition key is on and the
motor is not running. In practice I have seen cars where it does not
quite work this way. For instance when first powering up the RPM relay
is supposed to pulse so the fuel pump can run enough to provide some
fuel pressure to get the motor started. In many cases it stays powered
a lot longer than a "pulse". BTW the idle motor system is also
controled by the RPM relay so it should go quiet too along with the
frequency valve. Reference D:05:03. I think one of the points to be
made here is when working on old cars (including Deloreans) we
(mechanics and technicians) start to assume that many things are
hooked up and working the way they are supposed to except for that one
problem that the owner/driver has identified. We have to start
somewhere and assume that SOMETHING is correct or we might never get
anything done. The problem with that is that from past experience you
really can't trust everything, I have seen things like the wrong
relays in the wrong places, wrong fuses, things unplugged, jury-rigged
wiring, (especilly in the fuel pump circuit and cooling circuit). When
giving advice by remote control you are in an even worse position.
>From my many years of experience I could spot something that would be
obvious to me but someone else may never see but I can't see it
because I am not there. There was one car that wouldn't start and run
properly. It finally was mentioned that he had the hot-start relay. As
soon as he pulled it the car ran fine. Now, in a quick visual
inspection I may have spotted that and fixed it in a minute. Instead
we guessed at many things and sent the poor guy down a lot of blind
alleys. We all do the best we can. I am not in this for money but to
only help get as many Deloreans running as good as possible. I am not
perfect but I do the best I can. I appreciate that many people read my
posts and think I am helping them. Anyway the short answer is that the
frequency valve will buzz if the motor is not running but after a
short while (if the RPM relay is working correctly) it should stop
buzzing and the idle motor should be quiet. Same goes for the fuel
pump. The time does vary a lot. Another quick point to be made. The
origional RPM relay has a failure rate. It isn't high but it is
significant. Every owner should be aware of this and know how to
jumper it so the car can be driven home. It is not safe to drive
continuosly with a jumpered RPM relay but it is OK to do in an
emergency for a limited time. You must be very aware that the key is
OFF if the motor is not running. In my defense I do not research every
question and sometimes I do give answers "off the top of my head".
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_g...>
> wrote:
> > 
> > David - I don't think so !
> > 
> > the lambda relay is powered from the RPM-relay.
> > When the engine is not running - the frequency valve is quiet.
> > 
> > What he hears probably is the idle speed motor.
> > 
> 








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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 04:38:58 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Replacing thermo time switch.



Replacing the cheapest part may sound like a good idea until you
realize that you may be replacing perfectly good parts. The only
"correct" way to do this is to troubleshoot and diagnose the problem
even if it means replacing a more expensive part (the bad one). By
"shotgunning" the repair and replacing what is easy or cheap will, in
the long run, turn out to be the MOST expensive way to repair the
problem. For starters see if there is power on the cold start valve
when the motor is cold and cranking. A very easy way to start and it
will either eliminate many areas and parts or it will lead you right
to the problem. You most likely have several problems. One may be in
the cold start valve circuit and the other in the control pressure
circuit. The cold start valve gets the engine running, the control
pressure regulater aka warm-up regulater keeps the motor running while
it warms up. You can also have vacuum leaks, they have a greater
affect on the motor when cold and depending on where they are may have
no effect on a warmed up motor. This could also be a sign that it is
time for a tune-up. Worn plugs, bad wires, dirty air filter all make
it harder to start a cold motor. 
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Adam 16683" <acprice1_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> My car is having severe trouble starting in cold weather. It 
> eventually starts but I have to crank it FOREVER. It also idles bad 
> in cold weather, and if I dont let it warm up, it will almost stall  
> when i try to drive it. After warming up it runs and restarts like a 
> 








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