From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2390
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 6:59 PM


There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. AW: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>

2. Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>

3. RE: Re: VH1 "I Love '81"
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

4. Re: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: Rod Dillman <rhdillman_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II
From: "Namlemez" <thecal_at_dml_optonline.net>

6. Re: Tachometer Flicker
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>

7. RE: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

8. Re: Lost all hope
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>

9. RE: Re: Flickering Tach
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

10. Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>

11. Respect and Courtesy.
From: "malevy_nj" <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

12. Advice-Was Fuel Pressure
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

13. Re: VH1's 100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments (60-41)
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>

14. Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

15. Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

16. Re: Respect and Courtesy.
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. RE: Re: VH1's 100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments (60-41)
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

18. Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

19. Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?
From: "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>

20. Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

21. Re: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>

22. Re: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

23. In the Name of World Peace
From: mrvideosawyer_at_dml_netscape.net

24. Respect and Courtesy.
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

25. RE: Respect and Courtesy.
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>





Message: 1
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:00:25 +0100
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>
Subject: AW: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay


[MODERATOR NOTE:  Let's be nice to each other here.  Please keep the discussion civilized, not accusatory.  -moderator Mike Substelny]

David,
you do help people a lot with your answers and the experience you have.
I am sure I profitted from it in the past, too.

This fact, that people trust you blind makes it even worse that
you don't even use the schematic to take a quick look on it.

How many people out there now think that their idle speed motor
should stop making that buzzing sound after a few seconds ?
They are totally mislead because it is supposed to buzz as long as
the key is inserted and turned to the position where all the bulbs 
in the dash are on. The green wire to the idle ECU is fed by the AUX
relay and fuse #1 - it's not even connected to the RPM relay !

On another note - I played with many RPM relays so far and there are 
different ones out there. While it is the regular case, that the pump 
is not activated when you turn the key, there are some out there which
do that (while I think is a good idea). Some may do it because of a 
spike that triggers it, but I think (can't prove it because I didn't
redraw the schematic of all of them) most of them do it always because
they are supposed to do it and built like that. At least I know that the 
Volvo or Renault replacement part does it for sure.

You are absolutely right when you say that is it extra hard to find a 
problem by remote. It is very often impossible without seeing the car
to diagnose things like you said. This makes it even more important
that then at least one who trys to help doesn't give wrong advices
because he doesn't even take a quick look at the schematic.

Please go on with your good work but verify it first, please.

Elvis



Actuallly it is not quite that simple. Yes, all these engine systems
are controlled by the RPM relay. It is *supposed* to prevent these
systems from continuiously operating if the ignition key is on and the
motor is not running. In practice I have seen cars where it does not
quite work this way. For instance when first powering up the RPM relay
is supposed to pulse so the fuel pump can run enough to provide some
fuel pressure to get the motor started. In many cases it stays powered
a lot longer than a "pulse". BTW the idle motor system is also
controled by the RPM relay so it should go quiet too along with the
frequency valve. Reference D:05:03. I think one of the points to be
made here is when working on old cars (including Deloreans) we
(mechanics and technicians) start to assume that many things are
hooked up and working the way they are supposed to except for that one
problem that the owner/driver has identified. We have to start
somewhere and assume that SOMETHING is correct or we might never get
anything done. The problem with that is that from past experience you
really can't trust everything, I have seen things like the wrong
relays in the wrong places, wrong fuses, things unplugged, jury-rigged
wiring, (especilly in the fuel pump circuit and cooling circuit). When
giving advice by remote control you are in an even worse position.
>From my many years of experience I could spot something that would be
obvious to me but someone else may never see but I can't see it
because I am not there. There was one car that wouldn't start and run
properly. It finally was mentioned that he had the hot-start relay. As
soon as he pulled it the car ran fine. Now, in a quick visual
inspection I may have spotted that and fixed it in a minute. Instead
we guessed at many things and sent the poor guy down a lot of blind
alleys. We all do the best we can. I am not in this for money but to
only help get as many Deloreans running as good as possible. I am not
perfect but I do the best I can. I appreciate that many people read my
posts and think I am helping them. Anyway the short answer is that the
frequency valve will buzz if the motor is not running but after a
short while (if the RPM relay is working correctly) it should stop
buzzing and the idle motor should be quiet. Same goes for the fuel
pump. The time does vary a lot. Another quick point to be made. The
origional RPM relay has a failure rate. It isn't high but it is
significant. Every owner should be aware of this and know how to
jumper it so the car can be driven home. It is not safe to drive
continuosly with a jumpered RPM relay but it is OK to do in an
emergency for a limited time. You must be very aware that the key is
OFF if the motor is not running. In my defense I do not research every
question and sometimes I do give answers "off the top of my head".
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:34:20 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "bjmccool" <bjmccool_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if MergerNetwork is able to verify their postings. Can
just 
> anybody post up a business opportunity without any type of
verification? 
> Assuming this is legitimate, is John Delorean involved? This sounds
very 
> similar to his most recent plans when the DMC-2 site was up and
still going. 
> A V-12 is possible, but 2000hp??? Even the W-16 Bugatti Veyron with
4 turbo 
> chargers only creates 1001hp. Going from this logic, you would need
a WW-32 
> engine with 8 turbochargers to create 2002hp.
<SNIP>

Aside from what technology you put into a powerplant, your fuel also
has ALLOT to do with what kind of power you can extract from it. For
example, going from one extreme to another, NHRA "Top Fuel" dragsters
can kick out about 8,000 bhp or so. And aside from the dual ignition
systems, and the supercharger, they also run nitromethane. Even on
something more scaled down, nitromethane is used can be used in
gasoline powered R/C cars, that can hit like 40mph or so. If you
wanted to play around with fuels, you could get practicly any results
you want out of an engine. Be it gasoline, diesel, alcohol, or CH3NO2.

As for this "Business Offering", I seriously doubt that JZD is
involved. It's just too quiet for his style. Be it a flash website, or
even a booth at a convention somewhere, the man always has his ideas
presented out with allot of flair. This just isn't his style. He
doesn't just try to use #'s to sell something, he always wrapps his
prospectus' up with the bow of his own visions. When the hell ever has
JZD ever pitched an idea _at_dml_ GM, or on his own that didn't include his
vision of the project for the future?

More importantly, whomever posted this ad, mispelled John De Lorean's
name.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 04:55:46 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re: VH1 "I Love '81"


You can view this as a streaming video in the MEDIA section of my website:
http://www.dfwdmc.com

I will be posting some new video that talks about John Z's "Banshee" which 
later became
known as the "FIREBIRD".
- VB

>From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Re: VH1 "I Love '81"
>Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:07:32 -0000
>
>
>
>
>On a similar note, I saw part of a segment of a VH1 show on Friday
>that was called 101 Memorable Moments or something like it.  I was
>a bit distracted since my 4 nephews were visiting, so I did not get
>the exact details, but I think it was moment 49 or 47 or similar.
>
>The memorable moment was the Back to the Future premiere in 1985,
>which mentioned a few of the BTTF actors and the Delorean car star,
>all in a very positive manner.  The segment was only a few minutes
>but at least there was no cocaine references during that segment.
>
>In case you want to look for the show and when it will be replayed,
>it was aired this past Friday during the 6pm hour, Central Time.
>
>Later,
>Rich W.
>
>
>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, toscano2_at_dml_i... wrote:
> >
> > Just saw the portion of VH1's program "I Love '81" on the DMC.
> >
> > snip <
> >
> > Segment ended with typical general public attitude that "John
>DeLorean loved cocaine" with absolutely no mention of his acquittal on
>the charges.





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 05:02:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Rod Dillman <rhdillman_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay


David, I have always been impressed by the "top of your head" advice you give to those of us who need assistance and who are trying to gain a better knowledge of our cars in order to repair them ourselves or who pass on the information to our service tech. I frequently print off postings and file them when the in formation is likely to help me on a future project or repair. Without the free advice on the DML and the free calls to our vendors and service facitities DeLorean ownership would be much more challenging and for some unappealing. I appreciate those such as yourself who share experience and knowledge with those of us who seek to be better informed about our cars. Rod 10921

David Teitelbaum <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net> wrote:


Actuallly it is not quite that simple. Yes, all these engine systems
are controlled by the RPM relay. It is *supposed* to prevent these
systems from continuiously operating if the ignition key is on and the
motor is not running. In practice I have seen cars where it does not
quite work this way. For instance when first powering up the RPM relay
is supposed to pulse so the fuel pump can run enough to provide some
fuel pressure to get the motor started. In many cases it stays powered
a lot longer than a "pulse". BTW the idle motor system is also
controled by the RPM relay so it should go quiet too along with the
frequency valve. Reference D:05:03. I think one of the points to be
made here is when working on old cars (including Deloreans) we
(mechanics and technicians) start to assume that many things are
hooked up and working the way they are supposed to except for that one
problem that the owner/driver has identified. We have to start
somewhere and assume that SOMETHING is correct or we might never get
anything done. The problem with that is that from past experience you
really can't trust everything, I have seen things like the wrong
relays in the wrong places, wrong fuses, things unplugged, jury-rigged
wiring, (especilly in the fuel pump circuit and cooling circuit). When
giving advice by remote control you are in an even worse position.
>From my many years of experience I could spot something that would be
obvious to me but someone else may never see but I can't see it
because I am not there. There was one car that wouldn't start and run
properly. It finally was mentioned that he had the hot-start relay. As
soon as he pulled it the car ran fine. Now, in a quick visual
inspection I may have spotted that and fixed it in a minute. Instead
we guessed at many things and sent the poor guy down a lot of blind
alleys. We all do the best we can. I am not in this for money but to
only help get as many Deloreans running as good as possible. I am not
perfect but I do the best I can. I appreciate that many people read my
posts and think I am helping them. Anyway the short answer is that the
frequency valve will buzz if the motor is not running but after a
short while (if the RPM relay is working correctly) it should stop
buzzing and the idle motor should be quiet. Same goes for the fuel
pump. The time does vary a lot. Another quick point to be made. The
origional RPM relay has a failure rate. It isn't high but it is
significant. Every owner should be aware of this and know how to
jumper it so the car can be driven home. It is not safe to drive
continuosly with a jumpered RPM relay but it is OK to do in an
emergency for a limited time. You must be very aware that the key is
OFF if the motor is not running. In my defense I do not research every
question and sometimes I do give answers "off the top of my head".
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Elvis Nocita" 
> wrote:
> > 
> > David - I don't think so !
> > 
> > the lambda relay is powered from the RPM-relay.
> > When the engine is not running - the frequency valve is quiet.
> > 
> > What he hears probably is the idle speed motor.
> > 
> 








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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:19:49 -0000
From: "Namlemez" <thecal_at_dml_optonline.net>
Subject: Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II



Yeah, that sounds highly suspicious.  Check out this article about the
Bugatti and all the hoops they had to jump through.  2000hp sounds
like a scam :)

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/bugatti.htm

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "bjmccool" <bjmccool_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if MergerNetwork is able to verify their postings. Can
just 
> anybody post up a business opportunity without any type of
verification? 
> Assuming this is legitimate, is John Delorean involved? This sounds
very 
> similar to his most recent plans when the DMC-2 site was up and
still going. 
> A V-12 is possible, but 2000hp??? Even the W-16 Bugatti Veyron with
4 turbo 
> chargers only creates 1001hp. Going from this logic, you would need
a WW-32 
> engine with 8 turbochargers to create 2002hp. I would examine the
engine 
> technology very closely before coming up with any investment.
> As far as price, even the Mclaren F1 was only $1,000,000, and they only 
> produced 100 cars. You could argue that at $1.5 million the clientele 
> wouldn't be very concerned with price. Mclaren did have a racing
heritage to 
> back up it's reputation. For $1.5 million, it had better beat the
pants off 
> a Mclaren.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "spaceace3113" <spaceace3113_at_dml_y...>
> To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 4:00 PM
> Subject: [DML] Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II
> >
> > WOW, is this new activity????








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:56:41 -0500
From: Noah <sitz_at_dml_onastick.net>
Subject: Re: Tachometer Flicker


On Sun, Dec 26, 2004 at 07:06:26PM -0000, drdhdmd wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I have uploaded, to the file section, a movie showing my problem with 
> a flickering tachometer. (It's a big file.)  Has anyone experienced 
> this before?  Anyone have the cure?

Yeah, I had this happen on mine; turned out to be a bad ground. There's
a ground wire that runs to a point near the passenger-side TAB, and mine
wasn't tight.  Hope this helps.

--n
#2867





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:37:56 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay


David,

I agree with your comments concerning "giving advice by remote control".

I also wanted to make one correction in your analysis of the operation of
the idle speed motor.

You said: "BTW the idle motor system is also controlled by the RPM relay so
it should go quiet too along with the frequency valve. Reference D:05:03."

In actuality the idle speed motor receives voltage from fuse#1. Therefore it
will operate with the RPM relay removed. 

Happy Holiday's
  

-----Original Message-----
From: David Teitelbaum [mailto:jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net] 
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 12:18 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay




Actuallly it is not quite that simple. Yes, all these engine systems are
controlled by the RPM relay. It is *supposed* to prevent these systems from
continuiously operating if the ignition key is on and the motor is not
running. In practice I have seen cars where it does not quite work this way.
For instance when first powering up the RPM relay is supposed to pulse so
the fuel pump can run enough to provide some fuel pressure to get the motor
started. In many cases it stays powered a lot longer than a "pulse". BTW the
idle motor system is also controled by the RPM relay so it should go quiet
too along with the frequency valve. Reference D:05:03. I think one of the
points to be made here is when working on old cars (including Deloreans) we
(mechanics and technicians) start to assume that many things are hooked up
and working the way they are supposed to except for that one problem that
the owner/driver has identified. We have to start somewhere and assume that
SOMETHING is correct or we might never get anything done. The problem with
that is that from past experience you really can't trust everything, I have
seen things like the wrong relays in the wrong places, wrong fuses, things
unplugged, jury-rigged wiring, (especilly in the fuel pump circuit and
cooling circuit). When giving advice by remote control you are in an even
worse position.
>From my many years of experience I could spot something that would be
obvious to me but someone else may never see but I can't see it because I am
not there. There was one car that wouldn't start and run properly. It
finally was mentioned that he had the hot-start relay. As soon as he pulled
it the car ran fine. Now, in a quick visual inspection I may have spotted
that and fixed it in a minute. Instead we guessed at many things and sent
the poor guy down a lot of blind alleys. We all do the best we can. I am not
in this for money but to only help get as many Deloreans running as good as
possible. I am not perfect but I do the best I can. I appreciate that many
people read my posts and think I am helping them. Anyway the short answer is
that the frequency valve will buzz if the motor is not running but after a
short while (if the RPM relay is working correctly) it should stop buzzing
and the idle motor should be quiet. Same goes for the fuel pump. The time
does vary a lot. Another quick point to be made. The origional RPM relay has
a failure rate. It isn't high but it is significant. Every owner should be
aware of this and know how to jumper it so the car can be driven home. It is
not safe to drive continuosly with a jumpered RPM relay but it is OK to do
in an emergency for a limited time. You must be very aware that the key is
OFF if the motor is not running. In my defense I do not research every
question and sometimes I do give answers "off the top of my head".
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 









________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:59:13 -0000
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>
Subject: Re: Lost all hope



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Tom Porter" <treehouse2000us_at_dml_y...>
wrote:
> 
> Hey Guys,

Hey Tom!

Well, I'm with Greg on this, my friend. Here is a bit of advice from
someone who has "been there, done that".

Don't spend the 10-15 grand you've saved up! Just keep saving it. I
realize the temptation to go buy a car (any car) is strong, but if you
spend all that cash on a car you're going to regret it in a few years.
Trust me on this. I assume you've got an old beater or something
you're driving now. Keep driving it. If it's shot and really needs to
be replaced, buy another $1,000 beater and just live with it for now.

Or, do what I did when I was 16: Buy a Fiero, MR-2, or other little
two seater sports car. These cars are cheap ($500 - $3,000 typically),
parts are cheap, and you'll learn to work on cars. You'll also slowly
accumulate the tools you'll need to work on your eventual DeLorean.
Without the many years of learning I did on my various sports cars, I
can tell you I would NOT be able to maintain my DeLorean. A few months
back I pulled the tranny and replaced the clutch & all hydraulics,
cost me ~$800 in parts but would have been $2000 had I paid someone
else to do it (not to mention the headaches when they screwed
something up or took shortcuts like most mechanics seem to do).

See, that's the other thing: Tools & space. You really need a garage
and a good budget for tools. I had to spend a couple hundred bucks on
a nice new jack & set of heavy duty jack stands to perform the clutch
replacement, as my old stuff wasn't up to the task. Right now I'm
diagnosing another problem and need an $80 fuel pressure test kit, and
I'll probably spend another couple hundred bucks on parts by the time
I'm done. How are you going to fix your car when it breaks down (and
it will) when you can't afford the tools or don't have space for them?
You could end up with a car that just sits and rots. The last thing
you want is your $15,000 sitting in a garage, rotting away, unable to
be used because you can't afford to fix it. Too many years of this and
your $15k DeLorean will be an $8k fixer-upper. 

> I can not afford such a car on a 13k year salary

Honest truth: You can not afford much of any car on a 13k a year
salary. Please, don't blow this cash on a car. Save it. You'll need it
some day soon. It would make a very nice down payment on a house. Or
invest it in a low-risk account, keep adding to it, and let it grow. 

Also, you're not going to make 13k a year for the rest of your life.
As your career and experience progress, so will your salary.
Eventually, you will be able to comfortably afford a DeLorean. Maybe
you'll use this money you've saved up, or maybe you'll have another
source. 

Your dream isn't dead, it's just on hold. You've been patient this
long, be patient for a few more years.

-Ryan








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:00:42 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Flickering Tach


In addition to what Harold mentioned, another cause of this condition could
be an electrical ground problem. A method to test this would be to see if
the flickering changes with voltage load. In other words is there increased
flickering as more electrical items are turned on. If this is the case than
you should check all of the system main grounds. Start with the front frame
extension ground located at the LH horn bracket, if that doesn't correct the
problem check the main frame ground at the RH trailing arm bushing bracket,
the auxiliary frame ground at the RR frame member, and the engine block
ground at the RH motor mount. There are several other ground connections
that may cause your tach flickering but the ones I named are the most
common.

Happy Holiday's,
DMC Joe   

-----Original Message-----
From: Harold McElraft [mailto:hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 6:59 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Flickering Tach




Sounds like you just verified  the problem is not the Tach. Have you checked
fuse 1 for good contact? Also, be sure the ground wire to the ECU is in
place and making proper connection. When is the last time you did a tune-up?
A faulty or used up Dist cap and/or rotor could be at fault. Plug wires?

Harold McElraft - 3354








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:14:36 -0000
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>
Subject: Re: New Sports Car - The Delorean II



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Jason Sisto" <wizard_at_dml_t...> wrote:
> 
> Can this actually be true?

No. The posting is badly written with improper use of white space and
they misspelled "business". Looks like some kid is just having fun.

-Ryan








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:01:14 -0000
From: "malevy_nj" <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Respect and Courtesy.


[MODERATOR NOTE: This message comes close to name-calling, but in my judgment it does not cross the line.  - moderator Mike Substelny]

Greg,

Do you work with or live with Gary?  I only ask because the tone of 
your posts are very similar to Gary (checksix3, AKA jetjock11) and 
you both use the same IP address (24.6.128.101).

It would not be respectful or courteous to be using a false alias.

Marc


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> Finally I'd like to remind each of you we're all here because of a
> common interest and should treat each other with respect and 
courtesy.
> Between the bad information, pissing contests and yes, what I also 
see
> as somewhat deplorable and biased moderation, I wonder how many 
owners
> simply lurk or go elsewhere. Unless things improve in all these 
areas
> I plan on doing the same myself. I came to offer my experience and
> expertise but I have no need to remain as haven't found much of 
value
> here. With modesty I feel it won't be my loss.
> 
> Greg








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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:16:57 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Advice-Was Fuel Pressure



I guess I should go out a check the actual operation of that idle
circuit. I looked at the schematic and saw that it was connected into
the RPM relay but it may not control it. I assumed (mistake) that the
idle motor circuit should be shut down along with the fuel pump and
Lambda if the motor wasn't running. I do not go out to a car and go
over the wiring (or anything else) generally when I respond to
questions. This is one of the better points of the DML. Even when
there is misinformation from any source there is usually someone that
can catch it and correct it. I never claimed to be infallable, I only
appear to be so. I accept this good-naturedly and will try harder in
the future to be more accurate. On another note I respond to questions
and offer advice but more feedback into exactly what is found out to
be the problem can help me and others fine-tune our advice and point
us better in the future. By knowing the frequency of a particular
problem and it's nature I can lead the person to the more likely
sources first. It is getting rarer and rarer to see unusual problems
and they are generally caused by something weird like wiring changes
by previous owners and such. These kinds of things are very difficult
to help with on this List. It requires some level of electrical
knowledge by the person "on the spot". Like a Doctor I have to guess
Horses when when you hear hoofbeats but sometimes IS a Zebra. In any
case I will continue to give advice, just more carefully.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> I agree with your comments concerning "giving advice by remote control".
> 









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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:43:27 -0000
From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
Subject: Re: VH1's 100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments (60-41)



No VB, this was not the show "I Love 1985" with it's BTTF clip,
this was a NEW clip, as I mentioned in my previous post.  And,
although I was distracted, I do recall seeing a Delorean Time
Machine pull up to a Red Carpet in a pre-show teaser commercial.

After seeing VB's incorrect post, I did check Yahoo TV listings
for last Friday for VH1 at 6pm Central and the name of the show
listed for that time slot was "100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments"
(moments 60 thru 41), with the BTTF clip in the upper 40's.

Maybe someone like Stephen Clark from BTTF.com has seen this or
heard about this clip.  According to the current VH1 schedule,
this episode should be replayed next Tuesday, Jan. 4 at 6pm (CT)
so maybe we will need to wait until then to know for sure.

Unfortunately, since this show is so new, there are no details
listed about this series of episodes other than it first aired
in November 2004, re-played on December 24 and is scheduled to
be aired on January 4, 2005.

Later,
Rich W.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...> 
wrote:
> 
> You can view this as a streaming video in the MEDIA section of my 
website:
>
> snip <
>
> - VB
> 
> >From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_o...>
> >
> >On a similar note, I saw part of a segment of a VH1 show on Friday
> >that was called 101 Memorable Moments or something like it.  I was
> >a bit distracted since my 4 nephews were visiting, so I did not 
get
> >the exact details, but I think it was moment 49 or 47 or similar.
> >
> >The memorable moment was the Back to the Future premiere in 1985,
> >
> > snip < <








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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:02:50 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay



-- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Rod Dillman <rhdillman_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> David, I have always been impressed by the "top of your head" advice
you give to those of us who need assistance and who are trying to gain
a better knowledge of our cars in order to repair them ourselves or
who pass on the information to our service tech. I frequently print
off postings and file them when the in formation is likely to help me
on a future project or repair.


Yes well, if you'll excuse the mild sarcasm I will admit to the value
of printing, saving for reference, or forwarding to your mechanic
information that may well be wrong. If nothing else it will certainly
help to reduce the cost of labor on your service bill :-)

I have read enough of David's posts in the archives to know his advice
is mostly sound but he and others are wrong at times for whatever
reason. I have also noticed in reading the archives incorrect
information from people who seem to be considered more knowledgable
than him. This fellow Elvis is right. While David knows the car I'd
hardly call his "top of the head" defense justified any more more than
his admitting an automatic transmission is hydrostatic a "minor
correction". That said I will be the first to admit he is an asset to
this group. 

But with all due respect to him what is the point in trying to assist
others if the information is not accurate? I believe those who offer
advice have a responsibilty to make sure it is correct. I do it if for
no better reason than because I dislike being wrong. I stand by my
comments that both the individual seeking advice and the one offering
it have a responsibility to each other, with the responder shouldering
the burden of digesting what was given him with a grain of salt.

As for what is "supposed" to happen this is why we have service
manuals and wiring diagrams. In David's defense there is little anyone
can do from a distance if something has been altered. It requires a
personal presence and knowledge beyond the ability to follow factory
documentation. In either case I'm puzzled as to why some owners make
no effort to learn beyond asking questions. In this example all the
owner had to do is study the diagram to answer his own question.
Learning how is not difficult and basic auto electrical theory is
something anyone who wants to work on cars should learn. Give a man a
fish and all that. Barring that option anyone who asks for advice or
engages in the kind of  "handholding" that goes on here should be that
much more concerned the information they are receiving is the best it
can be.

For the fellow who has "lost all hope": Ryan is right. Your situation
will change more than you could ever imagine. For example the odds of
you remaining where you live now are likely not great. You'll probably
 have a family, your income will increase and so on. Don't be so
anxious to drown in the great sea of consumer debt, the largest
obstacle to building personal wealth, over something as silly as a
car. Any person your age who tells you they did otherwise allowed
their emotions to overule their intellect. It's your money but the
odds are you'd be making a mistake and one you will likely regret in
the future. Be patient. You have an entire lifetime and your day will
come. You may even find your priorities will continue to change. Just
my two cents.

Greg
 








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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:12:46 -0000
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
In this example all the owner had to do is study the diagram to 
answer his own question.  Learning how is not difficult and basic 
auto electrical theory is something anyone who wants to work on cars 
should learn. 

So Greg,

I studied the diagram to answer my own question, and I wasn't able 
to; not even with a background in electrical engineering.  

Part of my original question was if the frequency valve was supposed 
to run while the key was in the ON position.  So I look at the 
diagram...it looks like the frequency valve is powered by the lambda 
relay, which is powered by the RPM relay.  If this all happens, then 
whether the frequency valve turns on or not is determined by pin 15 
of the ECU.  Do you have a schematic for the ECU, because it's not 
obvious to me what it does? 

Second, it's also not obvious WHY the RPM relay only should activate 
for "about a second" when the key is on the ON position.  The 
service manual clearly states that it will, but why?  What controls 
that?  If my frequency valve is buzzing and my fuel pump is running 
when I put the key in the on position for more than a second, 
perhaps this is a failed component somewhere (capacitor in the RPM 
relay?)?  Do you have a schematic for the RPM relay?  

So this is why I asked the list.  Please correct me as to where I 
should have looked if my "homework effort" was inadequate before 
posting.  

thanks,

Matt
#1604








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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:45:37 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Respect and Courtesy.



Moderator Mike, I don't see any name calling. Marc is just asking a
question and I'll be glad to give him an answer.

Well Marc, since most of my posts occured after your "Sonny" sleuthing
you'd think any intelligent person would realize you could do the same
to anyone else. That would make me pretty dumb wouldn't it? Unless I
was hoping you'd stumble upon it. Now there is a crafty idea. I could
have changed my IP at anytime to avoid your little game. What is it in
this post? See the point? Perhaps it has something to do with you
playing Marc Levy, Internet Commando and Keeper Of The Faith. Why
don't you ask Sonny?

So what is your point? I don't see the tone of my posts as being bad.
Is what I post wrong? Is it delivered in a disrespectful or
discourteous manner? Aren't I the one who suggested we all be nice?
Regardless of who I am why do you feel I'm using a false alias? Maybe
this checksix fellow was false, it's not uncommon for people to hide
their identity on the internet. Look at Sonny for example. If Sonny
didn't matter why should I? He had a hidden agenda to sell products.
What do you suppose my agenda is? To learn morals from you? I don't
sell anything Marc, I give it away free. I also respond to ID
challenges. Maybe not the way you'd like so as to bolster your ego but
I respond nevertheless. For example why didn't you ask about this by
email? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Would you feel better if I left and returned under another name? It
would take me five seconds to do so (and with a different IP) but I'd
still be the same guy, whoever you think I am. I also apologize if I
don't live up to your standards of respect and courtesy. (People who
live in glass houses and all that. Of the posts I've seen you strike
me as less than a Carnegie graduate). I thought I was doing OK but
I'll try to do better in the future. Until then take some advice: You
can't expect others to live up to your own moral standards or you'll
be sorely disappointed. Accept that as the way it is and spare me your
lectures because you'll only be wasting your breath. Try offering
something useful to the group instead, assuming you can.

Greg

By the way, are you the guy sending me hate mail? Stop.








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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:39:24 -0600
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Re: VH1's 100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments (60-41)


Oh sorry, I thought it was the same one I had....
I will try to catch it and add it to the list.
If anyone gets it (if I miss it) let me get it from you and I will pay the 
costs.
I would like to have a complete collection of media for people to see about 
the car.
I know that Tamir did this in already but I wish he would update the files 
to a better
format so the video is more clear.
I try to use the best acceptable formats I can for the best picture.
I am using Windows Media at a pretty high-res, the downloads are bigger but
I feel people would rather wait and get the video in more viewable format.
I may try to assemble a DVD of all these clips to play at the DSC2004 show
if I can manage to do it.

Thanks for the heads up Rich.
- VB

>From: "d_rex_2002" <rich_at_dml_outernet-tech.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Re: VH1's 100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments (60-41)
>Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:43:27 -0000
>
>
>
>
>No VB, this was not the show "I Love 1985" with it's BTTF clip,
>this was a NEW clip, as I mentioned in my previous post.  And,
>although I was distracted, I do recall seeing a Delorean Time
>Machine pull up to a Red Carpet in a pre-show teaser commercial.
>
>After seeing VB's incorrect post, I did check Yahoo TV listings
>for last Friday for VH1 at 6pm Central and the name of the show
>listed for that time slot was "100 Greatest Red Carpet Moments"
>(moments 60 thru 41), with the BTTF clip in the upper 40's.
>
>Maybe someone like Stephen Clark from BTTF.com has seen this or
>heard about this clip.  According to the current VH1 schedule,
>this episode should be replayed next Tuesday, Jan. 4 at 6pm (CT)
>so maybe we will need to wait until then to know for sure.
>
>Unfortunately, since this show is so new, there are no details
>listed about this series of episodes other than it first aired
>in November 2004, re-played on December 24 and is scheduled to
>be aired on January 4, 2005.
>
>Later,
>Rich W.
>
>
>--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...>
>wrote:
> >
> > You can view this as a streaming video in the MEDIA section of my
>website:

[long quote trimmed by moderator]





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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:34 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay



Just looking at a wiring diaghram is difficult for most people. When
you have relays controling relays you have to understand what controls
the relays and what each is SUPPOSED to do and why it is in there. The
wiring diaghram does not show the internal wiring of the relays. You
need to know how the circuit is supposed to operate. Studying the
system notes in the Workshop Manual can help, many things are
explained there. Most people on the list are not electrical engineers
and even if one is if he is not familiar with automotive systems in
general and Bosch systems in particular the intellegent guy would ask
questions. By asking the right question and getting a rapid response
can save someone hours of grief. I agree it takes some limited
knowledge just so a person can ask intellegent questions. Hopefully a
person trying do do his own work will invest the time and energy in at
least trying to get some basics. I would not expect everyone to become
an expert. Now you are getting to the real purpose of the DML. To
offer advice, help, and encouragment to those who are trying to keep
their cars running the best they can and enjoy them in all aspects.
Although MANY questions could be answered if the person looked in the
Workshop Manual as we all know many people never look in the
instruction manual for ANYTHING. Real men NEVER ask for directions.
That is until they are beyond all hope of getting out of their mess
themselves! I would rather give advice BEFORE a person got himself
into deep trouble and took the wrong things apart or replaced a lot of
good parts and still didn't fix the problem. On the subject of the
fuel pump, it needs to run a little just to get some fuel to the motor
so it can start. If it doesn't pulse that in itself tells a lot.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_p...> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> In this example all the owner had to do is study the diagram to 
> answer his own question.  Learning how is not difficult and basic 
> auto electrical theory is something anyone who wants to work on cars 
> should learn. 
> 
> So Greg,
> 
> I studied the diagram to answer my own question, and I wasn't able 
> to; not even with a background in electrical engineering.  
> 
> Part of my original question was if the frequency valve was supposed 
> to run while the key was in the ON position.  So I look at the 









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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:33:43 -0000
From: "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?



Hey there all,
     I hope you had a good holiday.  I just got a set of DPNW's door
lock actuators and attempted to install them yesterday in my 30 degree
garage.  Everything is hooked up exactly as the instructions stated,
yet they still don't seem to perform much better than my solenoids
that I thought were burned out.  I cleaned the wiper switches inside
the door, and the linkages seem okay, but when I lock one door
sometimes it may lock another, or it may just move the switch halfway
either to lock or unlock on the other side of the car.  And the remote
lock/unlock feature that I installed a while ago for the door
launchers will give the same results, either half locking one or both
or doing nothing at all.  Has anyone else installed these and had
similar problems?  Any other ideas on where to look to correct this
problem?

Thanks,
Patrick
1880








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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:45:32 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_p...>
wrote:
 > I studied the diagram to answer my own question, and I wasn't able 
> to; not even with a background in electrical engineering.<

Matt, first off I apologize if I offended you. I was both making a 
point about learning things in general and also making a few
assumptions in your particular case. The assumption I was making is
you were aware of the RPM relay's function. As you pointed out it's
stated in the manual and the diagram shows the relay as having an
input from the ignition module. To anyone trained in circuit analysis
that should have jumed right out. Plus the archives are full of
references to this because of it's associated effect on the fuel pump
circuit and the relay is also used in many other vehicles for the same
purpose. I assumed it was common knowledge among anyone who has owned
the car for a period of time and among anyone who frequents the DML.
Since you're not a new owner (and one with a background in electrical
engineering) I also assumed you had already developed a basic working
knowledge of the car's electrical system and were aware of this
detail. I shouldn't have made any of those assumptions. My bad.

It's obvious from the diagram the frequency valve is sunk, not
sourced, for control. There is only one power input on the Lambda
controller so it should be intuitive the valve will not operate unless
power is supplied to the controller via the RPM relay. Since the
controller has but a single output sunked to the frequency valve (and
since the service manual in many places states what this output does)
a schematic of the controller should not be required to fathom it's
basic operation. It's sole purpose is to control the frequency valve
at a variable duty cycle in response to a hot O2 sensor (closed loop)
or at a fix duty cycle during open loop and during a contact closure
of either the WOT or coolant switch. It must be powered to do this and
as you say, the key to understanding when the controller (and hence
the frequency valve) is active lies in understanding the RPM relay. 

I should not have made the assumption you were aware of the relay's
purpose, as well known as it seems to be. I also assumed people would
do a quick search of the archives or service manual prior to asking.
In some ways it further validates my opinion about learning things
versus handholding but again, my apologies. As David points out,
perhaps lower expectations on my part are in order.

Greg








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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:24:06 -0000
From: "ryanpwright" <yahoo1_at_dml_ryanwright.com>
Subject: Re: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?



Patrick,

First, get ahold of Toby. He stands by his products and will support you.

Second, I've been running my actuators from DPNW for quite awhile now
(6 months? more?) without problems. Have you checked your door lock
controller? It is more than likely damaged if it's original. You can
rebuild it, pay John Hervey to rebuild it (I believe he does this),
buy another (used or NOS if available), or buy a Lockzilla. No
guarantee this will solve your problem, though.

Try the following: Hop in the car, close the doors and disconnect the
new actuators from the door lock controller. Manually actuate each of
them back & forth several times by touching the appropriate leads to a
+12v source. If you aren't comfortable doing this, find a friend who is. 

This will help you pinpoint the problem. If they work just fine, then
you know the actuators and your door linkages are OK, and chances are
good there is a problem with your lock controller. If they don't work
properly, then the problem is in the actuators or the door linkage.

I hope this helps.

-Ryan

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_a...> wrote:
> 
> Hey there all,
>      I hope you had a good holiday.  I just got a set of DPNW's door
> lock actuators and attempted to install them yesterday in my 30 degree
> garage.  Everything is hooked up exactly as the instructions stated,
> yet they still don't seem to perform much better than my solenoids
> that I thought were burned out.  I cleaned the wiper switches inside
> the door, and the linkages seem okay, but when I lock one door
> sometimes it may lock another, or it may just move the switch halfway
> either to lock or unlock on the other side of the car.  And the remote
> lock/unlock feature that I installed a while ago for the door
> launchers will give the same results, either half locking one or both
> or doing nothing at all.  Has anyone else installed these and had
> similar problems?  Any other ideas on where to look to correct this
> problem?
> 
> Thanks,
> Patrick
> 1880








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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:06:38 -0000
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?



Hey there Patrick,

It really sounds like you need to do a little bit of adjustment to 
the door lock linkages.  The service manual outlines this procedure, 
but I only use it as a guideline.  If you spend half an hour or so, 
just adjusting the rods and seeing how it changes the locking 
behavior, you'll quickly figure out what needs to be done.  In any 
case, I DEFINITELY think that the procedure outlined in the service 
manual is a much better guide than the one posted in the service 
bulletins.

You have an early VIN like myself, and for me, it was just too 
difficult to get the frontal lock rod properly adjusted due to the 
amount of flexing (the z-shaped bar).  I took DMC Joe's advice and 
removed it, but you'll see that you need it in order to install 
DPNW's actuators!  The solution then, is to chop off the Z-bar and 
only use the section of it that connects between the pivoting part 
of the lock, and the part that attaches to the actuator's rod via 
the rod clamp.  

I can take pictures of my setup if you would like.  My locks (with 
or without actuators) work perfectly every time.  

Matt
#1604








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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:56:03 -0500
From: mrvideosawyer_at_dml_netscape.net
Subject: In the Name of World Peace


I think we should just step back and take a deep breath here.  I will say if this list does not get back to what it is intended to do (help DeLorean owners fix their cars) then take me off the list.  Plain and simple "This is stupid"
Jim Sawyer 4149






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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:10:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Respect and Courtesy.


[MODERATOR NOTE:  This message pushes the edge of two rules, name calling and hearsay, but in my opinion it does not cross the line.  Please be polite, act like gentlemen and ladies, and do not quote non-DML messages on the DML.  - moderator Mike Substelny]


> Moderator Mike, I don't see any name calling. Marc
> is just asking a
> question and I'll be glad to give him an answer.

Ah, but your response DOES include name calling.

> Well Marc, since most of my posts occured after your
> "Sonny" sleuthing
> you'd think any intelligent person would realize you
> could do the same
> to anyone else. That would make me pretty dumb
> wouldn't it? Unless I
> was hoping you'd stumble upon it. Now there is a
> crafty idea. I could
> have changed my IP at anytime to avoid your little
> game. What is it in
> this post? See the point? Perhaps it has something
> to do with you
> playing Marc Levy, Internet Commando and Keeper Of
> The Faith. Why
> don't you ask Sonny?

I think your statement above indicates that YOU are
the one playing the game.  Is this a Courtesy and
Respectful use of the DML?

FWIW, when I read posts from "endotex23" I never even
noticed that it was not from "jetjock11".  Based on
the posts alone, I assumed they came from JetJock!  It
was someone else who brought this to my attention.  I
don't know why that person did not "take credit" for
it.

> So what is your point? I don't see the tone of my
> posts as being bad.

Then you need some 3rd party perspective.  Your posts
as both endotex23 and jetjock11 are always
condescending.  If you want to offer good advice, go
ahead.  But are you doing it for our benefit or yours?
Talk about ego problems.. LOL!

> Is what I post wrong? Is it delivered in a
> disrespectful or
> discourteous manner? Aren't I the one who suggested
> we all be nice?

You are disrespectful.  Even this post is
disrespectful.  Don't you remember a similar
discussion on the DMC Forum about the tone of the
jetjock11 e-mails?

> Regardless of who I am why do you feel I'm using a
> false alias? Maybe
> this checksix fellow was false, it's not uncommon
> for people to hide
> their identity on the internet. Look at Sonny for
> example. If Sonny
> didn't matter why should I? He had a hidden agenda
> to sell products.

Sonny's agenda may have been more obvious than yours..
but that does not mean you don't have one.

> What do you suppose my agenda is? To learn morals
> from you? I don't
> sell anything Marc, I give it away free. I also
> respond to ID

Feed your own ego?  Make yourself feel better by
putting others down?  I am sure a psychiatrist would
be better suited to try and explain your motivation
here.

> challenges. Maybe not the way you'd like so as to
> bolster your ego but

My ego?  I don't think so..  Again, I can't take
credit for discovering that endotex23 and jetjock11
use the same IP address, nor can I take credit for
noticing that a post which came from SonnyV was signed
James Espey.  Maybe because I am so controversial on
this list, I become a magnet for people to inform me
of these things with hopes that I take it public.
Which I did, after verifying the facts.

> I respond nevertheless. For example why didn't you
> ask about this by
> email? I think we all know the answer to that
> question.

Respond, sure.. But just with personal attacks on me. 
You did not answer my question. In your entire message
you neither confirm nor deny if endotex23 and
jetjock11 are the same person or not.

> Would you feel better if I left and returned under
> another name? It
> would take me five seconds to do so (and with a
> different IP) but I'd
> still be the same guy, whoever you think I am. I
> also apologize if I
> don't live up to your standards of respect and
> courtesy. (People who

How about your real name?  What are you hiding from?  

> live in glass houses and all that. Of the posts I've

Have I been guilty of using multiple names on this (or
any) list?  Have I found fault with anything anyone
has done that I have done myself?  I don't think so.

> seen you strike
> me as less than a Carnegie graduate). I thought I

Is this supposed to be an insult?  Because it is a
form of name calling.. Amazing how the moderators
allowed your post.

I guess one would have to be a graduate or a fancy
school to keep track of which name to use with which
alias.  How do you know when to sign a post with
"Greg" or "Gary"?

> was doing OK but
> I'll try to do better in the future. Until then take
> some advice: You
> can't expect others to live up to your own moral
> standards or you'll
> be sorely disappointed. Accept that as the way it is

No moral standards.. Just looking for "Respect and
Courtesy" among the members of the list.

> and spare me your
> lectures because you'll only be wasting your breath.

You first!  

> Try offering
> something useful to the group instead, assuming you
> can.

I may not offer too much technical advice because
there are other members of the list more qualified to
do so.  I have no problem accepting that others may
know more than me on a great number of topics, however
I don't suspect you would ever do that.

More importantly, I never claim I am something which I
am not..  But I have lost count of the number of cars
(DeLorean, and otherwise) that have found their way to
my garage for me to help out someone in need.

Speaking up for fraud and injustice is very useful. 
I'd like to the the masses appreciate it, because
otherwise I am sure I would have heard about it by
now.  Although I appreciate all of the private
support, I do wish my supporters would be more vocal
in public.

> Greg

Marc <- wow!  My REAL name, What a concept.

> By the way, are you the guy sending me hate mail?
> Stop.

Nope.  Can't say I have ever sent anyone "hate mail". 
But, nothing is anonymous on the Internet.  Your a
smart guy, track it down!





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:24:31 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Respect and Courtesy.


GOOD JOB MODERATORS!!

I very much like the disclaimer you are now posting at the beginning of
questionable posts (BELOW). Keep up the good work!

Happy Holiday's,
DMC Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Levy [mailto:malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 1:10 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Respect and Courtesy.



[MODERATOR NOTE:  This message pushes the edge of two rules, name calling
and hearsay, but in my opinion it does not cross the line.  Please be
polite, act like gentlemen and ladies, and do not quote non-DML messages on
the DML.  - moderator Mike Substelny]

(snip)







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


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