From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2392
Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:04 PM


There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. RE: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

2. Shop manual
From: "heylacy" <heylacy_at_dml_yahoo.com>

3. Re: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

4. Respect and Courtesy.
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. In the Name of World Peace
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

6. Re: First time for everything...
From: Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Re: Re: Volvo F Series CO Values
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

8. Re: Re: Lost all hope
From: Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

10. RE: Re: In the Name of World Peace
From: "Gary Hull" <Specialty_at_dml_IN2TIME.com>

11. Relays For Door Lock Module
From: "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>

12. Tachometer Flicker
From: "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com>

13. Door rod adjustment?
From: "William Bladorn" <at88mph_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>

14. VIN 5898 back on the road
From: "mydmc5898" <mydmc5898_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:18:51 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay


Matt,
---------------------------------
You said: "...it's also not obvious WHY the RPM relay only should activate
for "about a second" when the key is on the ON position.  The service manual
clearly states that it will, but why?  What controls that?  If my frequency
valve is buzzing and my fuel pump is running when I put the key in the on
position for more than a second, perhaps this is a failed component
somewhere (capacitor in the RPM relay?)?  Do you have a schematic for the
RPM relay?"
---------------------------------
Operation of the RPM relay, also known as the impulse relay in Volvo
publications, can be determined by reverse analysis. In addition to the
*duel relay contacts there is a voltage sensor and timing circuit. When the
ignition system is turned on it receives a current pulse similar to RPM tach
pulses. This is why the relay may activate when you turn the ignition key to
the "run" position prior to starting. Because the "run" on pulse has
different characteristics than tach pulses and depending on other
conditions, the relay may not activate when the ignition is turned on.  

In some cases, again depending on different electrical conditions, the relay
may cycle several times after the key is turned to the ignition "on"
position.  

Finally, concerning a schematic diagram; outside of a block diagram I know
of no component diagrams that exists. This has never been of real concern
because if you remove the relay cover all of the components are in clear
view. Basic circuitry and component knowledge makes it obvious how this
device works.
   
*some versions of the RPM relay have a single contact for the pump and
Lambda relay.

DMC Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Spittle [mailto:supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu] 
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 10:13 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
In this example all the owner had to do is study the diagram to answer his
own question.  Learning how is not difficult and basic auto electrical
theory is something anyone who wants to work on cars should learn. 

So Greg,

I studied the diagram to answer my own question, and I wasn't able to; not
even with a background in electrical engineering.  

Part of my original question was if the frequency valve was supposed to run
while the key was in the ON position.  So I look at the diagram...it looks
like the frequency valve is powered by the lambda relay, which is powered by
the RPM relay.  If this all happens, then whether the frequency valve turns
on or not is determined by pin 15 of the ECU.  Do you have a schematic for
the ECU, because it's not obvious to me what it does? 

Second, it's also not obvious WHY the RPM relay only should activate for
"about a second" when the key is on the ON position.  The service manual
clearly states that it will, but why?  What controls that?  If my frequency
valve is buzzing and my fuel pump is running when I put the key in the on
position for more than a second, perhaps this is a failed component
somewhere (capacitor in the RPM relay?)?  Do you have a schematic for the
RPM relay?  

So this is why I asked the list.  Please correct me as to where I should
have looked if my "homework effort" was inadequate before posting.  

thanks,

Matt
#1604







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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:20:10 -0000
From: "heylacy" <heylacy_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Shop manual



Hi, does anyone have a shop manual for sale or where the best place 
to get one would be. thanks








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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:29:20 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Problems Installing Door Lock Actuators...Any Help?



You may indeed have to repair the door lock module but I would suggest
that you do a through and exacting adjustment of the door locks and
the locking pins. In all probability the origional solenoids didn't
work right because the doors were forced closed and or locked at some
point. This can cause the module to also be damaged trying to lock the
solenoids when the door locks are not both in the 2nd locking
position. Replacing the solenoids and repairing the module will not
overcome any misadjustments in the doors. The full procedure is in the
Workshop Manual as it is too long to explain here. It is VERY
IMPORTANT that both door locks on each door work in unison and both
are in the 2nd locking position when you attempt to lock the doors. If
they are not the door locks will not work properly and you will bend
and force things out of adjustment. It does work the other way too so
it is possible the module burnt up and took the solenoids with it. In
any case you really should at least check the adjustments when
replacing the solenoid with an actuater (or solenoid). The Delorean is
a little unique in that there are 2 locks on the door and they have to
work simultainiously. Kind of like some rear cargo hatches.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


-- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, tobyp_at_dml_k... wrote:
> 
> 
> Patrick - I am posting this for the benefit of the List.  I received 
> your email regarding your challenges, and have sent you an extensive 
> reply in order to help you sort through the possible issues.  As I 
> stated in my reply, I believe the primary problem is with your door 
> lock module.  It has probably been damaged by trying to pass too 
> much current through as it attempted to feed those solenoids that 
> you've removed.  A local owner had very similar problems, and a 
> quick relay and capacitor replacement inside his DeLorean door lock 









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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:32:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Respect and Courtesy.


[MODERATOR NOTE:  At last this subscriber has stepped away from another line, implying that an opinion is a fact.  In the past he has stated the importance of this thread is a fact.  In this message he finally admits that the importance of this topic is his own personal opinion.  If anyone chooses to respond, I encourage you to make clear what is fact and what is your personal opinion.  - moderator Mike Substelny]


Some clarification Joe, please?

Are you saying, you don't care if someone on the list
is being deceptive?  

If in this scenario I simply sent mail to the person
in question, what good would that do the rest of the
list?  He already knows what he is doing, and does not
need me to tell him.  With that, I would expect him to
have the opportunity to defend himself. However, in
this case he took that opportunity to simply attack
me, and therefore I defended myself..

At which point in this discussion should the
moderators have rejected the thread?  My post stating
that there was a deception, his post defending himself
(attacking me), or my followup defending my self?

I think the information that has come out in this
discussion, although a distraction, is important for
all list members to know.  We have a guy who not too
long ago talked about dropping his DeLorean from an
airplane because it was such a awful car, and now he
is a guru that some members of this list may blindly
trust?

It would be a disservice to the rest of the community
to let things like this go unmentioned.

Furthermore, if someone does not want to see a
discussion like this continue, don't respond to it and
it will quickly die off.


--- DMC Joe <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net> wrote:

<SNIP>
> I have a suggestion: I think posts like the one
> attached, that do not
> concern the majority of readers should be isolated
> to the individuals
> concerned is such subjects, threads, discussions,
> etc.
<SNIP>


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. 
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com





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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:33:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: In the Name of World Peace


Discussing the list on the list is off topic?  

--- Dick Ryan <deloreanbiker_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:

<SNIP>

> they "don't cross the line".  They are not about
> DeLorean  (the car)  or DeLorean (the man).
> 
>


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250





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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:43:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: First time for everything...


I remember coming up to PF - there were two DeLoreans
- mine and Casey's. I had a guy to my left in a jeep
taking pictures with his camera phone.  He'd go behind
me, around me, and up front taking pictures.  Then he
went up to the next DeLorean in front of me and did
the same thing.  Madness dude, but wow what a feeling.
 Only driving a DeLorean.

Jeremiah

--- Jake Kamphoefner <jakekamp_at_dml_sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> I've had that happen a time or two, Pete.  The first
> time I thought I was
> being shot at!!  :-)
> 
> Jake Kamphoefner
> 1063 -->still bullet free
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Lucas" <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>
> Subject: Re: [DML] First time for everything...
> 
> <snip>
> > And then there is the one in which you are driving
> down the
> > highway at night and get blinded by a camera
> flash.
> >
> > --Pete Lucas
> >    VIN #06703





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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:46:35 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: Volvo F Series CO Values


With advance apologies for replying to a fairly old message, I have been 
prompted to look back at "endotex23"'s posts and so far have been 
imressed. I just wanted to drop a little info based on your last comment 
in this post

endotex23 wrote:

> I'm guessing 
>if you look more closely at that procedure you'll find it requires 
>the Lambda system to be disabled. This is usually done by 
>disconnecting the oxygen sensor on an OBD 1 or earlier vehicle so 
>equipped.
>  
>
FYI under warm-up conditions, lambda sensor disconnected, and, 
crucially, *when the full throttle microswitch is pressed* all have 
exactly the same effect, electrically speaking. This assumes your full 
throttle switch is working...

However, I have to stick up for Bill here - all the B28F's I've ever put 
on an analyser with lambda system working work at around 1% CO. And I 
have the luxury of servicing a large number of D's without catalytic 
convertors. I too have access to a different set of manuals - 
specifically the Renault K-Jet manual which also tells the same story 
for the Swiss Emissions controlled version of the Renault 30. The 
mixture screw does nothing more than adjust the offset of the fuelling 
graph - ie the "C" in the Y=Mx+C and has little or no effect, 
proportinally speaking, higher in the rev range where the cat is working 
hardest. I'd also invite you to see what the CO does at idle when the 
full throttle switch is pressed. I think you'll be surprised to see the 
CO skyrocket to a level that would fail an emissions test in the UK, let 
alone California!

Martin
DMUK





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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:55:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Enid/Jeremiah <hispanicangeleyes_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Lost all hope


I'm not even going to open the doors as to how much
I've spent.  What I will offer is the fact I have
thought in the past about selling my DeLorean (even up
to this week).  Then I think about everything I've
learned.  All the tools I've purchased (nothing with
"power" all hand-driven), and the wisdom I've gained
from owning this car.  Multiple people here have
pointed out how easy this car is to work on relative
to today's cars.  That is very true.

I didn't know the color of antifreeze when I bought my
car, and I'm 23...  I didn't know how to change the
oil, tighten an AC belt, put Marvel Mystery Oil into
the engine.  You said "O2 sensor", I said "huh?".  Now
I've learned so much.  With the help of other owners,
I've taken on projects like dissassembling the
electrical distributor, adding a tranny cooling kit,
and adjusting the valves.

Point is - sometimes the car and the work to be done
to it can seem overwhelming, if not self destructive. 
I know, believe me - I seriously know.  You just have
to find a way to "pace yourself", a comfortable flow
you can get into to restoring your car.  Find some
other owners, talk to them, share your frusturations
and tell them what's got you stumped and drained.  Let
them take you for a ride in their DeLorean.  I know
that sounds stupid, but I had a fellow owner do that
for me while mine was down.  5 minutes in the
passenger seat was all I needed to deciding to resotre
my DeLorean no matter how long it would take.  Heck
I'm still doing it.  I don't think it'll ever be
"done".  That's ok though; I just keep learning
everyday.

Good luck, hope to see you in the future.

Jeremiah





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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:52:00 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure & RPM Relay



I believe some are expecting far too much from the technical 
information shared on this forum. Diagnosis from information in 
these messages should be viewed as suggestive rather than 
authoritative and should be applied at the users own risk. As any 
engineer or technician will concur I'm sure, actual problem solving 
can be as much of an art as a science and really requires hands-on.

In any event, the best description about the idle, lambda, and spark 
is, in my opinion, best done by combining the reading of the 
Workshop Manual AND the Technical Information Manual. Reading those 
together gives a fairly complete picture of the workings and theory 
of operation of these systems. Further information can be had from 
the official Bosch manuals on K-Jetronic systems which, last I 
looked some time ago, were still around from Bosch.

Harold McElraft - 3354



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_p...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> In this example all the owner had to do is study the diagram to 
> answer his own question.  Learning how is not difficult and basic 
> auto electrical theory is something anyone who wants to work on 
cars 
> should learn. 
> 
> So Greg,
> 
> I studied the diagram to answer my own question, and I wasn't able 
> to; not even with a background in electrical engineering.  
> 
> Part of my original question was if the frequency valve was 
supposed 
> to run while the key was in the ON position.  So I look at the 
> diagram...it looks like the frequency valve is powered by the 
lambda 
> relay, which is powered by the RPM relay.  If this all happens, 
then 
> whether the frequency valve turns on or not is determined by pin 
15 
> of the ECU.  Do you have a schematic for the ECU, because it's not 
> obvious to me what it does? 
> 
> Second, it's also not obvious WHY the RPM relay only should 
activate 
> for "about a second" when the key is on the ON position.  The 
> service manual clearly states that it will, but why?  What 
controls 
> that?  If my frequency valve is buzzing and my fuel pump is 
running 
> when I put the key in the on position for more than a second, 
> perhaps this is a failed component somewhere (capacitor in the RPM 
> relay?)?  Do you have a schematic for the RPM relay?  
> 
> So this is why I asked the list.  Please correct me as to where I 
> should have looked if my "homework effort" was inadequate before 
> posting.  
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Matt
> #1604








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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:52:05 -0800
From: "Gary Hull" <Specialty_at_dml_IN2TIME.com>
Subject: RE: Re: In the Name of World Peace


Greg, (or whoever you are :-)

>From your latest post, you seem to think that people were just tired of
hearing from Marc. 

I think it's important that you understand that people are also tired of
your style of help - filled with multiple lines of put-downs to others and
ego-building for yourself. 

Some of us were glad that Marc spoke up, but sorry that you didn't
understand where he was coming from and just back off.

I greatly appreciate the advice you provide, but it is often hard to find
-buried in all of your "attitude".

Let ALL try to be nice - and I'll back off too.

Gary
IN2TIME






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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:37:52 -0000
From: "p12c16" <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Relays For Door Lock Module



Does anyone happen to have the RadioShack part # for the replacement
relays for the door lock module?  I plan on replacing mine, and would
like to do it ASAP instead of waiting to purchase them from a vendor
and have them shipped.  Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Patrick
1880








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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 03:57:15 -0000
From: "drdhdmd" <doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Tachometer Flicker



OK, I checked and cleaned fuse #1. I have a new rotor, cap, wire and 
plugs.

I checked to see if the flickering was affected by loading and it 
doesn't change with lights, A/C, fans and or defroster.

I tightened the main frame ground by the RH trailing arm bracket.

I tightned the auxilary ground on the RR frame member.

I see NO ground wires in the vacinity of the RH or LH horns...where 
are the wires that are supposed to be grounded by the LH horn bracket 
supposed to be coming from?

No joy still flickering.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Dē & 6530










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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:12:11 -0600
From: "William Bladorn" <at88mph_at_dml_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Door rod adjustment?


I've been having a slight problem out of my passenger side door.  Sometimes 
I have a problem with it opening from the outside.  It seems to open fine 
from the inside, just the outside has a problem.  It seems to hang more 
towards the front of the car.  The back will, most of the time, start to 
open, but gets hung up on the front side.  Could anyone tell me exactly what 
rod to adjust to help solve this problem?

Thanks for any help! :)

Duke 






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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:52:37 -0000
From: "mydmc5898" <mydmc5898_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: VIN 5898 back on the road



Well first off thanks to everyone who helped me with parts, advice 
and support! Josh, Ken, John Harvey, PJ Gradys and DMCH, and my 
mechanic Ted, and many many more, I have to go through to get 
everyone's name, for getting my dream car back on the road. I got it 
back today... I'm in debt now but I got it back!!!! I have to admit 
there is a much quicker acceleration on the 5-speed compared to when 
5898 was an automatic. I still need to take it around, it sat for 
close to 9months. So it needs to be taken around a bit, I did get 
started in that time BTW.

Well thanks again, only problems so far is a small leak in the seal 
around the tranny, and the CV joints need to be touched on.... other 
then that we are good.... hopefully this time,

Thanks again!
Darryl
VIN 5898









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