From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2413
Date: Sunday, January 09, 2005 3:19 PM


There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. More thoughts on rust
From: "smileksr" <michaelbarth_at_dml_hotmail.com>

2. DeLorean Car Show
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

3. Re: Piston rings + sleeves
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

4. Re: More thoughts on rust
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

5. Re: More thoughts on rust
From: Peter Lucas <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>

6. Re: Colored Fuel Lines (BLUE)
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

7. Re: Non Start Problem - Transmission Related?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

8. Re: DCS Music.. A suggestion from a while BACK
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

9. RE: More thoughts on rust
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

10. Re: More thoughts on rust
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

11. DML archives in Digest form
From: "birdwell77095" <birdwells_at_dml_usa.net>

12. Re: More thoughts on rust
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:51:19 -0000
From: "smileksr" <michaelbarth_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: More thoughts on rust



I am the guy who has aroused several responses by stating that I 
have "no fear" by driving my car in the winter.

About a dozen responses came in, all of which centered on rust.

My question is this: Is the Delorean more prone to rust than any 
other car?  Is the frame made of a different kind of steel or 
something that rusts more quickly?

If so, then I will change my winter driving habits.  But if not, 
then why are people so concerned about their Delorean rusting, more 
than their "winter car" that they subject to the salty conditions?  
It's not like we are driving a $100K car here, folks.  The Delorean 
is not irreplaceable.  Mine was the same price as a new honda.  I 
guess my thinking is, I will treat it the same and enjoy it year-
round.  I don't know...I can see both sides of the argument, because 
there are only so many of them (Deloreans, that is), and there will 
always be hondas.

But if the Delorean frame is somehow more prone to rust, then I'm 
definitely concerned about my winter driving habits.

Let me know...Mike #6528 (I think?)








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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:04:44 EST
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: DeLorean Car Show


Hi
 
Just wanted to pass on one thought on the show that came to me by a private  
e-mail/
 
I do share the operations of the show with you in hopes you get an  
understanding on what it takes to put this show on.  I do not have to  and no other 
group does.  My books have always been open and were on  display at PF and I 
usually bring it to club events.  This helps me run a  more efficient show 
financially.
 
One Person asked me to change the way I charge and do it all Ala  Carte.
 
As you know the DOA does this and I love their events but I do pick and  
choose what I do because of cost.  So I do not attend everything.  And  they have 
the people to staff it.
 
The problem I have with an Ala Carte event is then I have to break down the  
event into mini events.  It involves more staff (have to take tickets at  each 
venue as well) and gets into a lot more paperwork on my end. Less free  
movement for you as well.
 
I also think the owners loose out
 
Are you willing to pay $10 for a T-shirt instead of having it avail  free??  
(early registration) 
Would you pay extra for the Pins
Would you pay extra for the tech sessions
Would you pay extra for the parts sales
Would you pay extra for the car show itself.
 
The answer is some would and some would not.
And the overall cost of the show would go up as less people would attend  
each event.
This show has grown partially because it is easy to register and still  
affordable.
 
It still cost over $30 a plate (plus tax) for a dinner at a convention  hall.
If you think it does not then try to get a dinner quote from Pheasant Run  
for under $45.
That is where their basic meal is (with volume there is some give and  take)
Even Pigeon Forge was $25 min.(no tax at this event in TN)
 
Add to that the fact we need a place for the cars ( thousands here  
convention center and tents) 
The stage is extra
Tents are extra
Tables and chairs are extra
And What about drinks we do supply free beverages (non alchohlic) 
Free breakfast at PF (in the convention center)
 
So breaking this down and having lower attendance actually is of no  benefit.
 
I have heard people say why should I pay $50 for a meal
 
You are not there is all  of the above plus I have to pay for speakers  and 
entertainment and and and.
 
So I could charge $35 for the meal (plus tax)
$50 for registration fee (as I have seen at some functions already) 
$10 per shirt
$3.00 per pin
$15 per parts sale
$15 for seminars 
$10 for beverages
$8 breakfast
etc.
and as you see the reason the price is higher is because you now have to  
select to stay in a budget.
Less people at the vendor sales and tech sessions means they are less  likely 
to make money and less likely to return if sales are off.
 
I will sell less shirts so it will not offset the meals and free  t-shirts 
and I will have to charge more per person since the overhead costs  are divided 
per person (it has to get paid for somehow)
 
I like the method of a set price for the meal that includes everything for  
the evening.
the registration fee could be divided over the meals but I do need some  cash 
to operate up front. (name tags and items like that do cost (thanks  3M)).
 
The purpose of this e-mail is not to justify cost since I am going to  charge 
what it cost to put this show on since I have no choice but it is in my  
opinion a much better value if more people are able to attend everything.
 
Cost at this show cannot be a major factor at over 500 so I think pricing  is 
still working.
 
The only change I will instill in the next show because of the number of  
people is that I have had problems with seating since I have a set number of  
paid guest for dinner.  There are some that come only for the entertainment  and 
do not get dinner and the past two shows this number has grown.
 
After the show ends at 5:00 we will clear out the conference center and you  
will need a dinner ticket to come back in.  It cost me $200 to set up more  
tables at PF.  
 
We have all age groups from 16 to (help me Murray 86?) coming.
The number of tech sessions has increased dramatically from the first  show.
 
And a lot more has happened with the show.
 
Room costs have gone up, entertainment has gone up, food has gone up, 
but the cost of this show has stayed relatively flat over the years.
 
The unexpected costs and cost overruns have been paid by the raffles.  
 
There are a lot of so called Free bees since the structure works at this  
volume.
I can deal better and not get stuck in a detail oriented event.  So  you get 
the savings and can do everything at a lower cost.
 
I did this only because the Ala Carte thing comes up now and again but if  
you do things Ala Carte anywhere else it usually means only one thing 
MORE COST TO YOU.
 
If money is left over you get it back 
Remember free donuts in Cleveland and free breakfast at PF(joint effort  
there)
 
Pheasant run will be about $20 per person more than PF so expect that  
reflected in the pricing.  I am going there next week to work on a few more  details 
so I can get some actual numbers together.
 
 
Remember an indoor show costs significantly more than an outdoor one. But  if 
it rains it is the difference in a good show or a bust.  We are too big  to 
rely on weather.
 
Hope this helps it is just FYI and I hope you all understand I do the best  I 
can to get you the best speakers and entertainment I can for you at the best  
price.
 
See you in Pheasant Run.
 
Ken







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:36:17 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Piston rings + sleeves



Sounds to me like you have a vacuum leak and maybe a plugged up
injector. Before you go tearing the motor apart you should deal with
these problems first, you may not have any need to do the whole motor
unless you really want to just to do it and say it was done. The
reasons you mention still have not convinced me it is necessary. One
owner in our club (who has since passed on) DID do a conversion and
last I heard it was running well. He did it because he didn't
understand fuel injection and wanted to "tinker".
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> As far as parts, I would feel better using new parts but if the used
> ones have a small enough amount of wear then used would be fine. The
> fuel system parts will be removed as soon as I can located the A
> series manifold to bolt a carb to. Oil consumption is hard to tell
> because the drain plug has a slight leak, but I still doubt there is
> any oil burning. I have yet to do the compression test, there is only
> 66 thousand on the engine but it has had abuse with hi revs and etc,
03








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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:37:31 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: More thoughts on rust


Mike - there is a difference in the DeLorean frame compared to other
cars.  The DeLorean frame is epoxy-coated mild steel.  This means that
the steel itself has no anti-corrosive properties in it's molecular 
structure, like stainless steel does.  Other manufacturers use several 
different coatings to protect their sheet metal from corrosion that 
DeLorean omitted.  All of the corrosion protection is supposed to 
be provided by the epoxy coating.  This is a nice idea, but in practice, 
it just didn't work all that well.  The problem is that the epoxy
can become damaged through frame flexure, stone chips, curb
scuffs, etc.  Once there is an opening, moisture can collect between
the coating and the mild steel frame.  This means rust - and lots of 
it.  You won't be able to see it until the epoxy flakes off.  


--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "smileksr" <michaelbarth_at_dml_hotmail.com>: -------------- 


> 
> 
> 
> I am the guy who has aroused several responses by stating that I 
> have "no fear" by driving my car in the winter. 
> 
> About a dozen responses came in, all of which centered on rust. 
> 
> My question is this: Is the Delorean more prone to rust than any 
> other car? Is the frame made of a different kind of steel or 
> something that rusts more quickly? 
> 
> If so, then I will change my winter driving habits. But if not, 
> then why are people so concerned about their Delorean rusting, more 
> than their "winter car" that they subject to the salty conditions? 
> It's not like we are driving a $100K car here, folks. The Delorean 
> is not irreplaceable. Mine was the same price as a new honda. I 
> guess my thinking is, I will treat it the same and enjoy it year- 
> round. I don't know...I can see both sides of the argument, because 
> there are only so many of them (Deloreans, that is), and there will 
> always be hondas. 
> 
> But if the Delorean frame is somehow more prone to rust, then I'm 
> definitely concerned about my winter driving habits. 
> 
> Let me know...Mike #6528 (I think?) 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:58:59 -0500
From: Peter Lucas <lucas_at_dml_Maya.com>
Subject: Re: More thoughts on rust



On Jan 9, 2005, at 10:51 AM, smileksr wrote:

> My question is this: Is the Delorean more prone to rust than any
> other car?  Is the frame made of a different kind of steel or
> something that rusts more quickly?

In my judgment, the D is no more prone to rust than most other vehicles 
*of the era*.   But, you would be hard pressed to find examples of 
*any* 1981 daily driver of any make that survived much more than a 
decade in a snow zone.

Rust prevention technology has advanced dramatically since then. Due to 
fancy galvanization, advanced design and fabrication techniques, and 
magic sealants, modern cars just don't rust any more. But this is 
fairly recent development.

--Pete Lucas
   VIN #06703






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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:56:10 -0600
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Colored Fuel Lines (BLUE)


You should remember that the fuel lines in the DeLorean are actualy an outer
cover hose with a smaller high pressure line inside. You have to make sure
the fuel lines you're looking at can handle over 5 bar ( 75 psi)pressures.

Bruce Benson
>
> I am replacing all of my original D Fuel lines with new ones. I dont
> feel the stainless are my thing, so I am looking abroad.
> Does anyone know the exact measurements of the fuel lines, inner,
> outer and length of each, and also where one can get colored fuel
> lines that will accept a banjo fitting. I just want to do the main 6.
> These are what I found thus far.
>
>
> http://rotor.com.sg/fuelacclist.htm
>
> Just dont know what to order...any help Rocks!
>
> Brian D, With the coolest D.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see
www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 17:45:01 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Non Start Problem - Transmission Related?



On an automatic the start inhibit relay is used to prevent starting
the car in gear. Temporaraly I would disable the circuit, jumping it
out and see if the trouble goes away. There are many other
possablities, like a bad starter solenoid, bad conections in the start
circuit, etc so ruling out the inhibit circuit is a good place to
start. Also inspect the wiring going to the shift computer. It can get
burnt on the hot exhaust pipes if not routed and secured correctly.
That can cause the fuse to blow and other problems like not-start.
Fuses do not "wear out". They open from vibration or if a current that
is large enough to melt the link is drawn through it. Fuses are
generally oversized so they do not get damaged from an overcurrent of
a short duration. If the fuse blows it is an indication of a problem
in the wiring or a component.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "birdwell77095" <birdwells_at_dml_u...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Since I've had the car, I've had situations in which the car will not 
> start. The motor won't turn over. Nothing happens when I turn the 
> key. The lights and all the battery operated items work fine. In some 
> cases I can push the car a few few or move the automatic shifter a 
> few times then the car will start. Yesterday I had the same problem. 
> I played with the shifter and tried moving the car back and forth but 
> it still wouldn't start. So I played with the fuses and lot of 









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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:50:44 -0600
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: DCS Music.. A suggestion from a while BACK


How about this for an idea. Have a band but dont have them play loud 
and for the older or people with hearing problems have seating for them 
reserved away from the speakers?

Mark V

On Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 10:49  PM, kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

>
>
> These guys are in Atlanta
>
> Hill Valley Preservation society
>
> They are affordable and we have talked but it seems that we have a 
> group that
> is not interested in music and so we will not have a band and the DJ 
> will be
> outside only.
>
> I guess we are becoming of the Geritol age and should look at bingo 
> instead
>
> I like music
> Grew up in the 60's and 70's and am not ready for the rocking chair 
> yet and I
> do not have a hearing aid although my wife says I don't hear what she 
> says.
>
> Don't take the comments too serious I am just having some fun with 
> some of
> the people that posted and they know who they are.  You get  your 
> shots in and I
> am entitled to mine LOL
>
> I do like bands
> and if it were me I would crank it
>
> Ken






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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:21:15 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: RE: More thoughts on rust


Mike,

I would like to add one comment to your completely accurate description of
DeLorean frame rusting characteristics. 

You said: 
       "This is a nice idea, but........."

In defense of the design engineers the concept of the epoxy coated frame was
actually very good. What the designers did not know or consider is that the
epoxy used at that time shrinks and becomes brittle as it ages. When the
epoxy is new it is softer and more flexible making it much more resistant to
cracking and chipping. Therefore the problem is more age related than design
related.

DMC Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net [mailto:mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net] 
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:38 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] More thoughts on rust



Mike - there is a difference in the DeLorean frame compared to other cars.
The DeLorean frame is epoxy-coated mild steel.  This means that the steel
itself has no anti-corrosive properties in it's molecular structure, like
stainless steel does.  Other manufacturers use several different coatings to
protect their sheet metal from corrosion that DeLorean omitted.  All of the
corrosion protection is supposed to be provided by the epoxy coating.  This
is a nice idea, but in practice, it just didn't work all that well.  The
problem is that the epoxy can become damaged through frame flexure, stone
chips, curb scuffs, etc.  Once there is an opening, moisture can collect
between the coating and the mild steel frame.  This means rust - and lots of
it.  You won't be able to see it until the epoxy flakes off.  


--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "smileksr" <michaelbarth_at_dml_hotmail.com>:
-------------- 


> 
> 
> 
> I am the guy who has aroused several responses by stating that I have 
> "no fear" by driving my car in the winter.
> 
> About a dozen responses came in, all of which centered on rust. 
> 
> My question is this: Is the Delorean more prone to rust than any other 
> car? Is the frame made of a different kind of steel or something that 
> rusts more quickly?
> 
> If so, then I will change my winter driving habits. But if not, then 
> why are people so concerned about their Delorean rusting, more than 
> their "winter car" that they subject to the salty conditions?
> It's not like we are driving a $100K car here, folks. The Delorean is 
> not irreplaceable. Mine was the same price as a new honda. I guess my 
> thinking is, I will treat it the same and enjoy it year- round. I 
> don't know...I can see both sides of the argument, because there are 
> only so many of them (Deloreans, that is), and there will always be 
> hondas.
> 
> But if the Delorean frame is somehow more prone to rust, then I'm 
> definitely concerned about my winter driving habits.
> 
> Let me know...Mike #6528 (I think?)
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]












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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:29:06 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: More thoughts on rust


Most people drive their Hondas or Toyotas or whatever every day car
they have and the thought of salt doesnt even cross the mind- the
frame and underbody rots (quarters rot even faster), the car is either
sold to someone else or thrown away. Most DeLorean owners plan on
having their car for a while, and don't want to battle with frame
rust; the less time on the winter roads-the longer the frame will be
expected to last. You already know from the other members that the
steel isn't protected that great. If you have frame problems to begin
with and then take it out on the salty roads, you will see it rot away
before your eyes like mine did. Find a foolproof way to protect the
frame and you are all set. POR-15 works, but I am not sure of how well
in the long run (it's been applied 1 year ago). I've also used "Rust
bullet" on a few of my other classics, but again; I have no idea how
well it will be 10-20 years from now- best you can do is go
all out and get the SS frame. Otherwise if your frame looks good and
you are confident that the salt isn't getting to the metal, keep
on going! Drive safe -----Dani B #5003


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, mike.griese_at_dml_w... wrote:
> 
> Mike - there is a difference in the DeLorean frame compared to other
> cars.  The DeLorean frame is epoxy-coated mild steel.  This means
that
> the steel itself has no anti-corrosive properties in it's molecular 
> structure, like stainless steel does.  Other manufacturers use
several 
> different coatings to protect their sheet metal from corrosion that 
> DeLorean omitted.  All of the corrosion protection is supposed to 
> be provided by the epoxy coating.  This is a nice idea, but in
practice, 
> it just didn't work all that well.  The problem is that the epoxy
> can become damaged through frame flexure, stone chips, curb
> scuffs, etc.  Once there is an opening, moisture can collect between
> the coating and the mild steel frame.  This means rust - and lots
of 
> it.  You won't be able to see it until the epoxy flakes off.  
> 
> 
> --
> Mike
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from "smileksr" <michaelbarth_at_dml_h...>:
-------------- 
> 
> 
[moderator snip]





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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:31:09 -0000
From: "birdwell77095" <birdwells_at_dml_usa.net>
Subject: DML archives in Digest form



Does anyone have the DML archived in a digest form? I need those 
after #465 and before DML Digest #1202. Thanks.

Shannon
VIN 16113








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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:27:05 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: More thoughts on rust



Actually the DeLorean frame did pretty well considering its design. 
The original design spec was that it should last about 10 years, in 
general that's about what you'll see for a daily driver DeLorean in 
the salt-belt. The car I did the frame-swap on last winter was such a 
car early in its life, and it had holes all over the frame. The steel 
under the epoxy has absolutely no corrosion resistance to it. This is 
not very different from driving an 81 Corvette or Camaro, by the way, 
and you don't see many of them around in the salt belt either.

Unfortunately the cars are now 23 years old, the epoxy is more 
brittle with age, and on most of the cars it has started to crack at 
least around the corners. Once it cracks it does a great job of 
holding salty water against the steel accelerating the damage. 

If you started with a new DeLorean frame and drove it year-around 
you'd get your 10 years. You are not starting with something new 
however, it is old epoxy.  

But hey - it's your car, if you look at it as the investment/cost-of 
ownership (depreciation, not maintenance) equivalent of a new Honda, 
i.e. it will rust away and be worthless in 8 years, you'll come out 
about right. And it is a lot cooler! 

Dave S



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "smileksr" <michaelbarth_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I am the guy who has aroused several responses by stating that I 
> have "no fear" by driving my car in the winter.
> 
> About a dozen responses came in, all of which centered on rust.
----
 Mine was the same price as a new honda.  I 
> guess my thinking is, I will treat it the same and enjoy it year-
> round.  I don't know...I can see both sides of the argument, 
because 
> there are only so many of them (Deloreans, that is), and there will 
> always be hondas.









________________________________________________________________________
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