From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2431
Date: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:54 PM


There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Delorean DVD - Copyright infringment?
From: Kevin Abato <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>

2. Re: Re: Carburator (David T)
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

3. Re: Carburator.
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

4. Re: Carburator (David T)
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

5. Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

6. Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

7. Re: door trouble...
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

8. fan villa
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>

9. Weekend in Canada
From: "Marvin" <marv_at_dml_printeddrinkware.com>

10. 'Back to the Future' screening with Bob Gale
From: "BTTF.com" <stephen_at_dml_bttf.com>

11. Re: More problems found (was Piston rings + sleeves)
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

12. Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: "cruznmd" <racuti1_at_dml_delorean.com>

13. Looking for owner of #5205, I have something for you
From: "ferdaniraphael" <raf40_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>

14. Re: Re: Carburator (David T)
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

15. Re: Carburator (David T)
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

16. Re: Re: Carburetor Re: Tec3
From: Pete Berveiler <zamphyr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

18. Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

19. Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

20. Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

21. Re: door trouble...
From: mike clemens <rmclemns_at_dml_yahoo.com>

22. Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

23. Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

24. Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com





Message: 1
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:38:33 -0500
From: Kevin Abato <delorean_at_dml_abato.net>
Subject: Delorean DVD - Copyright infringment?


Isn't it copyright infringement to sell this on e-bay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=617&item=6357475456&rd=1

If not, then I have a lot of material like this that I would like to 
post on the Mid-Atlantic website, but never did dues to pending legal 
reasons.

Kevin Abato
Vin# 16680






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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:11:21 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Carburator (David T)


> Bill,

Way cool!


> My daily transportation are carbureted vehicles 24-28 years old.

I thought that we were the only excentric family that still drives old 
cars as their daily drivers.

We still drive our mid 70s air bag oldsmobiles and AMC Pacer Wagons.  
Great cars, easy to maintain.
AND get reasonable mileage.   The 6  cylinder Pacer gets 20 mpg.  And 
the big olds get 15 mpg on the highway.
Compared to the vehicles you have to drive to get this much interior 
room,  some of the more "modern" cars get even worse mileage.

I have contemplated putting FI on my V8 delorean, but have always 
hesitated because of added complexity and cost.
I am glad that someone else agrees with the KISS  principal.

BOB

> They
> all start on the first key turn. They all run perfectly, even in 20
> degree weather (that's what a properly functioning choke plate does
> for you). I maintain each of them myself for the cost of parts, which
> cost a fraction new car parts. Maintenance also takes a fraction of
> the time required for new car maintenance simply because access is so
> much easier.
>
> BTW: have I ever told you I still drive in daily service the same car
> I drove in high school? May be "quaint" to you, but I find it way
> cool. How many people can make such a claim to longevity? I've
> uploaded a pic to #5939's photo album until Dave Swingle knocks it 
> down.
>
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
>






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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:03:23 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Carburator.



Everything Gregg says here is very sensible and can be done. If you
can wade through the whole exercise (and understand it) you *might*
get a little more power. IMHO most of the power would come from
removing the cat, messing with the Lambda will acomplish little. My
advice would be to just use all of the origional systems. Tune the car
up. Most owners are amazed at the increase in power, the responsivness
and the smooth running you get by tuning up a car that is out-of-tune.
As a car ages and is driven the car very gradually falls out of tune.
The owner doesn't notice it. They DO notice when it is tuned up. Since
it is not a gradual process the results are dramatic. If after that
you still want a little more remove the Cat. Be aware that it is
Federal Law that prevents tampering with any origional emmissions
equipment and Hawaii is still part of the US. What you can do (and is
a little sneaky) is to remove the guts inside the cat. This way it
*looks* like you are OK but the only way anyone can tell is to stick
an analyzer in your tailpipe. If you do fail they will just assume the
Cat is tired, not gutted. BTW all this info is just for informational
purposes, anyone actually doing this is breaking the Law!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "alex morgan" <mauibarber_at_dml_h...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I live in hawaii where we have no smog or emissions check.  How
> difficult is it to disconnect all emmissions from the Delorean?  Would
> it still run correctly and if so how much additional horse power would
> it get.<
> 
> 
> Hmmm, depending on those trades winds to blow it away? It still goes
> into the atmosphere you know and someone has to deal with it. Also, I
> know of not a single state, emissions inspection or not, that legally
> permits the removal of factory installed emissions equipment. That
said...
> 
> The Lambda trim system is designed to dynamically control your mixture
> 








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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:29:27 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Carburator (David T)



With EFI, in order to fix your car you need to hook it up to a
computer in order to find out what's wrong. That means you first have
to get your car to the computer-if it is in a shop they charge you to
just hook it up and then more to read the readings. As Bill mentioned,
carburetion is simple. We all know it has been around far longer then
EFI so the technology has already been fully studies, understood, and
the improvements to the carburetor have already been made. Meaning:
The Holley carburetor is much more improved then the Stromberg
downdraft, Holley studied the problem areas of the old carbs to
engineer a new one. Instead of rods, valves, springs etc-in EFI you
have a computer controlling everything, meaning modules, tons of
wires, much more components, more of something means the more chance
you have of failing. When my 67 Mustang doesn't start, I know why,
when my fathers 2004 Ford Ranger doesn't start...forget trying to
figure out why-call the tow truck. Ultimately, the little group of us
trying to experiment with carburetion want it for those reasons:
simple, costs very little, easy to maintain, opens up all kinds of
room, easily tunable, and the list goes on. Car companies with FI
wanted to use technology with the chips and etc,  and to make it easy
for the owner to maintain-don't have to touch the engine-instead of us
who have to go out in the winter and adjust the choke and accelerator
pump rod down a hole-big deal. The companies don't care that come
20-30 year the FI system will be very troublesome and costly to
replace, but then again; they're not thinking about the long run,
especially now that they're making these disposable cars. A 60 year
old car built to LAST? Buy (or better yet-REBUILD for 20 mins) and
install a new carb-you're all set. How much does EFI cost these days?
-----Dani B. #5003


> Perhaps you meant to say "carburetion is tried and true technology"?
> 
> True, carburetion does not meet everyone's needs. But for those of
> like mind (at least half a dozen on this List), it is a fool proof and
> trouble free method of fuel delivery.
> 
> (Thought I explained as much in Message #48334).
> 
> I'm not interested in making my car "more advanced". I'm interested in
> making it simple, reliable, and easy to maintain. For example:
> - My intake manifold comes off in a minute or so to access plumbing in
> the Valley of Death (popped it off and reinstalled at a gas station
> once *WHILE* filling the tank). I can also reach into the Valley of
> Death from above the engine. Of course clamps on the back of the water
> pump are accessible with manifold still in place.
> - Changing cap, rotor, plugs & wires takes well less than 30 minutes. 
> - Haven't pulled it off yet, but eventual water pump replacement
> should also be less than 30 minutes (not only is it fully exposed, but
> my pump is held to the block by stainless studs & nuts).
> - Clutch slave cylinder, heater core shutoff valve, heater core
> takeoff barb, temp gauge sending unit, etc are also fully exposed for
> easy replacement.
> - Fuel distributor, fuel injectors, copper washers, injector boots,
> banjo bolts, fuel lines, CPR, delay valve, thermal vacuum switch,
> hidden vacuum lines, frequency valve, idle speed motor, idle speed
> motor takeoff O ring, U pipe gaskets, spark advance cutoff solenoid,
> idle speed microswitch, full throttle microswitch, thermal time
> switch, cold start injector, cold start tube O ring, O2 sensor, Lambda
> and idle speed ECU's, fuel accumulator, and clips on the throttle
> spool connecting rod will never need replacement because they aren't
> on my vehicle.
> - Low PSI fuel pump IS in the tank ($12.99). A cartridge fuel filter
> IS in the engine compartment ($1.99). Rubber fuel lines DO connect
> them ($.99 per foot), held tight by band clamps ($.50 each). And I DO
> have an air filter ($2.99).
> 
> Note also that I have none of the running issues that keep popping up
> on this List:
> - Engine starts on the first key turn.
> - Idle speed does not fluctuate. Carb does have a fast idle cam that
> predictably steps down as its spring warms up (opens the choke plate
> at the same time).
> - Engine vacuum itself draws fuel through the venturi, so metering
> always matches throttle setting.
> - I have an improved tank baffle & pickup of my own design, but they
> really isn't necessary because the pump only puts out 4-6 PSI, and
> carb actually draws from its own reserve in the bowls.
> - Engine hasn't cut off on me yet, but I expect it to do so the first
> time car flips upside down (inertia switch isn't necessary either).
> 
> You mentioned expense -- exclusive of the manifold, carburetion costs
> $200+.
> 
> What I find quaint is the reverence paid to "modern" cars, especially
> considering no one hangs onto one of them for more than 5 years or so.
> My daily transportation are carbureted vehicles 24-28 years old. They
> all start on the first key turn. They all run perfectly, even in 20
> degree weather (that's what a properly functioning choke plate does
> for you). I maintain each of them myself for the cost of parts, which
> cost a fraction new car parts. Maintenance also takes a fraction of
> the time required for new car maintenance simply because access is so
> much easier.
> 
> BTW: have I ever told you I still drive in daily service the same car
> I drove in high school? May be "quaint" to you, but I find it way
> cool. How many people can make such a claim to longevity? I've
> uploaded a pic to #5939's photo album until Dave Swingle knocks it down.
> 
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
> 
> >--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...>
wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > All this talk about going BACKWARDS is quaint. Carbureation is OLD
> > TECHNOLOGY. If anything we should be experimenting with EFI and full
> > engine management. As advanced as K Jetronic was in it's time, it was
> > a continuous system. The future went to pulsed injection so K-Jet is
> > only a small step above carburaters anyway. Just about all automakers
> > have gone to full engine management to improve driveability,
> > reliablity, emmisions, and performance. Aside from the expense of
> > doing it, it sounds like a winning combination. No more distributer,
> > more tolerant of blended gas, no problems with extreme hot, cold,
> > altitude, in short it will run like a modern car! Right now the engine
> > has 3 black boxes to keep it running (ignition, Lambda, and idle), 4
> > if you include voltage regulation. 5 if you have an automatic. All
> > that could be put into one and all functions integrated and fully
> > adjustable. It would be a monuemental job but I am sure the right
> > person could do it! Now THAT would be interesting, not some carburator
> > bolted onto a manifold! Just think, you could incorporate the cooling
> > fans (aka Fanzilla or whatever) the door locks, remote entry, the
> > wiper delay module, the interior lighting delay, and on, and on. That
> > electronic dashboard now would incorporate all of these signals and
> > more. With a small plasma display you could have all kinds of
> > messages. Now we are talking FUTURE!!!
> > David Teitelbaum
> > vin 10757
> > 
> > --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > FWIW;
> > > 
> > > Charles Muffley put a carb on his DeLorean using the
> > > stock intake..
> > > 
> > > --- content22207 <brobertson_at_dml_c...> wrote:
> > >








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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:20:14 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


David,
Ii agree.  Building and engine without testing it is only a puzzle 
contest and not engine building.

Putting an engine together properly.  Blue printing it  and checking 
for balanced components is  time consuming and not a contest.

I would rather see some techical session on people who have modified 
their cars and all the issues related to the installation.

I have always been disappointed with not have the opportunity to talk 
to all of the car crafters and we need to set up a time (hours) to make 
this information  available.

Besides, I also think we need to set up a dyno testing day.,  THeir is 
a place about 30 minutes away.

We need to have a slalom course,

We need to go to the drag strip and get some publicity.

We should have a night out at indoor car racing.  There is this really 
cool place to do this.

And time to site see Chicago.  There are trains from st. Charles to 
down town.

This should be the biggest and best Delorean show ever.  We should plan 
for a week long event.

An the main theme is the 25 th anniversary with DMCH  25th anniversary 
car.  (hey, does'nt the vette have a 25 th anniversary car?  too!

BOB









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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:05:22 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest



I should be able to make it to the '06 show this time. I'll know for
sure in a another month or so. Provided I can make it, count me in!
Three hours? should be done in less then 2 :) -----Dani B. #5003








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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:00:02 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: door trouble...



I was under the impression that the exterior door handles were broken
off. How would a tractor battery or a lock smith help? -----Dani B.








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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:30:11 -0500
From: "DMC Joe" <dmcjoe_at_dml_att.net>
Subject: fan villa


Nick,

Not a big deal but in defense of Bob Zilla, the product name is "FanZilla"
http://www.pjgrady.com/lgspec.asp?id=8

DMC Joe 

-----Original Message-----
From: nicholden_at_dml_yahoo.com [mailto:nicholden_at_dml_yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:30 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Carburator.

David, you hit the nail right on the head. I have not bought a fan villa due
to the fact that the EFI control module i am purchasing has the facility to
activate mutiple relays in a set sequence to bring on the fans (or anything
else) the same way the fan villa does. 

Cheers, Nick

<snip>






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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:57:09 -0500
From: "Marvin" <marv_at_dml_printeddrinkware.com>
Subject: Weekend in Canada


Any interest in a summer DeLorean weekend on the beach?

Location: Grand Bend, Ontario, Canada.
               - www.grandbend.com 
               - on the shores of Lake Huron
               - this small community population explodes in the summer.
               - 40 minutes north of London, Ontario
               - + - 1 hour from Port Huron, Michigan

Date: June 18 - 19 / 05 weekend

Focus: cars, cruise the main drag, great beach, bikinis, beer, sunshine,  vegging in the sun, and maybe a tech session if someone will do it, bikinis, USA dollar currently is worth about 20% more than the Canadian dollar, did I say bikinis and beer?

Hotel de Choice: Oakwood Inn - however, campgrounds and other motels are close by, but book now as they fill for that weekend.

Food: many burger joints to fine dining

Dress: not me! It's a jeans / bathing suit weekend.

Function / Program: non structured.

Freebies: usual baggy of goods.... including a unique DeLorean souvenir.

Need a response from those interested, asap, if I am to proceed with plans.

Marv.
# 17077
marv_at_dml_printeddrinkware.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:35:59 -0000
From: "BTTF.com" <stephen_at_dml_bttf.com>
Subject: 'Back to the Future' screening with Bob Gale



Those of you on the list who are in the Los Angeles area may be 
interested to know that there will be a one-time only 20th 
Anniversary screening of 'Back to the Future' on February 1, 2005 at 
7:30 PM at the ArcLight Hollywood Cinemas.  Writer/Producer Bob Gale 
will be in attendance for a Q&A session following the movie.  I'm 
sure he'd be stoked to see a parking lot full of DeLoreans that 
evening!

Complete details can be found at our newly redesigned site.  

Stephen Clark, BTTF.com
http://www.bttf.com/









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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:14:14 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: More problems found (was Piston rings + sleeves)



Some places to check for vacuum leaks:
Fuel injector seals
The air pipe that goes underneath into the mixture unit for the idle
motor and the "O" ring seal it fits through
The "O" ring seals between the intake manifold and the heads
All the gaskets and seals on the induction system
Any old, hard, cracked vacuum hoses
The hole over the mixture screw
Any stripped or broken bolts that prevent you from sealing things up right
Go over the routing and connections of all the vacuum hoses. You
cannot assume you did things right by putting them back as you found
them, they may not have been hooked up correctly in the first place.
Check the line going to the brake booster and the booster itself for
vacuum leaks.
Check the vacuum line going from the resovoir to the mode switch and
Check the lines to the resovoir and the resovoir itself.
If you have an automatic check the line going to the modulater. 
In short go over ALL of the vacuum system.
The rough running could be a bad spark plug wire or one that is not
snapped on right.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Some pictures of todays happenings: http://damngoodsite.net/5003.html
>  .....my 7 thousand dollar engine, wish it was going in the DeLo LOL
> ;)
> 
> As you can see, no shade tree mechanic here, I love working on engines
> and transmissions, been doing it for years:). Today I had all day to
> examine the car. Valve adjustments were first.
> I discovered that there wasn't even a gasket installed for the left
> side valve cover and bolts were loose, luckly I had one last brand new
> set of gaskets on my shelf. Intake clearances were off but not bad,
> exhaust was OK. All camshaft lobes look fine, there were no flat
> spots. After that, I removed the intake manifold to see whats
> going on underneith as well as make it easier for compression test and
> distributor examination. I wanted to check electical connections,
> vacuum connections as well as any coolant leaks also. Compression was
> as follows: #1 cyl 10.7 BAR/125PSI #2 11BAR/160PSI #3 10.5BAR/152PSI
> #4 10BAR/142PSI #5 10BAR/143PSI #6 10BAR/143PSI. I also needed to
> adjust the bolt under the dash that stops the gas pedal, seems that
> this cured my problem a little bit. Upon reassembly and restarting the
> car, the engine ran extremely rough-but I believe this to be from the
> old alternator I had to install, need to send the 150amp back because
> of it's loud squeeling upon starting up. Checked timing, was dead on,
> and I removed & disassembled the distributor and rebuilt it again.
> Otherwise, there must be a
> vacuum leak somewhere, my lines are all connected so I'm not really
> sure where to look next for leaks,  any suggestions? -----Dani B.
> #5003








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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:34:13 -0000
From: "cruznmd" <racuti1_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest



Ken,

I think that an engine building contest would be awesome! I do think 
that proof-of-skill should be part of the contest by running the 
engines though. They make engine test stands. Couldn't we build them 
and run them on the stands?

No offense to Dave and Bob as I highly value their expertise but 
once again, this is how all the "religion" gets woven into our cars. 
I get tired of hearing how such-and-such a repair should only be 
undertaken by a DMC or ASE ordained high-priest (or priestess).

Blue-printing? Balancing? Porting and polishing? Those are excellent 
things to do but who says we have to do them just for this contest? 
These engines are laying all over the place in various conditions. 
Houston doesn't even want cores! We could take a couple of semi-
functional junkers with blown headgaskets, tear them down and 
provide rebuild kits for each. Rings, bearings, timing chains, 
gaskets etc.

Not to mention that this could easily double as a tech forum. A 
narrator could explain to interested observers what's going on as a 
team progresses and answer questions. A written spec sheet and list 
of events could be provided.

I'm not downplaying the value of doing things right. I'm just saying 
that these engines don't have to be concours-perfect. In fact, they 
could be recycled for this event exclusively. For the record, my 
engine had blown headgaskets, and a million other things wrong. I 
tore it down and reconditioned it alone (with advice from the DML), 
down in my basement. I didn't blue print and balance but I drive it 
every day. It starts and drives as reliably as my PT Cruiser, gets 
25-27 mpg and has 25,000 miles on it since I put it back together.

I say it's a neat idea.

Rich A.
#5335

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, kKoncelik_at_dml_a... wrote:
> 
> One good thing that came out of todays discussion was what could 
be done to  
> improve the show technically.
>  
> I am looking for two teams interested on probably Saturday Morning 
say 8 am  
> start time to take an engine that is totally torn down and rebuild 
it.
>  
> The fastest team is the winner 
>  
> We will figure out a prize
>  
> I am sure we can find two engines (I have one already)
>  
> Parts would be cleaned and ready to go all it needs is a rebuild.
>  
> Is there anyone interested 
> I would think two teams of 8 and I am hoping it can go together in 
about 3  
> hours
> What do you think
>  
> Ken
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:11:06 -0000
From: "ferdaniraphael" <raf40_at_dml_wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Looking for owner of #5205, I have something for you



Hi
I'm looking for the owner of VIN# 5205 ; I found the pre-delivery 
inspection ckeck list of this car among some DMC documents I bought, 
and I think it would be at home with the right car ;-)
I live in France but will be happy to ship it to you, I have no use 
of it as I have a nice blank one.
If you are the owner or even know him, please let me know.
Raphael, France








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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:13:44 -0600
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Carburator (David T)


Car companies went to electronic controls for the primary reason of making
an engine that could deliver good fuel economy, meet emission requirements,
deliver smooth performance at every speed and still have high power
available on demand. With a computer controlling a number of things ranging
from fuel flow to valve timing engines can be very docile in everyday
driving and yet produce horsepower on demand equal to the old lumpy camed,
over carbureted, lousy idling engines that relied on fixed mechanical things
to produce horsepower at high RPM's while over feeding the engine at lower
speeds. It was something inevitable to meet both society and customer
demands in the 21st century. Why work backwards instead of trying to update
the DeLorean?

Bruce Benson


>Car companies with FI
> wanted to use technology with the chips and etc,  and >to make it easy
> for the owner to maintain-don't have to touch the >engine-instead of us
> who have to go out in the winter and adjust the choke >and accelerator
> pump rod down a hole-big deal. The companies don't >care that come
> 20-30 year the FI system will be very troublesome and costly to
> replace, but then again; they're not thinking about the >long run,
> especially now that they're making these disposable >cars. > -----Dani B.
#5003






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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:17:12 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Carburator (David T)





--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "content22207" <brobertson_at_dml_c...> wrote: 

> Perhaps you meant to say "carburetion is tried and true technology"?<

Hmmm, it seems you and others are missing the point. EFI is far from
new and is also tried and true technology.

> True, carburetion does not meet everyone's needs. But for those of
> like mind (at least half a dozen on this List), it is a fool proof
and trouble free method of fuel delivery.<

What "needs" would those be? EFI is far more foolproof and reliable
than carburation. In fact anything electronic is more reliable than
mechanical devices. You remind me of the attitude of older pilots I
work with who originally balked at "glass cockpits" for the same
reason, yet they are the standard in every new airliner today. Any
engineer will tell you electronics are far more reliable and better at
doing the job than gears, pulleys, ect, if you get my drift. Ask
Airbus, Boeing, or any military contractor.

> I'm not interested in making my car "more advanced". I'm interested
in making it simple, reliable, and easy to maintain.<

It's your car but EFI *is* simple, more reliable, and easy to
maintain. In fact there is little to no required maintenace on it at
all. Clean the injectors every 100K mile or so and that's about it.
DIS makes cars even eaiser to maintain and more reliable. Btw, EFI
also starts at the touch of the key in any weather. It also idles and
runs better under all conditions.

Which brings me to another point you seem to be missing: Just because
a carburated car starts and runs doesn't mean it's doing so at peak
efficiency. Nor will it adapt to changing condtions, dynamically learn
to remap it's fuel trim, adjust for varying engine conditons or wear,
changes in the ambient, on and on. Carburation is "dumb", it's a
static system without ability to do anything on it's own other than
meter fuel based on one or two conditions, and poorly at that. 

Your point about cost isn't valid either. Carbs are not cheap to
rebuild andthey do require rebuilding whereas EFI doesn't. And EFI
will easily recoup it's cost in fuel savings alone, not to mention
less maintenance. It's also more adaptable to modification. My daily
driver is a MK IV twin turboed Toyota Supra that makes nearly 700 rwhp
from only increased boost and EFI mods. Nor is EFI untested
technology. Prior to that I had a 1987 MK III Supra that went 180,000
miles with zero EFI problems. It's still running strong the last I
heard. That car was only 5 years older than a Delorean when new and
had OBD I on it. I never had a single fault code or EFI problem in all
the years I owned it. Simple to deal with yet still a marvel of EFI
engineering. The common argument that any car 18 or 20 years old will
have lots of problems is a myth as long as it's well designed,
constructed, and maintained.

Your may consdier your older Fords to be be proof of this but you have
to put in more time, money, and effort to keep them there than an
"electronic" car.  Not to mention their poor emissions and lack of
diagnostic abilities. OBD I cars are simple to work on and OBD II
isn't much more difficult. You don't need a scanner for OBD I and the
cost for a simple scanner for OBD II is more than offset by it's
ability to speed diagnosis in the rare event it's needed. Besides, no
one is saying a Delorean needs to have an OBD II level of engine
control. It'd be nice but why would you want it when something like
the MegaSquirt is so open and easy to understand? Especially if you're
the one installing it? You'll know it inside and out by the time
you're done.

> - Low PSI fuel pump IS in the tank ($12.99). A cartridge fuel filter
> IS in the engine compartment ($1.99). Rubber fuel lines DO connect
> them ($.99 per foot), held tight by band clamps ($.50 each). And I
DO have an air filter ($2.99).<

So what? The high pressure pump on most EFI cars is in the tank too.
Neither it nor any of the items (except the air filter) you quote 
ever needed replacing on either of my Supras, nor do they on a modern
car. Material science (elastomers, fule filter media, etc) has come a
long way yet you curiously tout older technology as being superior.
Btw, if by "band clamps" you're refering to screw band clamps, they're
the poorest form of hose retention technology you can use. Harder on
the hose too. 

> Note also that I have none of the running issues that keep popping
up on this List:<

Every one of those problems is the fault of the owner or his mechanic
in resolving them, not the systems. A properly operating K Jet and CIS
 will have none of those issues and EFI certainly won't. And I'd
hardly call replacing a more advanced technology with an older one
simply because of an inability to repair it a step forward.

> Engine vacuum itself draws fuel through the venturi, so metering
> always matches throttle setting.<

You must be joking. Do you honestly believe EFI metering is inferior
to venturi metering? As a side note, one of the advantages of the K
Jet's continuous injection is the injectors can be individually flow
tuned to provide exactly the same charge irrespective of the car not
having a tuned induction system. It's done all the time in aviation
for very good reasons: better power, throttle response, and fuel
efficiency. EFI can't do this but it's moot anyway, it's metering is
vastly superior to carburation due to it's ability to trim on the fly
under changing conditons, both within the engine and in the ambient
environment.

> What I find quaint is the reverence paid to "modern" cars,
especially considering no one hangs onto one of them for more than 5
years or so.<

No one hangs onto them? Really? I see them around everyday. What do
you think happens to all those $40K Lexuses, etc, after people trade
them in? Do you think they end up in the crusher? And as I said, my
former, earlier model of Supra is not only still running strong but is
a much sought after by performance enthusiasts, as are many other
"new" cars. It's 18 yers old now.

I realize I'm unlikely to change your mind but your attitude is based
on ignorance and an unfamiliarity with technology which, of course,
breeds contempt for it. Others need to know the facts and they aren't
anywhere near what you claim. If you want to live in the stone age
it's your choice but to say carburation has merits over EFI is wrong
in every sense. It's a giant step backwards in every respect, even
compared to the K Jet.

Greg


 











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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:54:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Pete Berveiler <zamphyr2000_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Carburetor Re: Tec3


Steve,

What is the Total Package Tec3 system for your D
running at?  I have a dead K-Jet that I have been
contemplating replacing with that system... let me
know when you can.



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 





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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:18:07 -0600
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


What i would like to see is a Cut-Away view of the PRV on display. I am 
sure someone has a blown PRV that they can donate to the show for a 
display. I think this would be neat in the vendor area so people can 
see the inner workings of the PRV.

Mark V


On Jan 17, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Bob Brandys wrote:

>
>
> David,
> Ii agree.  Building and engine without testing it is only a puzzle
> contest and not engine building.
>
> Putting an engine together properly.  Blue printing it  and checking
> for balanced components is  time consuming and not a contest.
>
> I would rather see some techical session on people who have modified
> their cars and all the issues related to the installation.
>
> I have always been disappointed with not have the opportunity to talk
> to all of the car crafters and we need to set up a time (hours) to make
> this information  available.
>
> Besides, I also think we need to set up a dyno testing day.,  THeir is
> a place about 30 minutes away.
>
> We need to have a slalom course,
>
> We need to go to the drag strip and get some publicity.
>
> We should have a night out at indoor car racing.  There is this really
> cool place to do this.
>
> And time to site see Chicago.  There are trains from st. Charles to
> down town.
>
> This should be the biggest and best Delorean show ever.  We should plan
> for a week long event.
>
> An the main theme is the 25 th anniversary with DMCH  25th anniversary
> car.  (hey, does'nt the vette have a 25 th anniversary car?  too!
>
> BOB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:00:43 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


Questions:

Are us "professionals" allowed to enter?
When you sat "completely torn down" I assume you mean pistons, piston 
rings, crankshaft, shells etc?
What about special tools - eg ring compressor, valve compressor, etc? 
Engine stand?
Will the final result be tested in a start-up?! That could be 
embarrassing.....
If so, are we guaranted the engine worked before disassembly? (might 
seem obvious but I'm thinking things like distributor internals which I 
personally always strip, clean and lube).
What about Wiring loom for things like the idlespeed and ignition 
(assuming the engine's going to be started at the end)? Exhaust? Lambda?

...all just immediate thoughts!

Martin
DMUK

kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

>One good thing that came out of todays discussion was what could be done to  
>improve the show technically.
> 
>I am looking for two teams interested on probably Saturday Morning say 8 am  
>start time to take an engine that is totally torn down and rebuild it.
> 
>The fastest team is the winner 
> 
>We will figure out a prize
> 
>I am sure we can find two engines (I have one already)
> 
>Parts would be cleaned and ready to go all it needs is a rebuild.
> 
>Is there anyone interested 
>I would think two teams of 8 and I am hoping it can go together in about 3  
>hours
>What do you think
> 
>Ken
>
>  
>






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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:22:15 -0600
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


I say have a tech session on how to remove exhaust manifold studs out 
of a head. If this is true about Houston not wanting cores back there 
should be lots of heads laying around too.

Mark V


On Jan 17, 2005, at 12:34 PM, cruznmd wrote:

>
>
>
> Ken,
>
> I think that an engine building contest would be awesome! I do think
> that proof-of-skill should be part of the contest by running the
> engines though. They make engine test stands. Couldn't we build them
> and run them on the stands?
>
> No offense to Dave and Bob as I highly value their expertise but
> once again, this is how all the "religion" gets woven into our cars.
> I get tired of hearing how such-and-such a repair should only be
> undertaken by a DMC or ASE ordained high-priest (or priestess).
>
> Blue-printing? Balancing? Porting and polishing? Those are excellent
> things to do but who says we have to do them just for this contest?
> These engines are laying all over the place in various conditions.
> Houston doesn't even want cores! We could take a couple of semi-
> functional junkers with blown headgaskets, tear them down and
> provide rebuild kits for each. Rings, bearings, timing chains,
> gaskets etc.
>
> Not to mention that this could easily double as a tech forum. A
> narrator could explain to interested observers what's going on as a
> team progresses and answer questions. A written spec sheet and list
> of events could be provided.
>
> I'm not downplaying the value of doing things right. I'm just saying
> that these engines don't have to be concours-perfect. In fact, they
> could be recycled for this event exclusively. For the record, my
> engine had blown headgaskets, and a million other things wrong. I
> tore it down and reconditioned it alone (with advice from the DML),
> down in my basement. I didn't blue print and balance but I drive it
> every day. It starts and drives as reliably as my PT Cruiser, gets
> 25-27 mpg and has 25,000 miles on it since I put it back together.
>
> I say it's a neat idea.
>
> Rich A.
> #5335
>
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, kKoncelik_at_dml_a... wrote:
>>
>> One good thing that came out of todays discussion was what could
> be done to
>> improve the show technically.
>>
>> I am looking for two teams interested on probably Saturday Morning
> say 8 am
>> start time to take an engine that is totally torn down and rebuild
> it.
>>
>> The fastest team is the winner
>>
>> We will figure out a prize
>>
>> I am sure we can find two engines (I have one already)
>>
>> Parts would be cleaned and ready to go all it needs is a rebuild.
>>
>> Is there anyone interested
>> I would think two teams of 8 and I am hoping it can go together in
> about 3
>> hours
>> What do you think
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:30:49 -0500
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


WE do plan to run the motors 
I have talked to a few of the vendors and the bigger problem is finding the electronics in a package that we can just wire up to the motors to fire it over
The engine is simple its the hook up electrically that presents the problem 
Hookup is easy just the Electronics
Jim Reeves or others any ideas 
Test stand is no problem

Ken





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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:34:07 -0800 (PST)
From: mike clemens <rmclemns_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: door trouble...


Okay, This may take a while to read and understand,
but enough of you folks asked, so I'll post the
opening procedure that worked for me with zero
damage to the car.

First, you need to open the engine compartment. 
Open up the coat hangar completely and make a small
hook in it.  From under the backside, hook the latch
to open the engine cover.

Next remove the right angle cover (plastic) that
covers the electrics in the front right of the engine
compartment.  Locate the automatic transmission plug
and tag the "LIGHT GREEN/WHITE" wire for future
reference.

Next, carefully disconnect the car battery from the
alternator, so there is no power on the car.  Tape the
cable so it cannot touch anything.  THIS IS VERY
IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF THE NEXT STEP!!

Next, jack up the car and remove the front left wheel.
Then take that same coat hanger and wiggle it around
the rubber grommet (hook side first) at the rear of
the wheel well.  After you push it in about a foot or
so, you will see it emerging in the drivers footwell. 
Keep pushing and shaping the wire so it angles over to
the drivers side window switch.  This will take
numerous tries and much getting up and down because
you can't see the wire while you feed it.  Lots of
patience is required!!

Once you have got it next to the switch, hook under
the backside of it so it will force the top (backside)
of the switch up.  This is the same as pushing the
window "down" side.  Now you are almost home.

Now, go back to the automatic transmission plug that
you thought you'd never use, if you have a manual trans.
Take the small jumper and connect the negative side of
the lawnmower battery to a metal part on the engine.
Connect the second jumper to the positive side of the
battery and touch the other end of the lead to the
(LIGHT GREEN/WHITE) wire in the plug.  Your toll window
will come down and you can open the door using the
inside handle.  You should hear the window moving.

For those of you who are wondering----the LIGHT
GREEN/WHITE  wire connects to fuse #16, out of there
it becomes WHITE/BLUE to a junction, then down to fuse
#11, out of there it is LIGHT GREEN/WHITE to another
junction and then up to the power window switch #77
and into the motor.

This worked very well for me and as I said before, it
beats the hell out of breaking a window.  If anyone
sees a flaw in this, electrically, let me know since
it has been a year since I had to do it.

Mike     Pizza Special





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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:44:00 -0500
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


yes you are included in the engine build if you want 
we will make sure stuff like the distribtor works
the valves will be done so it is just putting heads on 
but the piston rings and stuff is for you to do.

The engines are not running now but that is due to blown seals and such or stuck injectors 
they will be clean or new so you will have good parts

Engines will be totally disassembled and you would have to put them together and fired up
it will include manifolds but not crossover (due to engine mount) so once it fires you are done.

BUT
I NEED THE ELECTRONICS IN A USABLE BOX
I have the components for the most part

Ken





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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:45:57 -0500
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


Any takers on a cut away engine for us to see



The vendors have suggested a few different tech Ideas of about the same magnitude and if they can work it in then We will have that.  No promises so far but this is again your show what can we do is up to you.

Ken





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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:50:28 -0500
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: DCS 2006 Engine rebuild contest


Anyone want to do a stud removal 
I have no problem doin that
lloking for volunteers





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________________________________________________________________________


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