From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2506
Date: Saturday, March 05, 2005 7:22 PM


There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. RE: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

2. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

3. Testing a Fuel Accumulator
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

4. 1 Year Anniversary...and a message of hope!
From: "usndmc" <usndmc_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

6. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. Re: 1 Year Anniversary...and a message of hope!
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>

8. Twin turbo kits.
From: "rodrael1" <rodrael1_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: DeLorean Motor Company Opens Southeastern Regional Service and Restoration C
From: "ashtonorlan" <ashtonorlan_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "Jim Reeve" <dmc6960_at_dml_gmail.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:38:46 -0600
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please


Rick, Activate the full throttle switch to enrich the system evenly. This
activates the FV to full operation and lowers the pressure on the lower
chamber of the fuel distributor to flow more fuel to the injectors. There
also an operational difference between early fuel distributors w/out Lambda
before 1980 VS distributors after 1980. With out changing the distributor to
a non Lambda one, the switch is a easy mod.
The control pressure can also be lowered to achieve more fuel flow, but this
would be more tricky.
John Hervey
www.specialtauto.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick [mailto:rdevaux_at_dml_titan.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 5:36 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please

How does one go about tuning the K-Jet ECU for a Lambda less than
1.0?  Greg, you mentioned that the Lambda controller could be
adjusted for both best performance and emmissions (with the flip of a
switch).  I like the idea of the closed-loop system, especially at
the altitude I drive at but would also like to be able to take
advantage of engine performance modifications.  Any advice on the
procedure to get a closed-loop Lambda of 0.89 - 0.86 that could be
set back to 1.0?  There will not be a catalytic converter involved.
Thanks, Rick






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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:07:21 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



All of these "tricks" will not get you much more fuel flow. Less than
10%.  If you want or need more than that you should look to get some
other fuel system.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> 
> Rick, Activate the full throttle switch to enrich the system evenly.
This
> act Rick








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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:25:10 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Testing a Fuel Accumulator



On previous posts I offered a way to confirm a bad fuel accumulator. I
now realize it is not a 100% reliable way to confirm a defective
accumulator. I said to remove the small low pressure hose coming off
the end and see if fuel comes out of the accumulator when you run the
pump. I just did a car and although fuel does not come out the
accumulator IS bad. What happened is that bits of the deteriorated
diaphram plugged up the small ports inside the accumulator preventing
the fuel from coming out the drain. I thought I had a leaky cold start
valve, a leaky injector, a leaky primary pressure regulator, a bad
check valve, etc. I went over the whole fuel system several times
until all that was left WAS the fuel accumulator. A pressure gauge
does not tell you what part is bad, only that you have a bad part. It
appears that the most likely causes of not holding rest pressure are
in this order:

Bad fuel accumulator (change it if still origional)
Leaky fuel pump check valve (change to newer style)
Worn "O" rings in Primary Pressure Regulater (not very common)
Leaky injectors (likely if fuel system was heavily contaminated)
Leaky Cold Start Valve (ditto)
Not only did this car have the hard hot start problem, it idled badly
because the fuel pressures were not right. The moral here is if you
are still running the origional fuel accumulator it is either bad or
on borrowed time. It seems they are not meant to last 20 years. When
you have a hard hot start problem and confirm that it doesn't hold
rest pressure with a pressure gauge, replace the fuel accumulator
unless you know it was recently replaced.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757








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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:12:35 -0000
From: "usndmc" <usndmc_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: 1 Year Anniversary...and a message of hope!



Hi all,

A year ago today I flew to Albany, NY and purchased my dream car, 
#5968, and embarked on the 1200 mile maiden voyage drive back home. 
My DeLorean is my ONLY car, and in the last year I've only had to 
bum a ride to work from a friend once. She's been almost as 
dependable as a new car, keeping me mobile for 1 year and almost 
12,000 miles--with about 7 "cross-country" drives ranging from 4 to 
18 hours each way. I've of course had my share of problems, but I've 
been able to work around them and the car has stayed operational. 

There's 2 reasons I'm posting this message. One is to say thank you 
to all the experts on this list without who's technical knowledge 
and advice I would NEVER have made it through the last year. So, 
thank you David Teitlebaum, Bill Robertson, John Hervey, Toby 
Peterson, and everyone else out there, whose names would take too 
long to list obviously, that I've collected wisdom from while 
lurking!

The second reason is that a few weeks ago I was catching up on old 
messages and came across message #47877 from Tom Porter in Maine. 
Basically he says that he's been saving for a D for 10 years and is 
now at the point where he could purchase one, but is having second 
thoughts because of driveability, repair costs, and general 
sensibility. His message was posted almost 2 months ago, so this 
reply is more for all the other Tom Porters out there in lurking.

In replies to that posting, people have already hit on the fact that 
DeLoreans can be reliable daily drivers, as mine is a prime example. 
Basically, if you're looking to go the smart route, you should 
definitely not buy a D as your first or only car. You should learn 
more about them, lurk on the list for a while, budget extra cash for 
repairs, and have a newer daily driver car for when the D can't get 
you around. That is definitely the smart way.

I, however, and I'm sure there are others out there like me, 
generally in life prefer the cavalier and somewhat foolish route, as 
I find it more fun. By being a member of this list you already have 
done more prepwork and learned more about DeLorean repair and 
technical knowledge than I had before I bought the car. I've 
definitely had my share of problems in the past year but with the 
help of the list and the willingness to put time and effort into the 
car I've gotten through them all. Basically mine is a slow and 
ongoing project, updating the car here and there and replacing what 
needs to be replaced to stay on the road and as budget permits. It 
is very possible, you just need to be okay with the fact that you 
won't be able to go crazy on the car and fix everything all at once 
and have a mint condition show car. Sure, I get jealous when I read 
these posts about people doing the frame-off restorations and 
everything--I would love to take my car completely apart for a few 
months and go over EVERYTHING. But I like owning and driving the car 
now, and putting off doing stuff like that for a handful of years, 
more than not having one at all for years to come and then being 
able to buy one and do that right away. You just have to be 
comfortable pacing yourself.

Basically there is no right or wrong answer, it all boils down to 
what type of person you are and what your goal with the car is. If 
you're the type of person that needs to have your fears assuaged or 
likes to do things the sensible way, then by God wait and do it the 
sensible way! For those of you that embrace the young and foolish 
attitude at any age and when faced with situations like this always 
figure (like Doc Brown) "What the hell?", then go for it!

The only thing I have left to say is, I love living the dream!!
Dave
#5968








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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:00:27 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Rick" <rdevaux_at_dml_t...> wrote 
> 
> How does one go about tuning the K-Jet ECU for a Lambda less than 
> 1.0?  Greg, you mentioned that the Lambda controller could be 
> adjusted for both best performance and emmissions (with the flip of
a switch).  

Good choice. Those who tout open loop or carburation claim their cars
run great but they're going by the seat of their pants. If they drove
around with some metrology (a gas analyzer, wide band O2S, or even a
cheap A/F meter running in open loop) they'd soon see how poorly the
basic K Jet (or worse, a carb) meters fuel. And every time the mixture
deviates outside a narrow range they're losing performance. Not to
mention the pollution and wasted fuel. Such setups are anachronisims
of the automotive world best reserved for those unwilling or unable to
learn the very real benefits from not using them.

There are several ways to do what you want. You can shift the loop
hydraulically via control pressure or electronically through the
lambda controller. You can either dither the O2 signal or change the
internal controller setpoint. Or you can use something like the
Innovate LM-1 to drive the controller. You'll need a wide band O2
sensor, about $80. Even a narrow band heated O2S is a good upgrade for
a D, though not for performance reasons.

I can alter the lambda controller to do pretty much anything you like,
even electronically adjust mixture on the fly, but if you go that far
you'll need to know how not to abuse it. Depending on what mods you do
you'll likely also have to alter ING timing, both the curve and total
advance. Street cars always have a curve that brings in max advance
too late for performance and the B28 is no exception. At least it
usually uses full manifold source for vacuum advance, ported advance
is bad news.

I suggest you contact me off list when you know exactly what mods
you'll be doing and we'll go from there. Frankly, if you're going to
do serious power mods I'd suggest abandoning the K Jet and going with
EFI. Something like the MegasSquirt would dod the job.


John Hervey wrote:

>Activate the full throttle switch to enrich the system evenly. This
activates the FV to full operation and lowers the pressure on the
lower chamber of the fuel distributor to flow more fuel to the
injectors.<

The problem with that approach is it's not closed loop. It simply
outputs a fixed duty cycle and involves no feedback.  Btw, doing what
you suggest does not set the FV to "full" operation, it sets it to a
midpoint fixed dwell of 55 degrees. There are other inputs on the
lambda controller that can set both a nearly 100% or nearly 0% duty
cycle. These inputs are not used on the Deloeran but are there and can
be manipulated in many ways. Pulling them low still results in a fixed
duty cycle but they can be PWM for feedback purposes. 

>The control pressure can also be lowered to achieve more fuel flow,
but this would be more tricky.<

True but it's not all that tricky. I've done it that way but it's not
the most elegant approach because it involves adding another control
loop, same as employing the unused lambda inputs mentioned above. Plus
there is unacceptable hysterisis doing it by control pressure. I've
found doing it through the lambda controller is much easier and
retains normal operation of the O2S loop, only shifted to a richer
setpoint.








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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:37:06 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Rick" <rdevaux_at_dml_t...> wrote:
> 
> 
> How does one go about tuning the K-Jet ECU for a Lambda less than 
> 1.0? <


I should mention that shifting your mixture from stoich to best power
isn't going to get you much. It'll give you a bit more power but lower
fuel ecomony and higher emissions. Without other mods it may not be
worth the hassle. Once you get past that you'll need to increase
volumetric efficiency and that means flowling more air through the
engine or upping the compression ratio, ect, with fuel to match. 

At some point you'll run into the metering limitations of the K Jet.
You can cheat a bit by increasing fuel pressure, adding bigger lines,
injectors, even a higher flow FV to control it all. But you'll
eventually run into the limitations of the mixture distributor. Plus
you'll be throwing all this effort at a system that isn't very good at
what it does to begin with. The K Jet is pretty "stupid" in the sense
it doesn't know anything about other engine variables that are
important for tight mixture control.

Keep in mind a best power mixture isn't the holy grail anyway. My
daily driver is a modified turbo car that makes nearly 500 RWHP and it
easily passes emissions because it runs at stoich, not best power. Not
that mixture control isn't important, when running loads of boost an
engine better have a good metering system to control mixture or it'll
go boom. My point is mixture alone isn't what puts power to the ground
so don't become too focused on a lambda less than 1.










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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:49:50 -0000
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 1 Year Anniversary...and a message of hope!



Have you ever considered buying a $500 beater to drive daily? Wear & 
tear adds up fast on these cars, not so much mechanically, but a lot 
more cosmetically. Plus it would help speed up the repairs.

Just a thought to help "save the dream"

But I do admire the few of you who drive their Deloreans everyday 
regardless of the elements. You're braver than me.

Later,

Joe OBrien





--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "usndmc" <usndmc_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> A year ago today I flew to Albany, NY and purchased my dream car, 
> #5968, and embarked on the 1200 mile maiden voyage drive back 
home. 
> My DeLorean is my ONLY car, and in the last year I've only had to 
> bum a ride to work from a friend once. She's been almost as 
> dependable as a new car, keeping me mobile for 1 year and almost 
> 12,000 miles--with about 7 "cross-country" drives ranging from 4 
to 
> 18 hours each way. I've of course had my share of problems, but 
I've 
> been able to work around them and the car has stayed operational. 
> 
> There's 2 reasons I'm posting this message. One is to say thank 
you 
> to all the experts on this list without who's technical knowledge 
> and advice I would NEVER have made it through the last year. So, 
> thank you David Teitlebaum, Bill Robertson, John Hervey, Toby 
> Peterson, and everyone else out there, whose names would take too 
> long to list obviously, that I've collected wisdom from while 
> lurking!
> 
> The second reason is that a few weeks ago I was catching up on old 
> messages and came across message #47877 from Tom Porter in Maine. 
> Basically he says that he's been saving for a D for 10 years and 
is 
> now at the point where he could purchase one, but is having second 
> thoughts because of driveability, repair costs, and general 
> sensibility. His message was posted almost 2 months ago, so this 
> reply is more for all the other Tom Porters out there in lurking.
> 
> In replies to that posting, people have already hit on the fact 
that 
> DeLoreans can be reliable daily drivers, as mine is a prime 
example. 
> Basically, if you're looking to go the smart route, you should 
> definitely not buy a D as your first or only car. You should learn 
> more about them, lurk on the list for a while, budget extra cash 
for 
> repairs, and have a newer daily driver car for when the D can't 
get 
> you around. That is definitely the smart way.
> 
> I, however, and I'm sure there are others out there like me, 
> generally in life prefer the cavalier and somewhat foolish route, 
as 
> I find it more fun. By being a member of this list you already 
have 
> done more prepwork and learned more about DeLorean repair and 
> technical knowledge than I had before I bought the car. I've 
> definitely had my share of problems in the past year but with the 
> help of the list and the willingness to put time and effort into 
the 
> car I've gotten through them all. Basically mine is a slow and 
> ongoing project, updating the car here and there and replacing 
what 
> needs to be replaced to stay on the road and as budget permits. It 
> is very possible, you just need to be okay with the fact that you 
> won't be able to go crazy on the car and fix everything all at 
once 
> and have a mint condition show car. Sure, I get jealous when I 
read 
> these posts about people doing the frame-off restorations and 
> everything--I would love to take my car completely apart for a few 
> months and go over EVERYTHING. But I like owning and driving the 
car 
> now, and putting off doing stuff like that for a handful of years, 
> more than not having one at all for years to come and then being 
> able to buy one and do that right away. You just have to be 
> comfortable pacing yourself.
> 
> Basically there is no right or wrong answer, it all boils down to 
> what type of person you are and what your goal with the car is. If 
> you're the type of person that needs to have your fears assuaged 
or 
> likes to do things the sensible way, then by God wait and do it 
the 
> sensible way! For those of you that embrace the young and foolish 
> attitude at any age and when faced with situations like this 
always 
> figure (like Doc Brown) "What the hell?", then go for it!
> 
> The only thing I have left to say is, I love living the dream!!
> Dave
> #5968








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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:57:22 -0000
From: "rodrael1" <rodrael1_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Twin turbo kits.



Hi all....   What are the best sources for twin turbo kits and the 
thoughts about that?

Also to mr. one year anniversary...  kudos to you...   My D is my 
2nd car as I have a 2003 Chevy Silverado, but drive the D daily, my 
mechanic who is a D specialist advises this as the best way to keep 
the car performing top notch....   I would recommend this to all,  I 
bought my D fairly recently and it was only driven one every 2 
months or thereabouts, since I have had it and driven daily followed 
by a 900 mile trip home it has responded better and better,  It is 
truly "much happier"

Rodney
#3300








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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:41:49 -0000
From: "ashtonorlan" <ashtonorlan_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Motor Company Opens Southeastern Regional Service and Restoration C



there are at least 15 owners that I know of in the Twin Cities area 
in Minnesota. There is NOTHING here for the delorean. the nearest in 
CALI. NY is out of question, thats 20 + hours away..come on DMCH 
Open one in MN for all us North West people. (Chicago is only 5 
housr from here, thats a big market)




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "gzapf" <x86Daddy_at_dml_m...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Do Memphis next!  It's right between Houston and Bauerle, a 10 hour
> drive from either.  :-)  </wishful thinking on my part>
> 
> --Greg
> #2894








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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:16:52 -0000
From: "Jim Reeve" <dmc6960_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
>The problem with that approach is it's not closed loop. It simply
>outputs a fixed duty cycle and involves no feedback. Btw, doing what
>you suggest does not set the FV to "full" operation, it sets it to a
>midpoint fixed dwell of 55 degrees. There are other inputs on the
>lambda controller that can set both a nearly 100% or nearly 0% duty
>cycle. These inputs are not used on the Deloeran but are there and can
>be manipulated in many ways. Pulling them low still results in a fixed
>duty cycle but they can be PWM for feedback purposes.

Care to elaborate on this a bit more for the curious minded?

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC6960








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